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The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )

 
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The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Romans 3:4
.... yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Acts 15:10
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Romans 2:12
... as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.

Galatians 3:10, 11
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God...

Galatians 3:12, 13
... it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.

Romans 7:2-6
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Why Christians -DO NOT- Have To Keep The Sabbath
[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]


[link to www.youtube.com] - 1
[link to www.youtube.com] - 2

See Biography attachment. I have been exposed to about every mainstream religion in the US. I went to a Lutheran middle school, Catholic high school, attended a couple Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, and finally ended up in an independent, fundamental, KJV only, Baptist church but eventually left there as well because of all the unbiblical things going on in the church. So now just I record a weekly Current Event and Bible study lesson on [link to contendingfortruth.com]

I am a Doctor of Chiropractic with a specialty in clinical nutrition. I have zero formal seminary education and I praise the Lord for it because now a days the seminaries (for the most part) are one of the main reasons ministers get ruined. I believe that I have learned Biblically via this verse:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Endtime Ministries
[link to www.despatch.cth.com.au]

Using the Law Lawfully


Law and Gospel Confusion set Straight. - Law/Gospel Distinction



In the Bible we are taught about the Law of God, which we basically know to be the Ten Commandments as set forth in Exodus 20:2-17 and again in Deuteronomy 5:6-21. There is much expansion on this Law of God and we read of this in the Old Testament Book of Leviticus.

The Law of God is powerful, and the whole human race is subject to it in one way or another, whether they know it or not, as we are told in the Bible that this Law is written on the tablets of our hearts (Romans 2:15), and we instinctively know what it tells us even if we don't have the written word. Romans Chapter 2:12 says "For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law."

In 1 Corinthians Chapter 15:56 we are told how powerful this Law is - and it needs to be powerful because the Law is there to help us combat the sin we are dogged with in this life, whether we are regenerate or unregenerate, and we discover that this sin is the terrible sting of death for we all die at the end of our lives. To make matters worse, we are told that even sin, the sting of death, is backed up by the Law when the Bible tells us these terrifying words "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law."

So, how then do we escape the power of the Law before a holy righteous and just God and how do we escape the terrible wrath of the Father, as there is none on this earth who is good, not even one (Romans 3:10)? We are powerless against it, as Jeremiah 7:9 tells us that the heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful, who can know it, and Ecclesiastes 9:3 tells us there is evil and madness in the hearts of men.

2000 years ago, the Lord Jesus Christ came and fulfilled the law. He lived a sinless life on our behalf, died a horrendous death on our behalf, a death that we should justly die for disobeying the perfect law of God, and finally, He rose from the dead so that we who are His can look forward to the hope of the glory to come with our Saviour. This is the Gospel by which we must be saved. In this video we are told how to distinguish between the Law of God and it's effects, and the good news of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are to know the difference between the two Covenants and the Bible warns those who would confuse the two and call it the Gospel, saying that a man who is guilty of this heresy is to be accursed (Galatians 1:8).

This video is uploaded with kind permission from Matthew AKA YouTube user WaltherChemnitz. Please click on the link to his radio station www.RadicalGraceRadio.com . Thank you so much Matthew and I hope this video will bring comfort and relief to the the thousands of Christians who are being terrorised by most of the preachers on YouTube who are confusing the Law and the Gospel, thereby pronouncing upon themselves the curses of God as set forth in Galations 1:8.

The Law demands;
The Gospel provides;
The Law condemns;
The Gospel forgives;
The Law is conditional;
The Gospel is unconditional;
The Law is imperative;
The Gospel is indicative;
and so on.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Whenever you wish to study the New Testament to see whether the Levitical rites, Required circumcision, or Sabbath keeping are commanded somewhere in there, you may have quite a shock when you find out that they aren't; and even more shocking, in many cases, you will find the exact opposite. However, there are 9 Moral commandments in the New Testament (which line up with 9 of the 10 commandments). Please read the following list to see the proof to such an amazing claim:


References for the 9 "moral" commandments reiterated in the New Testament:


1st - Worship God -

(53 times) Matthew 2:2; 2:8; 2:11; 4:9; 4:10; 14:33; 15:9; 28:9; 28:17, Mark 7:7, Luke 4:7; 4:8; 24:52, John 4:20,21,22(x2),23,24(x2); 9:38; 12:20, Acts 7:43; 8:27; 16:14; 17:23(x2); 18:7; 18:13; 19:27; 24:11, Romans 1:25; 12:1, 1 Corinthians 14:25, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:18, Hebrews 1:6; 9:1; 9:6; 10:2; 11:21, Revelation 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 9:20; 11:1; 11:16; 14:7; 15:4; 19:4; 19:10; 22:8; 22:9


2nd - No Idolatry -

(20 times) Acts 15:20,29, Romans 1:25, 1 Corinthians 6:9; Chapter 8; 10:7,14; 12:2, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Thessalonians 1:9, Galatians 5:20, Ephesians 5:5, Colossians 3:5, 1 Peter 4:3, 1 John 5:21, Revelation 2:14, 20; 9:20; 21:8; 22:15


3rd - No Profanity -

(4 times) Matthew 12:36, Ephesians 5:4, Romans 2:24, Revelation 16:9


4th - Keep Sabbath.

(0 times) Not one verse.


5th - Honor Parents -

(6 times) Matthew 15:5, Matthew 19:19, Mark 7:10; 10:19, Luke 18:20, Ephesians 6:2


6th - Murder -

(7 times) Matthew 5:21; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 1:29; 13:9, James 2:11


7th - Adultery -

(12 times) Matthew 5:27,28,32; 19:9,18, Mark 10:11,19, Luke 16:18; 18:20, Romans 13:9, James 2:11, 2 Peter 2:14


8th - Stealing -

(6 times) Matthew 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 2:21; 13:9, Ephesians 4:28


9th - Lying -

(4 times) Matthew 15:9; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20


10th - Don't Covet -

(9 times) Mark 7:22, Luke 12:15, Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, Hebrews 13:5, 2 Peter 2:14


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

If you still are not convinced, and you are a person who honestly believes Christians must lawfully keep the Sabbath, or the Festivals, must eat only Levitically "clean" foods, males must become circumcised, etc, then please consider the following:

1.) Nowhere does the New Testament even imply that the sabbath is the sign that distinguishes God´s people. The Holy Spirit is the the seal or sign of the new covenant. Circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic covenant; the sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic covenant.

2.) The New Testament nowhere commands Christians to observe either the seventh or the first day of the week as a Christian sabbath.

3.) There is no biblical record of any command to keep the sabbath until the time of Moses. Neither is there any biblical record of people keeping the sabbath until it was given to Israel.

4.) Genesis 2:2-3 simply says that God rested ("ceased") on the "seventh day" after His work of creation had ended. Unlike the preceding six days, the seventh day was not bounded by evening and morning -- it was ongoing and open-ended. Furthermore, Genesis mentions no creation ordinance commanding man to rest. Neither does it record any instance of man keeping a weekly sabbath before the Exodus.

5.) The creation ordinances of marriage and dominion over the earth were repeated to Noah after the flood. It is significant that Noah was given no command to keep the sabbath -- further evidence that it was not a creation ordinance. From ancient times the Jews called the commandments given to Noah the "Noachian commandments." They considered these commandments binding on all men. Usually listed as seven, the sabbath commandment was never included among them.

6.) When God made a promissory covenant with Abraham, God gave him the sign of circumcision. Deut. 4:13 and 5:2-3 state that the Ten Commandments covenant (with its sabbath sign) was not given to the fathers of the Hebrew nation. This covenant came 430 years after God first announced His covenant with Abraham (Gal. 3:17).

7.) The sabbath was given to Israel (Neh. 9:13-14). Although it was patterned after the creation model, this 24-hour rest was obviously not identical to God´s permanent rest which followed a finished creation (Gen. 2:2-3; Heb. 4:3,4,10). The sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic, Sinaitic, or old covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezek. 20:12). Most scholars now agree there is no evidence of a sabbath institution outside Israel.

8.) The Old Testament nowhere indicates that Gentile nations should keep the sabbath. Although the sins of Gentile cities and nations are often specified by the prophets, only Israel was ever chided for breaking the sabbath. Paul appears to follow this Old Testament tradition in Romans chapter 1. Although he lists about twenty-two Gentile sins, he does not mention sabbath-breaking.

9.) Orthodox Judaism, both before and after Christ, taught that Gentiles should keep the sabbath only if they were Jewish proselytes.

10.) As a Jew, Jesus lived under the institutions of the old covenant. He was circumcised and generally kept the sabbath, Passover, and other old-covenant festivals. Nothing in the entire Law could cease to be binding until Jesus fulfilled it all by His death on the cross (Mat. 5:17-19; John 19:30; Rom. 3:21-25). On the eve of His death Jesus instituted the new covenant and sealed it by His sacrificial death. It took the new-covenant community some time under the leading of the Holy Spirit, however, before it could grasp the full implications of life under a new covenant (see John 16:12-15).

11.) Regarding the developing first-century church, there are several points:

a.) The first Christian community arose in Jerusalem and was composed of Aramaic-speaking Jews. They continued their Jewish way of life --i.e., they worshiped at the temple, circumcised their children, and kept the Jewish festivals (including the weekly sabbath). Although their adherence to the Law commended them to the fellow Jews (Acts 2:46-47) it made any Gentile mission impossible.

b.) The Hellenist Jewish Christians, however, were not as conservative. Following the example of the martyr Stephen, they ventured to take the gospel beyond Jewry -- to the Samaritans, the Ethiopian eunuch, and finally to the Gentiles. Peter did as well (Acts 10 and 11:2-3). A flourishing community of Gentile believers was soon established at Antioch (Acts 11). These Gentile Christians lived without reference to the Jewish Law. Believers were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26) because the Torah-free existence identified their religion as something separate from Judaism.

c.) After the Gentile mission had flourished at Antioch for about ten years, some of the Jewish Christians from the mother church at Jerusalem became apprehensive about the Torah-free Gentile mission. They began to urge that Gentile Christians should become Jewish proselytes -- meaning they should be circumcised and thereby undertake to keep the Torah (Acts 15:1,5). It was well understood that circumcision was a sign of submission to the entire Law. This was a great step backwards and contrary to the leading of the Holy Spirit for the previous ten years. The issue was decided at the Jerusalem conference about A.D.49 (see Acts 15). The apostles recognized the Holy Spirit´s fait accompli. Hence it was not necessary for Gentiles to be circumcised or to keep the Torah Law (characterized by sabbaths, meats, etc.)

d.) It was Paul who gave theological justification for this. In Galations he showed that the age of Moses and Torah Law had been superceded by the age of Christ and the Spirit. The Law had acted as a custodian and a guardian until the coming of Christ (Gal. 3:19,24,25; 4:1-4). God´s people were no longer under the supervision of the Law, but rather the law of Christ (Gal. 6:2).

In 2 Corinthians 3, Paul showed that the Ten Commandment covenant had been superceded by the far more glorious ministration of the Spirit under the New Covenant.

In Ephesians 2:14-15, Paul said that the Torah Law with its commandments and regulations acted as a dividing wall of partition between Jew and Gentile. But Christ had abolished this barrier by His death on the cross.

In 1 Cor. 9:20-23, Paul declared that he did not live under the Torah Law (except in a voluntary way), yet he was still subject to God´s law in the sense that he lived under the law of Christ.

e.) The three requirements which particularly characterized a Jew living under the Torah were circumcision, the food laws, and the sabbath. In the Pauline letters there is evidence that Paul was in conflict with Jewish Christians who were urging Gentiles to practice these requirements. Paul was vehemently opposed to those who wanted to impose these regulations on the Gentiles.

In Colossians 2:16-17, he declared: "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

To the Gentile Christians he wrote: "You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you" (Galations 4:10-11).

To the churches in Rome, which were composed of both Jews and Gentiles, Paul wrote: "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord" (Romans 14:5-6).

Except for a few Sabbatarians, scholars today are agreed that these three scriptures address the matter of Sabbath-keeping. This was also the unanimous position taken by the early church fathers and the Reformers.

f.) Paul never wrote to the Gentile churches about sabbath-keeping except in a negative way. Paul´s silence on the matter of urging the young churches to keep the sabbath cannot be regarded as an indication that he or his converts took the obligation for granted. The new Gentile communities had no background in sabbath-keeping. How astonishing it would be for Paul to write so many letters with so much practical instruction on living the Christian life and not mention sabbath-keeping if it were an obligation for Gentile Christians! How strange that all these new converts were warned against committing all kinds of sins but sabbath-breaking is never mentioned!

g.) In an age when the Roman world had no weekly rest day, there is no historical evidence that Christians suffered hardship or persecution because of the sabbath. Many Christians were slaves who had to work every day of the week.

12.) According to the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, God´s people in the age of the new covenant would be identified by loyalty to Christ (Acts 11:26; Rom. 10:9), possession of the Spirit (Acts 19:2; Eph. 1:13; 4:30; 5:18) and love for one another (John 13:34).

13.) The New Testament is not concerned with holy days any more than it is concerned with holy places (see John 4:19-24) or "clean" food (Mark 7:19; Rom. 14:1-5,14,20; I Cor. 8:8; 10:23-27; Col. 2:16-17; 1 Tim. 4:3-5). To emphasize these questions is to distort the spirituality and ethical concerns of the New Testament (see Matt. 25:31-46; Gal. 5:6).

14.) Under the old covenant God sanctified a particular nation for service, a particular place for worship, particular food as clean and particular days for rest. Under the new covenant there is a universalizing of the particular. No longer are people from one nation designated as holy (Acts 10:28,34); no longer is one geographical site set aside for the worship of God (John 4:19-24); no longer is there a distinction between religiously clean and unclean food; and no longer is there a distinction of days (John 5:16-17; Rom. 14:5; Col. 2:16-17). The idea of designating one day as holy is just as irrelevant in the age of Spirit and designating on place as holy. The old covenant was physical, national, and temporal. The new is spiritual, universal, and eternal.

15.) Christ and His apostles imposed no regulations on the church which would create unnecessary hardships or erect unnecessary barriers for people in any place or time. The New Testament commandments are not addressed to a single nation living in Palestine. They are adapted to the needs of people living in a wide diversity of nations and cultures. Those who experience hardship because of sabbath regulations are doubtlessly sincere in their desire to serve God, but they are ill-informed and bear burdens that God has not laid on the church.

16.) The Gentile Christians were free to choose their time of common assembly. They were not bound by Old Testament commandments in this matter ...

17.) Just as spiritual circumcision replaced the physical, and spiritual sacrifices were offered in place of animals, it was taught that Christians enter the better rest of Heb. 4:3, 9-11 and therefore keep the perpetual Christian sabbath.

18.) It was only after the concept of a perpetual rest began fading from the church that the idea of a Sunday sabbath was gradually introduced by the Roman Church, beginning in the fourth century. Making Sunday into a Christian Sabbath was a kind of Christian Judaism.

19.) In summary, the primitive Jewish Christians at Jerusalem continued to keep the sabbath (on this point all notable Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish historians are now agreed); the Gentile Christians did not.

20.) When the Jerusalem council (Acts 15) acknowledged that Gentile Christians were free from the Law, the same freedom was implicitly given to Jewish Christians. The subsequent history of Jewish Christianity is a vital key in the task of discerning the face of the early church ... some Jewish Christians continued to keep the Law, including the sabbath, as necessary for themselves but not necessary for Gentile Christians. These were called the Nazarenes ... there were also Jewish Christians who not only kept the Law and the sabbath themselves, but insisted that all Christians must do the same. These were known as Ebionites. Their hero was James, their enemy, Paul. They were ascetic (vegetarians, teetotallers) and apocalyptic, and they denied the divinity of Christ. They combined Gnostic ideas with their Judaistic tendencies ...

21.) The history of Jewish Christianity demonstrates the futility of a synthesis between Judaism (adherence to the Torah law) and Christianity. In the end Jewish Christians were more Jewish than Christian -- in fact, not Christian at all ... its faith did not develop as Christianity developed. It clung to an expression of Christian faith which was acceptable at the beginning of Christianity in a context of Judaism ... it was a form of stunted, underdeveloped Christianity ... it began to regard strict observance of the law as more important than the spontaneity of love ... it persisted in clinging to a limited view of Jesus and His role ... the Jewish Christianity represents in the end a reactionary attempt to restict the Christian estimate of Jesus within the limitations and confines of Jewish thought and practice ... Hebrew Christianity detached from its native soil had only two alternatives -- back to the Synagogue, which entailed denial of Jesus the Messiah, or fellowship with the Gentile church, which meant denial of the Jewish national heritage.

22.) Paul was denigrated by Jewish Christians because he was held responsible for freeing the Christian movement from the Torah Law. The study of Jewish Christianity starkly reveals that while heretical Jewish Christianity remained Sabbatarian, the Gentile church was decidedly non-Sabbatarian. The notion that early Gentile Christianity was ever Sabbatarian is inexcusable in light of the historical evidence available today.

23.) In view of the biblical data and the evidence of early church history, we can make the following summary of Sabbatarianism:

a.)Those who have traditionally advocated Sunday Sabbatarianism or Sunday sacredness have been wrong on two counts:

1.) They have been wrong in claiming that the first Christian community or its apostles in Jerusalem abandoned the ancient Sabbath in favor of a Sunday sabbath. No creditable scholar will accept that thesis today.

2.) They have been wrong in claiming that the Bible designates Sunday as a Christian
holy day or sabbath. This is contrary to the principle enumerated in Romans 14:5,
Colossians 2:16 and Hebrews 4:3, 9-11, and it also contradicts the historical evidence.

Both forms of Sabbatarianism erred in presuming that the primitive Christians had a uniform pattern of worship. We now know that there was great diversity between Jewish and Gentile Christianity. Christians were forbodden to judge and condemn on another in respect to their diversity in forms of worship. It was sufficient that they be united in their faith in Christ, their Redeemer and Lord. The gospel was the only genuine testing and uniting truth in apostolic Christianity.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

-Israel Wrestles With God-


[link to www.youtube.com]

"Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome." (Gen 32:8)


What is so special about the Jewish people?

Why is the homeland of Israel so important and whats wrong with dividing the land?

Since most Jews don't accept Jesus why do Christians support Israel?

Are there really lost tribes?


[link to www.youtube.com] - 2
[link to www.youtube.com] - 3
[link to www.youtube.com] - 4

Error of Replacement Theology
[link to www.therefinersfire.org]

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

For those who wish to understand the falsity of Seventh-Day Adventism, please refer to the following links:

Introduction

The history of the Seventh Day Adventist Church
[link to www.carm.org]

Church structure of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
[link to www.carm.org]

What does Seventh Day Adventism teach?
[link to www.carm.org]

Issues and Answers

Does the Bible allow Christians to worship on Sunday?
[link to www.carm.org]

Scriptures dealing with the first day of the week.
[link to www.carm.org]

Does CARM recommend the Seventh-day Adventist Church?
[link to www.carm.org]

Resources

[link to www.formeradventist.com]


Last Edited by Aenon on 04/19/2010 08:27 AM
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- Matthew 11:15
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
who r u
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
calling mopar28 out?
Goddrunk  (OP)

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calling mopar28 out?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 763800


lol Anyone who follows these customs, I guess. tounge
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
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tell me about templar
Goddrunk  (OP)

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tell me about templar
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 923838


[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]

The Knights Templar is best known for being the ancient organization which is seen as the founding fathers of the Free-Masonry movement. Founded originally as a 'monastic guard' for the Crusades, the Order, which grew from 9 to thousands were known for charity, power and wealth. They answered only to the Papacy in the beginning but eventually were supported by many European Monarchies as well. Growing out of favor as their power and wealth grew, the Papacy and France sought to put an end to them in 1307, and by 1314 they were officially disbanded. Spiritually they were also referred to the "Temple of Solomon" which in part gave rise to Freemasonry ideation. Freemasons claim they were set up to look heretical in order for the Holy See to gain their power and wealth (heresy was required in those days for Roman Catholic judgment) but others claim they did indeed give rise to the worship of Baphomet, a goat-like god-idol in league with satanic worship. (The symbology has lasted in freemasonry in current times.). Jacque De Molay was the last Templar executed, successfully cursing Pope Clement and the King of France. [the Freemasons youth organization is named for him]. Their secret meetings were used in prosecutions against them in which they were accused of Baphomet worship, homosexuality and sedition. They became lenders and bankers to the wealthy and royal families of Europe, circumventing bans on usury (interest-lending); and because they were immune from prosecution by all but the Papacy, as Innocent had declared, they became quite powerful politically and financially in Europe. Their reported 'rituals' became the foundations for other secret societies, notably masonry. The Nazis, especially Himmler, saw the Knights Templar as a prototype for the Third Reich hierarchy along with other clandestine groups.
 Quoting: [link to www.shoaheducation.com]


Last Edited by Aenon on 04/01/2010 06:38 PM
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drunkgod do u prophesize
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drunkgod do u prophesize
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 923838


Whatever God may grant me to know, that I know.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
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drunkgod do u prophesize


Whatever God may grant me to know, that I know.
 Quoting: Goddrunk

yah me +2
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Error of Replacement Theology
[link to www.therefinersfire.org]

debunked jesuit apologizing

there's plenty of dangerous christian movements to go around, including your futurism.
[link to continuingcounterreformation.blogspot.com]
Goddrunk  (OP)

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Error of Replacement Theology
[link to www.therefinersfire.org]

debunked jesuit apologizing

there's plenty of dangerous christian movements to go around, including your futurism.
[link to continuingcounterreformation.blogspot.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 928228


Let's add SDA-ism to that list as well.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
I gots myself some khazar blood. So...should i follow the traditions of half my ancestors? does the answer depend on which parent is khazar? or how much money we have?

be honest now!!
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
stop quoting from a book written by MEN, all religions stories ETC ETC ETC are forms of control, its time you lot woke up and smelled the s**t you've been shoveling
Goddrunk  (OP)

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04/01/2010 07:05 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
For those who wish to understand the falsity of Seventh-Day Adventism, please refer to the following links:

Introduction

The history of the Seventh Day Adventist Church
[link to www.carm.org]

Church structure of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
[link to www.carm.org]

What does Seventh Day Adventism teach?
[link to www.carm.org]

Issues and Answers

Does the Bible allow Christians to worship on Sunday?
[link to www.carm.org]

Scriptures dealing with the first day of the week.
[link to www.carm.org]

Does CARM recommend the Seventh-day Adventist Church?
[link to www.carm.org]

Resources

[link to www.formeradventist.com]
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2010 07:11 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Well put, sir. Personally, I'm glad to be a circumcized Christian; it's more sanitary and better looking than being uncircumcized.

False zionism has really warped Christianity. Zechariah 11:10-1 explains that the covenant gets cancelled when the high priests pay 30 pieces of silver for the betrayal of the son of God. Check various versions of Zech 11; KJV, Latin Vulgate & Jerusalem Bible. Zechariah was killed by the high priests.

So, Judaism has been false since at least 500BC. Arabs also consider themselves to be offspring of Abraham, entitled to the covenant.

[link to www.whtt.org] explains the origin of false zionism spins on scriptures... Rothschild funding of Scofield Bible footnotes, imposed via Bible colleges teaching Hal Lindsey and other war hawks, like Hagee.

"When the LORD SHALL BUILD UP ZION, he shall appear in his glory"- Psalm 102:16 KJV or 101 other versions.

Govs of the world shall oppose the zion of the Lord, in Acts 4:26 and Psalm 2:2 KJV.

Masonic Israel is defeated when the Lord comes to claim it, in Zech 14:2 & Luke 19:41-44.

"The indignation of the Lord is upon ALL NATIONS, and his fury upon ALL THEIR ARMIES"- Isaiah 34:2.

The Lord overthrows the rulers in Isaiah 24:21-22 and Psalm 110:5-6 KJV or 109 other versions, Rev 11:15, Isaiah 14:5 and 23:9, Rev 19:11/19.

But Linsey would have us all ignoring atrocities of war (Ezekiel 9:3-9), and worshipping jews who reject Christ, and believing we go to hell if we don't support masonic Israel totally. Masonic Israel is not the same as the Zion of the Lord. Armageddon depopulation operations aimed at Torah jews and moslems & Christians by the masonics at hand.

I got banned at GLP for trying to post an article on this, from posting any threads and cannot always reply either. Webtv is a communal ISP, so I can still reply by unplugging my unit and erasing cookies first, which gives me another #, until they ban that one also.

Apparently GLP is run by zionists, as psy-ops, which explains the rabid anti-christian pressure at GODLIKE? productions. They lure those not rabidly against God, and hit us with hostily and peer pressures and propaganda, while banning real whistleblower activists like me.

Now, to see of this reply gets through the ban... [email protected]
†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
Goddrunk  (OP)

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04/01/2010 07:13 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Well put, sir. Personally, I'm glad to be a circumcized Christian; it's more sanitary and better looking than being uncircumcized.

False zionism has really warped Christianity. Zechariah 11:10-1 explains that the covenant gets cancelled when the high priests pay 30 pieces of silver for the betrayal of the son of God. Check various versions of Zech 11; KJV, Latin Vulgate & Jerusalem Bible. Zechariah was killed by the high priests.

So, Judaism has been false since at least 500BC. Arabs also consider themselves to be offspring of Abraham, entitled to the covenant.

[link to www.whtt.org] explains the origin of false zionism spins on scriptures... Rothschild funding of Scofield Bible footnotes, imposed via Bible colleges teaching Hal Lindsey and other war hawks, like Hagee.

"When the LORD SHALL BUILD UP ZION, he shall appear in his glory"- Psalm 102:16 KJV or 101 other versions.

Govs of the world shall oppose the zion of the Lord, in Acts 4:26 and Psalm 2:2 KJV.

Masonic Israel is defeated when the Lord comes to claim it, in Zech 14:2 & Luke 19:41-44.

"The indignation of the Lord is upon ALL NATIONS, and his fury upon ALL THEIR ARMIES"- Isaiah 34:2.

The Lord overthrows the rulers in Isaiah 24:21-22 and Psalm 110:5-6 KJV or 109 other versions, Rev 11:15, Isaiah 14:5 and 23:9, Rev 19:11/19.

But Linsey would have us all ignoring atrocities of war (Ezekiel 9:3-9), and worshipping jews who reject Christ, and believing we go to hell if we don't support masonic Israel totally. Masonic Israel is not the same as the Zion of the Lord. Armageddon depopulation operations aimed at Torah jews and moslems & Christians by the masonics at hand.

I got banned at GLP for trying to post an article on this, from posting any threads and cannot always reply either. Webtv is a communal ISP, so I can still reply by unplugging my unit and erasing cookies first, which gives me another #, until they ban that one also.

Apparently GLP is run by zionists, as psy-ops, which explains the rabid anti-christian pressure at GODLIKE? productions. They lure those not rabidly against God, and hit us with hostily and peer pressures and propaganda, while banning real whistleblower activists like me.

Now, to see of this reply gets through the ban... [email protected]
†††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††††
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 106069


Although I don't agree with everything you say, there is truth in what you say. God bless you.

Last Edited by Aenon on 04/01/2010 07:20 PM
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Nyhee7
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04/01/2010 07:14 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
When you don't follow the gospel of Paul, the true message becomes quite clear....

Isaiah 8:16-22

16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. 17 And I will wait upon the Lord, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him. 18 Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. 19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [4] it is because there is no light in them. 21 And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward. 22 And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.

Revelation 12:17

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 5:19-20

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Joshua, or Jesus taught mercy. He didn't change the letter of the law, he showed how to live the law. What is law? A list of right from wrong, mostly. No matter if you are a human, an angel or a God, there is an eternal list of right from wrong, not because someone says so, but because the things on the list that are wrong lead to death, suicide, destruction of others and self.

Tell me Goddrunk, tell me, if you murder someone because their snoring bothered you, would it be wrong? Would it be wrong if you were an angel? Would it be wrong if you were a god?
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2010 07:20 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
forever lost, just like the jews in jesus' time.

jesus was the scriptures robed in flesh. you must walk them out in order to follow him. and here is all of yalls problem:

Luke 12:47-49 (King James Version)

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

49I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

youre responsible for what you know, not what you dont. dont claim to know the bible if you havent lived it. and if you know it, why arent you living it?
Rev. Moon Jew

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04/01/2010 07:22 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
You are so deep in your apostacy and error, you must be drunk, Goddrunk!

You are denying the very teachings of Yeshua and even denying Him, as He is Lord of the Sabbath.

YHWH will deal with you for your blasphemy.

I truly pity you!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein

revstargazer (at) hotmail.com
Goddrunk  (OP)

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04/01/2010 07:23 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
What is Historicism?

The Historicist prophetic interpretation is a progressive and on going fulfillment of prophecy.

The Historicist believes that the book of Revelation explains (in symbols) the entire course of history of the Church from the first century A.D. to the end of time.
What Was the Origin of Historicism?

The Historicist doctrine had its roots and teachings from some of the early church fathers.

These early church fathers continued with additional teachings and ideas over a period of at least four centuries.

The exact year the term ‘Historicist’ came to be is not known, but the teachings and interpretations began around the latter of first century A.D.

Historicism has to be updated and changed since its beginning, because of the many ‘chosen’ historical events that have passed.

There are at least five different definitions of Historicism.

1. The historical account starts in the time of Daniel, (around 600 B.C.)

2. The historical account starts at the time of Christ, (0-34 A.D.)

3. The historical account starts at, or around 70 A.D.

4. Matthew chapter 24 is fulfilled.

5. Matthew chapter 24 is partly fulfilled.


What are some problems with Historicism?

According to the Bible, the prophecies had immediate meanings for the people to whom they were written.

The Bible does not say hundreds or thousands of years, but soon; quickly; or near. (See: Rev.1:1-3.)

All prophecy is a testimony of Jesus Christ and his gospel. For example: The book of Revelation is a symbolic portrayal of what Christ has already done and its relevance for that future. Jesus Christ is at the center of the prophecies, not men and/or the history of men.

Historicism picks and chooses which historical events that will best fit what they think is a fulfillment. Therefore, Historicism can be labeled as a ‘jigsaw puzzle or match game’, because it tries to match or fit Bible prophecies and symbols with past historical and current events.

Historicism will always try to find a sequence of events that starts from the time the prophecy was written, right up to our present period of time.


Summary

1. Historicism is not a Biblical doctrine.

2. Historicism is a doctrine of men, with unbiblical teachings and interpretations.

3. It is a teaching and doctrine that began with the early church fathers, and cannot be found in the Bible.

4. Historicists pick and choose which historical events that will best fit what theythink is a fulfillment. Therefore, Historicism is a ‘jigsaw puzzle or a match game’.

The Historicist notes that the Revelation had its function first in counseling and for encouraging the early Christians in that period of time, but at the sametime extending its prophetic symbols beyond their understanding and range of vision for the far future.

If anyone doesn’t believe or understand the first three verses of Revelation,neither will they believe or understand the rest of the book.

When a person is stubborn and/or unwilling to accept and believe these verses then the rest of the book can mean anything that the reader desires. It is then impossible for anyone to allow the Bible to interpret itself, and men can make up any interpretation they want.

Historicism is a fable.

[link to www.victorparma.com]
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Goddrunk  (OP)

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04/01/2010 07:23 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
You are so deep in your apostacy and error, you must be drunk, Goddrunk!

You are denying the very teachings of Yeshua and even denying Him, as He is Lord of the Sabbath.

YHWH will deal with you for your blasphemy.

I truly pity you!
 Quoting: Rev. Moon Jew


I'll pray for you too. hf
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Nyhee7
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04/01/2010 07:31 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Summary

1. Historicism is not a Biblical doctrine.

2. Historicism is a doctrine of men, with unbiblical teachings and interpretations.

3. It is a teaching and doctrine that began with the early church fathers, and cannot be found in the Bible.

4. Historicists pick and choose which historical events that will best fit what theythink is a fulfillment. Therefore, Historicism is a ‘jigsaw puzzle or a match game’.

The Historicist notes that the Revelation had its function first in counseling and for encouraging the early Christians in that period of time, but at the sametime extending its prophetic symbols beyond their understanding and range of vision for the far future.

If anyone doesn’t believe or understand the first three verses of Revelation,neither will they believe or understand the rest of the book.

When a person is stubborn and/or unwilling to accept and believe these verses then the rest of the book can mean anything that the reader desires. It is then impossible for anyone to allow the Bible to interpret itself, and men can make up any interpretation they want.

Historicism is a fable.







Nice try at slight of hand, but I never proposed a historist point of view.

I stated that when you dismiss the gospel of Paul, or the letters of Paul, the truth in the bible becomes clear, crystal clear.

Good try though.
Goddrunk  (OP)

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04/01/2010 07:34 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Why "Futurism" is Biblical.

Chuck Missler - Revelation - Session 12 - The 70th Week


1h11m21s

Chuck Missler - Revelation - Session 12 - The 70th Week The Book of Revelation is the only book of the Bible with a Promise to the reader! Why? What makes this book so special? Revelation is a "lens" that puts the entire Bible into focus. The lens is focused on the person of Jesus Christ, and his destiny is imminent. This is a book of victory: We are overcomers! We are the ultimate winners in the game of life! (I read the ending: we win!) One of the reasons this book strikes us as strange is because of our lack of understanding concerning the Old Testament. The Book of Revelation consists of 404 verses that contain over 800 allusions to the Old Testament. These are detailed, along with Chuck's analysis of the design and structure of this fascinating book. Learn about the past, present and future of the Church and our ultimate destiny. This is an ideal "first study" and foundational for every Christian. * Introduction - Some general comments about the Book of Revelation and its uniqueness.


Based on grammar alone, we know that Daniel 9:27 is NOT about Jesus Christ - [link to ldolphin.org]

How Jesus Christ's ministry ended exactly on the 69th Week

Please Read Carefully:
[link to www.biblebb.com]

2. Determining the Messiah's arrival

Daniel 9:25 says, "[The time] unto the Messiah, the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. " The sixty-nine weeks leading to the coming of the Messiah are divided into two time periods of seven and sixty-two weeks. Verse 27 indicates that the seventieth week is separated from the other sixty-nine, so only 483 years of the total 490 involved in Daniel's prophecy span the time between the command and the coming of the Messiah. That is the time period we will consider here.

a) The first seven weeks

(1) When they commence

Verse 25 indicates that they begin with "the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem"--but history records several such commands given on different dates. It's important to know which one is right since a different starting date would result in a different ending date. Bible scholars have suggested three possibilities.

a) At the decree of Cyrus?

Ezra 1:1-4 records a decree made by Cyrus in 536 B. C. Some scholars think that must be the decree mentioned in Daniel's prophecy because God said of Cyrus through Isaiah, "He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure; even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid" (44:28). But 483 years subtracted from 536 B. C. takes us to 53 B. C. , many years before the birth of Christ and still more from the inception of His ministry--a discrepancy of over eighty years.

Over the span of hundreds of years eighty years or so may seem close, but our God isn't close--He's exact! Some have proposed a revision of the Ptolemaic calendar (commonly used before the time of Copernicus) to account for the discrepancy, but that seems an inadequate solution because we can't prove a discrepancy. Also, the actual decree of Cyrus provided only for building the Temple in Jerusalem--not for rebuilding Jerusalem's walls (a necessary part of restoring the city). Thus Cyrus's decree is an unlikely candidate for the command of Daniel 9:25.

(b) At the first decree of Artaxerxes?

The first decree of Artaxerxes in 458 B. C. (Ezra 7:11-26) is considered a possibility. However, 483 years from 458 B. C. takes us to A. D. 26. But the only event of significance in the life of Christ remotely close to A. D. 26 is His baptism. However that wasn't His presentation to the nation as the Messiah, but to the Father for approval. It was a transaction between the Son and the Father, and there's no indication that the people at large understood what happened at Jesus' baptism (Matt. 3:13-17). Also, the first decree of Artaxerxes did not provide for the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

(c) At the second degree of Artaxerxes?

This is the best candidate for the decree spoken of in Daniel 9:25. Two scholars have convincingly researched this view: Sir Robert Anderson of Scotland Yard, who over hundred years ago wrote the classic book The Coming Prince (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1954) , and Dr. Harold Hoehner of Dallas Theological Seminary, who wrote Chronological Aspects of the Life of Christ (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1977). Dr. Hoehner confirmed Anderson's precise computations, differing with him only concerning the proper year of the accession of Artaxerxes to his throne.

Ezra 4 records that the restoration of the Temple was temporarily suspended because the builders were accused of also rebuilding the city without authorization. Permission for rebuilding the city came only with the second decree of Artaxerxes "in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes" (Neh. 2:1). Artaxerxes's reign started in 465 B. C. , so the date referred to in Nehemiah 2:1 was the month of Nisan in the year 445 B. C. Because a king's reign was dated from the first of the month of his reign, Sir Robert Anderson thought that since no other date was mentioned in Nehemiah 2, the date Nehemiah spoke of was probably the first of Nisan, 445 B. C. --or March 14, 445 B. C. according to our calendar.

During the seven weeks indicated in Daniel 9:25 the city of Jerusalem would be rebuilt "even in troublous times. " The books of Ezra and Nehemiah reveal that's precisely what happened (Ezra 9 and 10; Neh. 4, 6, 9, and 13). Yet during that forty-nine year period crucial events occurred in the history of Israel: the city was rebuilt, the Temple established, and the canon of the Old Testament was completed. From the close of that time to the advent of John the Baptist there was no prophet in Israel.

The prophecy that the street and wall of Jerusalem would be rebuilt is best understood to refer to its internal structures and external fortifications (the Hebrew words used literally refer to the marketplace and surrounding moat of the city). The prophecy required the complete restoration of Jerusalem take place in forty-nine years. Since it was during the half century after the second decree of Artaxerxes that history records Jerusalem was rebuilt and completed, it seems that decree must be the one that started the seventy weeks prophesied in Daniel 9:24-27.

(2) When they conclude

The seven weeks of years concluded in 396 B. C. , forty-nine years after the second decree of Artaxerxes in 445B. C.

b) The sixty-two weeks

(1) When they commence

In 396 B. C. , following the forty-nine years of rebuilding Jerusalem, a period of sixty-two weeks of years (434 years) commenced. Simple addition shows that the total number of years between the second decree of Artaxerxes and the coming of the Messiah is 483 years. Each of those years consisted of 360 days. Thus the total number of days involved is 173,880 days.

(2) When they conclude

The phrase "the Messiah, the Prince" (Heb., mashiach nagid) is formal terminology that means "the Anointed One, the Ruler. " The Hebrew word translated "prince" (nagid) was first used of King Saul and then of other kings. It is a title associated with kingly authority and is applied here to the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ as a prince and ruler.

But what particular event in Christ's life marks the end of the sixty-two weeks? Two popular views are His baptism and triumphal entry into Jerusalem.

(a) At Christ's baptism?

Some think the appearance spoken of in Daniel 9:25 refers to His baptism. But as we already discussed, that appearance was a presentation to the Father. Those present were unaware of what was occurring, and the Father's declaration was, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Matt. 3:17) --not a declaration of Christ's kingly authority.

(b) At Christ's triumphal entry?

The interpretation that makes the most sense is the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem since that was when He was presented to the Jewish people as the Messianic Prince. The test of this theory is whether the triumphal entry occurred 173,880 days after the second decree of Artaxerxes.

Working from March 14, 445 B. C. (the date of Artaxerxes' second decree according to our calendar) , Sir Robert Anderson calculated by the use of astronomical calendars and charts that the day of the coming of the Messiah was April 6, A. D. 32. Such calendars and charts helped him determine the timing of the Jewish new moons by which the Passovers were determined.

One of the problems Anderson had to resolve in his calculations was that between the decree of Artaxerxes and the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem is a period of 477 years and 24 days. After deducting one year to account for the fact that 1 B. C. and A. D. 1 are not two years but one, that left Anderson with a total of 476 years 24 days or a total of 173,764 days--not the necessary 173,880 days. That's close--but our God is precise!

Anderson next added 119 days to his figure for the 119 leap years represented by 476 years. That results in a figure of 173,883 days--three days too many! But realizing that the Julian calendar on which our 365 day year is based is slightly inaccurate compared to an actual solar year, Anderson checked with the Royal Observatory in London and found that a 365 day year exceeds a solar year by 1/128th of a day. That fraction of 476 years is three days, which when subtracted from 173,883 yields a difference of 173,880 days--precisely the number of days predicted in Daniel 9:25!

More recently Dr. Harold Hoehner used modern astronomical charts and computers to confirm the work of Sir Robert Anderson. However, he used a different starting date than Anderson. That's because he knew that Medo-Persian kings didn't include the year of their accession to the throne to reckon the length of their reigns. That meant Artaxerxes wasn't considered king until 464 B. C. , and thus rather than using 445 B. C. as the year of Artaxerxes's second decree (as Anderson did) , Hoehner used 444 B. C. (twenty years after Artaxerxes was first recognized as king--Neh. 2:1). It also meant that the first of Nisan fell on March 30 (according to the new moons of 444 B. C. ) rather than March 5.

Using the same adjustments as Anderson, Hoehner multiplied 476 (the number of years between the second decree of Artaxerxes and the presentation of the Messiah in Jerusalem) by 365. 24219879 (the decimal equivalent of 365 days, five hours, forty-eight minutes, and forty-four seconds--which accounts for the 1/128 difference between calendar and solar days observed by Anderson) and obtained a product of 173,855. 28662404 days (173,855 days, six hours, fifty-two minutes, and forty-four seconds). That's twenty-five days longer than the 173,880 that ought to exist from the time of the decree to the time of the Messiah's appearance. But Hoehner was able to adjust that amount by the difference between the starting dates of Anderson (March 5) and himself (March 30) --a period of exactly twenty-five days! Thus regardless of the starting date used, both Anderson and Hoehner were able to show the precision with which God predicted and fulfilled the presentation of Jesus Christ as Messiah and Ruler.

Conclusion

When Jesus entered Jerusalem in triumph it wasn't on a whim. When He said, "Mine hour is not yet come," He knew what He was talking about: God has declared "the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done" (Isa. 46:10). God told Daniel precisely when the Messiah would enter Jerusalem and be acknowledged as King with shouts of "Hosanna to the Son of David!" (Matt. 21:9).

The "gap" between the 69th and the 70th week, and the purpose of the "gap"

[link to www.blueletterbible.org]

The Interval


Verses which imply a gap between the 69th and the 70th:
Isa 61:1-2 (re: Lk 4:18-20) Rev 12:5-6 Also Isa 54:7; Hos 3:4-5; Amos 9:10-11 (Acts 15:13-18) Micah 5:2-3; Zech 9:9-10; Luke 1:31-32; 21:24.


Verses which define the gap between the 69th and 70th:
Lk 19:42 until Rom 11:25

-- The interval is the period for the Church which was kept secret in the Old Testament:
Mt. 13:34-35; Eph 3:5, 9

-- Church was born at Pentecost:
Col 1:18; 1 Cor 12:13; Acts 1:5, 11, 15-16



-- Prerequisities which had to take place before the birth of the Church

Atonement:
Mt. 16:18, 21
Resurrection: Eph 1:20-23
Ascension: Eph 4:7-11 (spiritual gifts came only after ascension)



Unique and Mysterious Character of the Church

Body Concept: Eph 3:3-5,9
(Holy Spirit) Indwelling every believer: Col 1:26-27
Bride of Christ: Eph 5:22-32
Harpazo ("Rapture"): 1 Cor 15:50-58
One "New Man": Eph 2:15; Cf. Rev: 12:5
Distinguished from Jews or Gentiles: 1 Cor 10:32


Why Daniel 9:27 is the Antichrist

Daniel 9:27
And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.
 Quoting:


We know that Daniel 9:27 is not meant for Christ, but the Antichrist, because it correlates with the little horn, man of sin, son of perdition, idol shepherd (etc) mentioned earlier in Daniel and all throughout the Bible. And not only that, but it flows with the previous verse, which says: Messiah will be "cut-off" (executed, disappearing from the "world scene"), then "the people of the prince that shall come" will destroy Jerusalem with the temple. Sometime later, the Antichrist (when he comes, and when the Jews are back in the land and the temple is rebuilt) will make a covenant with many (Israel, or "thy people" as Gabriel puts it) for one week.

What Jesus meant by "the abomination of desolation", how and why it correlates with a historical event


Daniel 11:29-31
"At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time the outcome will be different from what it was before. Ships of the western coastlands [a] will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the holy covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant.

"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
 Quoting:


This is what Antiochus IV Epiphanes did before the arrival of Jesus, and it's recorded in the book of Daniel as well as 1 Maccabees. It also correlates with the Jewish Holiday known as Hannukah. Antiochus IV Epiphanes stopped the temple sacrifices, slew a pig on the altar, then erected a statue of Zeus in the holy temple. This act caused a revolt known as The Maccabean Revolt. Antiochus IV Epiphanes also forced Jews to cease from circumcision as well as Sabbath observance, and executed anyone who was found disobeying these rules.
[link to faculty.bbc.edu]
[link to virtualreligion.net]
[link to christianactionforisrael.org]

Now let's look at what Jesus said about this

Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
 Quoting:


Jesus warns us of a future event but uses a past event as an example. How do we know this?

Event #1 - Past
As previously mentioned, in Daniel 11:31 Antiochus IV Epiphanes stopped the temple sacrifice, then sets up an idol to Zeus in the temple. This act was called "the abomination that causes desolation". The phrase "the abomination that causes desolation" alone should give us pause and bring to our minds what was said in Matthew 24:15.

Event #2 - Future
This event will be just like the previous one, only on a worldwide scale, and much worse. Let's find out why this future event will be like the previous one, and why it is in fact yet to happen.

Future:
The phrase "when ye therefore shall see" alone suggests this event is a future one.

Foreshadow:
Jesus in Matthew 24:15 calls the future event "the abomination of desolation". Gabriel in Daniel 11:31 calls the past event "the abomination that causes desolation". Because we've already discussed what "the abomination that causes desolation" was and who committed the act, it should then be obvious what Jesus was actually talking about in Matthew 24:15. The connection is just too obvious to ignore or deny. With this understanding alone, we then know that "the holy place" is in fact a rebuilt temple.

What is an "abomination"?

The Greek word translated as "abomination" is used only six times in the New Testament. In all four of the six references, the word is used only in the sense of idolatry. Not only that, but the word simply means idolatry.

Abomination - G946 - bdelugma
bdelugma
bdel'-oog-mah
From G948; a detestation, that is, (specifically) idolatry: - abomination.

Strong's G946 - bdelygma
1) a foul thing, a detestable thing
-a) of idols and things pertaining to idolatry

AV — abomination 6
[link to www.blueletterbible.org]


Conclusion
The act of Antiochus IV Epiphanes was largely a foreshadowing of what and who (namely the Antichrist) is to come: "the prince that shall come" will stop the temple sacrifices in the middle of the week, waltz into the temple and declare himself higher than God, perhaps erect in the temple an image of himself (Revelation 13), (which will be the abomination of desolation) then ruthlessly murder those who do not comply with his demanded worship.

What exactly is "the holy place"?

Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
 Quoting:


2Thessalonians 2:3-4
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the Son of Perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
 Quoting:


B. The Holy Place Identified

The "holy place" (Matt. 24:15) has been variously interpreted as the land of Israel, the people of Israel, or the city of Jerusalem. Nonetheless Acts 21:28 tells us quite clearly what it is. Paul had come back to Jerusalem after his third missionary journey. He wanted to reassure the Jews that he was not a traitor to his people. To do this, he went into the Temple to go through a purification ritual with some Jewish men. While Paul was in the Temple, Jews from Asia who knew Paul was a preacher of the gospel found him and started a riot. This was their accusation against Paul: "Men of Israel, help! This is the man that teacheth all men everywhere against the people, and the law, and this place; and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place" (Acts 21:28). The phrase "holy place" in this verse can only be a reference to the Temple. And I don't see any reason for it to mean anything other than that in Matthew 24:15. The Old Testament also refers to the Temple as the Holy Place (cf Ps. 24:3).
 Quoting: [link to www.biblebb.com]


Let's further examine what Paul says

2Thessalonians 2:3-4
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
 Quoting:


Notice what Paul says - Paul says the Son of Perdition will sit in the temple of God and proclaim himself higher than all that is called God. This agrees strongly with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:15 (as well as Daniel 7:8, 11; Daniel 7:20-21, 25; Daniel 11:31, 36-37; Daniel 12:11; Daniel 9:26-27; Daniel 8:25; Revelation 13:5-8)

Further proof that it is in fact a rebuilt temple


Revelation 11:1-2
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple [naos G3485] of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


Take notice that John is given a measuring reed to take measurements, which implies it's a building. Also notice that this temple is not in heaven and that it has an altar and people inside of it. Take notice that Gentiles are given the outer court. This is clearly a rebuilt temple on the earth. We also know it's a rebuilt temple on the earth because we see the two witnesses doing their thing to those who try to harm them while they are visiting:

Revelation 11:3-7
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


The Greek word translated as "temple" in Revelation 11:1 is the same Greek word Paul uses as "temple" in 2 Thessalonians 2:4:

2Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple [naos G3485] of God, shewing himself that he is God.

'Temple' - G3485 - NAOS
G3485
naos
nah-os'
From a primary word; naio; (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple: - shrine, temple. Compare G2411.


NAOS - G3485
from a primary naio (to dwell)

1. used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)
2. any heathen temple or shrine
3. metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ

KJV (46) - a shrine, 1; temple, 45;
NAS (45) - shrines, 1; temple, 42; temple sanctuary, 1; temples, 1;
[link to www.blueletterbible.org]


Last Edited by Aenon on 04/01/2010 07:36 PM
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Lastcall
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04/01/2010 07:35 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Seriously , who posts they "personal" interpretation of the Bible on a conspiracy site?


Even if this was the sanest , intellectual and enlightening discourse about the nature of faith and spirituality ...its in-between the "Chemtrails" and "Reptillian" threads.


Thats like storing your Bible on the same book shelf as your porn collection or hiding your stash in your grandmothers urn.


BTW , your analysis is deeply flawed.

The "New Covenant" was intended for the Jewish people, all of the disciples were Jewish.
Nyhee7
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Oh, by the way, we commandment keeping, testimony of Jesus Christ keepers are dangerous, quite dangerous. We have the truth that exposes the crooked heart of the childish men and women that rule over the world right now, and those that are blind that serve them.

There's a reason the dragon makes war with us, we are his betters, and he knows it. He knows it like a little brother knows the bigger brother is better at math than he is, so the little brother destroys the older brother's math book.

Throw your temper tantrums while you can, little ones. Strike out and scream and cry. Daddy's coming to set you straight.
Goddrunk  (OP)

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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Seriously , who posts they "personal" interpretation of the Bible on a conspiracy site?


Even if this was the sanest , intellectual and enlightening discourse about the nature of faith and spirituality ...its in-between the "Chemtrails" and "Reptillian" threads.


Thats like storing your Bible on the same book shelf as your porn collection or hiding your stash in your grandmothers urn.


BTW , your analysis is deeply flawed.

The "New Covenant" was intended for the Jewish people, all of the disciples were Jewish.
 Quoting: Lastcall 930129


The "New Covenant" was intended for all people, not just the Jewish people. Sorry, your analysis is flawed in light of surmounting Biblical evidence against your claim.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Rev. Moon Jew

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 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:17-18


Are calling Yeshua a liar, Goddrunk?
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein

revstargazer (at) hotmail.com
Goddrunk  (OP)

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 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:17-18


Are calling Yeshua a liar, Goddrunk?
 Quoting: Rev. Moon Jew


This was from an earlier comment I made a few months ago to another person:



[link to www.youtube.com] - Law Fulfilled.
[link to www.youtube.com] - I Am Free From The Old Law.
[link to www.youtube.com] - You Kick Jesus Out.


I'm sure you think I'm blasphemous for even bringing up such a thing. Fine. As I said before, if you think I'm wrong, then pray for me.

Gal 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal 3:10 ¶ For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15 ¶ Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not [a mediator] of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

Last Edited by Aenon on 04/01/2010 07:46 PM
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Anonymous Coward
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04/01/2010 07:44 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
The "New Covenant" was intended for all people, not just the Jewish people. Sorry, your analysis is flawed in light of surmounting Biblical evidence against your claim.
 Quoting: Goddrunk

so are you a gentile, a greek or of the lost tribes of israel?
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
"who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth"

good question. got a problem with obeying?
Goddrunk  (OP)

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04/01/2010 07:47 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
The "New Covenant" was intended for all people, not just the Jewish people. Sorry, your analysis is flawed in light of surmounting Biblical evidence against your claim.

so are you a gentile, a greek or of the lost tribes of israel?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 929799


None of the above. I am one in Christ, as are my family who are likewise.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15





GLP