If the natural beauty of a great and noble soul surpasses all corporeal beauty, how much more true is this of the supernatural beauty that is had thro | |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 998268 United States 06/09/2010 07:54 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: If the natural beauty of a great and noble soul surpasses all corporeal beauty, how much more true is this of the supernatural beauty that is had thro This is the only way God can be in us. Every time I read about God's grace, "sanctifying grace"...our being in the "state of grace" I desire to go to Confession, no matter how hard it is to do. No one likes to go to Confession. If you are a non-Catholic Christian, you have to, from your heart examine your conscience, confess your sins to God. I've never read it completely, just heard or read a few of the verses. Father Scheeben's writing makes me want to read the Old Testament book, Canticle of Canticles. [link to www.drbo.org] |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 998268 United States 06/10/2010 04:06 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: If the natural beauty of a great and noble soul surpasses all corporeal beauty, how much more true is this of the supernatural beauty that is had thro So sorry, I couldn't fit this beautiful quote into the thread title. "How great this beauty is and of what kind—that no mortal can express or understand. If the natural beauty of a great and noble soul surpasses all corporeal beauty, how much more true is this of the supernatural beauty that is had through grace?" |
PalmOfDeborah
User ID: 959415 United States 06/12/2010 08:30 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: If the natural beauty of a great and noble soul surpasses all corporeal beauty, how much more true is this of the supernatural beauty that is had thro CATECHISM (610-611, 621, 1339) The Last Supper was a real sacrifice in which Christ's blood was poured out for our sins in the cup. BIBLE (1 Peter 2:24) The Last Supper was a Passover meal. Christ's blood was poured out for our sins at the cross. 2. CATECHISM (1373-1377) The bread and wine become the real body and blood of Christ. BIBLE (1 Corinthians 11:23-25) The bread and wine are symbols of the body and blood of Christ. 3. CATECHISM (1374, 1377) Christ's body and blood exist wholly and entirely in every fragment of consecrated bread and wine in every Roman Catholic church around the world. BIBLE (Hebrews 10:12,13) Christ is bodily present in heaven. 4. CATECHISM (1392, 1405, 1419) The consecrated bread and wine are heavenly food which help one to attain to eternal life. BIBLE (Luke 22:19) The bread and wine are symbols which help one to remember Christ. 5. CATECHISM (1378-1381) God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. BIBLE (Exodus 20:4,5; Isaiah 42:8) God forbids the worship of any object, even those intended to represent Him. 6. CATECHISM (1142, 1547, 1577) Christ has ordained certain men to a ministerial priesthood to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross. BIBLE (1Peter 2:5-10; Hebrews 13:15; Romans 12:1) Christ has ordained every believer to a holy and royal priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices, the praise of their lips, and lives yielded to God. 7. CATECHISM (1085,1365-1367) The Sacrifice of the Mass is the sacrifice of the cross. Only the manner in which it is offered is different. BIBLE (Mark 15:21-41) The sacrifice of the cross is a historical event. It occurred once, approximately 2000 years ago, outside Jerusalem. 8. CATECHISM (1323, 1382) The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass. BIBLE (John 19:30) The sacrifice of the cross is finished. 9. CATECHISM (1353, 1362, 1364, 1367, 1409) The Mass makes Christ present in His death and victimhood. BIBLE (Revelation 1:17,18; Romans 6:9,10) Christ cannot be made present in His death and victimhood, for He has risen and is alive forevermore. 10. CATECHISM (1354, 1357) At each Mass, the priest re-presents to the Father the sacrifice of Christ. BIBLE (Hebrews 9:24-28) Christ presented the sacrifice of Himself to the Father once at the consummation of the ages. 11. CATECHISM (1367, 1371, 1414) The Mass is an unbloody sacrifice which atones for the sins of the living and the dead. BIBLE (Leviticus 17:11, Hebrews 9:22) Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. 12. CATECHISM (1371, 1414) Each Sacrifice of the Mass appeases God's wrath against sin. BIBLE (Hebrews 10:12-18) The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God's wrath against sin. 13. CATECHISM (1366, 1407) The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the Sacrifice of the Mass. BIBLE (Ephesians 1:3-14) Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith. 14. CATECHISM (1364, 1405, 1846) The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the Sacrifice of the Mass. BIBLE (Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 1:3) The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross. 15. CATECHISM (1323, 1382, 1405, 1407) The Church is to continue the sacrifice of Christ for the salvation of the world. BIBLE (1 Corinthians 11:26) The church is to proclaim the Lord's death for the salvation of the world. ------------------------------------------------------------ WHAT SAY YOU? Last Edited by PalmOfDeborah on 06/12/2010 08:34 PM The greatest illusion is the illusion of separation. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 944713 United States 06/12/2010 08:32 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 998268 United States 06/13/2010 06:29 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: If the natural beauty of a great and noble soul surpasses all corporeal beauty, how much more true is this of the supernatural beauty that is had thro 1. Quoting: PalmOfDeborahCATECHISM (610-611, 621, 1339) The Last Supper was a real sacrifice in which Christ's blood was poured out for our sins in the cup. BIBLE (1 Peter 2:24) The Last Supper was a Passover meal. Christ's blood was poured out for our sins at the cross. 2. CATECHISM (1373-1377) The bread and wine become the real body and blood of Christ. BIBLE (1 Corinthians 11:23-25) The bread and wine are symbols of the body and blood of Christ. 3. CATECHISM (1374, 1377) Christ's body and blood exist wholly and entirely in every fragment of consecrated bread and wine in every Roman Catholic church around the world. BIBLE (Hebrews 10:12,13) Christ is bodily present in heaven. 4. CATECHISM (1392, 1405, 1419) The consecrated bread and wine are heavenly food which help one to attain to eternal life. BIBLE (Luke 22:19) The bread and wine are symbols which help one to remember Christ. 5. CATECHISM (1378-1381) God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. BIBLE (Exodus 20:4,5; Isaiah 42:8) God forbids the worship of any object, even those intended to represent Him. 6. CATECHISM (1142, 1547, 1577) Christ has ordained certain men to a ministerial priesthood to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross. BIBLE (1Peter 2:5-10; Hebrews 13:15; Romans 12:1) Christ has ordained every believer to a holy and royal priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices, the praise of their lips, and lives yielded to God. 7. CATECHISM (1085,1365-1367) The Sacrifice of the Mass is the sacrifice of the cross. Only the manner in which it is offered is different. BIBLE (Mark 15:21-41) The sacrifice of the cross is a historical event. It occurred once, approximately 2000 years ago, outside Jerusalem.... ------------------------------------------------------------ WHAT SAY YOU? Deborah, Hi, I only want to convince you the Holy Eucharist is true. Protestants follow a man, Martin Luther(not God) who in the 16th century denied the Holy Eucharist. I thought giving an example of an Apostle, Paul's words in Scripture -1Cor 11:26-29- proves Paul's belief in Jesus' words, the Catholic teaching since 33 A.D. I can reply to the list. The first sentence (in-bold) didn't sound like Catholic teaching, how could it come from the Catechism? I checked, it doesn't. It comes from a book by an Evangelical anti-Catholic named James McCarthy. They are HIS words. The Book is entitled ~ Roman Catholicism, What You need to Know About Salvation which lists: 62 Prime Errors of Roman Catholicism (LOL) The Last Supper was a real sacrifice in which Christ's blood was poured out for our sins in the cup. Mr. McCarthy's first sentence is #25 in the list of 62. I was right, they are not from Catechism. I'll post the true paragraphs he listed. This is why people should ask a Catholic and read Catholic writings (books by and about the saints), the Catholic Bible (www.drbo.org), the actual Catechism of the Catholic Church (online). I wondered now about Mr McCarthy. I did a search, James McCarthy has written other anti-Catholic books. And seems the case often, McCarthy is a fallen away Catholic. A former Protestant minister who knows McCarthy shared: Catholic apologist Robert Sungenis: "If you think I am being too hard on anti-Catholic Protestants, read on. In May 1995, I attempted to schedule a debate with another anti-Catholic Evangelical, James G. McCarthy. In 1995 he published The Gospel According to Rome, a 400-page book in which he purports to list all the Catholic abuses of Scripture. I know Jim well. We attended the same Fundamentalist church before I became Catholic in 1992. Jim spent two hours in my living room trying to convince me not to convert. The issue we discussed was sola scriptura. Frustrated that he couldn't find one clear verse in the Bible to support his contention, he left in a huff. We corresponded for a few months until he told me that such discussions were, to use his own words, "a waste of time." Perhaps a little background may help to understand Jim's negative reaction. In the course of our exchange of letters, I and a few of my friends had exposed a blatant misrepresentation in his best-selling video, Catholicism: Crisis of Faith, produced in 1992. In the video, McCarthy displays a picture of a woman nailed to a cross. The commentator claims that this picture proves that the Catholic Church considers Mary a savior just like Jesus. We wrote to the bishop of the South American diocese where this image is found. The bishop told us that it was merely a memorial to a woman who was martyred for her faith. The image is located in an obscure alcove of the church. The woman had converted to Catholicism against her husband's wishes, and he decided to repay her for such defiance by nailing her to a cross. We sent the bishop's letter to McCarthy, and, to his credit, he promptly removed that portion from his original video, I'm sure at considerable expense. But he replaced it with another cross that supposedly has Mary on it. I am told that there are only one or two such crosses in the whole world. Leave it to a virulent ex-Catholic like Jim McCarthy to find it and make a silly case that Catholics worship Mary as a Savior. Be that as it may, I figured that, since McCarthy was doing the radio circuit, promoting his new book and engaging callers in short debates, perhaps he would reconsider his previous refusal to debate. I wrote to him. A month or so later I received the letter back from the postman-unopened. As soon as he saw the return address McCarthy refused to open the envelope"... _ _ _ Catechism of the Catholic Church 610 Jesus gave the supreme expression of his free offering of himself at the meal shared with the twelve Apostles "on the night he was betrayed". On the eve of his Passion, while still free, Jesus transformed this Last Supper with the apostles into the memorial of his voluntary offering to the Father for the salvation of men: "This is my body which is given for you." "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." 611 The Eucharist that Christ institutes at that moment will be the memorial of his sacrifice. Jesus includes the apostles in his own offering and bids them perpetuate it. By doing so, the Lord institutes his apostles as priests of the New Covenant: "For their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth." 621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: "This is my body which is given for you" (Lk 22:19). 1339 Jesus chose the time of Passover to fulfill what he had announced at Capernaum: giving his disciples his Body and his Blood: Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the passover lamb had to be sacrificed. So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the passover meal for us, that we may eat it. . . ." They went . . . and prepared the passover. And when the hour came, he sat at table, and the apostles with him. And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer; for I tell you I shall not eat it again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.". . . . And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood." |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 1000407 United States 06/13/2010 07:32 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
GoldenFleece(d)
User ID: 852536 United States 06/13/2010 10:51 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: If the natural beauty of a great and noble soul surpasses all corporeal beauty, how much more true is this of the supernatural beauty that is had thro This was a beautiful post, which I have bookmarked, to read over again... and again. To whomever took the time to present this, I thank you. It is indeed time to 'prepare the bride,' so to speak; the marriage of heaven and earth (the re-joining of our own selves to our Father and home) is soon coming. The full implications of this are... truly inspiring, aren't they? I thank you again. "I take up MY cross, and follow no man..." A novus universitas,- vacuus vestri chaos. (A new world,- without your chaos.) |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 998268 United States 06/14/2010 04:55 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: If the natural beauty of a great and noble soul surpasses all corporeal beauty, how much more true is this of the supernatural beauty that is had thro This was a beautiful post, which I have bookmarked, to read over again... and again. To whomever took the time to present this, I thank you. It is indeed time to 'prepare the bride,' so to speak; the marriage of heaven and earth (the re-joining of our own selves to our Father and home) is soon coming. The full implications of this are... truly inspiring, aren't they? I thank you again. Quoting: GoldenFleece(d)You are welcome, your words are making Him smile. Father Matthias Scheeben speaks in a way about the faith that makes you wish to be faithful. I know of four of his books. I've read one, The Glories of Divine Grace. Father Scheeben is from Germany (1835 - 1888). I started another thread at GLP with some of his quotes. Thread: You know you are a good writer when you can take a subject and shine a new light on it |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 998268 United States 06/14/2010 08:32 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: If the natural beauty of a great and noble soul surpasses all corporeal beauty, how much more true is this of the supernatural beauty that is had thro One notices, Father Scheeben speaks of God's grace, it seems to me to be His theme, he writes about it so often. In my words, to have an understanding of who God is we have to have His grace in us, His light. It's known as sanctifying grace. It is the greatest gift. And once we have it, we can sadly lose it by one mortal sin. The remedy is Confession, confession, confession. It is the only way get it back, that God can return to our soul. Below, the subject is faith, don't you think and with the commentary too, Father Scheeben is saying ask God for the gift of faith, it is a start. +++ +++ +++ The notion that Scheeben here seizes in the text of St. John is the profoundly mysterious one of the lumen gloriae as the instrument, so to speak, of our second generation: the knowledge of God is a transforming power whereby we are made over into His image; we become like to Him because we see Him as He is(22). And this same notion serves him in his development of the imperfect stage of our sonship. Here for the light of faith is claimed a function parallel to that of the light of glory, this time however in dependence rather on St. Paul: Before however it is revealed what we shall be, before the image of our Heavenly Father is engendered in us in its full and complete splendor, and Christ our Life appears, our life is hidden with Christ in God. But nevertheless we do live, and we do bear His image in us; and we are consequently born of God. For the Savior says that He has [p. 72] already revealed to us in a way the name of the Father; by faith, says the Apostle, Christ already dwells in our hearts. Faith itself is indeed a light, sunk by the Father of Light in our souls, a dark and hidden light to be sure, but a light that in truth streams just as directly from the source of Eternal Light as the clear beatific vision of God in His Word; faith also is a participation in the knowledge of the Eternal Word. By faith also we already know God as our Father, and we are for this very reason already born of Him by faith, as children in His image. For dark though it be, still the knowledge of faith fills our souls with such a light and splendor that even now we are transformed by it into the image of the Lord, since by faith we are already ‘light in the Lord’ (Eph. 5, 8), Who has called us out of darkness into His marvelous light. Of faith too is to be understood the word of the Apostle: ‘But we all with faces unveiled (that is, not covered with a veil, as if we knew God only through creatures, as a poor mirror) beholding the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord’(23). {Italics mine} And the conclusion is: Thus we have by the light of faith an anticipation of the glory and the life which we as co-heirs of the Son are to receive as our heritage in the vision of our Father. And as it is by this heritage that we become in fullest measure children of God, so also our first generation communicates to us with the life of the children of God likewise a pledge of our inheritance(24). [p. 73] The line of thought hitherto followed may be briefly stated thus: by the grace of our adoption we are destined and admitted to a share in the life of the Father that is by nature accorded only to the Son: this share in the life of the Father consists above all in a share in His own knowledge of Himself, or rather, a share in His Son’s knowledge of Him; to know the Father as He is in Himself (i.e. as Father) is the proper life of the Son, Who is His image; we therefore, born of the Father in the image of His Son, are gifted too with His heritage, the knowledge of the Father. However in the achievement of our supernatural destiny, in our transformation into the image of the Father, two stages are divinely appointed: the perfect stage of vision and the imperfect stage of faith. Nevertheless, for all their differences, both faith and vision are genuine participations in that knowledge of God which is the natural privilege of His Divine Son; both faith and vision are a share in the divine light, which illumines the God-head as such. Since they are such, their effect is to transform us into the image of the Father of Light. It is this last point which is capital. Scheeben puts it definitely, though in his favorite metaphorical terms, when he says: By faith, as the divine light is us, begins our kinship with the Father of Light. For since the divine nature is the purest light, we achieve kin-ship with it in that we ourselves become light. And so faith, even without love, is still the beginning of our divine filiation, since by it we bear in ourselves the image of the Lord (25). And elsewhere: We become like to God, the Father of Light, in that he kindles in us a light like unto His own. [p. 74] our likeness to the Father consists precisely in this, that He communicates to us a divine power of knowing; by it we know the divine essence, we reflect and imprint it upon ourselves truly after the fashion of His only-begotten Son Who proceeds from Him as His Word and His reflection; and thus we receive the divine image into ourselves, and so become conformed to the image of His Son (Rom. 8, 29)(26). |
GoldenFleece(d)
User ID: 852536 United States 06/15/2010 12:40 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: If the natural beauty of a great and noble soul surpasses all corporeal beauty, how much more true is this of the supernatural beauty that is had thro This was a beautiful post, which I have bookmarked, to read over again... and again. To whomever took the time to present this, I thank you. It is indeed time to 'prepare the bride,' so to speak; the marriage of heaven and earth (the re-joining of our own selves to our Father and home) is soon coming. The full implications of this are... truly inspiring, aren't they? I thank you again. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 998268You are welcome, your words are making Him smile. Father Matthias Scheeben speaks in a way about the faith that makes you wish to be faithful. I know of four of his books. I've read one, The Glories of Divine Grace. Father Scheeben is from Germany (1835 - 1888). I started another thread at GLP with some of his quotes. Thread: You know you are a good writer when you can take a subject and shine a new light on it Gosh, I hope he's smiling again... goodness knows I've probably been an equally significant source of His consternation over the years. "I take up MY cross, and follow no man..." A novus universitas,- vacuus vestri chaos. (A new world,- without your chaos.) |
GoldenFleece(d)
User ID: 852536 United States 06/15/2010 12:56 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Re: If the natural beauty of a great and noble soul surpasses all corporeal beauty, how much more true is this of the supernatural beauty that is had thro Here is an example from a commentary on Scheeben's writings. The quotes are from his book entitled Nature and Grace. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 998268One notices, Father Scheeben speaks of God's grace, it seems to me to be His theme, he writes about it so often. In my words, to have an understanding of who God is we have to have His grace in us, His light. It's known as sanctifying grace. It is the greatest gift. And once we have it, we can sadly lose it by one mortal sin. The remedy is Confession, confession, confession. It is the only way get it back, that God can return to our soul. Below, the subject is faith, don't you think and with the commentary too, Father Scheeben is saying ask God for the gift of faith, it is a start. +++ +++ +++ The notion that Scheeben here seizes in the text of St. John is the profoundly mysterious one of the lumen gloriae as the instrument, so to speak, of our second generation: the knowledge of God is a transforming power whereby we are made over into His image; we become like to Him because we see Him as He is(22). And this same notion serves him in his development of the imperfect stage of our sonship. Here for the light of faith is claimed a function parallel to that of the light of glory, this time however in dependence rather on St. Paul: Before however it is revealed what we shall be, before the image of our Heavenly Father is engendered in us in its full and complete splendor, and Christ our Life appears, our life is hidden with Christ in God. But nevertheless we do live, and we do bear His image in us; and we are consequently born of God. For the Savior says that He has [p. 72] already revealed to us in a way the name of the Father; by faith, says the Apostle, Christ already dwells in our hearts. Faith itself is indeed a light, sunk by the Father of Light in our souls, a dark and hidden light to be sure, but a light that in truth streams just as directly from the source of Eternal Light as the clear beatific vision of God in His Word; faith also is a participation in the knowledge of the Eternal Word. By faith also we already know God as our Father, and we are for this very reason already born of Him by faith, as children in His image. For dark though it be, still the knowledge of faith fills our souls with such a light and splendor that even now we are transformed by it into the image of the Lord, since by faith we are already ‘light in the Lord’ (Eph. 5, 8), Who has called us out of darkness into His marvelous light. Of faith too is to be understood the word of the Apostle: ‘But we all with faces unveiled (that is, not covered with a veil, as if we knew God only through creatures, as a poor mirror) beholding the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord’(23). {Italics mine} And the conclusion is: Thus we have by the light of faith an anticipation of the glory and the life which we as co-heirs of the Son are to receive as our heritage in the vision of our Father. And as it is by this heritage that we become in fullest measure children of God, so also our first generation communicates to us with the life of the children of God likewise a pledge of our inheritance(24). [p. 73] The line of thought hitherto followed may be briefly stated thus: by the grace of our adoption we are destined and admitted to a share in the life of the Father that is by nature accorded only to the Son: this share in the life of the Father consists above all in a share in His own knowledge of Himself, or rather, a share in His Son’s knowledge of Him; to know the Father as He is in Himself (i.e. as Father) is the proper life of the Son, Who is His image; we therefore, born of the Father in the image of His Son, are gifted too with His heritage, the knowledge of the Father. However in the achievement of our supernatural destiny, in our transformation into the image of the Father, two stages are divinely appointed: the perfect stage of vision and the imperfect stage of faith. Nevertheless, for all their differences, both faith and vision are genuine participations in that knowledge of God which is the natural privilege of His Divine Son; both faith and vision are a share in the divine light, which illumines the God-head as such. Since they are such, their effect is to transform us into the image of the Father of Light. It is this last point which is capital. Scheeben puts it definitely, though in his favorite metaphorical terms, when he says: By faith, as the divine light is us, begins our kinship with the Father of Light. For since the divine nature is the purest light, we achieve kin-ship with it in that we ourselves become light. And so faith, even without love, is still the beginning of our divine filiation, since by it we bear in ourselves the image of the Lord (25). And elsewhere: We become like to God, the Father of Light, in that he kindles in us a light like unto His own. [p. 74] our likeness to the Father consists precisely in this, that He communicates to us a divine power of knowing; by it we know the divine essence, we reflect and imprint it upon ourselves truly after the fashion of His only-begotten Son Who proceeds from Him as His Word and His reflection; and thus we receive the divine image into ourselves, and so become conformed to the image of His Son (Rom. 8, 29)(26). I have now been twice-blessed by your unseen hand... certainly, this particular subject has been on my mind for the most of the day today, and so it is (again) rather 'serendipitous' that I should happen to find your post this evening. Oh, faith... I can tell you that if my middle name isn't 'Faith' already, it very well should be; I have traded on it fairly heavily,- to the point that it should be, by now, not even second-nature. And yet, today, this evening, faith was beginning to seem rather 'tired.' I needed this, more than you know. And I thank you, yet again. On your good advice, then, I will wait for 'joy in the morning.' To that better day... "I take up MY cross, and follow no man..." A novus universitas,- vacuus vestri chaos. (A new world,- without your chaos.) |