Godlike Productions - Discussion Forum
Users Online Now: 968 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 67,603
Pageviews Today: 126,826Threads Today: 54Posts Today: 887
02:18 AM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First

 
Anonymous Coward
04/25/2005 12:23 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First

Message: And these 2 things have not occured as of tonight.

2 Th 2:3-4

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So my question is this... Do you believe that 2 Thesolonians is talking about the rapture, or is it talking about the 2nd Coming ??? Thats the question.
Replies:
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
If by falling away it means apostacy, I think the world has done that now. The man of sin is revealed by the fact that he brokers the 7 year peace treaty. That also starts the tribulation. Before the tribulation comes the rapture.

The problem with the Thessalonians is that someone had told them they had missed the rapture and were in the tribulation. Paulīs arguement was that they could not be in the tribulation since the man of sin had not been revealed. Therefore, they also had not missed the rapture. The man of sin cannot be revealed until the restrainer is taken out of the way. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit, who is in US. Taking the Holy Spirit out of the way means taking us out also.

The reverse of these signs, namely that they happen, is a BIG sign that the world is in the tribulation, and whoever is here has been left behind.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
"THE PROMISE OF THE RAPTURE" by Bernard E. Northrup Th.D. at [link to www.ldolphin.org] He goes into detail regarding that verse at the end of the long article (112k).

His conclusion:

īOne of the great tragedies of Bible translation is the mistake made by the English Catholic translators when they translated hee apostosia by "apostasy." That error has been followed by scores of other translators in the centuries that have followed. That has resulted in the obscuring of Paulīs very precise explanation of the time when the rapture would take place has resulted in tragic confusion among those who, contrary to Paulīs explicit statement, want to expect the rapture at mid-tribulation or at the end of the tribulation. Of course that in turn has resulted in a continually growing host of confused believers who no longer live their lives in the constant expectation of Christīs return in the air at any moment for the Church. Indeed, the translation of hee apostosia in such a way that it refers only to rising religious apostasy has left multitudes of believers open to that confusion which denies the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. While several texts of Scripture do teach that the Church will degenerate in its faith and practice in the latter days, Second Thessalonians 2:3 is in a context which has nothing to do with religious apostasy. The article that accompanies apostosia in that text, ignored in many translations, is the key. This article of previous reference directly links "the departure" in that verse with the previous mention of the departure of the Church in "our up-gathering-together." It leaves no doubt whatsoever that the departure of the Church must precede the events which start the Day of the Lord, an extended period which will begin with the tribulation, the time of Jacobīs troubles.ī

I hope this helps!
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
The 1611 translaters of the KJV were in the midst of "REFORMATION DOCTRINE" which lacked understanding of the Pre-Tribulation resurrection/rapture of the Church, as the "REFORM" DENOMINATION EVEN STILL DOES TODAY...i.e. "The Bible Answer Man" WHO IS A PERTERIST!!! We need to remember this backdrop.

Secondly, in the KJV, there is a mis-translation of in 2 Thess 2:2. The KJV renders the following:

1: "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that "THE DAY OF CHRIST" is at hand.

In most KJVs...there is a margin note that the Authorized Version had "THE DAY OF THE LORD" is at hand....NOT, "THE DAY OF CHRIST" is at hand. Most ALL other versions have "THE DAY OF THE LORD" is at hand....which is absolutely the correct translation...as Paul was CLEARLY talking about, from verse 1, the RESURRECTION/RAPTURE of the Church which is "THE DAY OF CHRIST" (JESUS), and the Thessalonika church in 1 Thessalonians thought THEY HAD MISSED THE RAPTURE AND ALREADY WERE IN THE īDAY OF THE LORDī i.e. the Tribulation !

According to the clear teaching of theWord, the "DAY OF THE LORD" cannot come until AFTER the CLOSE of the Church Age, at the Resurrection/Rapture of the true Church.

The Apostle Paul was trying to give LAST MINUTE, RELEVANT CLUES to the END-TIME Church in this text! Spiritual Apostasy BEGAN in the Church IN THE FIRST CENTURY and continued throughout the Church Age UNTIL NOW.....so obviously he had something DIFFERENT in mind...regarding the CLOSING YEARS/MONTHS/DAYS/HOURS of the N.T. Church !

Dr. Kenneth Wuest was an renouned N.T. Greek scholar who headed up the N.T. Greek department at Moody Bible Institute during the late l940s thru early l960īs, and is the author of many fine study books on N.T. Biblical Greek.

He points out in his "Word Studies in the New Testament Greek, that in verse 3:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY shall not come, except there come A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;...."

the words..."that day" clearly refers to "THE DAY OF THE LORDī in verse two...

and

the Greek word for "falling away"....Strongīs # 646,
"Apostacia" comes from a root word: "APHISTEMI" which is Strongīs # 868: please note its definitions:

Verb

Definition
to make stand off, CAUSE TO WITHDRAW, TO REMOVE
to excite to revolt
TO STAND OFF, to stand aloof
TO GO AWAY, TO DEPART FROM ANYONE
to desert, WITHDRAW FROM ONE
to fall away, become faithless
to shun, FLEE FROM
to cease to vex one
TO WITHDRAW ONEīS SELF FROM, to fall away
to keep oneīs self from, ABSENT ONEīS SELF FROM

Translated Words
KJV (15) - depart, 10; DEPART FROM, 1; DRAW AWAY, 1; fall away, 1; refrain, 1; WITHDRAW SELF, 1;

As shown: Dr. Wuest points out that in at least 13 separate times in the N.T...this word..."falling away" is used as the verb "TO DEPART" as in "DEPARTING FROM ONE PLACE TO ANOTHER PLACE" !!

I personally have seen a picture of a "wood carving" from a page out of the Textus Receptus that shows the KJV words "falling away" in verse 3...as "THE DEPARTYNG"..... by the old English spelling, clearly pointing to "the action as to the departing out of" the church...i.e. RAPTURE!

This is CLEARLY what Paul was teaching here...in the overview of both his books of Thessalonians..and the teaching in all his other Epistles. It is a shame that the KJ translators...had such a cloudy understanding of this doctrine in chief...as also...they did not even capitalize the "He" when referring to the Holy Spirit as the Restrainer....which also has caused so much further confusion. Some have tried to teach that the Church, itself, is the restrainer...which is such poor exegesis...as in the letter to the Church of Philadelphia...Jesus Himself said ...they would "only have a LITTLE power" ! Also...it is clear from all that is written in the N.T. about the Church..."SHE" IS ALWAYS REFERRED TO BY THE "FEMININE" pronoun...NEVER THE MASCULINE!

In conclusion...there can certainly be a "layered meaning" to the words..."FALLING AWAY FIRST"....but true understanding MUST come from studying out the meanings of the word itself and even more importantly, Paulīs point of view from his UNDERLYING CORE BELIEF AND CLEAR TEACHING THAT THE N.T. CHURCH MUST INDEED, BE REMOVED FROM THE EARTH BEFORE ......THE TRUE IDENTITY OF THE A/C CAN BE REVEALED...(which I personally believe does not take place UNTIL the 1290th day...when he sets up THE ABDOMINATION THAT DESOLATES...and then causes all men to worship him).
zangtang
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
i thought it is a given that the īraptureī is an 18th century invention and nothing of its ilk is actually related in the bible?
GraftedPromise
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
Types in the Tanah ...
Enoch "taken" as walking with YHVH (before flood), Elijah "taken" by firey chariot of Heaven(nation of Israel existed), and Lot "pulled-out" of city because YHVH wouldnīt destroy the righteous with the wicked.

"Rapture" is a type of these events.
Dee
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
No actually it is not a given.. It is only thought to be a false theology by some.

It is confirmed in the bible in many places.

I know when I went through Perry Stones teaching series on the rapture and I was very amazed
at how much and how often the rapture truly is mentioned in the Bible.

He has an eight hour study called, "The Rapture Revelation" which clearly shows that there is such as thing as a rapture.

Unmistakeable and undeniable and still in our future.
Dr Dre
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
You got that straight zangtang. The "Rapture" was cobbled together from unrelated portions of the Bible by a 18th century religious freak named John Nelson Darby. Funny how the religious right has fallen for this crap hook,line and sinker. Unfunny is that the current President of the USA is one of the freakazoids that believes in this stuff. Anyone worried this may color his decision making process. IE starting a nuke war cause the "rapture" is coming anyway?
St Benedict´s Disciple
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
well done Dr. Dre for pointing to John Nelson Darby.

You have saved me a great deal of typing!
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
Whats all this concerning??

What context is being discussed??







2 Thessalonians 2

1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him,




The Rapture
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
"The expression īthe day of our Lord Jesus Christ,ī includes our Saviorīs appearing in the air for His church, just before the coming of the Lordīs Day . . (1 Cor 1:7), blessing His children at the rapture.
"Phil 1:10; 2:16" . .

Blessed is the Word~~ īThe day of Christī in all six references in the N.T. is about blessing the Church . .

. . . in contrast, īthe day of the Lord speaks of judgment upon unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, The Lion of Judah cleansing the earth for His millennial reign:

. . referring to THE DAY OF THE LORD


"Blow a trumpet in Zion,
And sound an alarm on My [Godīs] holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
For the day of the Lord is coming;
Surely it is near,

a day of darkness and gloom,

a day of clouds and blackness.

Like dawn spreading across the mountains

a large and mighty army comes,

such as never was of old

nor ever will be in ages to come." . . Joel 2:1-2:

comparatively, Phil. 1:6 is very different relating to the DAY OF CHRIST . . . halleluiah . . .

"Being confident of this, that He Who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until THE DAY OF CHRIST JESUS" . .

and, too . . in Phil 2:16:

"As you hold out the word of life - in order that I may boast on THE DAY OF CHRIST that I did not run or labor for nothing."

and . . 2 Tim 4:8: . . Paul speaks . . "Now there is in store for me, the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day [the day of Christ] - and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for [loved] His appearing." . . .

. . . What a blessed hopeful Word . .
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
please ... provide chapter and verse where the word "rapture" is mentioned in the Bible...

helllllllooooooooooooo

wakie wakie... this is a man made event...that will not happen...

the twinkleing of an eye event you are confusing it with is DEATH...when the immortal soul is released from the body.

death is an illusion
so is "rapture"
DanG
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
TOTAL
cowpoop
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
harpazo is the greek word from which we get "rapture". it is literally translated as
"to snatch away" like a thief or pickpocket. behold i come as a thief in the night.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
please ... provide chapter and verse where the word "bible" is mentioned in the Bible...

helllllllooooooooooooo


Rapture simply means to be (caught up)

example:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18


16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
1 Thessalonians 4


13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

harpazo is "caught up"

notice this is not the last resurrection, or great white throne judgement, as only those who sleep in jesus, and those christians who are alive, are caught up.
RF
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
Now understand the entire context. In I thesselonians Paul wrote to diligently wait for the gathering at the end of his letter.


Because of the persecution facing the church in those days, the church in thesselonica feared that the last days were upon them and the war against the christians had begun. Paul knew it was now necessary to write a second letter, reassuring them that the end times had not come yet. He did this by explaining that the man of lawlessness must be revealed first and there must be a falling away from the faith.


In present day there will be a great falling away from the faith - when the tribulation begins and the rapture does not occur. How many christians, who believe in a pre-trib rapture - will suddenly stop believing EVERYTHING they have been taught and turn from the Bible. 99% of the people at my church believe in a pre-trib rapture. Wonīt they be upset when the tribulation comes and theyīre still here.
end times
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
since the rapture is not biblically based except by suppositions and symbolism i would say they are talking about the Day of the LORD
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
goodness! none are so blind, as those who refuse to see.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
I supposed its clearly and repeatedly described and talked about in the bible. The word that means falling away, I have seen different translations saying what the "original" is and how it is tranlated. I am convinced the rapture preceeds AC showing up AND that it is about to occur. Even if you donīt believe in pretrib rapture, if you are a genuine Christian, you will be pleasantly surprised at being removed from this filthy place. Get ready, here it comes!chorus
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
the doctrine of harpazo is really not in question. we WILL be caught up. the only question is on the timing. pre, mid, or post trib. that is the question. i myself am pan-trib. with God, itīll all pan out. iīm not worried about it. no Christian should be. live today.
RF
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
I suppose when the beast from the sea makes war against the saints and those that hold to the testimony of Jesus, he is making war against the non-believers who believe in the testimony of Jesus. Or as many in my church believe, the christians who accept christ after the rapture, once the whole world is handed over to sin.


Read the parable of the weeds and the wheat, in the book of Mathew, to discover what Jesus says about the rapture.
AC
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
Newsflash...

The rapture has already come and gone. The real GWB has departed and a clone has taken his place.
HIS Cassie
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
Some will escape, note that verse 36 says:

pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,


Luke 21:20-36
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Menīs hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
St Benedict´s Disciple
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
If there is a pre tribulation rapture, who is left to be perscuted by the antichrist?!?!?

How would people reject this mark of the beast if they have all been raptured?

There is no PRE tribulation rapture. We must all pick up our cross and follow Christ...some to our death.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
-------------------------------------------------------------​-------------------
16 Proofs of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture


Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesnīt mention a resurrection.


The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isnīt it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isnīt any mention here. Donīt you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isnīt mentioned because it doesnīt happen at the second coming.

Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesnīt mention a resurrection.


This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.


In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.

In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."

Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day


Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we canīt know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)


The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe Johnīs call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.

Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)


A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.

Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.


After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldnīt receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.

Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)


The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.

Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)


Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.

Proof #10: Angels donīt resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.


When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it canīt be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.

Proof #11: Both the wicked and the righteous canīt be taken first.


First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.

Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.


When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.

Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).


Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.

Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.


In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.

Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46)

If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.

Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?

If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium (See "Who will populate the Millennium?" Bible Study).
Amber Optics
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
All God has to do is take everyone during some huge catastrophy so everyone assumes the missing people died in the event, and nobody questions where they went. Life will carry on as normal. It can happen any time really.
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
thatīs a really good point AO. never thought about another natural "Catastrophy".
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
. . The worldīs asleep, bustling in an atmosphere going to and fro, . . .defying righteousness, glorifying the darkness, as the days of Noah were . . saying there is no God of Justice, failing to seek the Lord of Mercy . .

How much longer will the world scramble to be unified, worshipping the god of unity, seeking īpeaceī without Godī . . how much longer will the Savior be ignored, Christīs Lordship shunned ? . . . . . . the signs are all here . .

. .
When will You come, Lord? . . we are witnessing Your prophetic Word of revelation mightily . . we sense the Day of Christ so imminently . . .

the appointed call is seriously close , . . .

yet . . earnestly, tenderly, Jesus still calls . .

. . oh, Stay in prayer, watchers, the Body of Christ is soon to witness the completion of Redemption nigh upon us . . . . to our Heavenly HOME, the church will be . . . ever to gaze on our Lord Jesus . .
Anonymous Coward
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
No Rapture

Yeah, we know
JND
12/08/2005 10:07 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: No Rapture Until These 2 Things Come First
The first mention of the Church of Jesus Christ, in Heaven, around the Throne of God, is Revelation 5:11,
"And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands."
This is before any of the events of the Tribulation have begun. The Church, The Body of Christ, assembled in Heaven. Absolutely, positively, 100% certain. You can bet your life on it.





GLP