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The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )

 
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 12:43 AM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
John 14:6
Jesus saith... I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


This doesn't mean people have to go to church to be saved !!


Of course not.


What does that have to do with going to church ??


You're the one who mentioned it, not me. The Body of Christ IS the Church.


Which we can visit AFTER death NOT before !!


Visit what? A church? The Body of Christ is on Earth (and those who died, in heaven).


Jesus isn't in heaven ????


Of course He is.


Then there is no need to visit Jesus on earth....


No need to visit Jesus on earth? I'm not following what you're trying to say here.


As long as a man has a just and 'rightous' soul, then Jesus will forgive him in heaven for not accepting him on earth....
 Quoting: Sugarelf


Sugardevil (an elf = a devil) i suggest you just keep your little mouth shut, you're making a mockery out of yourself.

You have works religion just like the sabbatarian judaizers in this thread:
[link to accordingtothescriptures.org]

you all try to establish your own righteousness, you will see how far that will take you, the way goes down for the works salvationists.
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 12:49 AM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
You know if mainstream christians would just take a step back and look at how utterly insane their argument is, I mean actually sitting back for a moment.

They teach

#1 pray a prayer and punch your ticket forever, BUT IF YOU OBEY GOD OR THE MESSIAH YOU ARE A LEGALIST AND GOING TO HELL.

#2 They teach the exact same thing the Satanic church does. Walk into any serious Satanic church and you will be taught "Satan aka BAAL came to do away with the mean law of God and the new law is DO what thou wilt, you are under the grace of Satan now"

#3 They teach keeping Satanic holidays Like Childmass/Saturnalia which celebrates the birth of every pagan sun god on the planet (Feel free to google "gods born on December 25th), and that keeping "Easter" the Babylonian sex and fertility goddess who changed a bird into a egg laying rabbit and is the Mother of Tammuz is good! O yes my friends, just wear a Jesus sun visor right along with you WWJD bracelet (Of course you have to be stupid and not realize that "Jesus" kept the Feast, Sabbath, Torah) and celebrate your Satanic holidays! REMEMBER KEEPING SATANIC HOLIDAYS IS GOOD, BUT KEEPING THE FEAST OF THE GOD YOU CLAIM TO WORSHIP IS "LEGALISM" AND "ATTACKING JESUS" (EVEN THOUGH "JESUS KEPT THEM)
not important
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04/02/2010 12:53 AM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
John 14:6
Jesus saith... I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


This doesn't mean people have to go to church to be saved !!


Of course not.


What does that have to do with going to church ??


You're the one who mentioned it, not me. The Body of Christ IS the Church.


Which we can visit AFTER death NOT before !!


Visit what? A church? The Body of Christ is on Earth (and those who died, in heaven).


Jesus isn't in heaven ????


Of course He is.


Then there is no need to visit Jesus on earth....


No need to visit Jesus on earth? I'm not following what you're trying to say here.


As long as a man has a just and 'rightous' soul, then Jesus will forgive him in heaven for not accepting him on earth....


Sugardevil (an elf = a devil) i suggest you just keep your little mouth shut, you're making a mockery out of yourself.

You have works religion just like the sabbatarian judaizers in this thread:
[link to accordingtothescriptures.org]

you all try to establish your own righteousness, you will see how far that will take you, the way goes down for the works salvationists.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 929167

----------

Excuse me, "your own righteousness"? The Ten Commandments of the God and Father of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,That is Righteousness and obiedience to them is Salvation.

"Sabbatarian"? I'll take that title only if you also call me a not killatarian and not stealatarian, no idol worshipatarian,ect..
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 01:00 AM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
You know if mainstream christians would just take a step back and look at how utterly insane their argument is, I mean actually sitting back for a moment.

They teach

#1 pray a prayer and punch your ticket forever, BUT IF YOU OBEY GOD OR THE MESSIAH YOU ARE A LEGALIST AND GOING TO HELL.

#2 They teach the exact same thing the Satanic church does. Walk into any serious Satanic church and you will be taught "Satan aka BAAL came to do away with the mean law of God and the new law is DO what thou wilt, you are under the grace of Satan now"

#3 They teach keeping Satanic holidays Like Childmass/Saturnalia which celebrates the birth of every pagan sun god on the planet (Feel free to google "gods born on December 25th), and that keeping "Easter" the Babylonian sex and fertility goddess who changed a bird into a egg laying rabbit and is the Mother of Tammuz is good! O yes my friends, just wear a Jesus sun visor right along with you WWJD bracelet (Of course you have to be stupid and not realize that "Jesus" kept the Feast, Sabbath, Torah) and celebrate your Satanic holidays! REMEMBER KEEPING SATANIC HOLIDAYS IS GOOD, BUT KEEPING THE FEAST OF THE GOD YOU CLAIM TO WORSHIP IS "LEGALISM" AND "ATTACKING JESUS" (EVEN THOUGH "JESUS KEPT THEM)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 755416

+1
applause that just about nails it and they prevent it daily on TBN(The Baal Network.

-Cromwell
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 01:04 AM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
You know if mainstream christians would just take a step back and look at how utterly insane their argument is, I mean actually sitting back for a moment.

They teach

#1 pray a prayer and punch your ticket forever, BUT IF YOU OBEY GOD OR THE MESSIAH YOU ARE A LEGALIST AND GOING TO HELL.

#2 They teach the exact same thing the Satanic church does. Walk into any serious Satanic church and you will be taught "Satan aka BAAL came to do away with the mean law of God and the new law is DO what thou wilt, you are under the grace of Satan now"

#3 They teach keeping Satanic holidays Like Childmass/Saturnalia which celebrates the birth of every pagan sun god on the planet (Feel free to google "gods born on December 25th), and that keeping "Easter" the Babylonian sex and fertility goddess who changed a bird into a egg laying rabbit and is the Mother of Tammuz is good! O yes my friends, just wear a Jesus sun visor right along with you WWJD bracelet (Of course you have to be stupid and not realize that "Jesus" kept the Feast, Sabbath, Torah) and celebrate your Satanic holidays! REMEMBER KEEPING SATANIC HOLIDAYS IS GOOD, BUT KEEPING THE FEAST OF THE GOD YOU CLAIM TO WORSHIP IS "LEGALISM" AND "ATTACKING JESUS" (EVEN THOUGH "JESUS KEPT THEM)

+1
applause that just about nails it and they prevent it daily on TBN(The Baal Network.

-Cromwell
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 881789


Yea and the entire "KJV only" movement is designed to keep them as stupid pew slaves.

They never stop to wonder why the KJV changed the Creator's name which is given almost 7,000 times to the LORD. The LORD in Hebrew Means BAAL..................

They never stop to wonder why they changed the name of the Messiah to "Jesus" when he has the exact same name as Joshua, or Yahushua.

They never wonder why the word church was inserted into their Bibles when the Called out Assembly always was speaking of the MIXED multitude of Israel that was both "Hebrew" and "Gentile" who kept the Commandments.

I have some questions for them!

#1 Yahshua the Messiah said in Matthew Chapter 5 that he “did not come to destroy the Torah or the Prophets or to abolish them”, he then warned that if we “Do not do, and do not TEACH the least of the Commandments we would be Least in the Kingdom of Heaven” if we even get there at all. Christianity teaches that Jesus Abolished the Law, IN DIRECT OPPOSITION TO WHAT THE MESSIAH TAUGHT. Is the Messiah correct, or is your religious guru and denomination correct?

#2 The Renewed Covenant, which christianity likes to call the “New Testament” teaches that “Sin is transgression of the Law/Torah” If Sin is transgression of the Torah, and you repent of your sins, why do you not stop breaking the law?

#3 Why is keeping the Feast of the Creator bondage and legalism, but keeping Satanic unholy days like Saturnalia/Christmas, and Easter, the babylonian Sex Goddess ok? Do you really think the Messiah came so you could celebrate Satanic holidays and wear a Jesus T-shirt because “God knows my heart”?

#4 Why do pastors lie and say all foods are clean when any 1st grader can check the Greek with any concordance? When Shaul (Paul) says “Let all meats be received with thanksgiving” a specific Greek word is used which means “Clean according to Jewish laws”. Do you really think Messiah came so you could eat the Janitors of the earth and have horrible health effects? Also please explain why in the last days the Creator promises judgment upon those who eat swineflesh?

#5 Why is the “Anti-Christ” called the Torahless one? If you, in direct opposition to what Messiah teaches (Matt 5) the law is abolished, would that not make you a follower of the Torah-less one instead of the Messiah?

#6 Why in Revelations does the Dragon make war with those “That Keep the Commandments of God AND have the testimony of the Messiah”?

#7 Again in Revelations, the people given the right to eat of the tree of life, and have eternal life are those who “Keep the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Messiah” Why are “Judiazers” and legalizers given eternal life, but those without Torah are cast into the pit?

#8 In Matthew Chapter 7, Messiah takes us to the future judgment day and shows us a group of religious people on the earth who called him “Lord”, but did not do the will of his Father, and these people did many works in his name. Messiah says “Depart from me you workers of Lawlessness” the word used is ANOMIA, A meaning without, and Nomia meaning Torah. Could you please explain what group on planet earth calls Jesus Lord, but teaches the Torah was abolished and is Anti-Torah?

#9 When asked what a man must do to have eternal life in the Gospels Messiah replies “Keep the Commandments” Is the Messiah correct or is your religious guru that tells you keeping the Commandments is “Legalism” and “attacking the Grace of Jesus”

#10 Why do your religious guru’s lie to you and tell you the Messiah’s name is “Jesus”, when his name is Yahshua, the same as “Joshua” the son of Nun, and the High Priest in Zechariah?

#11 Why do the churches Lie and say “Jesus” was born on December 25th, you know, the day when every sun god on this planet, such as Ra, Tammuz, Mithra, Zeus, Jupiter, Horus, and many others were born, when the gospels make it clear he was born during the Feast of Tabernacles which always occurs in September or October?

#12 Why do they teach the word “Christ” instead of Messiah? Christ is a Greek term, the Greeks called ALL their false gods Christ?

#13 If keeping the Sabbath is bondage and legalism and Keeping the Feast is “attacking the Grace of Jesus”, then why do the scriptures teach the Feast and Sabbaths will be kept during the 1,000 year reign of the Messiah? are the scriptures correct or your religion?

#14 Why when the words of Messiah are quoted, do religious gurus quote Paul as a rebuttle? LIKE PAUL HAS ANY AUTHORITY TO CORRECT THE CREATOR OR THE MESSIAH……..DUH? (This is not a attack on Paul, whose writings are twisted by religious idiots) If you obey your religious leaders version of what Paul teaches, then you are not a follower of the Messiah you are a follower of Paul.

#15 Messiah teaches the Torah and Prophets will not pass away until the universe does, Satanist teach that “Satan came to free man from God’s laws and the new law is Do what thou wilt”. If you teach the same thing Satanist do, that the law is abolished, in direct opposition to what Messiah teaches, would that not make you a follower of Satan rather then the Messiah?

#16 1 John teaches that those who do not keep the commandments are liars, and the truth is not in them, is John the Apostle of Messiah correct or your religious guru that tells you keeping the commandments is legalism?

#17 Why is Romans 3:31 never read in church “Do we make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW”? Is Paul correct and we should establish the Torah in our lives after we are saved, or is your “preacher” or some moron that wrote a christian book correct?

#18 The very prophecy for the New or Renewed Covenant was that the Torah would be WRITTEN ON OUR HEARTS, not on tablets of stone, is the Torah written upon your heart?

#19 Shaul teaches that our enmity against the Torah and Commandments is abolished, and that we are no longer strangers to the Covenant, and that we are grafted into ISRAEL. has your enmity against the Torah and commandments been abolished?

#20 Yahshua taught the Torah, Kept the Feast, Kept the Sabbaths, ate clean foods, worshiped YHWH, the “New Testament” commands you to walk as he walked. Do you do and teach what Messiah did and taught? Are his customs your customs?

#21 Shaul wrote to Timothy and said “The scriptures which thou hast known from a child are able to lead you to righteousness and are profitable for doctrine, reproof, and correction”, THE NEW TESTAMENT DID NOT EVEN EXIST WHEN PAUL WROTE THIS. Is Paul a legalist because he teaches the Torah can lead you to righteousness and that we can correct things and reproof them with the Torah?
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 01:07 AM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Sugardevil (an elf = a devil) i suggest you just keep your little mouth shut, you're making a mockery out of yourself.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 929167


Alpha....

Elf = Alpha = 11


Shoemaker and the Elves....



11 August 1999 at 11:11 am there was a total solar eclipse.

21 December 2012 at 11:11 am the Mayan calendar ends.


[link to www.choicesforliving.com]

There is more evidence that the 21 fragments of the Shoemaker-Levy Comet that slammed into the planet Jupiter on July 16-22, 1994 was a heavenly sign of Messiah's soon return. The total force of the 21 collisions is estimated at 100 million megatons of TNT; the first collision alone at 200,000 megatons, more than all the combined nuclear arsenals of the world, leaving a hole in Jupiter half the size of the Earth....

the first fragment of Shoemaker-Levy hit at exactly 4:11 p.m. eastern time, or 11:11 p.m. Jerusalem time....


11:11
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 01:09 AM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
you all try to establish your own righteousness, you will see how far that will take you, the way goes down for the works salvationists.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 929167



Nope....

I am a judge....

11:11
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 01:11 AM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
You have works religion just like the sabbatarian judaizers in this thread:
[link to accordingtothescriptures.org]
.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 929167



Yep....that too....I DO IT ALL !!!!

11:11
Goddrunk  (OP)

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04/02/2010 02:56 AM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
You know if mainstream christians would just take a step back and look at how utterly insane their argument is, I mean actually sitting back for a moment.

They teach

#1 pray a prayer and punch your ticket forever, BUT IF YOU OBEY GOD OR THE MESSIAH YOU ARE A LEGALIST AND GOING TO HELL.

#2 They teach the exact same thing the Satanic church does. Walk into any serious Satanic church and you will be taught "Satan aka BAAL came to do away with the mean law of God and the new law is DO what thou wilt, you are under the grace of Satan now"

#3 They teach keeping Satanic holidays Like Childmass/Saturnalia which celebrates the birth of every pagan sun god on the planet (Feel free to google "gods born on December 25th), and that keeping "Easter" the Babylonian sex and fertility goddess who changed a bird into a egg laying rabbit and is the Mother of Tammuz is good! O yes my friends, just wear a Jesus sun visor right along with you WWJD bracelet (Of course you have to be stupid and not realize that "Jesus" kept the Feast, Sabbath, Torah) and celebrate your Satanic holidays! REMEMBER KEEPING SATANIC HOLIDAYS IS GOOD, BUT KEEPING THE FEAST OF THE GOD YOU CLAIM TO WORSHIP IS "LEGALISM" AND "ATTACKING JESUS" (EVEN THOUGH "JESUS KEPT THEM)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 755416


Your comment is a little confusing.

#1 - I don't think salvation is just some prayer, and the Bible also makes it very clear about what we must and must not do.

#2 - I don't teach "do what thou wilt," because that is very unbiblical.

#3 - Jesus kept the Law of Moses (perfectly, might I add) because He was the one who ordained it to be kept, and as a man was required to keep it. However, in the New Covenant, we are not required to eat clean foods, keep the Sabbath, or the Holy Feast Days.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Goddrunk  (OP)

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04/02/2010 03:21 AM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
I have some questions for them!

#1 Yahshua the Messiah said in Matthew Chapter 5 that he “did not come to destroy the Torah or the Prophets or to abolish them”, he then warned that if we “Do not do, and do not TEACH the least of the Commandments we would be Least in the Kingdom of Heaven” if we even get there at all. Christianity teaches that Jesus Abolished the Law, IN DIRECT OPPOSITION TO WHAT THE MESSIAH TAUGHT. Is the Messiah correct, or is your religious guru and denomination correct?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 755416


Just show me one verse that says we, as Christians, must keep the Sabbath. Let me give you a hint: You won't find even one.

What is the purpose of the Sabbath? Who must keep it, how, why?

1.) Nowhere does the New Testament even imply that the sabbath is the sign that distinguishes God´s people. The Holy Spirit is the the seal or sign of the new covenant. Circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic covenant; the sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic covenant.

2.) The New Testament nowhere commands Christians to observe either the seventh or the first day of the week as a Christian sabbath.

3.) There is no biblical record of any command to keep the sabbath until the time of Moses. Neither is there any biblical record of people keeping the sabbath until it was given to Israel.

4.) Genesis 2:2-3 simply says that God rested ("ceased") on the "seventh day" after His work of creation had ended. Unlike the preceding six days, the seventh day was not bounded by evening and morning -- it was ongoing and open-ended. Furthermore, Genesis mentions no creation ordinance commanding man to rest. Neither does it record any instance of man keeping a weekly sabbath before the Exodus.

5.) The creation ordinances of marriage and dominion over the earth were repeated to Noah after the flood. It is significant that Noah was given no command to keep the sabbath -- further evidence that it was not a creation ordinance. From ancient times the Jews called the commandments given to Noah the "Noachian commandments." They considered these commandments binding on all men. Usually listed as seven, the sabbath commandment was never included among them.

6.) When God made a promissory covenant with Abraham, God gave him the sign of circumcision. Deut. 4:13 and 5:2-3 state that the Ten Commandments covenant (with its sabbath sign) was not given to the fathers of the Hebrew nation. This covenant came 430 years after God first announced His covenant with Abraham (Gal. 3:17).

7.) The sabbath was given to Israel (Neh. 9:13-14). Although it was patterned after the creation model, this 24-hour rest was obviously not identical to God´s permanent rest which followed a finished creation (Gen. 2:2-3; Heb. 4:3,4,10). The sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic, Sinaitic, or old covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezek. 20:12). Most scholars now agree there is no evidence of a sabbath institution outside Israel.

8.) The Old Testament nowhere indicates that Gentile nations should keep the sabbath. Although the sins of Gentile cities and nations are often specified by the prophets, only Israel was ever chided for breaking the sabbath. Paul appears to follow this Old Testament tradition in Romans chapter 1. Although he lists about twenty-two Gentile sins, he does not mention sabbath-breaking.

9.) Orthodox Judaism, both before and after Christ, taught that Gentiles should keep the sabbath only if they were Jewish proselytes.

10.) As a Jew, Jesus lived under the institutions of the old covenant. He was circumcised and generally kept the sabbath, Passover, and other old-covenant festivals. Nothing in the entire Law could cease to be binding until Jesus fulfilled it all by His death on the cross (Mat. 5:17-19; John 19:30; Rom. 3:21-25). On the eve of His death Jesus instituted the new covenant and sealed it by His sacrificial death. It took the new-covenant community some time under the leading of the Holy Spirit, however, before i

You won't find one verse in the New Testament which says we must keep the Sabbath, but you will find many of verses which say we must keep the rest of the commandments. Why? Because Sabbath keeping was a sign between Israel, under the Mosaic Covenant, and God.

WAS THE SABBATH GIVEN FOR ALL MANKIND TO KEEP PERPETUALLY?

No, - Though Genesis 2:1-3 says that after the Lord had ended all His work He rested on the seventh day and blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, there is not a word about it being given to Adam and Eve as a commandment. You don't hear another word about the Sabbath in the entire book of Genesis. All fifty chapters are silent about the Sabbath.

You do not hear that the righteous Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob kept the Sabbath. There is a conspicuous silence for 2,500 years after the Fall of man. It is not until after the redemption of God's people Israel out of Egypt when they are safely on the other side of the Red Sea that you read in the Book of Exodus that the Sabbath is mentioned again. (Exodus 16:22-30). Abraham was given commandments and ordinances, but the Sabbath is never mentioned as one of them.

Then the Sabbath is given to Israel and Israel alone. The Sabbath is a covenant sign between God and the nation of Israel. "And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 'Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the Lord; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he ceased from labor, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:12-17

Notice that the reason why the Lord links the Sabbath to creation is that He is identifying Himself to Israel as the true and living Creator God. He is separate and apart from all of the other gods of Egypt and of the Gentile world. "Keep the Sabbath, worship Me, for I AM the true, living Creator of the Universe."

Notice also that this Sabbath "SIGN" (Exodus 31:13) is between God and "the sons of Israel" (Exodus 12:15,17) and not for all of mankind.

Nehemiah 9:13-14 indicates that the Sabbath was not given to be kept by anyone until it was given to Israel in the wilderness. "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses." (NIV).

DOESN'T THE BIBLE SAY THAT THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN?

"And He was saying to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." Mark 2:27. Sabbatarians often use this verse to say that the Sabbath was made for all mankind, but the text doesn't say that. It doesn't say, "The Sabbath was made for "mankind", it says, "the Sabbath was made for man". When the Scripture is meant to be inclusive of all mankind it is clear. See Matthew 28:19; John 3:16; Acts 2:17; I Timothy 2:4; Titus 2:11. These verses clearly indicate that when God offers something to all mankind He clearly offers it to all.

The Sabbath was not offered to all the nations. It was given only to the nation of Israel. Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15 which gives the commandments to Israel. It is clearly stated that God did not give the Sabbath or other commandments to the fathers before (see verses 2-3).

One writer has brought up the point that this text shows that the Sabbath was not a part of the "moral" Law to be kept by all mankind from the beginning, for it had to be made. It was made in Exodus 16-20. Notice also that this text does not say it was made for man from the "beginning," as was marriage (cf Matthew 19:4ff). WHICH OTHER OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS HAD TO BE MADE? --NOT ONE! (Gerald N. Wright, Sabbatarian Concordance & Commentary, Star Bible & Tract Corp., 1977, pp. 78-79).

Wright commenting on this passage says: "The other nine [commandments] were (and are) inherently right from the beginning, reflecting God's righteous nature and being naturally a part of man's moral character, who was made in the image of God (cf Romans 2:14). Which command other than the sabbath is lower than man--subject to being set aside under certain circumstances? When, or under what circumstances, can man lawfully commit adultery? Obviously, never! Man's life is not above God's holy and moral laws. Yet even a sheep's life is more important than rigid enforcement of the sabbath (Matthew 12:10-12)!

NO "BURGER KING" SABBATHS - You can't "Have It Your Way" with the Sabbath. God specifies how it was to be kept.

-It was to be kept from sunset to sunset (Lev. 23:32)
-No burden was to be carried (Jer. 17:21)
-No fire kindled (Ex. 35:3)
-No Cooking done (Ex. 16:23)
-The penalty for doing any of these things during the Sabbath was DEATH (Numbers 15).


#2 The Renewed Covenant, which christianity likes to call the “New Testament” teaches that “Sin is transgression of the Law/Torah” If Sin is transgression of the Torah, and you repent of your sins, why do you not stop breaking the law?
 Quoting:


Sin is transgression of these Laws:

References for the 9 "moral" commandments reiterated in the New Testament:


1st - Worship God -

(53 times) Matthew 2:2; 2:8; 2:11; 4:9; 4:10; 14:33; 15:9; 28:9; 28:17, Mark 7:7, Luke 4:7; 4:8; 24:52, John 4:20,21,22(x2),23,24(x2); 9:38; 12:20, Acts 7:43; 8:27; 16:14; 17:23(x2); 18:7; 18:13; 19:27; 24:11, Romans 1:25; 12:1, 1 Corinthians 14:25, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:18, Hebrews 1:6; 9:1; 9:6; 10:2; 11:21, Revelation 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 9:20; 11:1; 11:16; 14:7; 15:4; 19:4; 19:10; 22:8; 22:9

2nd - No Idolatry -

(20 times) Acts 15:20,29, Romans 1:25, 1 Corinthians 6:9; Chapter 8; 10:7,14; 12:2, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Thessalonians 1:9, Galatians 5:20, Ephesians 5:5, Colossians 3:5, 1 Peter 4:3, 1 John 5:21, Revelation 2:14, 20; 9:20; 21:8; 22:15

3rd - No Profanity -

(4 times) Matthew 12:36, Ephesians 5:4, Romans 2:24, Revelation 16:9

5th - Honor Parents -

(6 times) Matthew 15:5, Matthew 19:19, Mark 7:10; 10:19, Luke 18:20, Ephesians 6:2

6th - Murder -

(7 times) Matthew 5:21; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 1:29; 13:9, James 2:11

7th - Adultery -

(12 times) Matthew 5:27,28,32; 19:9,18, Mark 10:11,19, Luke 16:18; 18:20, Romans 13:9, James 2:11, 2 Peter 2:14

8th - Stealing -

(6 times) Matthew 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 2:21; 13:9, Ephesians 4:28

9th - Lying -

(4 times) Matthew 15:9; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20

10th - Don't Covet -

(9 times) Mark 7:22, Luke 12:15, Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, Hebrews 13:5, 2 Peter 2:14

#3 Why is keeping the Feast of the Creator bondage and legalism, but keeping Satanic unholy days like Saturnalia/Christmas, and Easter, the babylonian Sex Goddess ok? Do you really think the Messiah came so you could celebrate Satanic holidays and wear a Jesus T-shirt because “God knows my heart”?
 Quoting:


I don't celebrate those holidays.

#4 Why do pastors lie and say all foods are clean when any 1st grader can check the Greek with any concordance? When Shaul (Paul) says “Let all meats be received with thanksgiving” a specific Greek word is used which means “Clean according to Jewish laws”. Do you really think Messiah came so you could eat the Janitors of the earth and have horrible health effects? Also please explain why in the last days the Creator promises judgment upon those who eat swineflesh?
 Quoting:


Acts 10:9-16
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.


#13 If keeping the Sabbath is bondage and legalism and Keeping the Feast is “attacking the Grace of Jesus”, then why do the scriptures teach the Feast and Sabbaths will be kept during the 1,000 year reign of the Messiah? are the scriptures correct or your religion?
 Quoting:


Good question. As of now, these things actually condemn us and are currently categorized as "under the Law (of Moses)," believe it or not. When they are instituted later, that is because they are perfect and because Jesus will literally be reigning the earth with righteousness.

#14 Why when the words of Messiah are quoted, do religious gurus quote Paul as a rebuttle? LIKE PAUL HAS ANY AUTHORITY TO CORRECT THE CREATOR OR THE MESSIAH……..DUH? (This is not a attack on Paul, whose writings are twisted by religious idiots) If you obey your religious leaders version of what Paul teaches, then you are not a follower of the Messiah you are a follower of Paul.
 Quoting:


I guess you believe Paul contradicts Jesus. That's sad. That's all I can say.

#17 Why is Romans 3:31 never read in church “Do we make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW”? Is Paul correct and we should establish the Torah in our lives after we are saved, or is your “preacher” or some moron that wrote a christian book correct?
 Quoting:


I thought Paul was a false prophet? Which one is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

#19 Shaul teaches that our enmity against the Torah and Commandments is abolished, and that we are no longer strangers to the Covenant, and that we are grafted into ISRAEL. has your enmity against the Torah and commandments been abolished?
 Quoting:


Israel was around before the Law of Moses (FYI). The Tree represents the promises to Abraham more-so than the promises to the physical descendants of Jacob.

Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

#20 Yahshua taught the Torah, Kept the Feast, Kept the Sabbaths, ate clean foods, worshiped YHWH, the “New Testament” commands you to walk as he walked. Do you do and teach what Messiah did and taught? Are his customs your customs?
 Quoting:


In order to redeem us from the Law, He had to keep it perfectly. A Lamb without blemish indeed. The New Covenant did not start until the death and Resurrection of the Messiah.

#21 Shaul wrote to Timothy and said “The scriptures which thou hast known from a child are able to lead you to righteousness and are profitable for doctrine, reproof, and correction”, THE NEW TESTAMENT DID NOT EVEN EXIST WHEN PAUL WROTE THIS. Is Paul a legalist because he teaches the Torah can lead you to righteousness and that we can correct things and reproof them with the Torah?
 Quoting:


The Old Testament, which Paul used, clearly taught that the Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel; the Festivals and Levitically clean foods were ordinances under the Law of Moses - the perfect Law which showed us our transgression.

Last Edited by Aenon on 04/02/2010 03:33 AM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Y'all are just a wee bit goofy.
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Y'all are just a wee bit goofy.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 911359

butt
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
I have some questions for them!

#1 Yahshua the Messiah said in Matthew Chapter 5 that he “did not come to destroy the Torah or the Prophets or to abolish them”, he then warned that if we “Do not do, and do not TEACH the least of the Commandments we would be Least in the Kingdom of Heaven” if we even get there at all. Christianity teaches that Jesus Abolished the Law, IN DIRECT OPPOSITION TO WHAT THE MESSIAH TAUGHT. Is the Messiah correct, or is your religious guru and denomination correct?


Just show me one verse that says we, as Christians, must keep the Sabbath. Let me give you a hint: You won't find even one.

What is the purpose of the Sabbath? Who must keep it, how, why?

1.) Nowhere does the New Testament even imply that the sabbath is the sign that distinguishes God´s people. The Holy Spirit is the the seal or sign of the new covenant. Circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic covenant; the sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic covenant.

2.) The New Testament nowhere commands Christians to observe either the seventh or the first day of the week as a Christian sabbath.

3.) There is no biblical record of any command to keep the sabbath until the time of Moses. Neither is there any biblical record of people keeping the sabbath until it was given to Israel.

4.) Genesis 2:2-3 simply says that God rested ("ceased") on the "seventh day" after His work of creation had ended. Unlike the preceding six days, the seventh day was not bounded by evening and morning -- it was ongoing and open-ended. Furthermore, Genesis mentions no creation ordinance commanding man to rest. Neither does it record any instance of man keeping a weekly sabbath before the Exodus.

5.) The creation ordinances of marriage and dominion over the earth were repeated to Noah after the flood. It is significant that Noah was given no command to keep the sabbath -- further evidence that it was not a creation ordinance. From ancient times the Jews called the commandments given to Noah the "Noachian commandments." They considered these commandments binding on all men. Usually listed as seven, the sabbath commandment was never included among them.

6.) When God made a promissory covenant with Abraham, God gave him the sign of circumcision. Deut. 4:13 and 5:2-3 state that the Ten Commandments covenant (with its sabbath sign) was not given to the fathers of the Hebrew nation. This covenant came 430 years after God first announced His covenant with Abraham (Gal. 3:17).

7.) The sabbath was given to Israel (Neh. 9:13-14). Although it was patterned after the creation model, this 24-hour rest was obviously not identical to God´s permanent rest which followed a finished creation (Gen. 2:2-3; Heb. 4:3,4,10). The sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic, Sinaitic, or old covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezek. 20:12). Most scholars now agree there is no evidence of a sabbath institution outside Israel.

8.) The Old Testament nowhere indicates that Gentile nations should keep the sabbath. Although the sins of Gentile cities and nations are often specified by the prophets, only Israel was ever chided for breaking the sabbath. Paul appears to follow this Old Testament tradition in Romans chapter 1. Although he lists about twenty-two Gentile sins, he does not mention sabbath-breaking.

9.) Orthodox Judaism, both before and after Christ, taught that Gentiles should keep the sabbath only if they were Jewish proselytes.

10.) As a Jew, Jesus lived under the institutions of the old covenant. He was circumcised and generally kept the sabbath, Passover, and other old-covenant festivals. Nothing in the entire Law could cease to be binding until Jesus fulfilled it all by His death on the cross (Mat. 5:17-19; John 19:30; Rom. 3:21-25). On the eve of His death Jesus instituted the new covenant and sealed it by His sacrificial death. It took the new-covenant community some time under the leading of the Holy Spirit, however, before i

You won't find one verse in the New Testament which says we must keep the Sabbath, but you will find many of verses which say we must keep the rest of the commandments. Why? Because Sabbath keeping was a sign between Israel, under the Mosaic Covenant, and God.

WAS THE SABBATH GIVEN FOR ALL MANKIND TO KEEP PERPETUALLY?

No, - Though Genesis 2:1-3 says that after the Lord had ended all His work He rested on the seventh day and blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, there is not a word about it being given to Adam and Eve as a commandment. You don't hear another word about the Sabbath in the entire book of Genesis. All fifty chapters are silent about the Sabbath.

You do not hear that the righteous Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob kept the Sabbath. There is a conspicuous silence for 2,500 years after the Fall of man. It is not until after the redemption of God's people Israel out of Egypt when they are safely on the other side of the Red Sea that you read in the Book of Exodus that the Sabbath is mentioned again. (Exodus 16:22-30). Abraham was given commandments and ordinances, but the Sabbath is never mentioned as one of them.

Then the Sabbath is given to Israel and Israel alone. The Sabbath is a covenant sign between God and the nation of Israel. "And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. 'Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the Lord; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death. So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he ceased from labor, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:12-17

Notice that the reason why the Lord links the Sabbath to creation is that He is identifying Himself to Israel as the true and living Creator God. He is separate and apart from all of the other gods of Egypt and of the Gentile world. "Keep the Sabbath, worship Me, for I AM the true, living Creator of the Universe."

Notice also that this Sabbath "SIGN" (Exodus 31:13) is between God and "the sons of Israel" (Exodus 12:15,17) and not for all of mankind.

Nehemiah 9:13-14 indicates that the Sabbath was not given to be kept by anyone until it was given to Israel in the wilderness. "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses." (NIV).

DOESN'T THE BIBLE SAY THAT THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN?

"And He was saying to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." Mark 2:27. Sabbatarians often use this verse to say that the Sabbath was made for all mankind, but the text doesn't say that. It doesn't say, "The Sabbath was made for "mankind", it says, "the Sabbath was made for man". When the Scripture is meant to be inclusive of all mankind it is clear. See Matthew 28:19; John 3:16; Acts 2:17; I Timothy 2:4; Titus 2:11. These verses clearly indicate that when God offers something to all mankind He clearly offers it to all.

The Sabbath was not offered to all the nations. It was given only to the nation of Israel. Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15 which gives the commandments to Israel. It is clearly stated that God did not give the Sabbath or other commandments to the fathers before (see verses 2-3).

One writer has brought up the point that this text shows that the Sabbath was not a part of the "moral" Law to be kept by all mankind from the beginning, for it had to be made. It was made in Exodus 16-20. Notice also that this text does not say it was made for man from the "beginning," as was marriage (cf Matthew 19:4ff). WHICH OTHER OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS HAD TO BE MADE? --NOT ONE! (Gerald N. Wright, Sabbatarian Concordance & Commentary, Star Bible & Tract Corp., 1977, pp. 78-79).

Wright commenting on this passage says: "The other nine [commandments] were (and are) inherently right from the beginning, reflecting God's righteous nature and being naturally a part of man's moral character, who was made in the image of God (cf Romans 2:14). Which command other than the sabbath is lower than man--subject to being set aside under certain circumstances? When, or under what circumstances, can man lawfully commit adultery? Obviously, never! Man's life is not above God's holy and moral laws. Yet even a sheep's life is more important than rigid enforcement of the sabbath (Matthew 12:10-12)!

NO "BURGER KING" SABBATHS - You can't "Have It Your Way" with the Sabbath. God specifies how it was to be kept.

-It was to be kept from sunset to sunset (Lev. 23:32)
-No burden was to be carried (Jer. 17:21)
-No fire kindled (Ex. 35:3)
-No Cooking done (Ex. 16:23)
-The penalty for doing any of these things during the Sabbath was DEATH (Numbers 15).


#2 The Renewed Covenant, which christianity likes to call the “New Testament” teaches that “Sin is transgression of the Law/Torah” If Sin is transgression of the Torah, and you repent of your sins, why do you not stop breaking the law?

Sin is transgression of these Laws:

References for the 9 "moral" commandments reiterated in the New Testament:


1st - Worship God -

(53 times) Matthew 2:2; 2:8; 2:11; 4:9; 4:10; 14:33; 15:9; 28:9; 28:17, Mark 7:7, Luke 4:7; 4:8; 24:52, John 4:20,21,22(x2),23,24(x2); 9:38; 12:20, Acts 7:43; 8:27; 16:14; 17:23(x2); 18:7; 18:13; 19:27; 24:11, Romans 1:25; 12:1, 1 Corinthians 14:25, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:18, Hebrews 1:6; 9:1; 9:6; 10:2; 11:21, Revelation 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 9:20; 11:1; 11:16; 14:7; 15:4; 19:4; 19:10; 22:8; 22:9

2nd - No Idolatry -

(20 times) Acts 15:20,29, Romans 1:25, 1 Corinthians 6:9; Chapter 8; 10:7,14; 12:2, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Thessalonians 1:9, Galatians 5:20, Ephesians 5:5, Colossians 3:5, 1 Peter 4:3, 1 John 5:21, Revelation 2:14, 20; 9:20; 21:8; 22:15

3rd - No Profanity -

(4 times) Matthew 12:36, Ephesians 5:4, Romans 2:24, Revelation 16:9

5th - Honor Parents -

(6 times) Matthew 15:5, Matthew 19:19, Mark 7:10; 10:19, Luke 18:20, Ephesians 6:2

6th - Murder -

(7 times) Matthew 5:21; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 1:29; 13:9, James 2:11

7th - Adultery -

(12 times) Matthew 5:27,28,32; 19:9,18, Mark 10:11,19, Luke 16:18; 18:20, Romans 13:9, James 2:11, 2 Peter 2:14

8th - Stealing -

(6 times) Matthew 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 2:21; 13:9, Ephesians 4:28

9th - Lying -

(4 times) Matthew 15:9; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20

10th - Don't Covet -

(9 times) Mark 7:22, Luke 12:15, Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, Hebrews 13:5, 2 Peter 2:14

#3 Why is keeping the Feast of the Creator bondage and legalism, but keeping Satanic unholy days like Saturnalia/Christmas, and Easter, the babylonian Sex Goddess ok? Do you really think the Messiah came so you could celebrate Satanic holidays and wear a Jesus T-shirt because “God knows my heart”?

I don't celebrate those holidays.

#4 Why do pastors lie and say all foods are clean when any 1st grader can check the Greek with any concordance? When Shaul (Paul) says “Let all meats be received with thanksgiving” a specific Greek word is used which means “Clean according to Jewish laws”. Do you really think Messiah came so you could eat the Janitors of the earth and have horrible health effects? Also please explain why in the last days the Creator promises judgment upon those who eat swineflesh?

Acts 10:9-16
On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.


#13 If keeping the Sabbath is bondage and legalism and Keeping the Feast is “attacking the Grace of Jesus”, then why do the scriptures teach the Feast and Sabbaths will be kept during the 1,000 year reign of the Messiah? are the scriptures correct or your religion?

Good question. As of now, these things actually condemn us and are currently categorized as "under the Law (of Moses)," believe it or not. When they are instituted later, that is because they are perfect and because Jesus will literally be reigning the earth with righteousness.

#14 Why when the words of Messiah are quoted, do religious gurus quote Paul as a rebuttle? LIKE PAUL HAS ANY AUTHORITY TO CORRECT THE CREATOR OR THE MESSIAH……..DUH? (This is not a attack on Paul, whose writings are twisted by religious idiots) If you obey your religious leaders version of what Paul teaches, then you are not a follower of the Messiah you are a follower of Paul.

I guess you believe Paul contradicts Jesus. That's sad. That's all I can say.

#17 Why is Romans 3:31 never read in church “Do we make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW”? Is Paul correct and we should establish the Torah in our lives after we are saved, or is your “preacher” or some moron that wrote a christian book correct?

I thought Paul was a false prophet? Which one is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

#19 Shaul teaches that our enmity against the Torah and Commandments is abolished, and that we are no longer strangers to the Covenant, and that we are grafted into ISRAEL. has your enmity against the Torah and commandments been abolished?

Israel was around before the Law of Moses (FYI). The Tree represents the promises to Abraham more-so than the promises to the physical descendants of Jacob.

Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

#20 Yahshua taught the Torah, Kept the Feast, Kept the Sabbaths, ate clean foods, worshiped YHWH, the “New Testament” commands you to walk as he walked. Do you do and teach what Messiah did and taught? Are his customs your customs?

In order to redeem us from the Law, He had to keep it perfectly. A Lamb without blemish indeed. The New Covenant did not start until the death and Resurrection of the Messiah.

#21 Shaul wrote to Timothy and said “The scriptures which thou hast known from a child are able to lead you to righteousness and are profitable for doctrine, reproof, and correction”, THE NEW TESTAMENT DID NOT EVEN EXIST WHEN PAUL WROTE THIS. Is Paul a legalist because he teaches the Torah can lead you to righteousness and that we can correct things and reproof them with the Torah?


The Old Testament, which Paul used, clearly taught that the Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel; the Festivals and Levitically clean foods were ordinances under the Law of Moses - the perfect Law which showed us our transgression.
 Quoting: Goddrunk


I never once said Shaul was a false prophet. (If what is in your English Bible is correct then he is a false prophet)

Sir you will be enslaved your entire life to religion until you realize the scriptures were not penned in Flowery King James English and handed to Moses.

The Messiah came to free us from MAN MADE RELIGION, not the Instructions of the Creator that teach us HOW to love the Creator and HOW to love our neighbor as ourselves.

If you bothered to even read and study the Torah and Prophets you will see that the "Curse of the Law" is a Torah teaching and not a New Concept. Just like the law in America "Do not steal cars", that law is holy just and good, and you are expected to live by it in America lest you are sent to jail.

You fall under "The curse of the car law" when you steal them. Messiah came to get you from under the curse. HE DID NOT COME SO YOU CAN STEAL CARS UNDER THE GRACE OF GEEEEZUZZZZ.

You also actually prove you have never even read the entire New Testament nor Studied it, as you say there are no contradictions in your Enlgish versions.

The King James are full of contradictions between the teachings of Paul and the Messiah. Many times in English it infers Paul is teaching the exact opposite of Messiah. many times Paul is speaking of Ultra Orthodox Rabbinical Pharisaism, and quite frankly a gentile is not going to understand one word of what he is saying.

Peter's vision has zero to do with food. but see that is how the religious verse quoting game works. If you keep reading the passage and read it in context, it is all about calling RACES UNCLEAN. Peter's vision ALSO PROVES THE MESSIAH AND KEFFA NEVER ATE UNCLEAN FOODS TOGETHER, AND IT PROVES THE MESSIAH NEVER MENTIONED ONE WORD TO KEFFA ABOUT FOODS BEING CLEAN OR THE LAW CHANGING AFTER HE DIED!

You said and I quote

"In order to redeem us from the Law, He had to keep it perfectly. A Lamb without blemish indeed. The New Covenant did not start until the death and Resurrection of the Messiah."

Well guess what the new Testament commands us over and over to WALK AS HE WALKED. He kept the Sabbaths, kept the feast, ate clean foods, wore tzitzits, and was a Torah observant Hebrew who rejected man made religion that added and subtracted from the Torah.

Sir if you bothered to study the Torah you would understand the very definition of a False prophet.

The Creator warned the people that HE would empower people so they could perform signs and wonders for the express purpose of testing them too see if they keep the commandments.

The jewish people see the "Church Jesus" as the ultimate test of this. The Hebrew people reject the Messiah not because of the Yahushua of Nazareth, but because of this "Jesus" person the churches present, they reject him because of ignorant post like this from dumbed down christians who have drank the religious coolaid from their churches. Your entire religion is based upon 5-6 verses taken out of Paul which have utterly horrible translation bias.

let me let you in on a little secret my friend.

Messiah did not come to start some new religion. The Messiah and his Talmadim were not christians. His followers were torah observant Hebrews. This was the faith delivered to the saints. The only difference between these people and Karaite Jews was that the believed Yahushua was the Messiah.

The sad thing is that the New Testament utterly condemns the religion of christianity.
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
I am going to correct some of your points here. My answers will be under each one.


1.) Nowhere does the New Testament even imply that the sabbath is the sign that distinguishes God´s people. The Holy Spirit is the the seal or sign of the new covenant. Circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic covenant; the sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic covenant.

There is not one command in the "New Testament" to do away with the Sabbath or to change it to "Sunday" the day which pagans worshiped the sun god for thousands of years. AND NO THE SABBATH WAS NOT GIVEN TO JUST ISRAEL, THE SABBATH WAS GIVEN AT CREATION.

2.) The New Testament nowhere commands Christians to observe either the seventh or the first day of the week as a Christian sabbath.

Correction in YOUR ENGLISH VERSION IT DOES NOT SAY THIS, IN GREEK HEBREWS 4 SPECIFICALLY SPEAKS ABOUT KEEPING THE SABBATH. Paul kept the Sabbaths, taught on the Sabbath, Messiah made it clear he was the master of the Sabbath. IN FACT THE MESSIAH SPEAKING PROPHETICALLY SAID "PRAY THAT YOUR FLIGHT DOES NOT COME ON THE SABBATH. IT IS A UNDENIABLE FACT THAT THE SABBATH WILL BE KEPT DURING THE 1,000 YEAR REIGN.

3.) There is no biblical record of any command to keep the sabbath until the time of Moses. Neither is there any biblical record of people keeping the sabbath until it was given to Israel.

Have you even read the Bible? You might wanna read Genesis. Now look I know you copy and paste this stuff of your favorite "Only bad christians obey Jesus" websites, but good grief man, the Sabbath is given at creation.

4.) Genesis 2:2-3 simply says that God rested ("ceased") on the "seventh day" after His work of creation had ended. Unlike the preceding six days, the seventh day was not bounded by evening and morning -- it was ongoing and open-ended. Furthermore, Genesis mentions no creation ordinance commanding man to rest. Neither does it record any instance of man keeping a weekly sabbath before the Exodus.

No you read this of some freaking internet website. The hebrew in both the Paleo Hebrew and modern Hebrew make it clear this was the Sabbath. IN FACT SABBATH MEANS TO REST AND CEASE FROM YOUR WORKS. SECONDLY WHAT PART OF THE TORAH AND PROPHETS STATING THE SABBATH WAS FOREVER DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? Was the Creator lying or telling a big joke?

5.) The creation ordinances of marriage and dominion over the earth were repeated to Noah after the flood. It is significant that Noah was given no command to keep the sabbath -- further evidence that it was not a creation ordinance. From ancient times the Jews called the commandments given to Noah the "Noachian commandments." They considered these commandments binding on all men. Usually listed as seven, the sabbath commandment was never included among them.

More retarded rubbish. Virtually every country on earth their word for Saturday means Sabbath.

6.) When God made a promissory covenant with Abraham, God gave him the sign of circumcision. Deut. 4:13 and 5:2-3 state that the Ten Commandments covenant (with its sabbath sign) was not given to the fathers of the Hebrew nation. This covenant came 430 years after God first announced His covenant with Abraham (Gal. 3:17).

If you bothered to do any research into the languages the scriptures were written in you would see Paul very much upheld circumcision. CONSTANTINE MADE IT ILLEGAL. Shaul was simply stating that you could be saved before you were circumcised. AND FYI 1/2 THE WORDS TRANSLATED INTO CIRCUMCISION IN YOUR ENGLISH BIBLE MEAN SOMETHING ELSE.

7.) The sabbath was given to Israel (Neh. 9:13-14). Although it was patterned after the creation model, this 24-hour rest was obviously not identical to God´s permanent rest which followed a finished creation (Gen. 2:2-3; Heb. 4:3,4,10). The sabbath was the sign of the Mosaic, Sinaitic, or old covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezek. 20:12). Most scholars now agree there is no evidence of a sabbath institution outside Israel.

The very definition of the "New Covenant" is that the TORAH would be written upon your heart. Once again, have you ever even read and studied the Torah and prophets? 2 things changed and only 2 things. Messiah as Cohen Gadol forever, and Torah written upon your heart.

And yes nations everywhere kept the Sabbath, as I said before nations all over this planet named "Saturday" the Sabbath in their languages. PAGANS DID NOT KEEP THE SABBATH AND WORSHIPED ON SUNDAY

8.) The Old Testament nowhere indicates that Gentile nations should keep the sabbath. Although the sins of Gentile cities and nations are often specified by the prophets, only Israel was ever chided for breaking the sabbath. Paul appears to follow this Old Testament tradition in Romans chapter 1. Although he lists about twenty-two Gentile sins, he does not mention sabbath-breaking.

Israel was to be priest and kings to the entire world! Ancient stones have been found in America thousands of years old in Paleo Hebrew with the 10 commandments INCLUDING THE SABBATH. Once again Paul is listen in Acts keeping the Sabbath with Gentiles 84 weeks in a row! Paul is also listen in Acts keeping the Feast, performing animal sacrifice at the temple for nazarite vows! THE ENTIRE IDEA THAT PAUL WAS TEACHING AGAINST THE TORAH COMES FROM THE PHARISEES!

9.) Orthodox Judaism, both before and after Christ, taught that Gentiles should keep the sabbath only if they were Jewish proselytes.

We do not care what they teach, what the Creator teaches is what matters. Just like we do not care what the Baptist, Methodist, or any other christian cult teaches.

10.) As a Jew, Jesus lived under the institutions of the old covenant. He was circumcised and generally kept the sabbath, Passover, and other old-covenant festivals. Nothing in the entire Law could cease to be binding until Jesus fulfilled it all by His death on the cross (Mat. 5:17-19; John 19:30; Rom. 3:21-25). On the eve of His death Jesus instituted the new covenant and sealed it by His sacrificial death. It took the new-covenant community some time under the leading of the Holy Spirit, however, before i

Once again the new Testament commands that you walk as the Messiah walked when he was alive on earth! Once again the renewed Covenant is TORAH WRITTEN UPON YOUR HEART! Messiah didn't fulfill the entire Torah and prophets either, he fulfilled 1/2 of them in his first coming. The Messiah made it very clear his followers WERE TO DO AND TEACH THE LEAST OF THE TORAH. He made it very clear if you did not live by the Torah you would hear "Depart from me you who are without Torah". Revelations makes it very clear that the Dragon makes war with those who keep the Commandments (The Greek makes it clear the Commandments=Torah). It also makes it clear those given the right to the tree of life are those that keep the commandments and have the testimony of the Messiah. (notice it does not say "Those who pick and choose which commandments they like based upon what they read on the internet)

Sir you really need to stop copy and pasting this foolishness of the internet. You need to get informed and stop drinking the religious coolaid. Your denomination and pastor will not be there with you on judgment day.

I suggest you take the time to understand the entire fight between the Messiah and the Pharisees of his day. YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THE NEW TESTAMENT FULLY UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND THE RELIGIOUS STRUGGLE THAT WAS OCCURING!
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 12:45 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
OP, you're theology is in deep shit.
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 03:25 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Let us flesh this out a little more by looking at the Greek and seeing just exactly what the Messiah said.

Now we know for a fact in the Torah that YHWH told Moses that he would raise up a prophet like unto Moses (Someone who hears directly from YHWH), and that if the people did not OBEY him, YHWH would require it of them.

: "Do not assume that I have come to weaken, dismantle, invalidate, or abolish (kataluso – loosen, tear down, or dissolve, put an end to, do away with, or annul) the Torah (nomos – Law) or the Prophets. I have not come to do away with it, but instead to completely fulfill/Teach/Flesh out it." (Mattityahu/Matthew 5:17) FYI the Torah and the prophets are not all fulfilled there are hundreds of prophecies that remian!

"Truly (amein – this is reliable and trustworthy) I say to you, till heaven and the earth pass away not one jot (iota – the smallest letter in Hebrew) nor tittle (keraia – the top stroke of Hebrew letters) shall be passed by (parerchomai – be ignored or disobeyed, be disregarded) from that which was established in the Towrah until the time and place it all happens." (Mattityahu/Matthew 5:18)

So right there the Messiah himself just blew any lawless argument out of the water. I ask you, is the Universe still here? Does planet earth still exist?

"Therefore, whoever dismisses (luo – does away with, dissolves, invalidates, or abolishes) the least of these commandments (entole – precepts, prescriptions, and authoritative directions) or teaches (didasko – indoctrinates or instructs) people to do the same, they will be called the least important (elachistos – will be considered to be so small as to be insignificant and undignified) in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever performs (poieomai – accomplishes and celebrates, practices and profits from) them, and teaches them, they will be called the greatest and most important in the kingdom of heaven." (Mattityahu/Matthew 5:19) This should utterly terrify every christian who just read this. Here is a warning from the Messiah himself if you teach anyone to not keep the smallest part of Torah, YOU WILL BE NOTHING IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN!

Christians just love the "amg when Geeeezusss died we no longer have to obey geeeeezzuzzz argument"

let us blow that out of the water also.

he takes us forward to judgment day, shows us a group of religious people on the planet that call him "Lord", BUT DO NOT DO WHAT HE SAYS. They call him "Lord", but do not DO WHAT HIS FATHER SAYS. They do many wonderful works in his name! BUT THEY REFUSE TO OBEY HIS TEACHINGS.

The Greek literally says DEPART FROM ME YOU WHO ARE WITHOUT TORAH, I NEVER KNEW YOU.

Friends what group on planet earth IN DIRECT OPPOSITION TO WHAT YHWH TEACHES AND WHAT MESSIAH TEACHES, DOES MANY WONDERFUL WORKS IN THE NAME OF MESSIAH, BUT TEACHES THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT HE DID? WHAT GROUP ON EARTH TEACHES THE TORAH WAS ABOLISHED?

now let us look at the warning Shimon Keffa gives regarding Shaul's letters. Let me make this even more literal for you without a biased translation.

Friends, Shaul is indeed our brother, but he writes some things that can be extremely hard to understand, SO I AM TELLING YOU BEFORE HAND, SO BE ON YOUR GUARD. IF YOU TAKE ONE WORD OF SHAUL'S LETTERS AS A EXCUSE FOR NOT KEEPING THE TORAH, YOU DO THIS TO YOUR OWN DESTRUCTION.

Folks if you do not understand Ultra Orthodox Judaism which is the exact modern version of the Pharisee religion, you will NEVER UNDERSTAND 90% OF WHAT PAUL IS TALKING ABOUT. In fact all of Chapter Romans 14 is about Rabbinical Halakuh, and Gentiles have zero idea what any of it means. By very definition given through the entire Scriptures from Genesis to Revelations, IF YOU DO NOT OBEY THE MESSIAH IT IS YOUR REAR END.

Therefor if you take 5-6 verses taken out of Paul's letters as a excuse to abolish the Torah (In direct opposition to what the Messiah taught, THE MESSIAH WARNED YOU STRAIGHT FROM THE START ABOUT ABOLISHING THE TORAH OR TEACHING EVEN ONE JOT OF IT WAS ABOLISHED, YOU CAN KISS YOUR TICKET TO HEAVEN GOODBYE.

Now friends you can obey the Messiah, and the scriptures, or you can obey the religious people that TELL YOU THAT IF YOU OBEY GOD OR OBEY JESUS YOU ARE ATTACKING THE GRACE OF JESUS! THINK ABOUT HOW STUPID THIS ARGUMENT IS!

These same people tell you "amg looking at the hebrew scriptures from a Hebraic point of view is dangerous"

Wake up people!
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 03:37 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
hey drunk g#d could u tell me how is christ connected solomon
Goddrunk  (OP)

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04/02/2010 04:21 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
OP, you're theology is in deep shit.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 926383


Prove it.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Goddrunk  (OP)

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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
hey drunk g#d could u tell me how is christ connected solomon
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 923838


That doesn't make any sense.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Goddrunk  (OP)

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04/02/2010 04:26 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
The Dangers of Legalism

Paul emphasized that the law was a yoke of bondage from which the Christian had been set free.38 Paul made no distinction between moral and ceremonial law. It was all part of that old covenant which was done away in Christ.39 It was "nailed to the cross."40 This is the central teaching of the New Testament.

There are no grounds for imposing the Sabbath on the Christian, who is free from the burden of the law's demands. The Spirit of Christ enables him to fulfill God's will apart from the external observances of the law.

The Sabbath is mentioned along with the festivals and new moons, all of which are declared to be "only a shadow of what is to come."41 To "observe days, and months, and seasons, and years" is deemed to be slaves to "the weak and beggarly elemental spirits."42 The ritual observance of days is a characteristic of "the man who is weak in faith."43

The writer of Hebrews emphasizes that the Sabbath is also a type of "God's rest" which is an inheritance of all the people of God.44 We are urged, in a larger sense, to "strive to enter that rest."

[link to www.khouse.org]
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 04:32 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
The Dangers of Legalism


There are no grounds for imposing the Sabbath on the Christian, who is free from the burden of the law's demands.
 Quoting: Goddrunk



Anarchist....
nzreva
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04/02/2010 04:40 PM
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I do keep and honor the things that are written in my heart that has been given to me. I never stop getting more understanding, great life. No outside interference.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
The Dangers of Legalism

Paul emphasized that the law was a yoke of bondage from which the Christian had been set free.38 Paul made no distinction between moral and ceremonial law. It was all part of that old covenant which was done away in Christ.39 It was "nailed to the cross."40 This is the central teaching of the New Testament.

There are no grounds for imposing the Sabbath on the Christian, who is free from the burden of the law's demands. The Spirit of Christ enables him to fulfill God's will apart from the external observances of the law.

The Sabbath is mentioned along with the festivals and new moons, all of which are declared to be "only a shadow of what is to come."41 To "observe days, and months, and seasons, and years" is deemed to be slaves to "the weak and beggarly elemental spirits."42 The ritual observance of days is a characteristic of "the man who is weak in faith."43

The writer of Hebrews emphasizes that the Sabbath is also a type of "God's rest" which is an inheritance of all the people of God.44 We are urged, in a larger sense, to "strive to enter that rest."

[link to www.khouse.org]
 Quoting: Goddrunk


Once again sir, khouse.org does not outrank the Messiah. You are a moron if you obey them rather then the Messiah.

And once again. The bible was not written in King James English.

Paul literally says "let no pagan judge you in regard to meat that is clean according to Torah, or in regards to the Sabbath, or the new Moon, or the feast, all of which are set apart rehearsals of good things to come FOR THE BODY of Messiah.

And I already told you that Hebrews specifically says there remains a Sabbath keeping for the people of Elohim.

Thirdly I suggest you read Acts Chapter 14. Observing days times and seasons is a TORAH CONCEPT. Paul first encounter with the galatians is listed in Acts 14. he heals a man and they think he is Jupiter and his Companion is Hermes. Jupiter was born on December 25th..........The days, times , and seasons the PAGAN GALATIANS WHO WERE GENTILES AND NEVER KNEW GOD OR NEVER KEPT THE TORAH IN THE FIRST PLACE WAS PAGAN HOLIDAYS. They were going back to their old vommit and most likely celebrating December 25th and observing "easter" the babylonian sex and fertility goddess.

But hey, wait just one sec, WE ARE NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT WHAT PAUL SAID, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHAT THE MESSIAH SAID. WHAT PAUL MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE SAID DOES NOT EVEN MATTER IN COMPARISON TO WHAT MESSIAH SAID.

In fact, the very problem here is that you disregard what the Messiah said and always go back to what your god Paul said. And yes my friend you have made Paul your god, and you have sat him upon the throne of the Creator and the Messiah. Because you ignore YHWH, you ignore Messiah, and obey what Paul says because some dumbass that does not speak one lick of Greek or Hebrew told you the KJV is infallible.

Let me let you in on a little secret.

#1 Paul was not crucified for you
#2 Paul is not the Messiah
#3 Paul is not the Master of the Messiah
#4 Messiah is the Boss of Paul
#5 Messiah is the prophet you must obey NOT PAUL
#6 Paul does not sit down at the right hand of the Creator
#7 All power is not given to Paul
#8 Messiah gets the final say about the Torah, NOT PAUL
#9 If you obey what you think Paul is saying, while rejecting the teachings of the Messiah, you in fact prove that you are Anti-Messiah and a follower of MAN.

You are going to have to make a big choice in your life.

You either

A. Obey the Messiah, and obey the Creator's commands, which are not a burden and are the perfect law of liberty, said laws teach you to love YHWH the way he wants, and love your neighbor as yourself.............OR

B. Take the wide road to hell, reject the teachings of the Creator and the Messiah, and obey some preacher, or 2-3 verses in your english Bible that are the exact opposite of what the Messiah teaches. Either A. Messiah is Correct in the KJV or B. Paul is. B leads to the pit my friend, Messiah warned you straight from the start.

I cannot stress to you enough when I tell you the King James and other English versions have 1900+ years of biased church doctrine behind them. These bastards never tell you then when Paul says "let all meat be received with thanksgiving" that the word meat is the Greek word Broma, which is the Greek version of Kosher, that means clean according to the Torah. I hope you understand this. Paul never once says all foods are clean in the Greek. Paul is actually telling pagans not to judge them for eating CLEAN FOOD.

Now I am sure alot of this may offend you because you have grown up being brainwashed in Circe, but I suggest you research everything I have written on this thread.

You need to change your entire way of thinking to this:

I obey the Creator, I obey the Messiah, and if I see something in my KJ "version" of the Bible that contradicts the Messiah, THEN I PLAY IT SAFE AND OBEY THE MESSIAH. If you do not you are a fool.

You also need to understand Messiah lived in a culture 2,000 years removed from our own. he was not a American christian. He was a Torah observant Hebrew who rejected man made religion that added and subtracted from the RELIGION HIS FATHER STARTED.
Goddrunk  (OP)

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04/02/2010 05:49 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Sorry, but you're wrong. The Bible does not say we have to keep the Sabbath or the Festivals. Paul does not teach we need to either, nor did Jesus.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 06:08 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Sorry, but you're wrong. The Bible does not say we have to keep the Sabbath or the Festivals. Paul does not teach we need to either, nor did Jesus.
 Quoting: Goddrunk


No I am not wrong. Unlike you I have invested thousands of man hours into this. Unlike you I can read Greek and Hebrew. Unlike you I want the truth whether in conflicts with my religious view points or not. Unlike you I go through the scriptures with Greek text, concordances, and Lexicons to make sure things are rendered correctly. Unlike you I am very aware of church history. I am very aware there are over 5,700 Greek text which have been found and none of them 100% agree.

The very fact your name is "Goddrunk" and you tell everyone that you are a shill and agent should be all anyone needs to read.

But hey, you have the freewill to believe and participate in whatever you wish. After all the Messiah said the road and gate to the pit was large and easy, and grace only christianity is the largest and easiest religion on earth, so have fun! I have done my job, i warned you and correct your teachings, so your blood and anyone who has read my post is not on my hands.

Shaul was not joking when he called the Anti-Messiah the TORAHLESS ONE that leads his TORAHLESS followers to destruction.

Believe as you wish though.

Quite frankly the fact that Christians teach they are under grace and free to do as they wish (as long as they do not obey the Creator or the Messiah.....) is quite simply SATANISM.

And people wonder why the Satanic Bible says the christian church is their best friend...............

better wake up friend.
Goddrunk  (OP)

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04/02/2010 06:28 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Actually, you are wrong. I've proven my point enough in previous posts. Studying hours doesn't prove that you know your stuff. You've already shown to me you don't.

Last Edited by Aenon on 04/02/2010 06:29 PM
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Nyhee7
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04/02/2010 06:30 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Sorry, but you're wrong. The Bible does not say we have to keep the Sabbath or the Festivals. Paul does not teach we need to either, nor did Jesus.
 Quoting: Goddrunk



Paul seems to be double minded about the gentiles keeping the law. Remember, those letters were not all written on the same day. There was time and experience passing as each letter was written, sometimes by a factor of twenty years, or so scholars claim.

Paul told the gentiles, early on, just be yourselves. That didn't work. So later he gave them the Pharisaical laws instead of the laws of Moses.

But you do make a mistake, Jesus did teach us to keep the law, and to keep it with extreme mercy. To have taught us not to keep the law would have been to break the law.

Deuteronomy 6:7

And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

Deuteronomy 11:19

And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.


This is where Jesus taught us to keep the law and to teach it...

Matthew 5

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So, Goddrunk, you say that you don't equate Hebrew Christianity with siding with the anti-christ, yet you have not changed the name of your thread. I suspect you do still consider us dangerous. And, that you are not as honest as you seem to try to project.

As long as you say Jesus did not say we should teach the law, you are calling Jesus a liar, and you are yourself, being a liar.
Goddrunk  (OP)

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04/02/2010 06:33 PM
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Re: The Possible Dangers of the Hebrew Christian Movements - Law/Works Vs. Gospel/Grace (Very Important Message )
Again, no one can prove that Jesus taught we must keep the Sabbath. I am not convinced, because there is no scriptural proof that we must.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15
Anonymous Coward
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04/02/2010 06:40 PM
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Again, no one can prove that Jesus taught we must keep the Sabbath. I am not convinced, because there is no scriptural proof that we must.
 Quoting: Goddrunk


And he never taught we have to go to church every Sunday....
Goddrunk  (OP)

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Again, no one can prove that Jesus taught we must keep the Sabbath. I am not convinced, because there is no scriptural proof that we must.


And he never taught we have to go to church every Sunday....
 Quoting: Sugarelf


Correct.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
- Matthew 11:15





GLP