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How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?

 
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 08:45 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
I wonder how many of these believers think on a sub-conscious level that they can escape their past sins and possible future sins because of this idea that someone else died for everyone's sins. It allows for a dangerous path to be tread by souls who do not understand the law of give and take and who may at one point in life be indifferent as to what they do with their lives and what actions are carried through. In the annals of their minds, they will always have the sub-conscious programming that Jesus died for their sins and therefore a level of naivety may allow for a walk on the razor's edge. And to think that everyone is born a sinner is probably the most self-defeating notion of them all because from the start, a brain-washed soul will always live a life of less magnitude until it breaks free of this ridiculous paradigm.
 Quoting: EvilBugger


What a delightful piece of wisdom.
Scrodiddles  (OP)

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07/28/2011 08:46 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Yes, but, as I have said, I am well aware of everything you just said. I have read the same book many times. It is spelled out very clearly in that book but, when it comes to actually explaining what changed, there is no answer. There are just metaphors of his blood and how clean we are now. But in terms of actually saying "Jesus died and his soul left his body with such force that it created a void so intense that all of the energy vibrating at the same frequency was sucked in, inescapably. The only energy that matches the void's vibration is Sin. Hence we are all washed of our sins.

I understand that explanation is lofty and laughable, but to be honest, it is a better attempt than the Bible ever made.

Washing away sins is a metaphor.
But Jesus' blood sacrifice? How can you think that was anything other than literal?

Just because it doesn't fit the 20k meta physical jargon doesn't make it a bad attempt. Maybe you just make a bad attempt at being willing to accept it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475638


I would hope you can see that I managed to upload a picture and pay for an account on GLP so I am clearly not mentally handicapped. I know better than to take anything in religion as something other than a metaphor. But even the metaphor lacks an explanation. There is no sequence of logic that spells out what exactly changed in both the physical and spiritual world when Jesus was killed. It just says "He died for you. And now your sins are forgiven". That is quite a syntax gap if you asked me. The question is "HOW?!". How in the world did his death actually help me be forgiven. Who was condemning me in the first place? God? So why send another of your creations to be killed and then use that as a catalyst to change your mind? There is a lot of reasoning missing here and metaphor, or not, it just isn't enough to really base something of off.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles



Washing away sins is not just a metaphor. It is a requirement!

This was shown when John baptized the Son of God.
Even in His perfection, it was and is one of the requirements to enter the kingdom of God.
 Quoting: fairflight



Fairflight, I don't mean this as an insult, but you are really not doing a great job of answering my question. I have had countless years of Babtist bible study and nothing you are saying is new. Nor is it really what I would consider an attempt to answer the original question.
I am in search of Truth, but still emptying my cup.
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 08:48 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
I would hope you can see that I managed to upload a picture and pay for an account on GLP so I am clearly not mentally handicapped. I know better than to take anything in religion as something other than a metaphor. But even the metaphor lacks an explanation. There is no sequence of logic that spells out what exactly changed in both the physical and spiritual world when Jesus was killed. It just says "He died for you. And now your sins are forgiven". That is quite a syntax gap if you asked me. The question is "HOW?!". How in the world did his death actually help me be forgiven. Who was condemning me in the first place? God? So why send another of your creations to be killed and then use that as a catalyst to change your mind? There is a lot of reasoning missing here and metaphor, or not, it just isn't enough to really base something of off.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


Yes. God.

Jesus was not created. He has always existed as a spirit and was born in the form of flesh, but still remained God (a mystery).
The God-man.
Jags~Beach

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07/28/2011 08:48 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Jesus is The Word.
When we weave The Word into our soul by meditating on it and applying it to our lives via action, the word becomes interwoven into the fabric of our lives.

Now when we pass, The Word being eternal gets ressurected to heaven, and so to do we, those who have committed our lives to applying The Word to it.


Redemption
Now there is more to it than having our sins washed away, we have to be redeemed. Our redemption occured on the cross. The cross is the key to heaven.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Death

For eons all corrupt operating programs where subject to deaths quarantine: hell. Corrupt operating programs where excomunicated from heaven so as not to compromise the matrix of it while the operation of creation was in progress.

Once creation came to its magnificent glory, it was time to restore the rogue operating programs, but death was too greedy to allow the operating programs to be redeemed from his possession.

Earth was therefore created, logic being that if rogue operating programs could exist in the confinement of hell, then so too could they exist in hells heaven, IE earth.

The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. Psalm 24:1

Earth created a frenzy of souls for death to consume from this petree dish of cultures seeking their own way, generation after generation.

Being in a drunken frenzy death that shark managed to find itself being riden by the devil himself compelling it to consume Jesus on the cross, having been condemned by man.

Jesus did not help matters any, being forsaken by his own, while humbly washing the feet of sinners, riding into Jerusalem on an ass, putting his cheek out to those who would spit on it, or pluck off his beard; I mean this guy looked like death bait by the time the Italian mob got done with him.

Well death fell for the bait, and having consumed Jesus a man without sin, death wound up falling into condemnation itself, for forsaking the authority of reality, and being subjected to the authoority of men who condemned our sinless messiah.

Death having took the life of Jesus which was all he had, wound up losing not only everything it had in its treasure trove of hell, but its life as well. But death had a suspended sentence, despite that Jesus is now the possesser of the keys to the gates of hell.

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:18

It is as if the earth was created among other reasons, to destroy death and restore condemned souls to being made whole again. Holy.

For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him. Psalms 103:11-13

The word restores us by taking the place of the curruption of our souls that was removed from us in order to make us whole. Holy

Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy. Leviticus 19:2

The end time world leader gets to be in power according to prophecy for only 3 1/2 years. If you believe Obama is the end time world leader prophesied to come, now you know the date.



July 4th 2012 Universal Independance day and return of the Messiah: fulfilling the 3 1/2 year prophecy.
cdhowlett
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07/28/2011 08:48 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
I am actually being sincere here. I was raised in a Southern Babtist home and have read the bible a fair share of times, but I am at a total loss when it comes to understanding how Jesus dying on the cross translates into me being forgiven for my "sins".

And please don't just post scripture that just states it matter-of-factly as if I should ignore that we live in a world where things have to correlate.

So they torture him, place him on a cross, and then wait for him to die. He passes away, is reborn and then ascends to heaven. Now I get forgiven if I have impatient thoughts? How does that work? Did he die, go to heaven and flip on a breaker switch, resurrect on earth to check if it worked and then just strolled on back to heaven? What happened during his death that made our sins forgivable?

It's like a father bursting through the door and telling his son that cursing is now allowed in the house because he hit a deer on the way home. How in the world is it connected?
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


If you believe at all in the bible, here is the answer:

Adam was perfect, when he sinned in the garden of eden he lost that perfect life, passing on sin to his offspring, also rejecting God's authority to rule humans. God needed another perfect human to balance out what Adam lost, as was foretold in [Genesis 3:14,15].

The nation of Israel needed continual animal sacrifices because no amount of animals can equal a perfect human life. [Hebrews 10:4].

Before Jesus was born on earth, he was Michael, the archangel and first of all creation. [John 8:23]. Jesus was born a perfect human shielded by holy spirit in Mary's womb. [John 11:27] Was on the earth to tell others about God's kingdom [John 18:36] and what that would bring: i.e.: perfection, everlasting life, etc. [John 17:3]. His death paved the way for people to come to an accurate knowledge of God and the bible with the possibility of everlasting life.

He was dead for 3 days, [Luke 24:46] and was around for over a month to continuing teaching his disciples until he was raised to heaven {presenting the value of his sacrificial death to God} [Heb. 9:11, 12] [Hebrews 9:24] to serve as God's vassal king and back to being in his archangel position...ready to fight at [Revelation 19:14, 16] Armageddon and rule 1,000 years. [Isaiah 2:4].

Hope this helps. The added scripture is so you can see I'm quoting the bible.
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 08:48 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
The smart-ass tone of your post suggests you think you are owed a simple explanation that you can put in your favorites folder. F**k you.
Scrodiddles  (OP)

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07/28/2011 08:49 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
I wonder how many of these believers think on a sub-conscious level that they can escape their past sins and possible future sins because of this idea that someone else died for everyone's sins. It allows for a dangerous path to be tread by souls who do not understand the law of give and take and who may at one point in life be indifferent as to what they do with their lives and what actions are carried through. In the annals of their minds, they will always have the sub-conscious programming that Jesus died for their sins and therefore a level of naivety may allow for a walk on the razor's edge. And to think that everyone is born a sinner is probably the most self-defeating notion of them all because from the start, a brain-washed soul will always live a life of less magnitude until it breaks free of this ridiculous paradigm.
 Quoting: EvilBugger


What a delightful piece of wisdom.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1485849



i agree with this to an extent. Personal responsibility is the foundation of true understanding in God. Whether your atheist or religious, the first step to enlightenment is taking responsibility for yourself.
I am in search of Truth, but still emptying my cup.
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 08:50 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
I am actually being sincere here. I was raised in a Southern Babtist home and have read the bible a fair share of times, but I am at a total loss when it comes to understanding how Jesus dying on the cross translates into me being forgiven for my "sins".

And please don't just post scripture that just states it matter-of-factly as if I should ignore that we live in a world where things have to correlate.

So they torture him, place him on a cross, and then wait for him to die. He passes away, is reborn and then ascends to heaven. Now I get forgiven if I have impatient thoughts? How does that work? Did he die, go to heaven and flip on a breaker switch, resurrect on earth to check if it worked and then just strolled on back to heaven? What happened during his death that made our sins forgivable?

It's like a father bursting through the door and telling his son that cursing is now allowed in the house because he hit a deer on the way home. How in the world is it connected?
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


It doesn't. the bible is full of lies and so are the teachings about Jesus. The way the soul is constructed, only YOU can clear your sins recorded in your morontial soul. That will be proven as science one day.
 Quoting: Nobody in Particular

Surprisingly, I agree with this statement. I'm glad someone else gets it.
Scrodiddles  (OP)

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07/28/2011 08:50 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
The smart-ass tone of your post suggests you think you are owed a simple explanation that you can put in your favorites folder. F**k you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 596042


Everyone is entitled to the truth. I am no better than you. All though I definitely end conversations differently. But you are probably pretty fucking cool in real life.
I am in search of Truth, but still emptying my cup.
Scrodiddles  (OP)

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07/28/2011 08:51 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
I am actually being sincere here. I was raised in a Southern Babtist home and have read the bible a fair share of times, but I am at a total loss when it comes to understanding how Jesus dying on the cross translates into me being forgiven for my "sins".

And please don't just post scripture that just states it matter-of-factly as if I should ignore that we live in a world where things have to correlate.

So they torture him, place him on a cross, and then wait for him to die. He passes away, is reborn and then ascends to heaven. Now I get forgiven if I have impatient thoughts? How does that work? Did he die, go to heaven and flip on a breaker switch, resurrect on earth to check if it worked and then just strolled on back to heaven? What happened during his death that made our sins forgivable?

It's like a father bursting through the door and telling his son that cursing is now allowed in the house because he hit a deer on the way home. How in the world is it connected?
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


It doesn't. the bible is full of lies and so are the teachings about Jesus. The way the soul is constructed, only YOU can clear your sins recorded in your morontial soul. That will be proven as science one day.
 Quoting: Nobody in Particular

Surprisingly, I agree with this statement. I'm glad someone else gets it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1454000


Hahaha. SURPRISINGLY, me too.
I am in search of Truth, but still emptying my cup.
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 08:51 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Yes, but, as I have said, I am well aware of everything you just said. I have read the same book many times. It is spelled out very clearly in that book but, when it comes to actually explaining what changed, there is no answer. There are just metaphors of his blood and how clean we are now. But in terms of actually saying "Jesus died and his soul left his body with such force that it created a void so intense that all of the energy vibrating at the same frequency was sucked in, inescapably. The only energy that matches the void's vibration is Sin. Hence we are all washed of our sins.

I understand that explanation is lofty and laughable, but to be honest, it is a better attempt than the Bible ever made.

Washing away sins is a metaphor.

But Jesus' blood sacrifice? How can you think that was anything other than literal?

Just because it doesn't fit the 20k meta physical jargon doesn't make it a bad attempt. Maybe you just make a bad attempt at being willing to accept it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475638


I would hope you can see that I managed to upload a picture and pay for an account on GLP so I am clearly not mentally handicapped. I know better than to take anything in religion as something other than a metaphor. But even the metaphor lacks an explanation. There is no sequence of logic that spells out what exactly changed in both the physical and spiritual world when Jesus was killed. It just says "He died for you. And now your sins are forgiven". That is quite a syntax gap if you asked me. The question is "HOW?!". How in the world did his death actually help me be forgiven. Who was condemning me in the first place? God? So why send another of your creations to be killed and then use that as a catalyst to change your mind? There is a lot of reasoning missing here and metaphor, or not, it just isn't enough to really base something of off.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


Yahweh sent the existence of himself into human form. His Spirit, his power, etc. He was the Yahweh in a man the same way Yahweh has come in the form of a burning bush or a pillar of smoke. Someone who created existence can assume the form of his choosing.

The role of Satan is as the accuser and the destroyer. You can look all over the ancient scriptures for evidence of this. So the idea is that yes, it is Yahweh who condemns and it is Satan who goes around bringing accusations against mankind.

So, yes it is Yahweh who was doing the condemning. It is Yahweh who set up the SYSTEM for how man ought to act and what kind of punishment they must receive for how they act.

And so, yes...out of Yahweh's love for mankind he did "wash away our sins" so that we may be seen perfect in his sight.

And yes it is possible for Yahweh to do something just so he can be seen doing it and make us feel uber2x grateful for it.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I just honestly see a few of us making this very clear and every time it's explained you want to go rant about how it doesn't make sense and it's all a bunch of filler to make ends meet.

When, in reality you're the one trying to invent new jargon and new theories to make a confusing issue out of something really plain and simple.
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 08:52 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
It wasn't the death alone but also the suffering in the garden when He sweat drops of blood. There he took upon himself the sins of His people.
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 08:52 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Jesus opened Heaven by His death. Our justification isn't a one time event. Once Saved, Always Saved is a lie.

Satan laughs at false teachings.
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 08:53 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
I can explain WHAT WE KNOW about gravity to anyone and, yes, eventually they will understand it. There is backing to the theories. However, and un-relatedly, I feel we are quite ignorant when it comes to gravities true nature. Now that being said, there is an age old religion built around gravity that has resulted in millions of deaths. At least not yet.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


Actually gravity is an age-old religion that has resulted in millions of deaths as a majority of ancient and modern weaponry uses gravity to achieve its desired effect ...

You may not be able to explain gravity to a tribal jungle indian no matter how hard you try.

I can explain what I know about following Christ to other and they may or may not understand it, because it ultimately is a thing of FATIH.

Regarding these spiritual things: God explains it and provides understading
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 08:53 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
The smart-ass tone of your post suggests you think you are owed a simple explanation that you can put in your favorites folder. F**k you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 596042


There are a lot of strange people running around making this claim, and trying to persuade disinterested people that it matters. So I think it is reasonable to demand an explanation.
fairflight

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07/28/2011 08:54 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
This was your original question:

"but I am at a total loss when it comes to understanding how Jesus dying on the cross translates into me being forgiven for my "sins".


I answered it!

There are "eternal principles and laws" at play and they are strict. Are you as young as your avatar? If so, then you have not had the time or experience to understand the depths of the mysteries of Gods kingdom. Even the prophets, who received visitations and visions were lacking complete understanding, by their own admittance.

Last Edited by fairflight on 07/28/2011 08:54 PM
"Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. ALL truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself."
Scrodiddles  (OP)

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07/28/2011 08:55 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Yes, but, as I have said, I am well aware of everything you just said. I have read the same book many times. It is spelled out very clearly in that book but, when it comes to actually explaining what changed, there is no answer. There are just metaphors of his blood and how clean we are now. But in terms of actually saying "Jesus died and his soul left his body with such force that it created a void so intense that all of the energy vibrating at the same frequency was sucked in, inescapably. The only energy that matches the void's vibration is Sin. Hence we are all washed of our sins.

I understand that explanation is lofty and laughable, but to be honest, it is a better attempt than the Bible ever made.

Washing away sins is a metaphor.

But Jesus' blood sacrifice? How can you think that was anything other than literal?

Just because it doesn't fit the 20k meta physical jargon doesn't make it a bad attempt. Maybe you just make a bad attempt at being willing to accept it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475638


I would hope you can see that I managed to upload a picture and pay for an account on GLP so I am clearly not mentally handicapped. I know better than to take anything in religion as something other than a metaphor. But even the metaphor lacks an explanation. There is no sequence of logic that spells out what exactly changed in both the physical and spiritual world when Jesus was killed. It just says "He died for you. And now your sins are forgiven". That is quite a syntax gap if you asked me. The question is "HOW?!". How in the world did his death actually help me be forgiven. Who was condemning me in the first place? God? So why send another of your creations to be killed and then use that as a catalyst to change your mind? There is a lot of reasoning missing here and metaphor, or not, it just isn't enough to really base something of off.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


Yahweh sent the existence of himself into human form. His Spirit, his power, etc. He was the Yahweh in a man the same way Yahweh has come in the form of a burning bush or a pillar of smoke. Someone who created existence can assume the form of his choosing.

The role of Satan is as the accuser and the destroyer. You can look all over the ancient scriptures for evidence of this. So the idea is that yes, it is Yahweh who condemns and it is Satan who goes around bringing accusations against mankind.

So, yes it is Yahweh who was doing the condemning. It is Yahweh who set up the SYSTEM for how man ought to act and what kind of punishment they must receive for how they act.

And so, yes...out of Yahweh's love for mankind he did "wash away our sins" so that we may be seen perfect in his sight.

And yes it is possible for Yahweh to do something just so he can be seen doing it and make us feel uber2x grateful for it.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I just honestly see a few of us making this very clear and every time it's explained you want to go rant about how it doesn't make sense and it's all a bunch of filler to make ends meet.

When, in reality you're the one trying to invent new jargon and new theories to make a confusing issue out of something really plain and simple.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475638


You do realize that you, along with a handful of other people, have answered my question about a story by simply re-writing the story? That is equal to a physics professor answering a question about an equation, by continually writing the equation on the chalkboard. Repetition is not truth. It is just confusion repeated.

Last Edited by Scrodiddles on 07/28/2011 08:55 PM
I am in search of Truth, but still emptying my cup.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
This is the doctrine of Substitutionary Atonement. In the Old Testament, it was commanded by God that the people sacrifice a perfect lamb so theirs sins would be covered by its innocent blood. Christ came to us in place of the lamb to give His blood as the ultimate sacrifice of the shedding of innocent blood, whoever believed upon his name and accepted His sacrifice,would have their sins forgiven.God was merciful in sending His Son as the payment for our sins, because justice demands that restitution be made for the breaking of the Law.God is perfect so there must be perfect justice, but also perfect mercy.There can never be another blood sacrifice because that would be blasphemy,Christ paid the ultimate price.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1486642


I assure you, I know exactly what you are saying. I have heard the buzzwords more than I can count. I understand what happened according to the doctrine. But I don't understand how one begot the other. How does his death, in a real, logical explanation, actually cause God to forgive my sins? I hope you understand the question I am asking. I am trying to piece together exactly what happens at the moment of Jesus' death that just flips some spiritual switch in the world and now sins are actually things that you can get rid off.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


OK, we first have to look at the nature of God.
First off, God is perfect, but God is not omnipotent. By this I mean that God cannot do anything that is against His own nature. God is limited in what He can do, He cannot lie, He cannot break his promises, etc.
Second, God is perfect mercy. He only wants to be merciful to His children. But that brings us to God's next attribute.
God is perfect justice. Because of this, God will judge all and His verdicts will be true.
But this leads to a great dilemma for God. His children are sinful, and His innate justice demands that they must be punished for their sins, but God is also mercy, and His sense of mercy commands that His children be forgiven. By His own nature God is trapped, justice will only be served if the penalty for sin is paid, but His perfect mercy calls for Him to forgive.
The ultimate penalty for sin is death, physical, spiritual or both. God wants to blot out the sin from His sight, but His perfect justice has to be served. No man can be punished for the sin of another, it would not be just. This is why Christ came to Earth.
Jesus is God incarnated as a man. Only by subjecting Himself to torture, crucifixion and death, could God satisfy both perfect justice and perfect mercy. Upon Himself the Creator of man took all the sins of man, and "By His stripes we are healed".
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 08:57 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
The smart-ass tone of your post suggests you think you are owed a simple explanation that you can put in your favorites folder. F**k you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 596042


There are a lot of strange people running around making this claim, and trying to persuade disinterested people that it matters. So I think it is reasonable to demand an explanation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1485849


Yes but what is unreasonable is to keep receiving a sensible, rational answer and keep rejecting it as not good enough.

So far there is the "Jesus is Santa Claus for adults" posts, which have provided nothing but clutter.

There are the sensible honest answers explaining the logical basis for answering OP's question.

And then there is OP who's like "Guys you don't understand! I'm trying to take religion, and redefine and rename terms to come up with my own religion!"

Just trying to set some reasonable boundaries here (like it matters or something...)
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 08:59 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?

I am actually being sincere here. I was raised in a Southern Babtist home and have read the bible a fair share of times, but I am at a total loss when it comes to understanding how Jesus dying on the cross translates into me being forgiven for my "sins".
...


I will also be sincere.

You will continue to be at total loss to understanding this unless God himself causes you to understand it.
Scrodiddles  (OP)

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07/28/2011 08:59 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
This is the doctrine of Substitutionary Atonement. In the Old Testament, it was commanded by God that the people sacrifice a perfect lamb so theirs sins would be covered by its innocent blood. Christ came to us in place of the lamb to give His blood as the ultimate sacrifice of the shedding of innocent blood, whoever believed upon his name and accepted His sacrifice,would have their sins forgiven.God was merciful in sending His Son as the payment for our sins, because justice demands that restitution be made for the breaking of the Law.God is perfect so there must be perfect justice, but also perfect mercy.There can never be another blood sacrifice because that would be blasphemy,Christ paid the ultimate price.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1486642


I assure you, I know exactly what you are saying. I have heard the buzzwords more than I can count. I understand what happened according to the doctrine. But I don't understand how one begot the other. How does his death, in a real, logical explanation, actually cause God to forgive my sins? I hope you understand the question I am asking. I am trying to piece together exactly what happens at the moment of Jesus' death that just flips some spiritual switch in the world and now sins are actually things that you can get rid off.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


OK, we first have to look at the nature of God.
First off, God is perfect, but God is not omnipotent. By this I mean that God cannot do anything that is against His own nature. God is limited in what He can do, He cannot lie, He cannot break his promises, etc.
Second, God is perfect mercy. He only wants to be merciful to His children. But that brings us to God's next attribute.
God is perfect justice. Because of this, God will judge all and His verdicts will be true.
But this leads to a great dilemma for God. His children are sinful, and His innate justice demands that they must be punished for their sins, but God is also mercy, and His sense of mercy commands that His children be forgiven. By His own nature God is trapped, justice will only be served if the penalty for sin is paid, but His perfect mercy calls for Him to forgive.
The ultimate penalty for sin is death, physical, spiritual or both. God wants to blot out the sin from His sight, but His perfect justice has to be served. No man can be punished for the sin of another, it would not be just. This is why Christ came to Earth.
Jesus is God incarnated as a man. Only by subjecting Himself to torture, crucifixion and death, could God satisfy both perfect justice and perfect mercy. Upon Himself the Creator of man took all the sins of man, and "By His stripes we are healed".
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1486642


I disagree. I believe God is all. The good and bad. All things in perfect balance are God. Nothing is outside of God. So nothing is not of God.

Also, you just said "No man can be punished for the sin of another" then went on to explain that Jesus was crucified for sins that were not his. These are the sort of logical errors that lead me away from the Bible in the first place. I thank you for your response, but have you actually let yourself entertain the option that some things may be in error, be it through translation or purposeful manipulation? I mean, the same people that wanted Jesus killed are also the same ones that used his teachings as a control tool. I am speaking of the Romans.
I am in search of Truth, but still emptying my cup.
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 09:00 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
^
(the bold words in my post above should be quoted to the OP)
Anonymous Coward
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
...


Nothing to forgive here.

What do want to hear as an explanation that will satisfy you?

Yes, search the depths of God.
But also realize that you don't have to fully comprehend something to be a functional part of it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 498151


I will agree with you there. I meditate almost three hours a day and would definitely say that, although I can't possibly fully understand God, I DEFINITELY believe in him/her. I also believe in Jesus and that he is A son of god. As am I. As are you. But the death/sacrifice thing never really got explained well enough for me to understand it. The God I have come to understand uses the elements and forces around us to create this universe. All things are bound by God's creative laws. The sacrifice of Jesus leading to all of our sins being forgiven jumps outside of the laws our God uses to hold this Universe together. There is no correlation. It is basically one statement trying to be connected to another statement. Nothing, within the realm of reason, has seemed to explain this crucifixion thing. All I see is a man that rose above the bindings of the flesh and understood God's workings so perfectly that he could actually make them work for him: i.e. walking on water, curing illness. But his teachings actually fit better if he was trying to explain to people that the only way to rise above the suffering of physical bonds was to seek the truth of our father and ascend just like Jesus: "The only way to salvation is through me".
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


You used a quote so fair is fair: "What My Father has given to Me nothing can take them out of My hand".

Christ beat satan and stole his lunch, now "Where do You want to go today?"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1457831


Fair is fair, I agree. But I haven't the slightest clue what you are trying to say to me.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


Everyone in the Bible that decided to live for Yahweh and Christ were persecuted and hated and tortured and jailed and starved and killed (and the list goes on) by everyone else, the reason why is because everyone who lives for Yahweh and Christ are righteous and everyone else is not.

When You live for Yahweh and/or Christ You are righteous and being persecuted for being righteous is washing Your sins(dirty robe) away in the blood of the Lamb.

Knowing the Truth is a federal offence to satan and most of earth's population belong to satan.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
OK, we first have to look at the nature of God.
First off, God is perfect, but God is not omnipotent. By this I mean that God cannot do anything that is against His own nature. God is limited in what He can do, He cannot lie, He cannot break his promises, etc.
Second, God is perfect mercy. He only wants to be merciful to His children. But that brings us to God's next attribute.
God is perfect justice. Because of this, God will judge all and His verdicts will be true.
But this leads to a great dilemma for God. His children are sinful, and His innate justice demands that they must be punished for their sins, but God is also mercy, and His sense of mercy commands that His children be forgiven. By His own nature God is trapped, justice will only be served if the penalty for sin is paid, but His perfect mercy calls for Him to forgive.
The ultimate penalty for sin is death, physical, spiritual or both. God wants to blot out the sin from His sight, but His perfect justice has to be served. No man can be punished for the sin of another, it would not be just. This is why Christ came to Earth.
Jesus is God incarnated as a man. Only by subjecting Himself to torture, crucifixion and death, could God satisfy both perfect justice and perfect mercy. Upon Himself the Creator of man took all the sins of man, and "By His stripes we are healed".
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1486642

You seem to be a person with knowledge. So maybe you can answer something for me. To accept what you say presupposes that we accept a certain set of assumptions about the nature of reality and the structure of our universe. We have to accept the supernatural beings that you mention, plus all those mentioned in various writings about these. So what I am interested to understand is why a superstition based view of the cosmos is important. We have to accept this basic premise before accepting the superstitions that you mention. Can you enlighten me?
Scrodiddles  (OP)

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07/28/2011 09:01 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
The smart-ass tone of your post suggests you think you are owed a simple explanation that you can put in your favorites folder. F**k you.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 596042


There are a lot of strange people running around making this claim, and trying to persuade disinterested people that it matters. So I think it is reasonable to demand an explanation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1485849


Yes but what is unreasonable is to keep receiving a sensible, rational answer and keep rejecting it as not good enough.

So far there is the "Jesus is Santa Claus for adults" posts, which have provided nothing but clutter.

There are the sensible honest answers explaining the logical basis for answering OP's question.

And then there is OP who's like "Guys you don't understand! I'm trying to take religion, and redefine and rename terms to come up with my own religion!"

Just trying to set some reasonable boundaries here (like it matters or something...)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475638


There are post on here that I can not control and they may not be very fair towards Christianity, but I am trying to be reasonable. I will, however, disagree that actual answers were given. If you read back you will see that people have only repeated the story and offered no explanation. I have had the story repeated to me by very frustrated pastors all my life. I have even had one scream "I don't know! Just have faith, kid!"

So forgive me if repetition is not accepted as a plausible answer.
I am in search of Truth, but still emptying my cup.
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 09:02 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Hello OP,

Jesus is a good wrestler. If he is calling you he will wrestle you to the ground and pin you for the count. Then you will understand his purpose and his mission.

No man can not respond when The Father calls him. Jesus does not lose any wrestling matches... lol...

But make no mistake, unless the Father calls a man to The LORD. That man will not hear or understand his words.

So if you are wrestling with God, keep on keeping on. When you have been pinned on the mat. remember to say 'mercy'...

ok... peace,
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 09:03 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
...
I disagree. I believe God is all. The good and bad. All things in perfect balance are God. Nothing is outside of God. So nothing is not of God.

 Quoting: Scrodiddles


This is God as you see it and believe it to be.
This your faith.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Yes, but, as I have said, I am well aware of everything you just said. I have read the same book many times. It is spelled out very clearly in that book but, when it comes to actually explaining what changed, there is no answer. There are just metaphors of his blood and how clean we are now. But in terms of actually saying "Jesus died and his soul left his body with such force that it created a void so intense that all of the energy vibrating at the same frequency was sucked in, inescapably. The only energy that matches the void's vibration is Sin. Hence we are all washed of our sins.

I understand that explanation is lofty and laughable, but to be honest, it is a better attempt than the Bible ever made.

Washing away sins is a metaphor.

But Jesus' blood sacrifice? How can you think that was anything other than literal?

Just because it doesn't fit the 20k meta physical jargon doesn't make it a bad attempt. Maybe you just make a bad attempt at being willing to accept it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475638


I would hope you can see that I managed to upload a picture and pay for an account on GLP so I am clearly not mentally handicapped. I know better than to take anything in religion as something other than a metaphor. But even the metaphor lacks an explanation. There is no sequence of logic that spells out what exactly changed in both the physical and spiritual world when Jesus was killed. It just says "He died for you. And now your sins are forgiven". That is quite a syntax gap if you asked me. The question is "HOW?!". How in the world did his death actually help me be forgiven. Who was condemning me in the first place? God? So why send another of your creations to be killed and then use that as a catalyst to change your mind? There is a lot of reasoning missing here and metaphor, or not, it just isn't enough to really base something of off.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


Yahweh sent the existence of himself into human form. His Spirit, his power, etc. He was the Yahweh in a man the same way Yahweh has come in the form of a burning bush or a pillar of smoke. Someone who created existence can assume the form of his choosing.

The role of Satan is as the accuser and the destroyer. You can look all over the ancient scriptures for evidence of this. So the idea is that yes, it is Yahweh who condemns and it is Satan who goes around bringing accusations against mankind.

So, yes it is Yahweh who was doing the condemning. It is Yahweh who set up the SYSTEM for how man ought to act and what kind of punishment they must receive for how they act.

And so, yes...out of Yahweh's love for mankind he did "wash away our sins" so that we may be seen perfect in his sight.

And yes it is possible for Yahweh to do something just so he can be seen doing it and make us feel uber2x grateful for it.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I just honestly see a few of us making this very clear and every time it's explained you want to go rant about how it doesn't make sense and it's all a bunch of filler to make ends meet.

When, in reality you're the one trying to invent new jargon and new theories to make a confusing issue out of something really plain and simple.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475638


You do realize that you, along with a handful of other people, have answered my question about a story by simply re-writing the story? That is equal to a physics professor answering a question about an equation, by continually writing the equation on the chalkboard. Repetition is not truth. It is just confusion repeated.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


Hey buddy, this is religion. I'm explaining a belief that pertains to a specific religion. Your answer has been supplied logically, reasonably, and honestly.

So all of your dodging and questions and blabbity-bla-bla basically could be reworded to say...

"Hey guys, can I have physical proof for why I should have faith in something?"

And it's just not going to happen. Religion requires your faith. Accepting the sacrifice of Jesus requires faith. Understanding it doesn't require faith. But accepting it sure will. So if you don't accept it, then don't. If you don't want to have faith in it, then don't. If you don't believe faith should ever be applied to an issue, then don't. But don't act like you aren't being given a substantial answer.
Anonymous Coward
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07/28/2011 09:04 PM
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
I have had the story repeated to me by very frustrated pastors all my life. I have even had one scream "I don't know! Just have faith, kid!"

So forgive me if repetition is not accepted as a plausible answer.
 Quoting: Scrodiddles


That is so sad and wrong.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: How did Jesus' death wash away our sins?
Hey buddy, this is religion. I'm explaining a belief that pertains to a specific religion. Your answer has been supplied logically, reasonably, and honestly.

So all of your dodging and questions and blabbity-bla-bla basically could be reworded to say...

"Hey guys, can I have physical proof for why I should have faith in something?"

And it's just not going to happen. Religion requires your faith. Accepting the sacrifice of Jesus requires faith. Understanding it doesn't require faith. But accepting it sure will. So if you don't accept it, then don't. If you don't want to have faith in it, then don't. If you don't believe faith should ever be applied to an issue, then don't. But don't act like you aren't being given a substantial answer.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1475638


+1 : good point.





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