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Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)

 
Bored Huge Krill

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01/17/2006 08:16 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
one could also point out the absurdity of his claim that he "didn't have a calculator".

Since he's posting, he's sitting in front of a freaking *COMPUTER*. Tell me, which operating system is it he's using that doesn't have a calculator program that comes bundled with it?

Regards
Krill
Bored Huge Krill

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01/17/2006 08:43 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
"I personally don't have the resources to compute the result, and neither do you. That you think it is possible to solve a set of differential equations in seven variables in 8 minutes with a pocket calculator indicates how little grasp of the problem you have."

I'll correct myself: you don't need seven independent variables - you can reduce it to much fewer. My bad. By the way, Grant, how many do you think there are?

Regards
Krill
Grant NLI
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01/17/2006 10:40 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
You guys are full of laughs. Something came up and I am busy for the 24 to 48 hours, so entertain us in the mean time, but I will spend the 10 seconds on schedule to bump. I apologize for the delay. You can spin anyway you want, see when I am finished.
Deacon Blue
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01/17/2006 11:42 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
In other words; If I didn't keep bumping my own threads, they would fall off the page!"
rofl 1rof1 rofl 1rof1 rofl 1rof1 rofl 1rof1
Anonymous Coward
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01/18/2006 09:51 AM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
"Something came up and I am busy for the 24 to 48 hours"

I'd guess that something is Grant desperately trying to learn enough science to carry on the argument without getting tripped up again...

1rof1
Halcyon Dayz

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01/18/2006 01:26 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
Then we might as well wait a decade.

rimshot
Reaching for the sky makes you taller.

Hi! My name is Halcyon Dayz and I'm addicted to morans.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/18/2006 06:06 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
bump
Bored Huge Krill

User ID: 55138
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01/18/2006 06:32 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
and *still* Grant comes back to bump the thread...

1rof1

Grant,
time to give up, methinks. By the way, 11 days and counting

Regards
Krill
Anonymous Coward
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01/18/2006 07:01 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
Grant, I thought you had some "urgent business" that was going to occupy you for the next 24 to 48 hours.

And what's the point in bumping this thread anyway? We'll all be here heckling you, waiting for your answer, so it's not going to go away...

1rof1
Grant NLI (OP)
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01/19/2006 09:19 AM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
Krill I will post to you tonight
Circuit Breaker

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01/19/2006 10:16 AM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
We've been hearing that for almost two weeks Grant.
A voice of reason in a world of woo-woos.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/19/2006 11:22 AM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
bump
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2006 03:37 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
... and still he comes back to bump the thread.

Grant, you are a living definition of the word "moron"!
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/19/2006 05:48 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
bump
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2006 06:24 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
... and still he comes back to bump the thread.

Grant, you are a living definition of the word "moron"!

1rof1

Where's your answer to Krill then Grant?

Or are you just going to "play bumpity"?
Circuit Breaker

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01/19/2006 06:52 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
Grant's hoping we'll all lose interest. Then he'll claim everyone ran away and declare "victory" over something.
A voice of reason in a world of woo-woos.
Bored Huge Krill

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01/19/2006 07:13 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
what's truly beyond me is why Grant would keep bumping a page where he runs away and everybody else laughs at him. What's up with that?

[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's left arm off]
ARTHUR: Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
BLACK KNIGHT: 'Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR: A scratch? Your arm's off!
BLACK KNIGHT: No, it isn't.
ARTHUR: Well, what's that then?
BLACK KNIGHT: I've had worse.
ARTHUR: You liar!
BLACK KNIGHT: Come on you pansy!
[hah]
[parry thrust]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right arm off]
ARTHUR: Victory is mine!
[kneeling]
We thank thee Lord, that in thy merc-
[Black Knight kicks Arthur in the head while he is praying]
BLACK KNIGHT: Come on then.
ARTHUR: What?
BLACK KNIGHT: Have at you!
ARTHUR: You are indeed brave, Sir knight, but the fight is mine.
BLACK KNIGHT: Oh, had enough, eh?
ARTHUR: Look, you stupid bastard, you've got no arms left.
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2006 07:24 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
"what's truly beyond me is why Grant would keep bumping a page where he runs away and everybody else laughs at him. What's up with that?"

I think the "moron" explanation covers that quite well...
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2006 09:19 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
People with a pathological need for attention seldom care whether it is positive or negative.

A guy I went to high school with, who probably had Asperger's or something similar, had a number of quite extreme attention-seeking behaviours that were quite sad to observe. His baseline expression was a comically exaggerated mope, obviously intended to make someone ask "hey, what's wrong? Let me mother you and coddle you". It never worked, but that didn't matter, he wore that expression for five years straight. Standard definition of insanity and all that.

He was, of course, constantly bullied and ridiculed, which he loved, because he was at the centre of it. The most disgusting incident, which left me horrified, was when a group of five kids invited him to play "spit invaders", where he marched back and forth like a duck in a shooting gallery while they horked loogies at him. The fact he was a willing participant made it all so much worse.

Grant would seem to have a similar problem. It's probable that he gets off on the ridicule through some twisted sense of being an unsung genius abiding the slings and arrows of the philistines. He bumps the threads specifically to invite negative comments because it perversely reinforces his sense of superiority. Standard definition of etc etc...
Bored Huge Krill

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01/19/2006 11:43 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
ok, it's 11:40 PM EST. I'm going to provisionally declare this discussion over...

Grant, FWIW, please understand that, irrespective of any discussion or ribbing on this thread I don't in any way dislike you; I merely disagree with you.

I think you're wrong about what you're saying on this subject. The specifics of my disagreements, and those of others, have been pointed out to you. I haven't seen anything which could be considered an adequate response.

Maybe time to call it a day?

Regards
Krill
Grant  (OP)

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01/20/2006 01:26 AM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
Let’s Recap with their Words

"a) above that radius gravity will overwhelm pressure and the mass will collapse in on itself

b) below that radius the pressure will overwhelm the gravity and the mass will expand

do you agree with this?

Yes"

okay... so this radius is that at which the gas is in hydrostatic equilibrium, and all we have to do is figure out what that radius is.

Consider a mass about that of the Sun, or some small multiple thereof.

If the radius is small (say a few million miles, that means that a cloud of gas of that mass half a light year across will collapse under the force of gravity (see point a)). If it turns out to be a very large number (like, say, 10 light years), that means is won't - it will instead expand due to the pressure (see point b)).

Do you agree?

You still haven't answered the question, though. Do you agree with the proposition at the end of the last page? Yes or no? Do you want me to re-post it on this page? What are you scared of?

He must be one of those idiot savants that can do really difficult calculations in his head. Or maybe he's just the "idiot" part...

I'll correct myself: you don't need seven independent variables - you can reduce it to much fewer. My bad. By the way, Grant, how many do you think there are?

Regards
Krill

I'd guess that something is Grant desperately trying to learn enough science to carry on the argument without getting tripped up again...

Grant,
time to give up, methinks. By the way, 11 days and counting
Regards
Krill

what's truly beyond me is why Grant would keep bumping a page where he runs away and everybody else laughs at him. What's up with that?

ok, it's 11:40 PM EST. I'm going to provisionally declare this discussion over...

Grant, FWIW, please understand that, irrespective of any discussion or ribbing on this thread I don't in any way dislike you; I merely disagree with you.

I think you're wrong about what you're saying on this subject. The specifics of my disagreements, and those of others, have been pointed out to you. I haven't seen anything which could be considered an adequate response.

Maybe time to call it a day?

Regards
Krill

"Since the temperature of outer space is near absolute zero gravity would only allow little contraction before the process is stopped far short of the presses needed to create fusion and ignite a stellar object."

Again, why? Just because you say so doesn't make it the case.

The only way you could easily determine what would happen (just thinking off the top of my head) would be to perform a large numerical simulation, using all the physical models that we've been talking about (gravity, gas pressure etc) and see what happens.

Luckily, it's already been done. In fact, it's been done many, many times by different people, and the result replicated. Here's a quote from one:

"The simulation followed the collapse of an interstellar gas cloud more than 1 light-year in diameter and containing a mass of gas and dust equal to 50 Suns. The end result, after 266,000 years, was the formation of a cluster of stars typical to our galaxy."


of course, this is just a report on a popular science website. If you want details and actual papers, just do a google search. You'll find more than you have time to read.

Regards
Krill

Grant’s Response: Numerical Simulation of Krill’s above example

[link to www.grantchronicles.com]
Grant  (OP)

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01/20/2006 01:34 AM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
bump
Grant  (OP)

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01/20/2006 02:15 AM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
bump
Anonymous Coward
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01/20/2006 08:13 AM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
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Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/20/2006 09:44 AM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
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Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/20/2006 11:10 AM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
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GrantNLI (OP)
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01/20/2006 11:29 AM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
Repost of the shorten Grant Response to Krill last night

"Since the temperature of outer space is near absolute zero gravity would only allow little contraction before the process is stopped far short of the presses needed to create fusion and ignite a stellar object."

Again, why? Just because you say so doesn't make it the case.

The only way you could easily determine what would happen (just thinking off the top of my head) would be to perform a large numerical simulation, using all the physical models that we've been talking about (gravity, gas pressure etc) and see what happens.

Luckily, it's already been done. In fact, it's been done many, many times by different people, and the result replicated. Here's a quote from one:

"The simulation followed the collapse of an interstellar gas cloud more than 1 light-year in diameter and containing a mass of gas and dust equal to 50 Suns. The end result, after 266,000 years, was the formation of a cluster of stars typical to our galaxy."


of course, this is just a report on a popular science website. If you want details and actual papers, just do a google search. You'll find more than you have time to read.

Regards
Krill

Grant’s Response: Numerical Simulation of Krill’s above example
[link to www.grantchronicles.com]
Anonymous Coward
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01/20/2006 12:00 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
d'oh. Spoke too soon...

Well, at least you posted something - although it *still* doesn't respond to the magnetic field question that you've been promising for 14 days now and claim you've had all along. Not only that, but it's so full of errors I barely know where to start. Not trying to be nasty or anything; it's just that it is.


Let's start with this: nothing you post here constitutes a "numerical simulation". It's still just a bunch of 7th grade formula plugging, and in order to do it you have tossed out most of the important variables. The link you reproduce to an actual numerical simulation (the link originally provided by me) which does include all of this stuff arrives at the opposite conclusion that you do.

No matter; there's plenty of other errors to look at.

First, you attempt to calculate the gravity at the surface of a sphere of fixed mass as the radius changes from half a light year to the orbital radius of Mercury. Ok, so far so good (wow - an actual correct answer).

Then you attempt to also calculate the pressure, and this is where the wheels come off. Firstly, you can't make the assumption that the pressure is constant throughout the sphere at all times. Although it might be at first, it certainly won't be later on - that's sort of the whole point of the hydrostatic equilibrium equations.

Secondly, you can't figure out the pressure by dividing the mass by the volume. That would give you the density, not the pressure.

Kilograms are not a unit of force - they're a unit of mass. For cosmological purposes, the difference is sort of important.

In order to determine the pressure, you'd need to use something like the ideal gas law:

P = nRT/V

Which is sort of problematic for you: since you're assuming the temperature to be infinitessimally close to absolute zero (another variable you don't want to deal with, but which is very important), you'd have a pressure of, well, zero - which of course is the opposite of what you want.

So now we don't have any sensible numbers at all here - but let's be generous and assume that, in your calculations, we can just call 1kg = 10N to make everything square again (this is of course complete baloney, but hey, who's counting? It's extremely generous in your favor, also).

Using that with your own numbers yields a value for "P", what you claim is the initial pressure, of:

2.3 x 10^-15 Pa

and your claimed pressure when the cloud has collapsed to a radius equal to the orbit of Mercury of:

2.3 Pa

Just to be clear, that last figure is:

.000023 Atmospheres

So, even taking your own ludicrous mathematics at face value and supplying generous additional baloney required to fill in the blanks, you still end up concluding that this gas cloud, by the time it's shrunk to within the orbit of Mercury, is going to have gravity at its surface a quarter of Earth's surface gravity, but pressure only .002% of the air pressure at the Earth's surface.

And yet you conclude that this pressure is sufficient to prevent the cloud from collapsing? If that were true, the "gigantic" air pressure right here would cause all of the air on Earth to be blown away into space. Personally, I'm quite happy that you're still off by several orders of magnitude.

Regards
Krill
Bored Huge Krill

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01/20/2006 12:02 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
above from me, obviously... got logged out while typing it

Regards
Krill
Anonymous Coward
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01/20/2006 01:21 PM
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Re: Magnetic Stars: Rebuttal to Max Planck Institute (Advanced Draft Release: The Grant Chronicles)
Once again Grant shows his complete and utter lack of understanding of physics and mathematics...





GLP