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The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933

 
mathetes
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05/26/2010 09:48 PM
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The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
So much for hyper-inflation....as I've said on here for over 3 yrs we will experience deflation

The M3 money supply in the United States is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933, despite near zero interest rates and the biggest fiscal blitz in history.


The stock of money in the US fell from $14.2 trillion to $13.9 trillion in the three months to April, amounting to an annual rate of contraction of 9.6pc

The M3 figures - which include broad range of bank accounts and are tracked by British and European monetarists for warning signals about the direction of the US economy a year or so in advance - began shrinking last summer. The pace has since quickened.

The stock of money fell from $14.2 trillion to $13.9 trillion in the three months to April, amounting to an annual rate of contraction of 9.6pc. The assets of insitutional money market funds fell at a 37pc rate, the sharpest drop ever.

"It’s frightening," said Professor Tim Congdon from International Monetary Research. "The plunge in M3 has no precedent since the Great Depression. The dominant reason for this is that regulators across the world are pressing banks to raise capital asset ratios and to shrink their risk assets. This is why the US is not recovering properly," he said.

The US authorities have an entirely different explanation for the failure of stimulus measures to gain full traction. They are opting instead for yet further doses of Keynesian spending, despite warnings from the IMF that the gross public debt of the US will reach 97pc of GDP next year and 110pc by 2015.

Larry Summers, President Barack Obama’s top economic adviser, has asked Congress to "grit its teeth" and approve a fresh fiscal boost of $200bn to keep growth on track. "We are nearly 8m jobs short of normal employment. For millions of Americans the economic emergency grinds on," he said.

David Rosenberg from Gluskin Sheff said the White House appears to have reversed course just weeks after Mr Obama vowed to rein in a budget deficit of $1.5 trillion (9.4pc of GDP) this year and set up a commission to target cuts. "You truly cannot make this stuff up. The US governnment is freaked out about the prospect of a double-dip," he said.

The White House request is a tacit admission that the economy is already losing thrust and may stall later this year as stimulus from the original $800bn package starts to fade.

Recent data have been mixed. Durable goods orders jumped 2.9pc in April but house prices have been falling for several months and mortgage applications have dropped to a 13-year low. The ECRI leading index of US economic activity has been sliding continuously since its peak in October, suffering the steepest one-week drop ever recorded in mid-May.

Mr Summers acknowledged in a speech this week that the eurozone crisis had shone a spotlight on the dangers of spiralling public debt. He said deficit spending delays the day of reckoning and leaves the US at the mercy of foreign creditors. Ultimately, "failure begets failure" in fiscal policy as the logic of compound interest does its worst.

However, Mr Summers said it would be "pennywise and pound foolish" to skimp just as the kindling wood of recovery starts to catch fire. He said fiscal policy comes into its own at at time when the economy "faces a liquidity trap" and the Fed is constrained by zero interest rates.

Mr Congdon said the Obama policy risks repeating the strategic errors of Japan, which pushed debt to dangerously high levels with one fiscal boost after another during its Lost Decade, instead of resorting to full-blown "Friedmanite" monetary stimulus.

"Fiscal policy does not work. The US has just tried the biggest fiscal experiment in history and it has failed. What matters is the quantity of money and in extremis that can be increased easily by quantititave easing. If the Fed doesn’t act, a double-dip recession is a virtual certainty," he said.

Mr Congdon said the dominant voices in US policy-making - Nobel laureates Paul Krugman and Joe Stiglitz, as well as Mr Summers and Fed chair Ben Bernanke - are all Keynesians of different stripes who "despise traditional monetary theory and have a religious aversion to any mention of the quantity of money". The great opus by Milton Friedman and Anna Schwartz - The Monetary History of the United States - has been left to gather dust.

Mr Bernanke no longer pays attention to the M3 data. The bank stopped publishing the data five years ago, deeming it too erratic to be of much use.

This may have been a serious error since double-digit growth of M3 during the US housing bubble gave clear warnings that the boom was out of control. The sudden slowdown in M3 in early to mid-2008 - just as the Fed raised rates - gave a second warning that the economy was about to go into a nosedive.

Mr Bernanke built his academic reputation on the study of the credit mechanism. This model offers a radically different theory for how the financial system works. While so-called "creditism" has become the new orthodoxy in US central banking, it has not yet been tested over time and may yet prove to be a misadventure.

Paul Ashworth at Capital Economics said the decline in M3 is worrying and points to a growing risk of deflation. "Core inflation is already the lowest since 1966, so we don’t have much margin for error here. Deflation becomes a threat if it goes on long enough to become entrenched," he said.

However, Mr Ashworth warned against a mechanical interpretation of money supply figures. "You could argue that M3 has been going down because people have been taking their money out of accounts to buy stocks, property and other assets," he said.

Events may soon tell us whether this is benign or malign. It is certainly remarkable.

[link to www.telegraph.co.uk]
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
mathetes  (OP)

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05/26/2010 10:06 PM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
Where are all of the hyper-inflationistas?

The fact is so much wealth has been sucked out of our economy even the outrageous govt. money pump has not slowed the drag down

The simple fact is... no wage increases = no inflation

How many people do you know that are getting raises... Much less keeping their jobs
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Arctec

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05/26/2010 10:09 PM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
What about the cost of food?
Hasn't it inflated?
Anonymous Coward
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05/26/2010 10:09 PM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
Nobody pay's attention to Money Supply any more.

Have not payed any attention to it since 1997.

whatever
Anonymous Coward
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05/26/2010 10:13 PM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
"You could argue that M3 has been going down because people have been taking their money out of accounts to buy stocks, property and other assets," he said.

 Quoting: mathetes


Yeah, I've been taking money out of my account to invest in Ramen Noodle assets.
mathetes  (OP)

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05/26/2010 10:18 PM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
What about the cost of food?
Hasn't it inflated?
 Quoting: Arctec

Yes it has...food production is directly related to fuel costs. Food prices may never go down which is a real killer for the poor
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Dash Riprock

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05/26/2010 10:24 PM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
I agree...deflation will occur no matter how much the idiots in charge print. Why? because the TBTF's are holding on to it all, because they are still INSOLVENT...
mathetes  (OP)

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05/26/2010 11:01 PM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
I agree...deflation will occur no matter how much the idiots in charge print. Why? because the TBTF's are holding on to it all, because they are still INSOLVENT...
 Quoting: Dash Riprock

Well said...plus if we get hyper-deflation the bankers WIN

They get all the money plus all the Real Estate
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Anonymous Coward
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05/26/2010 11:18 PM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
Mr Bernanke built his academic reputation on the study of the credit mechanism. This model offers a radically different theory for how the financial system works. While so-called "creditism" has become the new orthodoxy in US central banking, it has not yet been tested over time and may yet prove to be a misadventure.

builds a model from a THEORY on how the financial system works. My nine year old understands you cant continue to spend money you dont have. Back to the basics with these quacks.
Anonymous Coward
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05/26/2010 11:19 PM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
Mr Bernanke built his academic reputation on the study of the credit mechanism. This model offers a radically different theory for how the financial system works. While so-called "creditism" has become the new orthodoxy in US central banking, it has not yet been tested over time and may yet prove to be a misadventure.

builds a model from a THEORY on how the financial system works. My nine year old understands you cant continue to spend money you dont have. Back to the basics with these quacks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 889811


All Fiat currency is theory ...

and so is the law attatched to it ...
Anonymous Coward
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05/26/2010 11:34 PM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
Mr Bernanke built his academic reputation on the study of the credit mechanism. This model offers a radically different theory for how the financial system works. While so-called "creditism" has become the new orthodoxy in US central banking, it has not yet been tested over time and may yet prove to be a misadventure.

builds a model from a THEORY on how the financial system works. My nine year old understands you cant continue to spend money you dont have. Back to the basics with these quacks.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 889811



Seriously are they scientists or doctors with models and theories. Money is simple math, bankers, not mad scientists.
Anonymous Coward
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05/26/2010 11:37 PM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
I agree...deflation will occur no matter how much the idiots in charge print. Why? because the TBTF's are holding on to it all, because they are still INSOLVENT...

Well said...plus if we get hyper-deflation the bankers WIN

They get all the money plus all the Real Estate
 Quoting: mathetes


Hyper-deflation = bankers lose. End of the franchise and their lily-white bloated corpses hanging from lampposts, right beside their favourite whore politician.

I'll make it really easy for you all. In a currency system where the unit of account is backed by debt (US treasuries), hyper-deflation will send the value of the currency to infinity and make it impossible for government to collect revenues (due to extreme economic impairment, illiquidity and general insolvency) in order to even service the interest component of the debt, let alone roll it over. Basically the currency will go from over-valued to zero in months flat as the debt underlying the value of the currency becomes impaired (unpayable). The whole western hemisphere is at about that point right now.
Anonymous Coward
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05/27/2010 12:21 AM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
DEFLATION occuring in full.

Cash is King and zero coupon bonds will make you rich.
Anonymous Coward
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05/27/2010 12:24 AM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
TRUE!
Dash Riprock

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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
I agree...deflation will occur no matter how much the idiots in charge print. Why? because the TBTF's are holding on to it all, because they are still INSOLVENT...

Well said...plus if we get hyper-deflation the bankers WIN

They get all the money plus all the Real Estate


Hyper-deflation = bankers lose. End of the franchise and their lily-white bloated corpses hanging from lampposts, right beside their favourite whore politician.

I'll make it really easy for you all. In a currency system where the unit of account is backed by debt (US treasuries), hyper-deflation will send the value of the currency to infinity and make it impossible for government to collect revenues (due to extreme economic impairment, illiquidity and general insolvency) in order to even service the interest component of the debt, let alone roll it over. Basically the currency will go from over-valued to zero in months flat as the debt underlying the value of the currency becomes impaired (unpayable). The whole western hemisphere is at about that point right now.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 724652


That's why you're seeing the race to the bottom in currency devaluation. Last currency standing loses. The USD will be left twisting in the wind, and the US will be balkanized as a result.

Last Edited by Cognitive Dissonance on 05/27/2010 12:37 AM
Anonymous Coward
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05/27/2010 12:45 AM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
Nobody pay's attention to Money Supply any more.

Have not payed any attention to it since 1997.

whatever
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 982814


true dat

Money Supply is irrelevant since the debt is already being monetized.

nice try op
Anonymous Coward
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05/27/2010 01:05 AM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
Where are all of the hyper-inflationistas?

The fact is so much wealth has been sucked out of our economy even the outrageous govt. money pump has not slowed the drag down

The simple fact is... no wage increases = no inflation

How many people do you know that are getting raises... Much less keeping their jobs
 Quoting: mathetes


wtf

that's seriously flawed logic, bro

you're completely ignoring the fact that our economy was founded in 1933 on manipulated interest rates that directly effect the amount of available currency

get your head out of your ass you feckin moran shill
Anonymous Coward
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05/27/2010 01:06 AM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
What about the cost of food?
Hasn't it inflated?

Yes it has...food production is directly related to fuel costs. Food prices may never go down which is a real killer for the poor
 Quoting: mathetes


Exactly - people fail to understand that monetary inflation/deflation doesn't necessarily show up in consumer prices, particularly in the short term.

It's not just fuel prices though - grocery stores, etc. have been raising the margins on some items that are must haves in order to offset lower sales.

But most people who bark on about hyperinflation in the US are utterly and completely ignorant of monetary theories and of economic history. I don't blame them - I believe sometimes misleading information is deliberately spread.
Anonymous Coward
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05/27/2010 01:18 AM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
OP is right.

We've passed debt saturation.

[link to www.businessinsider.com]

From the article:

Macroeconomic DEBT SATURATION occurred causing a phase transition with our debt relationship. This is because total income can no longer support total debt. In the third quarter of 2009 each dollar of debt added produced NEGATIVE 15 cents of productivity, and at the end of 2009, each dollar of new debt now SUBTRACTS 45 cents from GDP!
mathetes  (OP)

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05/27/2010 02:23 AM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
OP is right.

We've passed debt saturation.

[link to www.businessinsider.com]

From the article:

Macroeconomic DEBT SATURATION occurred causing a phase transition with our debt relationship. This is because total income can no longer support total debt. In the third quarter of 2009 each dollar of debt added produced NEGATIVE 15 cents of productivity, and at the end of 2009, each dollar of new debt now SUBTRACTS 45 cents from GDP!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 760572

Great article! Its not about anybody being right or wrong it about the facts.

The fact is inflation, much less hyper-inflation CANNOT occur without wage increases
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Resister

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05/27/2010 11:37 AM

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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
Please forgive the stupid question, but what is "M3 money"?
"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty... Let them take arms... What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. " - Thomas Jefferson in 1787
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05/27/2010 11:40 AM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
Where are all of the hyper-inflationistas?

The fact is so much wealth has been sucked out of our economy even the outrageous govt. money pump has not slowed the drag down

The simple fact is... no wage increases = no inflation

How many people do you know that are getting raises... Much less keeping their jobs
 Quoting: mathetes


You are on it. Wow, amazing no one has mentioned this. This is not good folks. United States is in bigger trouble than I could ever imagine.
ttown_okie
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05/27/2010 11:52 AM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
Where are all of the hyper-inflationistas?

The fact is so much wealth has been sucked out of our economy even the outrageous govt. money pump has not slowed the drag down

The simple fact is... no wage increases = no inflation

How many people do you know that are getting raises... Much less keeping their jobs
 Quoting: mathetes



The cost of labor is the true measure of inflation... just thought I'd share. but that doesn't meean the stock market will go down, it is rigged with monopoly money that can be handed out any time it is desired.
Anonymous Coward
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05/27/2010 11:54 AM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
Wages were flat or declining in Wiemar Germany during hyperinflation.
Anonymous Coward
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05/27/2010 11:58 AM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
OP is right.

We've passed debt saturation.

[link to www.businessinsider.com]

From the article:

Macroeconomic DEBT SATURATION occurred causing a phase transition with our debt relationship. This is because total income can no longer support total debt. In the third quarter of 2009 each dollar of debt added produced NEGATIVE 15 cents of productivity, and at the end of 2009, each dollar of new debt now SUBTRACTS 45 cents from GDP!

Great article! Its not about anybody being right or wrong it about the facts.

The fact is inflation, much less hyper-inflation CANNOT occur without wage increases
 Quoting: mathetes


Yes, they can. In Wiemar Germany, it was the carry trade and speculation against the DM that brought on hyperinflation. Wages there were actually flat or declining.

I understand the Fed has been very busy as of late extending credit to meet foreign demand for their scrip.
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
Where are all of the hyper-inflationistas?
 Quoting: mathetes


noticed the price of gold in euros lately? up 10% in a month?
mathetes  (OP)

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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
Wages were flat or declining in Wiemar Germany during hyperinflation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 983495

Hardly...real wages increased at a rate greater than the National income form 1924-1929

You can't have hyperinflation unless wages keep pace with prices


[link to books.google.com]
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Anonymous Coward
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05/27/2010 06:39 PM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
I agree. There is deflation, not hyper inflation. Didn't long term rates get dropped again last week? Gold is only half the price it was in 1980.
Anonymous Coward
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05/28/2010 12:24 AM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
In 2009, my company gave everyone a 5% pay cut and laid off people. So much for wage inflation.
Anonymous Coward
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05/28/2010 01:54 AM
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Re: The M3 money supply in the U.S. is contracting at an accelerating rate that now matches the average decline seen from 1929 to 1933
Wages were flat or declining in Wiemar Germany during hyperinflation.

Hardly...real wages increased at a rate greater than the National income form 1924-1929

You can't have hyperinflation unless wages keep pace with prices


[link to books.google.com]
 Quoting: mathetes


What does your link show? All I'm getting is a chapter on Christian trade union politics.

Here is a better one:

Some Common Fallacies About Inflation and Deflation: the Weimar Nightmare in Review [link to jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com]

CHECK OUT THIS GRAPHIC: [link to 2.bp.blogspot.com]





GLP