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Challenge to atheists and evolutionists to find 3 things *Challenge is now open to all*
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[quote:Jesus is also the Father God:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMxNzUzX0IwQzZGMTQz] [quote:Anonymous Coward 78225484:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMxMjg0XzlEQzdEODQ2] [quote:Jesus is also the Father God:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMxMDAyX0JGRjkyMzE1] [quote:Anonymous Coward 78225484:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwOTIyXzNBQTIxRDdE] [quote:Jesus is also the Father God:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwODg1XzVGRUIwQTYz] [quote:Anonymous Coward 78225484:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwODUzXzMyNkQxMUI=] [quote:Jesus is also the Father God:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwODEyXzEwNEQyNDg5] [quote:Anonymous Coward 78225484:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwNzY3XzI0M0EwMUZD] [quote:Jesus is also the Father God:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwNzA5Xzk1RDg4QjdE] [quote:Anonymous Coward 78225484:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwNjg4XzJCQzQ1QkQ0] [quote:Jesus is also the Father God:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwNTY5X0MwMDZGODk1] [quote:Anonymous Coward 78225484:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwNDM2XzJDMEM3Qjc2] [quote:Jesus is also the Father God:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwMjM5X0I4M0UxQTU1] [quote:Anonymous Coward 78225484:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwMTY2XzU3QjA0REQ4] [quote:Jesus is also the Father God:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwMTQ2XzY1ODYyRjVB] [quote:Anonymous Coward 78225484:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwMTA2XzFFQUVBNUU=] [quote:Jesus is also the Father God:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwMDc3XzM4NkUyNjM4] [quote:Anonymous Coward 78225484:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwMDYzXzI2MThEMzYw] [quote:Jesus is also the Father God:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDMwMDEyXzFFNUU3NTMx] [quote:Anonymous Coward 78225484:MV80MjAyMzU5Xzc2NDI5OTQ1X0IyRjQ0OTYy] [quote:Jesus is also the Father God:MV80MjAyMzU5XzY2QzE5RjY5] Find evidence of something without purpose [/quote] The freckle on my nuts. [quote:Jesus is also the Father God:MV80MjAyMzU5XzY2QzE5RjY5] Find something that is random (chaos) [/quote] A dice roll. [quote:Jesus is also the Father God:MV80MjAyMzU5XzY2QzE5RjY5] Find evidence of something happening by chance [/quote] Me getting a full house in poker. [quote:Jesus is also the Father God:MV80MjAyMzU5XzY2QzE5RjY5] The universe could not have come into existence by random chance and there not be evidence of anything else random, by chance, and/or without purpose. Everything is bound by the laws of physics and could be understood mathematically. Through cause and effect everything is logical and makes sense even if we don't have all the information yet. What signs of a randomly created universe should look like: [youtube]https://youtube.com/watch?v=UIUIO1ImtJo[/youtube] [youtube]https://youtube.com/watch?v=zjbtZ4NgtdA[/youtube] [/quote] Most atheists I know don't think EVERYTHING is random. They accept that there are natural laws that govern the universe. They just aren't convinced that there's an omnipotent, omniscient being that wants us to cut our foreskins off and sacrifice goats. You have evidence for this? [/quote] If we could look at the history of your nuts we could certainly understand why the freckle(s) appeared there. I don't feel like researching why freckles are, but I believe scientists probably have a good enough explanation that you would accept. If we could setup high speed cameras we could use mathematical algorithms to determine the trajectory of the bounces and spins of dice to understand clearly why the numbers they landed on were logical. It could be predicted in fact. If we could look at the history of the card deck and knew where all the cards are and see that a dealer put so much pressure on the deck when shuffling and how fast causing the cards to align in the deck where they were and that because someone else asked for a card and is why you didn't get a certain other card but got the cards you got we could see that it makes sense and is logical why you got a full house. We don't need to know the intimate history of all things in order to understand there is a reason for everything which rejects chance and randomness as actual properties of creation as opposed to being only perspectives of our ignorance. [/quote] I'm talking about that specific freckle. What's its purpose? So you're saying that every single thing that occurs is deterministic. Does God decide every single dice roll, coin toss and every poker hand? [/quote] What's the reason for freckles. I heard that they are places where the body stores toxins. Find out what scientists have found about freckles and apply the reason to it on your balls. I believe everything is God's doing except our choice to go against his will. Since we have free will, God didn't determine what the dice roll outcome would be, you did, but by his laws of physics. Had you not rolled them then his laws would not be applied to them in that sense of their determined outcome. Obey God and live. That is a determined outcome. Disobey God and die the double death. That also is a determined outcome. [/quote] So God intentionally placed the freckle there for a purpose... but you don't know what it is. Evidence please. I don't determine what the dice roll is. That's absurd. If God doesn't determine what it is, and it's just a product of natural laws interacting without intelligent intervention, then that makes it random. That's what people mean when they say random. Meiosis is the process whereby genes are shuffled during reproduction. This is why siblings look different to each other. Because there appears to be no intended outcome, and the outcome can not be predicted, we call this random. [/quote] You want evidence that I currently don't know the purpose of freckles? Here is one actually true purpose for that freckle.. to be talking and talked about right here right now. You cannot deny that fact in truth. The force you apply to the die and how it rolls off your hand and at what angles and by what vectors of physical laws and what it hits and how, things I'm not an expert in, determine the outcome. You affected the die, so your input is factored into the equation. Natural laws ARE intelligent intervention. For reference of the contrary see the videos in the op for an example. There's no logical reason a spaceship would turn into a yarn ball, if random chaos truly existed. Just because you, we, I don't understand something doesn't make it random. "Random" is only a matter of perspective but not an actual truth of reality. [/quote] You're saying God placed the freckle there so that this conversation could happen? So you know the mind of God? I've never spoken to a prophet before. Forget the freckle. go outside and find a naturally occuring hole in the ground. What's its purpose? You can't possibly demonstrate that it has one, all you can do is assert that you know God put it there. Without evidence. It's kind of arrogant. I don't believe in 'random chaos' as you describe it. And neither do practically all atheists. Atheists believe in natural laws... they just don't claim to know that it was created by Yahweh, or Zeus or any of the other gods humans have worshiped. Are you claiming that you do know? How? [/quote] Yes. God placed it there to be talked about now, at the very least of its purpose. That is why it's impossible to name something without purpose, even the hole in the ground. If not to talk about then to observe. Who's denying that there is a reason it is there? Not me. Not you. So the hole in the ground that is stumbled upon "randomly" wasn't randomly stumbled upon neither does it exist for and because of no reason, and neither does the universe itself. I can comprehend a little of the mind of God, he is not hiding from me or anyone. Of course all that is currently is an infinitesimal fraction of infinite possibility. I don't want to be God, it seems too hard and too boring. I prefer being me, simple and ignorant of many things. You do believe in random chaos if and because you assert that some things have no purpose and are illogically existent. I do know that the universe was created by a supreme intelligent power because I have talked with it and I know him and he is not a liar. [/quote] All you have done is presuppose that everything that exists has a purpose. You have no evidence of that. You say everything has a purpose. Someone else says everything doesn't have a purpose. Why should I believe you? No, I never said anything is 'illogicaly existent.' You're misrepresenting me. I -like most normal people- use the word random to describe a lottery or a dice roll, because the outcome is not intelligently determined, nor determined by predictable circumstances. I accept that natural laws exist. Science is only possible because the universe behaves in a predictable manner. You don't know what I or God believes. I don't believe in your concept of random chaos. I see no reason to think that a hole in the ground, or an oil stain on the road was placed there for a purpose. You can provide no reason to believe that it was. Likewise, atheists see no reason to presuppose that Yahweh exists. [/quote] You can't name 1 thing without a purpose, so my point stands. I'm not here to convince you of anything, that's not my job. Name 1 thing without purpose. If you can, you only think you can, in the same way that you think outcomes are not intelligently determined by predictable circumstances. It's a weak perception and assertion. Your own reasoning is lacking logic. The oil stain on the road exists because a car leaked oil. That's cause and effect. Its purpose is obeying the laws of physics which keep everything in order thereby keeping the universe predictable instead of there being random chaos. How many more purposes do you want me to give? Isn't 2 enough? [/quote] My reasoning is lacking logic? You just said that Yahweh, an omnipotent being, that split the red sea and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, put a freckle on my nuts so that we could have this conversation. If I lack logic, you're a raving lunatic. You're just playing a word game. Having a cause and having a purpose are not the same thing. The oil stain was not put there for a purpose. I can give it a purpose by talking about it, or turning it into art, sure. I've argued with a lot of theists, but this is some of the most outrageous sophistry I've ever heard. [/quote] I didn't say having a cause and having a purpose were the same thing. So what was your question? [/quote] How do you that your specific god exists, and how do you know that everything that exists was created for a purpose? [/quote] I know everything exists for a purpose because I can deduce a purpose for anything, and it is apparent without knowing the laws of physics that all things are bound to order. My God Jesus Christ proved and proves himself to be the God who claimed to be the cause of creation. [/quote] I asked how you know. Saying 'it is' is not a reason. And you're criticizing my logic? Just because you deduce a purpose doesn't mean it was created for that reason. You're essentially claiming to be infallible. [/quote] Disprove that the purpose of anything named is to be named and talked about. Start with something. I have a feeling you debate philosophy at bars. [/quote] You just committed a logical fallacy called 'shifting the burden of proof.' I'll gladly admit I can't disprove that. I also can't disprove that bigfoot is eating spaghetti on the dark side of the moon. Does that mean it's true? No. If you're claiming it is true, then it's your burden to prove it. Without evidence either way, you have no logical justification to accept that everything was made for a purpose. [/quote] I asked you to find evidence of 3 things. You did, but now say you can't and act like you won't. I challenged you, you did not challenge me. The burden of proof is on you. I already presuppose everything to have a purpose, assert nothing is truly random, and nothing happens by chance, not even the existence of the universe. If you disagree, show some evidence. I cannot find [u]evidence[/u] to disprove my presuppositions, maybe you can. Not sure how you how thought you could turn my challenge against me, oh wait, your reasoning is still illogical, NOW that still makes sense. [/quote] Ok, I see the game you're playing. Beg the question/shift the burden of proof. I have no reason to think that every oil stain is placed there intentionally by God for a purpose. But I can't disprove that. You can't prove it has a purpose, you can't disprove that it has no purpose. But you presuppose it. Just because. In this scenario, one of us believes something without a reason, and it's not me. I can show you things that are random by the dictionary definition, or the product of chance, but I will agree that the outcome is determined by natural laws and a chain of cause and effect. Some Quantum phenomena does appear to be truly 'random', without any detectable cause, but it's possible there are causes outside of human perception. Congratulations. I can never answer your challenge to your satisfaction. Even if something truly was created without a purpose, and I showed it to you, I could never disprove your presupposition. This is what scientists call an unjustifiable hypothesis. You're still not one step closer to providing evidence for your god. [/quote] I challenged you, but thanks for the nice post. I proved every oil stain has a purpose by declaring it is to be talked about here and now. A purpose does not have to be tangible. Now, am I being reasonable or unreasonable? I don't believe anything without reason, why say that I do? It's not about answering my challenge to my satisfaction. Truth is truth and logical people should come to the same conclusion, that talking about something automatically, at the least, is it's apparent purpose. And even if no one existed everything would still have purpose. Even in God where infiniteness exists I believe this, everything has purpose. I'm sorry that you saw this challenge as a challenge to my "ego" or "arrogance" or "superiority". How different would you feel if I challenged you to solve a complex math problem? Would you think I was being arrogant? Not everything is a competition. Chill out and exercise your brain by thinking deeper about things. If it hurts your brain then know that I am not the one hurting your brain. Lighten up. I have proof of God. In fact, this thread is me sharing evidence of my God. Although you have found it you don't recognize it, like finding a bone not knowing what it is or what it goes to or if it goes to a skeleton then which part. Seek evidence of God. When you find enough then theorize the logical conclusion and accept it as truth, like evolutionary theorists and scientists do, without proof. They find comfort in accepting what cannot ever be proven as truth. [/quote]
Original Message
Find evidence of something without purpose
Find something that is random (chaos)
Find evidence of something happening by chance
The universe could not have come into existence by random chance and there not be evidence of anything else random, by chance, and/or without purpose.
Everything is bound by the laws of physics and could be understood mathematically. Through cause and effect everything is logical and makes sense even if we don't have all the information yet.
What signs of a randomly created universe should look like:
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