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Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics

 
Anonymous Coward
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Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
[link to news.nationalgeographic.com]

Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
Scientists "totally surprised" by "significant shake-up."


Kate Ravilious
for National Geographic News
Published July 7, 2010

Protons, among the building blocks of atoms, are even smaller than we thought—and the unexpected discovery may alter some of the most trusted laws of physics.

All atoms are made up of nuclei orbited by electrons. The nuclei, in turn, are made of neutrons and protons, which are themselves made of particles called quarks.

For years the accepted value for the radius of a proton has been 0.8768 femtometers, where a femtometer equals one quadrillionth of a meter.

The size of a proton is an essential value in equations that make up the 60-year-old theory of quantum electrodynamics, a cornerstone of the Standard Model of particle physics. The Standard Model describes how all forces, except gravity, affect subatomic particles.

But the proton's current value is accurate only by plus or minus one percent—which isn't accurate enough for quantum electrodynamics, or QED, theory to work perfectly. So physicists have been searching for ways to refine the number.

Smaller Proton Size Revealed by Lasers

In a ten-year experiment, a team led by Randolf Pohl of the Max-Planck Institute of Quantum Optics in Garching, Germany, used a specialized particle accelerator to alter hydrogen atoms, which are each made of a single proton orbited by an electron.

For each hydrogen atom, the team replaced the atom's electron with a particle called a muon, which is 200 times more massive than an electron.

"Because the muon is so much heavier, it orbits very close to the proton, so it is sensitive to the proton's size," said team member Aldo Antognini, of the Paul-Scherrer Institute in Switzerland.

Muons are unstable, and they decay into other particles in just 2.2 microseconds. The team knew that firing a laser at the atom before the muon decays should excite the muon, causing it to move to a higher energy level—a higher orbit around the proton. The muon should then release the extra energy as x-rays and move to a lower energy level.

The distance between these energy levels is determined by the size of the proton, which in turn dictates the frequency of the emitted x-rays.

But based on the accepted proton radius, the experiment failed to produce x-rays at the anticipated frequency.

In the summer of 2009 the team decided to widen their search to include other possible proton sizes. To their astonishment, the scientists detected x-rays at an assumed proton radius of 0.8418 femtometers—4 percent smaller than expected.

"We were totally surprised and don't have any explanation for it currently," Antognini said.

Smaller Proton a "Significant Shake-up"

The proton finding won't impact most people's daily lives. But if it proves correct, it means something fundamental is wrong in particle physics.

It's possible the smaller proton means the Rydberg constant hasn't been correctly measured. This value describes the way light gets emitted from various elements—a key component of spectroscopy, which is used, for instance, to tell which kinds of elements exist in galaxies and the vast interstellar gas-and-dust clouds called nebulae.

Or, if the Rydberg constant is correct, the smaller size of a proton could mean the equations in QED theory will fail to work.

"It is a significant shakeup and could mean a complete rethink of QED, potentially opening the door to a new theory," said Jeff Flowers, a scientist with the National Physical Laboratory in the U.K., who wasn’t involved with the experiment.

Over the coming weeks physicists all over the world will be scrutinizing the experimental setup and complex calculations, making sure that there are no mistakes.

Assuming no errors are found, the scientists may have to get to work rebuilding the Standard Model.

Findings appear in this week's issue of the journal Nature.
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 07:14 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
PHYSICS DOOM!!!

damned
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 07:14 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
hf
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 07:16 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
what so you mean we DON'T know everything about the universe ???
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 07:19 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
hmmmmmmmmm
TOTAL1TY

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07/07/2010 07:21 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
This is monumental. If you don't understand how monumental it is, that is why I am telling you! I never believed the standard model, seemed error, perhaps this will lead to a Grand Unified Theory.
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 07:21 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
This is monumental. If you don't understand how monumental it is, that is why I am telling you! I never believed the standard model, seemed error, perhaps this will lead to a Grand Unified Theory.
 Quoting: TOTAL1TY


I bet you believe in the "Big Bang", though.

Am I right?
TOTAL1TY

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07/07/2010 07:22 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
This could also have implications towards the assumed size of certain quarks and other particles. Maybe even the neutron.
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 07:23 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
This is monumental. If you don't understand how monumental it is, that is why I am telling you! I never believed the standard model, seemed error, perhaps this will lead to a Grand Unified Theory.
 Quoting: TOTAL1TY



+1

afro
TOTAL1TY

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07/07/2010 07:24 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
I bet you believe in the "Big Bang", though.

Am I right?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1028444


I believe there is a Grand Unified Theory and there is also a Gravitational Constant. I look forward to seeing its elegance as it will describe the universe we live in at both macroscopic and microscopic scales. It will give us a better understanding of the universe and that is a good thing.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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07/07/2010 07:30 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
bump
tkwasny

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07/07/2010 07:47 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
This is monumental. If you don't understand how monumental it is, that is why I am telling you! I never believed the standard model, seemed error, perhaps this will lead to a Grand Unified Theory.


I bet you believe in the "Big Bang", though.

Am I right?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1028444

I believe in the constant roar, not the big bang:

The "material" called time when it is in the state of future and past, is purely kinetic and has no spatial characteristics.

Then an oddity happens. The pure kinetics which is time out from the future slows, because of the slowing "it" begins to convert into 3D space.

At the infinitesimal instance called "present" all of kinetic time is changed into all the 3D static space.

The present lasting for an infinitesimal instant, begins to become kinetic once again, collapsing ALL the 3D static space back in kinetic time material. This kinetic time is now the past.

It's a constant roar of time - into space - back into time. Kinetic - into static - into kinetic.

The human mind cannot process the absolute lack of 3D space that all the future and all the past posesses, so we cannot "see" it.

The future as time current radiates out from the infinite expanse, spherically down and inward. The destination of the time current after it is done converting from being all of 3D space as the present, is the ONE infinitely kinetic, infinitesimal singularity. (The "underworld" spherically down and inward containing all the past)

It is the infinite kinetics of the ONE infinitesimal singularity that creates/upholds the infinite expanse (and the dimension of height) and the dimension of width. The singularity itself posesses the dimension of depth.

Last Edited by tkwasny on 07/07/2010 07:50 PM
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 07:47 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
Problem is that theories become widely accepted and in turn people wildly regard them as factual rather than just a theory with minimal evidence to back the claim up I.E. peak oil / fossil fuel theory. We don't know jack shit.
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 07:55 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
This is monumental. If you don't understand how monumental it is, that is why I am telling you! I never believed the standard model, seemed error, perhaps this will lead to a Grand Unified Theory.


I bet you believe in the "Big Bang", though.

Am I right?

I believe in the constant roar, not the big bang:

The "material" called time when it is in the state of future and past, is purely kinetic and has no spatial characteristics.

Then an oddity happens. The pure kinetics which is time out from the future slows, because of the slowing "it" begins to convert into 3D space.

At the infinitesimal instance called "present" all of kinetic time is changed into all the 3D static space.

The present lasting for an infinitesimal instant, begins to become kinetic once again, collapsing ALL the 3D static space back in kinetic time material. This kinetic time is now the past.

It's a constant roar of time - into space - back into time. Kinetic - into static - into kinetic.

The human mind cannot process the absolute lack of 3D space that all the future and all the past posesses, so we cannot "see" it.

The future as time current radiates out from the infinite expanse, spherically down and inward. The destination of the time current after it is done converting from being all of 3D space as the present, is the ONE infinitely kinetic, infinitesimal singularity. (The "underworld" spherically down and inward containing all the past)

It is the infinite kinetics of the ONE infinitesimal singularity that creates/upholds the infinite expanse (and the dimension of height) and the dimension of width. The singularity itself posesses the dimension of depth.
 Quoting: tkwasny


scream

You're fuckin' with my mind, man!!!

pennywise
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 07:56 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
Problem is that theories become widely accepted and in turn people wildly regard them as factual rather than just a theory with minimal evidence to back the claim up I.E. peak oil / fossil fuel theory. We don't know jack shit.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1028517


That should be the motto of Science!
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 07:57 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
Particles are nothing more than the constructive interference of energy waves.
Apocalypse Troll
Trollicus Apocalyptus

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07/07/2010 08:00 PM

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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
I am fond of the gargantuan vodka particle.
attxflag
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DNAprototype

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07/07/2010 08:03 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
afro
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07/07/2010 08:03 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
'Proton Smaller Than Thought —May Rewrite Laws of Physics'

How do they measure the size of a "thought"?
tkwasny

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07/07/2010 08:11 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
This is monumental. If you don't understand how monumental it is, that is why I am telling you! I never believed the standard model, seemed error, perhaps this will lead to a Grand Unified Theory.


I bet you believe in the "Big Bang", though.

Am I right?

I believe in the constant roar, not the big bang:

The "material" called time when it is in the state of future and past, is purely kinetic and has no spatial characteristics.

Then an oddity happens. The pure kinetics which is time out from the future slows, because of the slowing "it" begins to convert into 3D space.

At the infinitesimal instance called "present" all of kinetic time is changed into all the 3D static space.

The present lasting for an infinitesimal instant, begins to become kinetic once again, collapsing ALL the 3D static space back in kinetic time material. This kinetic time is now the past.

It's a constant roar of time - into space - back into time. Kinetic - into static - into kinetic.

The human mind cannot process the absolute lack of 3D space that all the future and all the past posesses, so we cannot "see" it.

The future as time current radiates out from the infinite expanse, spherically down and inward. The destination of the time current after it is done converting from being all of 3D space as the present, is the ONE infinitely kinetic, infinitesimal singularity. (The "underworld" spherically down and inward containing all the past)

It is the infinite kinetics of the ONE infinitesimal singularity that creates/upholds the infinite expanse (and the dimension of height) and the dimension of width. The singularity itself posesses the dimension of depth.


scream

You're fuckin' with my mind, man!!!

pennywise
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1028444

The "problem" is...

I can't stop "seeing" this.

I asked for it, I got it. I should have been more careful what I asked for.
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 08:13 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
[link to news.nationalgeographic.com]

Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
Scientists "totally surprised" by "significant shake-up."


Kate Ravilious
for National Geographic News
Published July 7, 2010
...
For years the accepted value for the radius of a proton has been 0.8768 femtometers, where a femtometer equals one quadrillionth of a meter.

...
For each hydrogen atom, the team replaced the atom's electron with a particle called a muon, which is 200 times more massive than an electron.
...
But based on the accepted proton radius, the experiment failed to produce x-rays at the anticipated frequency.

In the summer of 2009 the team decided to widen their search to include other possible proton sizes. To their astonishment, the scientists detected x-rays at an assumed proton radius of 0.8418 femtometers—4 percent smaller than expected.
...
The proton finding won't impact most people's daily lives. But if it proves correct, it means something fundamental is wrong in particle physics.

It's possible the smaller proton means the Rydberg constant hasn't been correctly measured.
...
Or, if the Rydberg constant is correct, the smaller size of a proton could mean the equations in QED theory will fail to work.
...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1009698


It will be interesting when they discover that the particles within atoms are arranged in molecular forms, almost fractals. It will rearrange quantum physics for the public for sure. I can't wait!

Interesting how the public physicists are only finding this out, when the underground science community already understands this enough to make new elements, and technology that flies those top secret UFOs.

The scientists took out a hydrogen atom's guts, and still regarded it as a hydrogen atom even after applying a muon. That may be their error. They made a Frankenstein atom.

What is most interesting is that we have CERN doing experiments with the most popular QED paradigm, and now it is discovered that there is a fundamental flaw in the math that helps make their experiments fruitful.

Faster than light here we come!
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 08:13 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
amazing stuff. just fascinated
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 08:18 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
PHYSICS DOOM!!!

damned
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1028444


I lol'ed.
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 08:20 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
and another shot to the kidneys of the big bang theory.

all that physics blah blah blah really says is that if the proton is that much smaller, we don't really know how old the universe is. another step towards proving that the universe had no beginning and has no end. Oroboros. now all the big bangers and bible bangers can bowl on the same team.
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 08:24 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
and another shot to the kidneys of the big bang theory.

all that physics blah blah blah really says is that if the proton is that much smaller, we don't really know how old the universe is. another step towards proving that the universe had no beginning and has no end. Oroboros. now all the big bangers and bible bangers can bowl on the same team.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1028557

right on! as i said, we don't know jack shit.. very few truly do all the rest, well if they claim they do, they're damned fools.
Drooling Idiot
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07/07/2010 08:26 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
I believe in the constant roar, not the big bang:

The "material" called time when it is in the state of future and past, is purely kinetic and has no spatial characteristics.

Then an oddity happens. The pure kinetics which is time out from the future slows, because of the slowing "it" begins to convert into 3D space.

At the infinitesimal instance called "present" all of kinetic time is changed into all the 3D static space.

The present lasting for an infinitesimal instant, begins to become kinetic once again, collapsing ALL the 3D static space back in kinetic time material. This kinetic time is now the past.

It's a constant roar of time - into space - back into time. Kinetic - into static - into kinetic.

The human mind cannot process the absolute lack of 3D space that all the future and all the past posesses, so we cannot "see" it.

The future as time current radiates out from the infinite expanse, spherically down and inward. The destination of the time current after it is done converting from being all of 3D space as the present, is the ONE infinitely kinetic, infinitesimal singularity. (The "underworld" spherically down and inward containing all the past)

It is the infinite kinetics of the ONE infinitesimal singularity that creates/upholds the infinite expanse (and the dimension of height) and the dimension of width. The singularity itself posesses the dimension of depth.
 Quoting: tkwasny


Thats some good well thoughtout stuff.

However did you consider that you may be off 180* on your space vs time definitions? Maybe time is static and space is kenetic, or "of the kenetic"!
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 08:29 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
Problem is that theories become widely accepted and in turn people wildly regard them as factual rather than just a theory with minimal evidence to back the claim up I.E. peak oil / fossil fuel theory. We don't know jack shit.


That should be the motto of Science!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1028444


THIS... The 'jack shit' part, I mean.
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 08:33 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
Problem is that theories become widely accepted and in turn people wildly regard them as factual rather than just a theory with minimal evidence to back the claim up I.E. peak oil / fossil fuel theory. We don't know jack shit.


That should be the motto of Science!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1028444


================================
it is my good man,but rather stated as:

"We don't know what we don't know"

...and you can thank Timothy Leary [the lighter of the lamp] for that.[LSD]...IT'S A HELLUVA DRUG [kudos to Rick James]
Bullfrog

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07/07/2010 08:43 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
so the proton is a male.

got it.
all authority is given to me
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
I am fond of the gargantuan vodka particle.
 Quoting: Apocalypse Troll


I have personally measured the femtometer-long Foster's beer particle and it is nearly as good but not as good as Guiness's Stout.
Anonymous Coward
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07/07/2010 08:54 PM
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Re: Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics
Problem is that theories become widely accepted and in turn people wildly regard them as factual rather than just a theory with minimal evidence to back the claim up I.E. peak oil / fossil fuel theory. We don't know jack shit.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1028517


We know a bucket of lies because we trusted TPTB. Unlearn them all and understand.

A good start is to read the transcripts of talks between Jackie Patru and Alan Watt for 2004 and 2005. Read them in chronological order. You'll get a lot out of it.


[link to www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com]





GLP