Why Born-Agains No longer Continue To Sin pt 3

Why Born-Again Christians do not continue to sin (pt 2) <>

[below is the opening post of the 2nd thread, posted 4/27/05]



Perhaps a more step-by-step explanation is called for on this topic.

First, a Christian is someone called by The Father to Know Jesus and acknowledge that Jesus is HIS Son, the Son of God, who became man in order to redeem all men from their sins, and thus enable men to Come Unto The Father and Know HIM directly.

Such a person who is convicted of Christ Jesus´ Divinity and purpose, is a "Believer".


A Believer becomes Born-Again when he/she surrenders, gives up, sacrifices his/her life to The Father. This is the result of the process of Coming Unto The Father. The basics of this process are
Acknowledge Christ Jesus
Repent of your sins
Claim your share of God´s Grace and Mercy,
Give up (surrender) your life to The Father,
Ask God to send HIS Holy Spirit to dwell within you.

Each of the 4 Gospels Witnesses that we must give up our lives to find them. Luke 17:33 is very concise about this: "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it."

By surrendering to The Father, HE replaces our Natural, worldly, carnal, "Self" with HIS Own Spirit. This means the NaturalMan we start life with "dies" and is replaced by The Fathers Spirit-Filled-Self.

***So many have expressed anxiety about losing their "self", becoming a robot-being, or losing their free-will; this needs to be clarified.***

Abiding in God´s Will is not in any way a depletion of our person, HE fully completes us and enables us to serve our fullest potential. Yet, fear remains a big element of carnality and naturalman motivation.

To become Born-Again, we must disregard our fears, our doubts, and our concerns; and focus all our attention upon how much we want to be whatever God would have us to be in HIS Universe. We cannot come to HIM if we have any reservations about HIS righteousness in directing our lives.

We cannot Know God before we surrender to HIM.

Most Christians remain carnal because they would try to understand God and HIS plans for them before they surrender to HIM. These remain Carnal because they have put conditions upon what must be an unconditional surrender. These who remain mired in their carnality, do not fully trust God. Their failure is all due to their Self-seeking efforts to have control over their lives. Such speaks volumes of them, for they have no clue about God and HIS Ultimate Authority over all.

Like a flea floating down the river, who hollers, "raise the drawbridge"; the carnal Christians overestimate their place. Actually, because they are not in accord with HIM, they have no "place".

All this really does get back to the discussion of the subject; because a Born-Again Christian simply will NOT sin! Here are several witnesses from my life as to why:

#1 When I surrendered to The Father, I did come to Know HIM Personally. HE is totally real in my life: I KNOW HIM!

#2 If I sin, I know that I put myself in Danger of losing my relationship with HIM. Not all persons will have the ability to reunite with HIM. I might die first. I would rather die than risk living without HIM.

#3 The Holy Spirit gives us HIS Witness as a guide everyday of our lives. HIS Witness is True! I am given HIS Witness that something I am considering would be sinful; so I do NOT commit the sin.

#4 When I surrendered to The Father I was given evidence of what my life, lived in Carnality, meant. I was given full knowledge of what Carnal Self is and how it manifested in my life.

Scripture says, "Many are called, but few are chosen."

My witness is that God does not put HIS People, HIS Remnant in jeopardy for no reason. God does not "test us" over and over again.

Jesus, the most powerful Witness in Scripture, says that The Father preserves HIS Remnant from evil; and that We abide in The Father with HIM! God cannot abide with sin or sinners.

I Know that Born-Again Christians do not continue to sin

What IS a Carnal-Christian?
[from the original posted 5/12/05]


Much controversy about using the term "Carnal" to denote a type of Christian. Google shows about 6,000 hits for "carnal christian". Some deny the possibility, others understand the term and its meaning.

Here is what I understand; and yes, up until June 1984; I was a Carnal-Christian.


Point #1: All men are born in a non-reconciled state or nature. This means we come into life, NOT Knowing that Jesus Christ, Yeshua Hamashiach, is God The Son who came to Minister YahWeh´s NEW COVENANT; and by dying on the cross, enable all men to Come Unto The Father.

So: All human beings are born without Knowing WHO Jesus is.


The next point is where things in Christian doctrine begin to get "confused". Since about 1968, the world has been living in The Laodicean Church Age. This time is marked by great watering down of HIS Truth. Most Christian religious denominations have greatly moderated and "compromised" their inherent witness in the last 40 years.

I identify the Chief Laodicean Age LIE to be found in the idea that When a person comes to Believe that Jesus Christ IS God; they have been Born-Again. I have discussed this on a number of threads here in this forum. My witness is drawn from the Witness of the Holy Spirit to me, my own experience and Guided Reading of John 3:3-24. Jesus Witnesses to us that, "Believers are not condemned" (JOhn 3:18). HE also witnesses in verses 15, 16 & 17 that "Believers Should be saved", and "Believers Might be saved". Additionally there are other corroborating Witnesses HE Gives that just Believing is not enough.

In the Laodicean Age; churches and ministers have sought to take a short-cut in the Born-Again process. These guys have decided that if they can convince you to "accept Jesus", or "give your life to Jesus" that you will be Born-Again. Yet, such a short-cut circumvents the crucial steps of Repentance and Surrender. Jesus is The Way to The Father, HE is not The Father! You don´t just give your life to Jesus, or surrender to Jesus and thereby find the Born-Again Experience.


So, if you think you are Born-Again, because you have Believed On Jesus; well, by my witness: You might not be!

That said; on to Point #2:

When we are Convicted by God´s Grace acting upon our hearts; That Jesus Christ IS God, our heart has been "changed" or "Circumcised". The Natural born-nature now understands that Jesus Christ is THE WAY. Although because of Laodicean LIE, Jesus is no longer The Way, but "the destination".

The prime example of the reasoning or Carnal-Mind thought process is found in the initials, WWJD; What Would Jesus Do. This comes from a childs book written about 1900. It promotes to children who have come to Jesus, that they should consider living their lives according to what they think or feel Jesus would do if he was in their shoes. It is a lovely thought and witness. Except that WWJD is merely a guideline for transitioning into the Surrender that must occur and that the Believer must desire in order to become Born-Again, and live closer to God.

The Carnal-Christian therefore, Knows Christ Jesus; and tries to do as HE would have them do, in all aspects of their life.

Point #3:
When a Carnal-Christian has developed sufficient Faith, the Believer will attempt to give their life to God. This is the Unconditional Surrender, or the Leap of Faith.

For the PureHeart or the sinner; Surrender comes fairly easy. The PureHeart wants desperately to Know God in all facets and devote their life To HIM. They Surrender, Completely and Totally Trusting God to take them and do with them as HE sees fit. The sinner is the other side of the coin. He/she has so badly botched their life that God is their only Hope, so they Give HIM their life Trusting that whatever happens; HE will do better by them than they could for themselves.

Once this Process of:
Acknowledging Christ Jesus,
Repenting from sin,
Giving your life to The Father;
is this far progressed; The Carnal-Christian will have God´s RE-Birth effected within them!

AT this time, we Know God has accepted the offering we made of our lives, because we Know We are In-HIS-Presence. It is then that HIS Spirit-Filled-Nature is imparted unto us; replacing the Carnal-nature.

We no longer need consider WWJD; WE KNOW! The Born-Again Christian KNOWS God, and when we ask HIM to send HIS Holy Spirit to Dwell within us and Guide us in thought, word, and deed; we can Know that God will Abide or live within us.

Basically, anyone who Loves Jesus; but has not been Born-Again as evidenced by their Knowledge of the Holy Spirit within their life, is a Carnal-Christian. These persons are not "condemned" but neither are they Born-Again; because as Jesus Witnesses in John 3:3; "..., Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

[link to www.bjornagain.com]

Carnal Christians and Broken Cisterns
Donna Ping
May 04, 2005


My question, today, is do you want religion´s bitter water, or God´s living water? Do you know that being "religious" and being a "Christian" is not the same?

I really dislike the word religious or religion, as people of the world, and sometimes in the church, refer to it.

There are numerous kinds of religions, as in muslim, hindu, christianity, and on and on. But, notice that Christianity is only one of the types or kinds of "religions".

To hear someone say that he or she is religious, or to hear someone refer to a person as being religious does not necessarily mean that he or she is a Christian. To be a Christian is to be Christ-like----born again, and living a righteous lifestyle, ----holy, and sanctified.

When we surrender completely to God we feel an overpowering sense of God´s presence flood our soul. By doing this, and asking Jesus to come into our hearts, and accepting HIM as our personal Saviour, we have an actual encounter with Jesus wherein we experience a personal relationship with HIM as our Lord and Saviour.

Some people like to say that they are religious or try to act like they are super-spiritual, when in all actuality, they have never had an actual encounter with Jesus. It is something that they only say with their mouth, and NOT mean it in their heart. Then, sometimes, they even go so far as to develop what is commonly called a religious spirit. There are numerous ways in which to tell if this religious spirit is at work in an individual:
(1) They´ll find fault with others but not themselves
(2) They always tear down, but never build up
(3) They are unable to receive correction or instruction
(4) They won´t listen to men, only "to God"
(5) They believe that God has appointed them to fix you
(6) They will not tolerate weakness or failures in you
(7) They always want recognition
(8) They are suspicious of every new move of God
(9) They always glory in yesterday, but never today
(10) They won´t join a group outside theirs, and will forbid
you to, also

Some people only say with their mouths that they accept Jesus, and don´t mean it in their heart--there is about one cubit (approx. 17 iinches) that it has to travel from the mouth to the heart. God knows our hearts and HE knows when we are sincere. Only when we mean it in our heart is our name written in the Book of Life, and that is the only way we are going to enter into heaven.

The so-called religious spirit is only skin deep, and a person puts it on, so to speak, for the eyes of the natural man, and is totally "carnal", and the Bible tells us that his religion is vain. CARNAL means worldly, or fleshly---Romans 8:7 says the carnal mind is enmity to God. Romans n8:6 says to be carnally mnded is death and in vs. 8 is says those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

A lot of people have KNOWLEDGE, but knowledge without obedience is of no use to God. God wants us to share the knowledge that HE gives us, so that He can give us more. The Bible says freely you have received, freely give. This is one of the main principles set forth in the WORD! OBEDIENICE is the key to blessings of the Lord. In order to gain knowledge, we must read and study the Word daily, and walk as closely to God that we can and get to really KNOW HIM, and get to know His voice!! There are many voices out there, but the closer walk we have with the Lord, the better we can recognize when HE is speaking to us.

WE need to learn to let HIM carry us on His Living Waters. I liken it to something like this: When we were in sin, we were drinking stale water, and that water kept coming, and getting deeper and deeper, and was getting more stagnated with each passing day until we were "up to our noses" so to speak, with it and about to drown. But, when Jesus came on the scene and I accepted HIM as my personal Saviour, I no longer was standing in stale, stagnated water, but I was being carried by HIM on His Living Waters.

There are people out there today who profess to have "religion", but their religion is "emppty and burdened with carrying, and drinking stale, bitter water.

In Jeremiah 2:13, it says "For my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken ME, the fountain of living waters, and hewn for themselves cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water".

When we drink from God as a "fountain of Living Water, our spirit is actually communing with His Spirit.

Some people feel that if they can go to Church and sing some songs and get a "feel good" feeling, they have been "to church", when in all actuality, they never really experience what it is like to really feel God´s living presence. They don´t know the difference between an anointing of the Holy Spirit, and emotions. Such people have never really felt "the joy of the Lord" or a "burden for the lost"--they have never really drank deeply of the fountains of His Living Waters.

I want to discuss a little bit about "broken cisterns" which Jeremiah spoke about:
The 1st broken cistern is SENSATIONALISM. Some Christians find their joy and peace in experiences in which the power of God is viewed as a mystic energy flowing fromnthe sphere of their emotions Such believers manufacture a sense of God´s presence through the stirring of their emotions. Experiencing God´s presence will certainly touch our emotions, but the substitution of emotionalism is idolatry. Whether such practices take place in the worship service, in the use of certain spiritual gifts or in the prayer closet, the emotions in these exercises essentially become an idol to which we are enslaved. Only a true expeprieince with the Lord can differentiate between our emotions and God´s presence....

The 2nd broken cistern is the substitution of the written letter of Scripture for God´s presence. While Scripture is foundational for knowing God, its primary purpose is to point us to the reality of His presence. The believer whose joy and peace before God are anchored primarily in his ability to memorize, analyze and systematize the written revelation of God´s truth has made the paper and ink of Scripture his god. Such idolatry blinds us from experiencing God´s living presence. That is why Jesus said to the Pharisees in John 5:38-40)You seaarch the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to ME that you may have life.

A 3rd broken cistern is closely connected with making an idol of the Bible. It is the substitution of righteousness for God´s presence. That person makes an idol of the Scriptures by making his obedience to the Scriptures his final basis for his peace with God. He bases his spirituality on his good works, and is deceiving himself by thinking that by doinig his good works he has assurance that God both loves and accepts him. Paul rebuked the Galations in Gal. 3:3, saying "Are you so foolish" Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh".

A 4th broken cistern used as a substitute for the living waters of God´s presence is security in material possessions. This is expecially common in our country. With all the material benefits included in God´s rich blessings upon us, many believers have become guilty of this sin. Material possession in themselves are not evil, but when our joy and security is rooted in them rather than in the presence of HIM whi indwells in us, we in effect have forgotten God.

A 5th cistern found in the church is pleasure. A material-oriented society is a society obsessed with sensual pleasure. The Christian who clings to material riches will likewise be obsessed with pleasure. Remember Paul´s statement to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:1,2,4, & 5----"But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be . . . lovers of pleasure rather than lover of God."

There are no genuine substitutes for the experience of God´s presence. Sensationalism, intelligence, material things or so-called works of righteousness will not fill us with the refreshing waters of HIS presence. Neither will they get us into heaven--as Jesus said "No one comes to the Father except by Me".

Spiritual renewal for God´s people cannot and will not occur until we are satisfied with nothing less than the Living Waters that come from God!!!

MAY WE SEEK HIS PRESENCE AS THE SAME INTENSITY OF MOSES IN EXODUS 33:15--------"If Thy Presence go with me, carry us not up hence."


[link to www.injesus.com]

From my GLP post, The "how and why" of Christian error



In these last moments before the First World falls away, many Christians are seeking answers when they might otherwise be seeking a relationship with The Father through Jesus Christ. Yet, most men define their lives in terms of Self, and Christians are no different; until they submit totally to God and become Born-Again, if they can be convicted to surrender to HIM. So, what are the "hows and whys" of Christian error?

All Christian error is rooted in Self; God The Father, YahWeh and Christ Jesus, Yeshua Hamashiach and The Holy Spirit are the convicting authority for all Christianity. The only way for any Christian to obtain an awareness of the error they have been striding with in all areas of their life is by enabling a personal relationship with God. Unless you Come Unto The Father; that is, come into HIS Presence and establish a direct relationship with HIM, a knowing friendship, you cannot "know" anything about yourself.

God is the ultimate Truth in our lives, as Christians (or human beings, but this is a discussion of Christian living); whether we surrender and submit to HIM or not. Only by giving up our life to HIM, do we keep our life. Unless we have surrendered totally to HIM, we cannot be Born-Again.


Anything and Everything that keeps us from submitting our lives Unto The Father, as Christians, is error and it is based upon, caused by and rooted in Self! Until we have been Born-Again we are unable to recognize the myriad ways that, even seeking to "do good and serve God", we have only been serving Self. Self-will is always in error, because it arises out of our innate and limited knowledge and is not in alignment with God´s Will.

How do we know what God´s Will in our life is? Simply put: We can´t, without first Coming Unto The Father.

Who can Come Unto The Father? Anyone who loves Christ Jesus and accepts HIM as God made man, who redeemed all men from all sin, and IS victorious over death. <<>>


In these last moments, unless you have given your life to HIM, you are in danger. Christ Jesus Witnesses this to us three times in John ch 3, when HE tells Nicodemus that unless a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. (why not google an online bible and look at John 3: verses 3, 5, & 7?) In verses 15, 16 & 17, Jesus tells Nicodemus three times that all who believe "might" be saved, and "should" have everlasting life; but that all is "conditional". The "condition" is made known in verse 14 when Yeshua says The Son of Man must be lifted up like Moses´ rod. The "condition" is taking action, and any who takes action lifting up the Son of Man will Come Unto The Fther and become Born-Again.

Yet, in these Laodicean churh age days, most Christians hold the belief that if they "Believe" they are saved. In truth, belief is just the starting point of our relationship with God, not the final goal.

Self distorts everything. Believers remain mired in Self because they have not yet surrendered Unto The Father. They seek God based upon their own innate understanding of what is "good". Such is like attempting to learn how to read, with severe vision distortion and without corrective lens glasses. If you cannot "see" you cannot come to "know". Especially when the subject you would "study" is God.

Believers, though on the path to God, remain Carnal or worldly. Believers have not yet received God´s Re-Birth, so they know only in terms of carnal-self.

Many Christians are unable to be honest with themselves; they are essentially dishonest; not that they steal or cheat, but that they are unable to admit truth in some areas of their lives. This is a hallmark of carnality, and is also termed to be denial. If you cannot admit truth, you deny it. Such is one reason that Christ told us that if we love HIM, the world would hate us. Carnality hates God, because God´s Presence will vanquish carnality.

Carnal Christians will make every effort, aside from surrender to HIM, to find God. Many try to "fake it till they make it" doing "good works" and reading Scripture. Those who have read enough Scripture will often seize strongly onto 2 Timothy 2:15. This one verse is embraced with Carnal-Fervor because it offers the carnal-minded a goal that they very much seek: To be approved unto God. All they think is that they must "study" to win HIS Approval.

The only "approval unto God" that there is, is that of being accepted by HIM, effectively adopted into HIS Family, and then receiving HIS Holy Spirit within you when you become Born-Again. What an amazing Blessing of Acceptance! Yet carnal-minded-man always thinks in terms of how he/she can "do more" "do better" for such "doing" is always of Self. Carnal-minded-man thinks with his-mind, not guided by God´s Holy Spirit; thus is always in error.

Carnal-minds embrace 2 Timothy 2:15 in their manic effort, yet do not read the whole chapter. The chapter is a guide to those who seek to be formal ministers, evangelists, or missionaries. In verses 5 to 10, Timothy compares such callings as being a "husbandman" in the Lord´s vineyard and says the husbandman ought to first know the fruits and receive all knowledge from God. Yet, the carnal-minded don´t want to hear that.

To the carnal-mind; study of God´s Word, Divine Scripture, which Yeshua is the Living Embodiment; becomes a scholarly effort to study what other men say about God, not finding their way to Know HIM. Canal-man does not seek God, no, C-m is seeking to avoid coming to Know God´s Truth. For Carnality is rooted in denial of HIM.

A very strident "studier" wrote to me the other day that "only Born-Agains were Christian". He sees and describes himself as Born-Again, and this means the Holy Spirit is supposedly within him; yet his statement is wrong.

His statement is wrong, because until the Lamb´s Book of Life closes, there are many who love Christ and The Father who have yet to become Born-Again. They are Christians. Scripture tells us in John 3:18 that those who Believe on HIM are not "condemned". They may not be Born-Again, remaining in the Valley of Decision, but they are still Christians.

The same Strident-Studier wrote that while he received the gifts of the Holy Spirit, he always confirmed these in Scripture before acting on them as he was afraid of "lying spirits".

Strident-Studier is in grave error because he does not fully and completely Trust God. Such is what is called "conditional assent", meaning if he ever told God he would trust HIM totally with his life, (like he had to do to become Born-Again), S-S did not hold up his part of the deal.

Since I began to give witness of God in my life, I have encountered this a number of times.

Many Christians who think they are Born-Again and "saved", believe that God will allow satan to deceive them, or that God will send "lying spirits" to them as HE did to Ahab´s prophet.

On this crazy GLP Forum, we have those who reply on Christian threads to deny that Christ is God, and state that the Trinity is blasphemy, all the while they seek to do damage to those who seek Christ and Christian discussion. Now such a person is not a Christian, but the adversary will pose however he can do you damage.

There are lying spirits and deceivers out there, but God is not sending them to you, and God is not allowing them to guise themselves in HIS Flavor and come amongst HIS Remnant. Christ Jesus prayed to The Father to deliver The Remnant from evil and preserve us. (See John Ch 17, the entire chapter is HIS Prayer for us!)

How can anyone who has the Holy Spirit abiding within them not Know HIM the ways a child born blind at birth knows his parents by all his other senses?

We either Trust God completely or we don´t. If we do not Trust HIM completely, HE will not abide within us. Soon, very soon, HE will be our only protection and encouragement, while the First World ends. We will either be IN-HIM, or without. Christ Jesus is our Ark, our Passover, our Deliverer. If you are without HIM, you will be on your own.

Look out..its KAZZAR!!!

On and on about the great "HIM" again.

Perhaps we should start dancing....

Jesus said:

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye:




Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


Then i suppose - according to your logic - Jesus is wrong.

If we no longer sin, why would we pray for forgiveness of debts and trespasses??

Just being a "Believer" does not make you Born-Again.


Becoming a Believer puts you "on" the road that leads to God. When you become Faithful in your love for HIM, you have arrived at the bridge on the road. God is on the other side, but there is a gap at the top of the bridge. This is the Call To Decision; how to get across the gap and give yourself to God. Those who manifest HIS Calling upon their heart, take the Leap Of Faith. They give themselves to HIM wholeheartedly, not knowing what to expect, but knowing that it is what they must do.

God´s Grace enables the Leap. Being convicted of our hearts to take action for HIM is the crux of the matter.

There is no need to be a church member or be studied in the Bible; all that matters is getting to the point in your life where you decide.

To Come Unto The Father may be done by seeking Jesus in prayer and asking, "Lord, please show me how to Come Unto The Father", or follow the 5 step process below if you pray over this process and God leads you to know it is right:

1) Acknowledge Jesus as God made man, whose death redeemed all men from sin, and that HE IS Victorious over death,
2) Admit your sins, that you are sorry, and ask God to help you sin no more,
3) Claim your share of HIS Grace, Mercy and Salvation,
4) Give your life to The Father; all of it, the good and the bad. Promise HIM that you will always seek HIS Will, and you give up your own unto HIM. Thy Will, not mine, be done,
5) Ask HIM to send the Holy Spirit to you to guide you in thought, word and deed so you may abide with-HIM and receive knowledge of HIS Will for you.

If you do this with all possible honesty, sincerity and fealty; HE will accept you and you will feel like a new man or woman. You will know HIM, and you soon will experience that the Holy Spirit is living inside you.

Only by being Born-Again do we abide with God in this life by the In-Dwelling of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:3, John 14, and 1st John 2 are all witness to the fact that Believers must become Born-Again if they are to know Christ and see the Kingdom of God.

Those who object to this message are those who will knock and cry, "Lord, lord, Open unto us!" HE says to them, "Begone, I know you not!"

Only those who are Born-Again bear fruit for God.

It is time for those whose hearts are feeling HIS Call to make their decision.

If you are, have been Born-Again, you literally Know God, have been In HIS Presence and Abide With HIS Holy Spirit.
Read verses 1-9 of Matthew ch 6 and see if Jesus is not Giving Instruction or Witness as to how we are to pray and worship, and aid the poor...

Very hard for me to conceive of someone giving their life up Unto The Father without knowing The Our Father...

The concise Witness of Born-Again life is within these 2 verses of Ezekiel 36:
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

If you "walk In-HIS Statutes, Keep HIS Judgments, and Do HIS Will; do you believe you can sin?

Do you honestly think anyone is going to read that shite.

"How do i get to heaven?"
"Ye, must be born again."
I think you'll find that he was talking about reincarnation.
One love...

Lester User ID: 1180632 United States 12/1/2010 3:59 PM
from my post on the below thread:

Re: ### IT IS TIME TO LET GO!!!! ### Quote


What happens when you have unreservedly given your life Unto The Father?

26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



Your life is transformed.
Been almost 26.5yrs since I made my surrender.
I recall it as vividly as if it were yesterday.
Most important moment of my life.

All that Scripture Witnesses has come True in my life.
You can Know God Personally and Directly.
You will Know that you have been In-HIS Presence.
You will Know that HIS Holy Spirit Abides In you.
You will Know that the world no longer matters, that HIS Will is all that does.
You will Know that to choose sin is to choose alienation and HIS Witness when you have occasion to confront sin will Enable you to avoid it.

Others who know you, will realize you have changed.
You will be delivered from fear.
You will recognize others who also are Of-HIM.
You will receive many of The Gifts Of The Holy Spirit.

You will KNOW what it means to "lose your life"...
Matthew 16
25. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?


You are either Of-HIM or you are not.
Which are you determined to be?
I witness to you that you can Trust HIM Fully and Completely. HE Cannot let you down.

It all depends on you.
You are the only one who can decide what to do with your life.
Can you give your life to God?
Can you "lose it for my sake"?
Lose your carnal-heart; gain a New Heart Of HIS Flesh...

If you would be HIS
Now is the time to tell HIM so.


Maranatha!!!

see everybody butt fucking is perfectly ok
cocksucking in the bell tower
random stealing and general killing

all fine

this loser has back up

Luk 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

Luk 11:25 And when he cometh, he findeth [it] swept and garnished.

Luk 11:26 Then goeth he, and taketh [to him] seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last [state] of that man is worse than the first.

So yes Christians can continue to sin and lose their salvation.

Last Edited by Judeth on 12/06/2010 02:20 PM

No discernment from you?
You figure the Luke 11 verses you cite apply to those Born-Again?
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


If your heart remains of-stone, then sure; sinfulness remains your nature. Luke 11 is powerful Witness, but not primarily for the verses you cite, Judeth...

Jesus is not Witnessing of Born-Agains falling into prodigalism, but rather of the ones he addresses in verse 23 being on their own. "He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth."


You can read the whole passage as these verses frame part of HIS Witness Against Pharisees who accused HIM of casting out devils by beelzebub.

I feel set-upon in the same way by pseudo-Christians who will not Seek The Father, surrender and be Born-Again and thereby KNOW HE Has Delivered them from carnality and sin.

God Damn the deniers!

Twice in The Gospel of John does Jesus Witness to one HE has healed of their sins, "Sin no more!".
John 5:14. Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
John 8:11. She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


You figure Jesus is the liar, or is it me who witnesses that HIS Word IS True?

Lots of bunk and truth here. The Holy Spirit is your FAther Fragment, which is an advisor, but it does not prevent you from making errors. I know lots of born again christians who are very short on God knowledge. they can and do sin, because receiving a thought adjuster, or choosing to become a good person does not negate errors of judgment.

hi lester. great thread!!! one quick question:

i'm of the other people not descended from adam and eve, so i and my ancestors never had the "original sin" thing. why should we need yer religion since sin is not in our nature? thanks for yer thoughtful reply.

"as stubborn as a thousand born-agains avoiding questions" - Aesop Rock.

You appear to have built a very well rationalized defensive wall of pride around your soubunnye out from behind your wall and join me in the path to our divine creator.

I am confused. If I wanted to become sinless and be born again, who am I supposed to worship. There was a thread the other day about Jesus not being the real guy, but a guy called Emmanuel. I want to be sure that I dont accidentally worship the wrong guy, but you seem to be implying it is Jesus not Emmanuel I should worship. Which is right?

They don't get any moonlight? Sorry, couldn't resist.

The funny thing about Christianity is that there are only TWO entities, God (Trinity) and Satan. This is so strange. Any unworldly occurance will be automatically pinned on either of those two. Just look at human beings, animals and plants. How many are there? Same in the spirit world, there are uncountable entities out there that could create any paranormal occurance. This is the selling point of Christianity but too bad it's so wrong.

i used to believe the false doctrine of being born again
but if you keep studying you find it's not true ..


start here:



JOHN 3:3

[link to biblos.com]


Born again is not correct translation, should be


Verily, I say unto tee, Except a man be
born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God

I know what was, what is, and what shall be.

I know the Father because He abides in me.

I share many times a month to many on glp what was, what is and what shall be.

I also know that half truths are being spouted out by Lester.
He has not fully come to the Father either like many. He is still struggling thinking he is abiding in the whole truth of God and His love for us.
He speaks of the carnal character not fully letting God come and abide within those that are saved.

He is not letting God fully abide in him because if he did, he too would know what was, what is,and what shall be.

I have already made my decision, so I do not have to worry about the "valley of decision", because I shall stand against all evil by the power of Gods right hand.
God leads, guides, and directs me in all things.
I do not listen to man or mans teachings, I listen to the Father and He walks with me always showing me all things.

No man came to tell me about the Lord. God Himself brought me to the table of the Lord and I eat and drink with the Lord every moment of my life. I knew Him before I was born in my mothers womb because God had told me that I was with Him before. My awakening did not come by the way of mens traditions or church systems. My peace, my love for others, my love for God came by the way of God Himself. He teaches me all things, for as Jesus says "Behold I have foretold you all things."
John 6:63 tells me to listen to the Lord with my spiritual self, my soul.
And no one shall steal my crown that the Lord gave me freely. Not one person!
The Lord has shown me the way to eternal life.
Peace and love my brothers and sisters.

Father Fragment? HIS Spirit, less than all of HIM, okay a fragment; but wouldn't refer to either HIM or HIS Holy Spirit in a derogatory manner...

The Born-Again has free-will. You can lapse into self and pursue sin anytime you choose. God's Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit That Dwells Within will Give you Witness that you are considering sin. Up to you to decide if you choose to sin and thereby become alienated from God. My witness is most who've given their lives and been Brought Into HIS Accord per Ezekiel 36 will not pursue the sin.

In 2005, I wrote a number of witnesses about Time for Prodigals to Reunion With God. One here acknowledged he/she had heard HIS Call and repented and Reunioned With Father.


Choosing to be a "good person" has nothing to do with being Born-Again. How others judge you matters not. All that matters is Living In God's Accord and Doing HIS Will. You don't care how the carnal-heart perceives your actions if they are Directed By God.

Last Edited by Lester on 12/06/2010 05:28 PM

Protestants, some sixteen centuries later applied a new
meaning to Our Lord's term..."born again." Wake up,
Jesus speaks of "water" explaining the meaning to Nicodemus.

Where is the "water" in the Protestant "born again?" Lester, personal opinion means nothing.

If you knew the whole truth, you would know you error.
You are a child of the living God, but your mind has been wiped of this knowledge of when we all sang and rejoiced with God before the overthrow attempt.

You are my brother and I am your brother, have been since the beginning. And if you are a woman then you have been mys sister from the beginning, just like all man kind, except one race, that is the Kenites.

AMEN....!!! ;0)))

Where is the "water" in the Protestant false teaching of what it means to be born again?

Don't be deceived by heresy.

The first Christians knew what Our Lord meant and preached the same as they were taught by the Apostles.

+ + +

Born Again in Baptism


One key Scripture reference to being "born again" or "regenerated" is John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

This verse is so important that those who say baptism is just a symbol must deny that Jesus here refers to baptism. "Born again" Christians claim the "water" is the preached word of God.

But the early Christians uniformly identified this verse with baptism. Water baptism is the way, they said, that we are born again and receive new life—a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5).

No Church Father referred to John 3:5 as anything other than water baptism.



Justin Martyr


"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).



Irenaeus


"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).



Tertullian


"[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).



Hippolytus


"The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and he, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the Spirit of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism" (Discourse on the Holy Theophany 8 [A.D. 217]).



The Recognitions of Clement


"But you will perhaps say, ‘What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?’ In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: ‘Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (The Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).



Testimonies Concerning the Jews


"That unless a man have been baptized and born again, he cannot attain unto the kingdom of God. In the Gospel according to John: ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]. . . . Also in the same place: ‘Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye shall not have life in you’ [John 6:53]. That it is of small account to be baptized and to receive the Eucharist, unless one profit by it both in deeds and works" (Testimonies Concerning the Jews 3:2:25–26 [A.D. 240]).



Cyprian of Carthage


"[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).



Council of Carthage VII


"And in the gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, ‘Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ" (Seventh Carthage [A.D. 256]).



Cyril of Jerusalem


"Since man is of a twofold nature, composed of body and soul, the purification also is twofold: the corporeal for the corporeal and the incorporeal for the incorporeal. The water cleanses the body, and the Spirit seals the soul. . . . When you go down into the water, then, regard not simply the water, but look for salvation through the power of the Spirit. For without both you cannot attain to perfection. It is not I who says this, but the Lord Jesus Christ, who has the power in this matter. And he says, ‘Unless a man be born again,’ and he adds the words ‘of water and of the Spirit,’ ‘he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine; for it is Jesus who has declared it" (Catechetical Lectures 3:4 [A.D. 350]).



Athanasius


"[A]s we are all from earth and die in Adam, so being regenerated from above of water and Spirit, in the Christ we are all quickened" (Four Discourses Against the Arians 3:26[33] [A.D. 360]).



Basil the Great


"This then is what it means to be ‘born again of water and Spirit’: Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12–13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively, and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit’s presence there" (The Holy Spirit 15:35 [A.D. 375]).

My Complete Trust and Obedience in all things of my life was freely and hopefully given to The Father. I understood/Knew that when I made my surrender I was In HIS Presence and once my prayer was concluded that HE Had Accepted the offering I made of my life.

Would rather not discuss pre-ordination or Calvinistic dogma.

There is no dogma or doctrine to follow if you are HIS.
God Guides you through life and Makes your way.

I Know that had I asked HIM for ten-million times more than all the wealth of the world, HE Would Have Given it to me, but then would have shown me that HE Intended to Give me hundred fold more than all I could have imagined...

Can't understand that the Born-Again Loves God so much that nothing can motivate him/her to sin and betray their Relationship With The Father? Most are that way. Very few can Trust God Completely. Only sinners and PureHearts who think they sin worse than any really find their way to surrender. All others rationalize why they are pleasing to God.

Can't understand that it is only God that Delivers us from carnality or self-will? Then it is because you never surrendered and came to Know just how strongly Self sought to keep you alienated from HIM.


Believe what you want, but only those with Knowledge of HIS Deliverance from their carnal-condition can give witness of what they have Seen and Know...

I like Krishna better.