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Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.

 
Anonymous Coward
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08/14/2012 04:04 PM
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Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Why did God put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden?

What purpose did it serve?

Did God Himself need the knowledge of good and evil?

Did He have to take a piece of the magical fruit now and again to refresh His memory?

We can assume that He did not. Did any of the animals of the Garden need the Tree? We can assume not.

What kind of tree was this?

An apple tree, an orange tree, a banana tree?

The bible does not tell us.

How could a tree, an organism of wood and sap, contain the knowledge of good and evil? What capacity did it have for storing such knowledge, and how was that knowledge passed on by eating and digesting it?

Allow yourself to think about that... Why, therefore, among all the useful and decorative trees in the Garden of Eden, did God deliberately include this tree, the tree that carries the warning: "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"?

Did He put it in the Garden as a temptation to tempt Adam and Eve? The bible says very clearly that cannot be the case. God does not tempt: "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man." (James 1:13)

Therefore, we have a tree of a nature that we cannot comprehend, whose fruit is so sinful to consume that it would result in the immediate and eternal damnation of humankind, placed in a location so precarious as to make that outcome an inevitability, all apparently for no purpose whatever.

Imagine a caring, loving parent leaving a loaded pistol in the playroom of a five year old child, knowing full well what the result will be, and watching from a crack in the door as the child blows his brains out.

Did God know Eve would eat the fruit? Of course He did! We are told by the bible that God knows all things from the Beginning unto the End. Did He not know Eve would give it to Adam? Of course He did.

Did He not know that the serpent would tempt Eve? He did, if we are to accept the bible. Therefore, did Eve have any free will in the matter?

Could she have acted in a manner other than God had foreseen for her? Of course not! How could she? How was the serpent able to speak?

Did it give itself this remarkable ability? How does the mouth of a snake, with no lips or proper teeth, and no articulate tongue, form human words? How did the tiny brain of a snake become wise and subtle? Who made it so? Who was responsible for putting the principle actors-- Adam, Eve, the serpent and the Tree-- all together in the Garden of Eden? God, of course.

The inescapable conclusion? That He put all the pieces on the game board, and enacted His own little drama, resulting in the deliberate, eternal damnation of Humankind. In the words of Ingersoll: could a devil have done worse?

We are told that at their creation, Adam and Eve, like small children, did not posses the knowledge of good and evil, of right from wrong.

I wonder why God wanted to withhold this from them...

Should Adam and Eve therefore be held responsible for committing an action prior to them having the Knowledge of Good and Evil? I would not think so.

They disobeyed an instruction before they knew it was wrong to disobey. Was this the Ultimate Sin, for which every human being ever born was to pay with their eternal soul?

Was that the worse thing that Adam and Eve could have done? They could have beaten and slaughtered each other, and destroyed their paradise. But they did not do anything so cruel or barbaric.

They ate a piece of fruit, contrary to the will of an arbitrary god. People disobey God's commands millions of times every day all over the earth-- from lying and stealing to murder and worshipping other gods... why then was Adam and Eve's simple disobedience to carry such a heavy price? It would have been fair of God to give Eve this same warning...but He did not.

He uttered it before He pulled out Adam's rib and made a whole woman. (Why did He not use the dirt again, I wonder?) We have no record of God or Adam telling Eve of this dreadful warning, so why should she be held accountable?

Would you treat your own children that way? Would you condemn them to eternal torture, infinite revenge, never ending intense pain with no chance of pardon, for taking a cookie out of the cookie jar before dinner, after you had told them not to?

And would you condemn your children's children, and all generations that will come after? What sort of justice is this? No natural person can condone this. All that the Christians can say is that we cannot understand God's method of justice. That is all they can say.

Why should I be held responsible for Eve's decision to eat the fruit? Why should you?

If your distant ancestor, four hundred years ago, killed a man in an act of cruel and pointless savagery, should you be handed a life sentence in prison for it?

God Himself states in the bible that He does not punish the children for the sins of their fathers.

Are we to conclude by this that we have no sin upon us as the result of our births? No stain of eternal depravity upon us? Might not the notion of Original Sin be the fabrication of the Church, in order that they might further their careers and ensure their survival?

For if one does not need to be saved, one does not need priests and preachers. Christians tells us that without their religion, all of us are doomed without hope.

They try to convince us of the dilemma they have created for us, then try to convince us that they alone have the remedy. Christianity cuts you and then tries to sell you a Band-Aid.

Because of the Fall of Man, we are told that it is not enough that we are good and caring people, not enough that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us, not enough that we forgive those who trespass against us. We must be baptized-- have our heads wet by a priest-- a meaningless gesture, and proclaim that we accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior.

We must believe the unbelievable. A Hindu, who happens to be more charitable and humane than the best Christian, is nonetheless consigned to eternal damnation, just as the kind and gentle native of some tropical island who never heard of Jesus and his cross.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17152779
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08/14/2012 04:09 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
The serpent was the hero of the story. We should always question authority, even if we don't like the answers.
Anonymous Coward
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Netherlands
08/14/2012 04:11 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Hey that is right.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 863287
United States
08/14/2012 04:12 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
The serpent was the hero of the story. We should always question authority, even if we don't like the answers.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17152779


The serpent was the hero of the story. We should always question authority, even if we don't like the answers.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17152779


trees in bible represent families- nations of people

it's not a literal tree, snake, or piece of fruit

Gen 3- is an allegory of what happened to a people-Adam man

Eve means life container
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 18114581
Australia
08/14/2012 04:20 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
If, as the Christian doctrine teaches, the only way to salvation is through Christ, what became of all the souls of the people who died before Jesus' appearance on earth?

All those Old Testament figures, all those who died in battle? Millions of people, to be sure. They had no chance of salvation before Jesus, had they?

If we are to believe the dogma of salvation through faith, then we must believe that by their mere birth, they were consigned to hell without a chance, no matter how virtuously they lived.

Why do you suppose God waited so long to send Himself down in the form of Jesus?

Did He care nothing for the souls of all those men, women and children born between the four thousand years of time between Adam and Jesus?

What of all those instances when God commanded His servants to kill men, women and children, sparing no one, knowing full well that they had no chance to be saved?

Why didn't Jesus appear in the generation immediately following Cain and Abel, when the number of persons on earth could be counted on one hand?

The task of convincing people that Jesus was in fact God would have been effortless. In such a scenario, every human ever born would have a much fairer chance of attaining salvation.

Because of God's failure to do this, however, the vast majority of people who ever lived were doomed without hope.

Christians tell us that Christ died to absolve Original Sin, so that all who believe in him might be saved.

It is written that he came for the sole purpose of dying.

Would it not then have been just as well if he had died of a fever, or of smallpox, or of old age, or from any other reason?

We all suffer in some sense, and we all come into the world for the ultimately sole purpose of dying.

When is enough punishment enough?

How much will the God of Love inflict upon His children? First there was the Fall from Grace.

That was supposed to be the ultimate punishment, when mankind became separated from the presence of God and cast out of the Garden of Eden.

When that did not succeed, God sent the Great Flood, and killed virtually every human on earth.

When that did not cleanse the world of wickedness, Jesus came to earth and taught mankind about the fires and torments of Hell.

This tactic is obviously failing, and we are told that even Hell is not enough punishment and suffering; for it is written that Armageddon and Judgment Day are yet to come.

If God's justice was totally satisfied with the sacrifice of Jesus, as Christian Doctrine teaches, then why all the horror, torture and killing that is yet to come at Armageddon, where nearly everyone on earth, Christian and infidel, will be subject to pain, suffering and death? The reason is that I suppose that once you have a taste for a certain habit, it is difficult to stop.

And Jehovah has certainly demonstrated that He has acquired that taste.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 18114581
Australia
08/14/2012 04:26 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Some Christians believe that those who die without hearing the Gospel are not automatically damned.

Somehow, in the afterlife, they will be presented with the Truth, and have a chance to repent at that time. This may seem like a pretty fair scenario, except when you consider that Christians have been commanded to spread the Gospel message to as many as possible here on earth, often at great risk to themselves, and the people receiving the message.

And the irony of this is, because of one thing or another in their lives, or maybe the imperfect manner in which the Gospel was presented to them, most unbelievers who hear the Message will not choose to believe it.

Thus, they are damned to hell, with no further opportunity to repent. So the question arises: when will the Gospel message be more compelling and most accurately delivered–by us in this life, or by Jesus himself in the next? Obviously the next.
For then you will already have one foot in the door, so to speak. No need to convince you of the afterlife, because you are already there.

No need to make you believe in Jesus (and risk misrepresenting Him), for you can meet Him yourself. And what better way to convince people of the horrors of hell than to give them an actual glimpse into it? So if this is the case, telling someone the Gospel message in this life could well be the worst thing you could do for them.

It’s sort of like surgery.

Isn’t it better to wait for a qualified surgeon, in a sterile operating room, to perform the procedure?

Then there are Christians who believe that once you die, that’s it.

There is no chance at salvation in the afterlife.

What–you lived in South America in 31 A.D.? Too bad.

Unbelievers who die go to hell, period, regardless of whether or not they have heard the Gospel.

But then how can we believe that God is fair when He gives some a chance to repent, but not others? Usually those who believe this also add that there is something called "natural law," where even if you have never heard the Christian message, your God-given conscience will tell you what is right, and what is wrong.

And the extent to which you follow that conscience will either damn you or save you.

But again, that makes the whole evangelism thing meaningless.

Why risk the crocodiles and the malaria in the jungles to bring the Word to the savages when they don't really need to hear it anyway?

It makes any attempts to spread the Gospel an utter waste of time.

And then there are those Christians who believe in predestination.

God knows who will be saved anyway.

If you are predestined, nothing can stop you from becoming a Christian. And if you are not, nothing can compel you. Again I wonder, what’s the point of evangelism?
paul
User ID: 21961138
United Kingdom
08/14/2012 04:32 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Why did God put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden?

What purpose did it serve?

Did God Himself need the knowledge of good and evil?

Did He have to take a piece of the magical fruit now and again to refresh His memory?

We can assume that He did not. Did any of the animals of the Garden need the Tree? We can assume not.

What kind of tree was this?

An apple tree, an orange tree, a banana tree?

The bible does not tell us.

How could a tree, an organism of wood and sap, contain the knowledge of good and evil? What capacity did it have for storing such knowledge, and how was that knowledge passed on by eating and digesting it?

Allow yourself to think about that... Why, therefore, among all the useful and decorative trees in the Garden of Eden, did God deliberately include this tree, the tree that carries the warning: "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"?

Did He put it in the Garden as a temptation to tempt Adam and Eve? The bible says very clearly that cannot be the case. God does not tempt: "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man." (James 1:13)

Therefore, we have a tree of a nature that we cannot comprehend, whose fruit is so sinful to consume that it would result in the immediate and eternal damnation of humankind, placed in a location so precarious as to make that outcome an inevitability, all apparently for no purpose whatever.

Imagine a caring, loving parent leaving a loaded pistol in the playroom of a five year old child, knowing full well what the result will be, and watching from a crack in the door as the child blows his brains out.

Did God know Eve would eat the fruit? Of course He did! We are told by the bible that God knows all things from the Beginning unto the End. Did He not know Eve would give it to Adam? Of course He did.

Did He not know that the serpent would tempt Eve? He did, if we are to accept the bible. Therefore, did Eve have any free will in the matter?

Could she have acted in a manner other than God had foreseen for her? Of course not! How could she? How was the serpent able to speak?

Did it give itself this remarkable ability? How does the mouth of a snake, with no lips or proper teeth, and no articulate tongue, form human words? How did the tiny brain of a snake become wise and subtle? Who made it so? Who was responsible for putting the principle actors-- Adam, Eve, the serpent and the Tree-- all together in the Garden of Eden? God, of course.

The inescapable conclusion? That He put all the pieces on the game board, and enacted His own little drama, resulting in the deliberate, eternal damnation of Humankind. In the words of Ingersoll: could a devil have done worse?

We are told that at their creation, Adam and Eve, like small children, did not posses the knowledge of good and evil, of right from wrong.

I wonder why God wanted to withhold this from them...

Should Adam and Eve therefore be held responsible for committing an action prior to them having the Knowledge of Good and Evil? I would not think so.

They disobeyed an instruction before they knew it was wrong to disobey. Was this the Ultimate Sin, for which every human being ever born was to pay with their eternal soul?

Was that the worse thing that Adam and Eve could have done? They could have beaten and slaughtered each other, and destroyed their paradise. But they did not do anything so cruel or barbaric.

They ate a piece of fruit, contrary to the will of an arbitrary god. People disobey God's commands millions of times every day all over the earth-- from lying and stealing to murder and worshipping other gods... why then was Adam and Eve's simple disobedience to carry such a heavy price? It would have been fair of God to give Eve this same warning...but He did not.

He uttered it before He pulled out Adam's rib and made a whole woman. (Why did He not use the dirt again, I wonder?) We have no record of God or Adam telling Eve of this dreadful warning, so why should she be held accountable?

Would you treat your own children that way? Would you condemn them to eternal torture, infinite revenge, never ending intense pain with no chance of pardon, for taking a cookie out of the cookie jar before dinner, after you had told them not to?

And would you condemn your children's children, and all generations that will come after? What sort of justice is this? No natural person can condone this. All that the Christians can say is that we cannot understand God's method of justice. That is all they can say.

Why should I be held responsible for Eve's decision to eat the fruit? Why should you?

If your distant ancestor, four hundred years ago, killed a man in an act of cruel and pointless savagery, should you be handed a life sentence in prison for it?

God Himself states in the bible that He does not punish the children for the sins of their fathers.

Are we to conclude by this that we have no sin upon us as the result of our births? No stain of eternal depravity upon us? Might not the notion of Original Sin be the fabrication of the Church, in order that they might further their careers and ensure their survival?

For if one does not need to be saved, one does not need priests and preachers. Christians tells us that without their religion, all of us are doomed without hope.

They try to convince us of the dilemma they have created for us, then try to convince us that they alone have the remedy. Christianity cuts you and then tries to sell you a Band-Aid.

Because of the Fall of Man, we are told that it is not enough that we are good and caring people, not enough that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us, not enough that we forgive those who trespass against us. We must be baptized-- have our heads wet by a priest-- a meaningless gesture, and proclaim that we accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior.

We must believe the unbelievable. A Hindu, who happens to be more charitable and humane than the best Christian, is nonetheless consigned to eternal damnation, just as the kind and gentle native of some tropical island who never heard of Jesus and his cross.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18114581


Imagine a caring, loving parent leaving a loaded pistol in the playroom of a five year old child,.....................
.
.
Adam and Eve were Adults not children,so forget that statment!!!.........................
.
Did it give itself this remarkable ability? How does the mouth of a snake, with no lips or proper teeth, and no articulate tongue, form human words? How did the tiny brain of a snake become wise and subtle?..........
.
The Garden of Eden was completely different to our reality,maybe the snake could talk telepathic,remember it was a pure place and i`m sure telepathicy was just normal,being at one with every thing.
.
.
.
.
Would you treat your own children that way? Would you condemn them to eternal torture, infinite revenge, never ending intense pain with no chance of pardon, for taking a cookie out of the cookie jar before dinner, after you had told them not to?.............cookie and This ONE rule to staying in the Garden of Eden............
.
.
.
.
.
We must believe the unbelievable. A Hindu, who happens to be more charitable and humane than the best Christian, is nonetheless consigned to eternal damnation, just as the kind and gentle native of some tropical island who never heard of Jesus and his cross????????????????????????????????
.
Good question and the answer is simple before the end of this planet Earth(2nd peter chapter3=God’s Promise Is Not Slack
3 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us,[a] the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The Day of the Lord

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[c] 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Be Steadfast

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him,).....but b4 the earth ends 2 witnesses will come apon our planet and they will meet these jungle people u mention in your last paragraph,to read about these 2 Witnesses go to Revelation chapter11,verse3-14 = 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

The Witnesses Killed

7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

The Witnesses Resurrected

11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.
.
.
hiding
Anonymous Coward (OP)
User ID: 18114581
Australia
08/14/2012 04:36 PM
Report Abusive Post
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Why did God put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden?

What purpose did it serve?

Did God Himself need the knowledge of good and evil?

Did He have to take a piece of the magical fruit now and again to refresh His memory?

We can assume that He did not. Did any of the animals of the Garden need the Tree? We can assume not.

What kind of tree was this?

An apple tree, an orange tree, a banana tree?

The bible does not tell us.

How could a tree, an organism of wood and sap, contain the knowledge of good and evil? What capacity did it have for storing such knowledge, and how was that knowledge passed on by eating and digesting it?

Allow yourself to think about that... Why, therefore, among all the useful and decorative trees in the Garden of Eden, did God deliberately include this tree, the tree that carries the warning: "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"?

Did He put it in the Garden as a temptation to tempt Adam and Eve? The bible says very clearly that cannot be the case. God does not tempt: "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth He any man." (James 1:13)

Therefore, we have a tree of a nature that we cannot comprehend, whose fruit is so sinful to consume that it would result in the immediate and eternal damnation of humankind, placed in a location so precarious as to make that outcome an inevitability, all apparently for no purpose whatever.

Imagine a caring, loving parent leaving a loaded pistol in the playroom of a five year old child, knowing full well what the result will be, and watching from a crack in the door as the child blows his brains out.

Did God know Eve would eat the fruit? Of course He did! We are told by the bible that God knows all things from the Beginning unto the End. Did He not know Eve would give it to Adam? Of course He did.

Did He not know that the serpent would tempt Eve? He did, if we are to accept the bible. Therefore, did Eve have any free will in the matter?

Could she have acted in a manner other than God had foreseen for her? Of course not! How could she? How was the serpent able to speak?

Did it give itself this remarkable ability? How does the mouth of a snake, with no lips or proper teeth, and no articulate tongue, form human words? How did the tiny brain of a snake become wise and subtle? Who made it so? Who was responsible for putting the principle actors-- Adam, Eve, the serpent and the Tree-- all together in the Garden of Eden? God, of course.

The inescapable conclusion? That He put all the pieces on the game board, and enacted His own little drama, resulting in the deliberate, eternal damnation of Humankind. In the words of Ingersoll: could a devil have done worse?

We are told that at their creation, Adam and Eve, like small children, did not posses the knowledge of good and evil, of right from wrong.

I wonder why God wanted to withhold this from them...

Should Adam and Eve therefore be held responsible for committing an action prior to them having the Knowledge of Good and Evil? I would not think so.

They disobeyed an instruction before they knew it was wrong to disobey. Was this the Ultimate Sin, for which every human being ever born was to pay with their eternal soul?

Was that the worse thing that Adam and Eve could have done? They could have beaten and slaughtered each other, and destroyed their paradise. But they did not do anything so cruel or barbaric.

They ate a piece of fruit, contrary to the will of an arbitrary god. People disobey God's commands millions of times every day all over the earth-- from lying and stealing to murder and worshipping other gods... why then was Adam and Eve's simple disobedience to carry such a heavy price? It would have been fair of God to give Eve this same warning...but He did not.

He uttered it before He pulled out Adam's rib and made a whole woman. (Why did He not use the dirt again, I wonder?) We have no record of God or Adam telling Eve of this dreadful warning, so why should she be held accountable?

Would you treat your own children that way? Would you condemn them to eternal torture, infinite revenge, never ending intense pain with no chance of pardon, for taking a cookie out of the cookie jar before dinner, after you had told them not to?

And would you condemn your children's children, and all generations that will come after? What sort of justice is this? No natural person can condone this. All that the Christians can say is that we cannot understand God's method of justice. That is all they can say.

Why should I be held responsible for Eve's decision to eat the fruit? Why should you?

If your distant ancestor, four hundred years ago, killed a man in an act of cruel and pointless savagery, should you be handed a life sentence in prison for it?

God Himself states in the bible that He does not punish the children for the sins of their fathers.

Are we to conclude by this that we have no sin upon us as the result of our births? No stain of eternal depravity upon us? Might not the notion of Original Sin be the fabrication of the Church, in order that they might further their careers and ensure their survival?

For if one does not need to be saved, one does not need priests and preachers. Christians tells us that without their religion, all of us are doomed without hope.

They try to convince us of the dilemma they have created for us, then try to convince us that they alone have the remedy. Christianity cuts you and then tries to sell you a Band-Aid.

Because of the Fall of Man, we are told that it is not enough that we are good and caring people, not enough that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us, not enough that we forgive those who trespass against us. We must be baptized-- have our heads wet by a priest-- a meaningless gesture, and proclaim that we accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior.

We must believe the unbelievable. A Hindu, who happens to be more charitable and humane than the best Christian, is nonetheless consigned to eternal damnation, just as the kind and gentle native of some tropical island who never heard of Jesus and his cross.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18114581


Imagine a caring, loving parent leaving a loaded pistol in the playroom of a five year old child,.....................
.
.
Adam and Eve were Adults not children,so forget that statment!!!.........................
.
Did it give itself this remarkable ability? How does the mouth of a snake, with no lips or proper teeth, and no articulate tongue, form human words? How did the tiny brain of a snake become wise and subtle?..........
.
The Garden of Eden was completely different to our reality,maybe the snake could talk telepathic,remember it was a pure place and i`m sure telepathicy was just normal,being at one with every thing.
.
.
.
.
Would you treat your own children that way? Would you condemn them to eternal torture, infinite revenge, never ending intense pain with no chance of pardon, for taking a cookie out of the cookie jar before dinner, after you had told them not to?.............cookie and This ONE rule to staying in the Garden of Eden............
.
.
.
.
.
We must believe the unbelievable. A Hindu, who happens to be more charitable and humane than the best Christian, is nonetheless consigned to eternal damnation, just as the kind and gentle native of some tropical island who never heard of Jesus and his cross????????????????????????????????
.
Good question and the answer is simple before the end of this planet Earth(2nd peter chapter3=God’s Promise Is Not Slack
3 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us,[a] the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The Day of the Lord

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[c] 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Be Steadfast

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him,).....but b4 the earth ends 2 witnesses will come apon our planet and they will meet these jungle people u mention in your last paragraph,to read about these 2 Witnesses go to Revelation chapter11,verse3-14 = 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

The Witnesses Killed

7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

The Witnesses Resurrected

11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.
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hiding
 Quoting: paul 21961138


Adam and eve might have been adults but they were totally INNOCENT adults..they didnt even KNOW what sin or evil WAS..like a two year old..HOW could they have had ANY idea what good and evil were TO MAKE a clear cut CHOICE between the two..UNTIL they had eaten from the tree that OPENED their eyes TO those two states in the first place?
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Okay. Let's see if we have this straight.

Possible outcomes of the Great Commission, depending on what you believe

1) I can make a difference–my witness is essential.

This is the stand most Christians take, though fortunately, most are not very serious about it, or they’d be anxiety-ridden basket cases all the time. Unless they happen to be born salespeople (in which case they should also be getting rich on Amway), most people do not like approaching strangers at bus stops and sharing the plan of salvation, every chance they get. And since Christians do not fulfill this responsibility perfectly, thankfully for people waiting at bus stops, souls that are not reached go to hell, because God’s marketing team fell apart.

2) I can’t really make a difference–my witness is not essential.

Although most Christians will not admit to this, this is how most of them live. When thrust into an impossible situation, this is the easiest way to cope. Of course this makes the Great Commission a rather empty edict, about as useful as bailing water off the Titanic.

3) People who never hear the Gospel go to hell.

If you believe this, then there is no reason to believe that God is fair.

4) People who never hear the Gospel go to heaven.

Then sharing the Gospel message would be the worst thing you could do to them (see the parable about the sower and the seeds, Matthew 13:1-9), for you have just guaranteed that a large percentage of these heretofore innocents are going to hell.

5) I don’t know what happens to people who never hear the Gospel. God will take care of them.

Then should you really meddle?

6) Why are we even discussing this?

Amen. Please write your local televangelist or evangelical pastor, and tell him or her that the money you send them could be much better used feeding the poor, housing the homeless, or filling potholes.

Still, the Great Commission is of great importance to Christians, their raison d’être. But the fact remains that far more people will reject the Gospel message than will accept it. So despite their best efforts, and the fervent wish of the Lord, the devil still manages to steal far more souls than God, in all His power, can save.

If we use the analogy that God is the Shepherd and humanity His sheep, then how good a shepherd is He? Let's say you hire a shepherd to take your flock out for the day.

The job of the shepherd is to ensure the safety of the sheep, and to see that wolves don't eat any of them.

But in the evening, when this shepherd returns with your flock, you find that most of your sheep have been eaten, and only a few make it back. How good a job would you say the shepherd did? Wouldn't you fire such a shepherd on the spot for incompetence?

Yet Christians tell us that God is a shepherd like this. Despite His Great Commission to save souls, most will be lost. Christians say that God will triumph and defeat the devil.

What sort of triumph is this? And who defeated who?

If God's will is that none should perish, and if He even gave His own son’s life to accomplish this, then He will have failed most miserably. For if God's aim is to save, and Satan's to corrupt, then despite the Great Commission and all His good intentions, God will have lost the game.

Okay. Let's say we ignore all this, and still believe that Christians should spread the Gospel message so people will get saved.

Then what should be the most important thing for a Christian? Well, to save souls. This should outweigh politics, world hunger, sex, drugs, rock and roll, and even morality, for what temporary earthly situation is more important than the eternal destiny of a soul?

If a little starvation can cause a community to get on its knees and pray to God for salvation, then why not? If a corrupt dictator oppresses his people enough that they turn to Christianity for release, all the better.

But again, Christians themselves don't quite believe this. Most of the noise you hear from Christian camps these days are cries for a return to traditional family values, stopping homosexualism, and getting rid of the Democrats. Not so much is said about getting saved.

Things like anti-gay rallies bring Christians out in droves. Yet only occasionally do you see the lonely person handing out tracts on the street corner.

But if salvation really mattered, then why is all this attention, or any, for that matter, given to these other issues? Who cares if someone leads a gay lifestyle? If he does not believe in Jesus, he will go to Hell no matter if he sleeps with men or women.

Who cares if teens have sex?

If they all became celibate, they'd still burn in hell without a saving knowledge of Christ.

It's a classic case of fiddling while Rome burns.

The only thing that should matter to Christians, is that thousands die every day and go to hell.

Why try to feed the hungry? Better an empty belly on its way to heaven, than a full one headed for hell.

Better the believing prostitute than the unbelieving, faithful wife.

And besides, if people aren't going to become Christians anyway, why deny them some fun before they die?

Few things bring out Christians more than antiabortion rallies.

Yet if you ask any of these angry, shouting, banner-toting people, they will tell you that the souls of all those millions of poor aborted babies are now with God in heaven.

In that case, Christians should thank abortion doctors, not condemn them, for they are the only truly successful evangelists.

Where else will you get a 100% salvation rate?

If these babies had not been aborted, most of them would have grown up and not become Christians, thus ending up in Hell.

Getting aborted was the only thing that ensured the salvation of their souls.

So what if they missed out on life–what's 80 or 90 years lost now, compared to billions gained later?

Who would not trade a brief life here on earth to avoid an eternity of agony in the next?

I realize this is getting absurd, but that’s the point.

The Great Commission and its implications are absurd.
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Evil Liars lying about God go to Hell - Unless They Change Their Minds and Believe In God's Goodness @ Provision

EVERYONE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT WHO BELIEVED IN THE CREATOR AND HIS PROMISE OF A SAVIOR WAS ACCEPTED AND DID WELL.

Gen.4:6-7 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

You're not doing well, O.P.

Sin is at your door

You have let that sin rule over you, instead of conquering it. Gen.4:7

You're still breathing, meaning God's still giving you a chance.

Just like he did for Cain by giving him a mark to preserve his life so no one would kill him. 4:15

You are Estranged from God just like Cain. 4:16


YOU HAVE A CHOICE, DON'T BE LIKE CAIN, LIVING YOUR WHOLE LIFE REJECTING AND DIE CONDEMNED TO HELL LIKE CAIN. Jude 1:11.

DO WELL,LIKE THE OLD TESTAMENT BELIEVERS IN GOD BY BELIEVING IN GOD'S LOVING, MERCIFUL PROVISION OF A ONCE FUTURE/NOW FULLFILLED SAVIOR
.


smile_hearsmile_hearsmile_hearsmile_hear


"And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev.22:17b

smile_hearsmile_hearsmile_hearsmile_hear
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Most Christians who believe in the doctrine of never-ending punishments base this on several passages in the New Testament that seem to speak of punishment in terms of “eternity.”

Some of these passages include 2 Thes. 1:9, Rev. 14:11, and Rev. 20:10-15.

However, the conclusion that God will torment most men forever is primarily based on a faulty understanding of the meaning of the Greek words “aion” and “aionios.”

Unfortunately, most of our English Bibles do not accurately translate these words, and as a result, the doctrine of “eternal” hell continues to thrive in the midst of the organized church. Let’s take a look at both of these words and see how most Christians have misapplied them.

“Aion”
The Greek noun “aion” literally means “an age” or “an indeterminate period of time.” Hebrews 1:2 tells us that “God made the ages,” and the Apostle Paul tells us that there was a state of existence BEFORE the ages (1 Cor. 2:7) and that the ages will END. (1 Cor. 10:11) Clearly, if something begins and ends, it cannot be unending.

Strong’s Concordance gives this definition for the word “aion:”

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity 2) the worlds, universe 3) period of time, age.

According to Strong, this little four-letter Greek word can mean both “eternity” and “a period of time.” Huh? How can something mean both a period of time which clearly has a beginning and ending AND a state of existence that has neither beginning nor end?

The simple answer is it can’t!

The Greek language is not like English.

It is much more precise which is why I’m sure God chose this as the language of the New Testament.

While some English words can carry two different meanings totally separate from context, the Greek language is not so. While there can be different usages for a Greek word based on context, there is no one Greek word, that I am aware of, that can have two totally opposite meanings.

Let’s look at one of the verses that is commonly used to prove the doctrine of never-ending punishment.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:11)



The Greek word translated “forever and ever” is the word “aion” (used twice). There are three problems with the way the King James translates this verse.

First, if something is “for ever,” why bother adding another “ever?” Are we to think that there is more than one “for ever” or that we have to have an extra “ever” added so we get the point?

Secondly, both uses of the word “aion” are in the plural form.

The problem with this should be obvious to anyone who is honest.

Are we to somehow think that there is more than one (plural) eternity?

No theologian teaches that and yet there is no doubt that the plural form of “aion” is used in this verse.

If the King James translators looked at the tense a bit more carefully, they would have written the above phrase to read “for evers and evers.”

This, of course, makes absolutely no sense. However, if we properly interpret “aion” to mean “an indeterminate period of time,” then the verse makes perfect sense.

Here is how it should be translated:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up unto ages of ages; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:11)



This interpretation helps us understand that “an age” can be a very long time – the length of which is known only to God. However, “a very long time” is NOT “forever and ever.”

Thirdly, it’s very interesting to note that those who are tormented will have no rest DAY or NIGHT.

If this is an eternal state of punishment, why are the terms “day” and “night” used?

Day and night were created by God as recorded in the Genesis account.

(Eternity is not created – it has always existed).

These are terms that designate time, not eternity, and since eternity contains no “day” or “night,”

I think it is clear that the word “aion” in Rev. 14:11 cannot mean eternal.

The punishment (torment) will continue as long as it takes for God to accomplish His purpose—no more, no less. It does not go on “forever and ever” as boasted by theologians, but it lasts only for the ages.
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
“Aionios”


The adjective “aionios” comes from the noun “aion” and means “age-abiding” or “age-lasting.” It is a common rule of language that an adjective can have no more force than the noun from which it is derived.

For example, if I say that my grandfather is my elder, I mean to say that he is older than myself, and therefore, is to be respected. However, if I change this noun to its adjective form, this, in no way, changes the meaning of the word. By using the word elderly, I am still saying that my grandfather is old.

It’s the same meaning—all that has changed is the form. The same is true with “aionios.” If “aion” (the noun) means “an indeterminate period of time” then it goes to follow that “aionios” (the adjective) will also have the same basic meaning.

This adjective is never found until the writings of Plato (427 BC - 347 BC) who only used the word five times, and while he did use this word in the context of eternity, he never used it by itself to mean such. Why? Because the word, in and of itself does not mean “eternity.”

Whenever he wanted to convey the idea of eternity, he always combined a stronger forced word with it (such as “aidios”), but not once did he ever use “aionios” by itself to mean “endless.”

However, both Plato and Aristotle did use the word “aionios” by itself to mean temporary. Here is an excerpt by J. W. Hanson from his book Bible Threatenings Explained:

Plato, referrring to certain souls in Hades, describes them as being in “aionian” intoxication.

But that he does not use the word in the sense of endless is evident from the Phaedon, where he says, “It is a very ancient opinion that souls quitting the world, repair to the infernal reigions, and return after that, to live in this world.”

After the “aionian” intoxication is over, they return to earth, which demonstrates that the word was not used by him as meaning endless.

Aristotle uses the word in the same sense. He says of the earth, “All these things seem to be done for her good, in order to maintain safety during her aionos,” duration, or life.

And still more to the purpose is this quotation concerning God's existence: "Life and 'an aion continuous and eternal, zoe kai aion sunekes kai aidios.'" Here the word aidios, (eternal) is employed to qualify aion and impart to it what it had not of itself, the sense of eternal.

So we can see from classic Greek usage that the word “aionios” meant a temporal period of time and was not used to convey the idea of eternity.

But does the Bible use the same grammatical rules as the ancient Greeks did?

Titus 1:2 is a good place to answer that. It is also a good example of how much difficulty the King James translators had in translating this word.
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Here is the verse as found in our King James Bibles:



In hope of eternal (aionios) life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world (aionios) began;



The words “eternal” and “world” are both the exact same Greek word—“aionios.”

So the natural question is why didn't the King James translators translate it the same in both cases? Simply because it wouldn’t make any sense! Let's try it.



In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the eternity began.



What does “before the eternity” mean? We know now, just what the translators knew back then, that is, that there is no such thing as “before eternity,” so in order to make the verse work, they had to change the meaning of the word to mean something that was temporal, and in this case they used the word “world.”

There is a word in the Greek language for “world” and it is the noun “kosmos,” but that is not the word that Paul (under the inspiration of God’s Spirit) chose to use.

Clearly, we cannot translate the second “aionios” to mean “eternal” because to do so, we would have to admit that there was something BEFORE the eternity. So in this one little verse, we have clearly shown that you cannot always translate “aionios” to mean “eternal,” and this being the case, what does this do to the idea of “eternal (aionios) punishment?”



We have dealt a crushing blow to the idea that “aionios” must always be translated “eternal,” and in doing so, we have opened the door to the possibility that God’s punishment does not continue endlessly, but lasts only for the ages.

In this short essay, we will not discuss the specific passages that address God’s universal salvation, but are simply showing the possibility that God’s punishment does not last forever as most Christians teach. (See the article titled, "The Work of the Cross").



NOTE: There are two other instances in the New Testament where the King James version translates “aionios” to mean world. (Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9)



The Argument

Neither the noun (“aion”) nor the adjective (“aionios”) etymologically mean “eternal” and yet theologians and translators have improperly defined both of these words to support the idea that God will punish men “forever and ever.”

To prove this, proponents of “eternal” punishment will find try to find examples in the New Testament where “aionios” is used with either God or the life He gives through Jesus Christ.

They tell us that if “aionios” is used to speak of God (who is obviously eternal), then this proves that “aionios” should also mean eternal when used in conjunction with punishment. The “golden” text that Christians use to prove that “aionios” must mean “eternal” is found in Matt. 25:46.



And these shall go away into everlasting (“aionios”) punishment: but the righteous into life (“aionios”) eternal. (KJV)



Their argument goes something like this:


If the punishment for the wicked is temporary (“aionian”), then the life for the righteous must also be temporary (“aionian”).

In other words, you are saying that God (and the life He imparts) is not eternal but will only last for the ages; and when the ages are complete, then God (and His life) ceases to be.



Or to quote a staunch proponent of the doctrine of never-ending punishment, Eric Landstrom,



The exact same word “aionion” is used to describe the duration of punishment as well as of the life of the righteous—those who are saved.

The same word describes both conditions.

If it means one thing in the first part of this sentence, then it means the same thing in the second part since they are both in the same context and both are describing time—duration of the states of the unsaved and the saved.

If the punishment is eternal, then so is the life.

Likewise, if, as the universalist says, the punishment is not eternal, then neither is the life.

You can’t pick and choose how the word is applied in this verse to suit your own theology.



For those who use this argument, it may seem like they make a valid point.

Are we really picking and choosing as accused by Mr. Landstrom?

The truth of the matter is that Mr. Landstrom fails to consider two very important scriptural points: one, he does not differentiate between the two states (time and eternity) in which God can and does operate in, and two, he does not distinguish the difference between the nature of God and the nature of man.



As we answer the cynics charge, keep in mind that we have already clearly shown in the New Testament where “aionios” absolutely cannot mean “eternal.”
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
The Answer



As already stated, the meaning of the word “aionios” is “age-lasting,” not “eternal.” Rotherham’s Emphasized version properly translates Matt. 25:46 as follows:



And these shall go away into age-abiding correction: but the righteous into

age-abiding life.

To address Mr. Landstrom’s accusation that we are somehow limiting the life of God by our translation of the word “aionios,” we most confidently declare that God’s life never had a beginning, nor will have an end.

This life can be found nowhere except in God. This life fills both time and eternity.

It existed before the ages (1 Cor. 2:7), and it will continue after the ages (1 Cor. 15:28 ). God is eternal (Rom. 1:20--Gk. word “aidios”), indissoluble (Heb. 7:16), and immortal (1 Tim. 6:16), and therefore, His life is also eternal, indissoluble, and immortal.

Man, on the other hand, is both temporal and mortal. He is not born with this God-life.

The Bible says, “Only God hath immortality.” (1 Tim. 6:16) Man exists wholly in the realm of time (ages).

He has never known anything but the realm of time. He lives and he dies. He is born and goes back to the dust whence he came.

So when God imparts His life, it is imparted to mortal man who is “aionian.”

In other words, man has been given life which pertains to the ages.

This does not mean that the essence of God’s life is somehow temporary (or that God is temporary), it simply means that the life of God is imparted to man who is bound to the ages and who is NOT immortal.

The ancient Egyptian and Greek teaching that says that man has an immortal soul (now embraced by the Church) is not scriptural. The only reason man has any life at all is because God (who is life) chooses to impart it to His creatures.
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
When the Bible speaks of the “aionian God” (1 Tim. 1:17), it does not mean that God is less than eternal. It simply means that He manifests Himself within the framework of time.

That which is seen is temporal; that which is unseen is eternal. When the Bible says that God is “aionian,” it means He is “aionian” in the sense that He can move and manifest Himself in the realm of sight.

When the Bible speaks of the “eternal” God (Rom. 1:20), this means that God transcends all time, and He manifests Himself in that which is unseen.

God is the only One who can exist in both the state of time and timelessness.

Jesus, after His resurrection, possessed the fullness of God’s life allowing Him to manifest Himself in both the “aionian” realm (when He showed Himself to the disciples) and the “eternal” realm (being with the Father).



“Aionian” life is that life which is applicable to the ages (time). “Immortality” is that life which is applicable to the state of timelessness.

Both emanate from God who is indissoluble, unchangeable, immortal, and the One who NEVER dies. Again, it is not “aionian” in that its quality is somehow temporary, but in that it is given to man who is temporary.

Since I am limited in my flesh, I cannot experience anything other than “aionian” life. I cannot move through walls and appear and disappear as Christ did.

When I lay down this mortality, and put on immortality, then I will be able to minister both to God (eternal) and to my brethren who are still limited by temporal time (aionian).

No one who believes in universal reconciliation teaches that God is temporary. This is a twisting of our words that those who oppose the truth of universal reconciliation use to try and discredit the glorious gospel.

While we in no way deny God’s “eternal” nature, we do believe that the nature of man is temporary. If God doesn’t give His life to us, then we would all perish forever going back to the “dust from whence we came.”

As to man’s reward and punishment, man is both rewarded and punished according to the life lived IN THE AGES. If he has done well (while living in the realm of time), he will receive the life of God, which manifests itself in the ages. If he has done badly (while living in the realm of time), he will receive punishment which will manifest itself in the ages.

And when the time of the end shall come and God has become “all in all” (1 Cor. 15:28), all rewards and punishments, which are only applicable during the ages, will cease.
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
To teach that God will punish eternally (that is, outside of time) for deeds committed in a temporal body in temporal time is doing injustice to the Word of God and frankly, is not using a “pattern of sound words.”

It is not JUST (fair) to put man (who did not ask to be born) into a world totally blind to his own sin, with a tempter who seeks to deceive him, who inherits a body of death which constantly opposes God’s law, with many voices in the world saying “this is truth” or “that is truth,” with divisions and strife among the very people (the Church) who are supposed to have the truth, and then give this man maybe twenty, fifty, or seventy years, and burn him in hell for all eternity if he doesn’t make the right “choice.”

People who believe this, and unfortunately it is most Christians, frankly do not understand the depravity of their own sin. They have forgotten that it was GOD WHO SAVED THEM, and they did nothing but simply respond to God’s “dragging” them to Himself. If God had not opened their eyes, they would still be in darkness.

While “aionios” does not (in and of itself) mean “eternal,” the Greek word “aidios,” as used in Romans 1:20, comes about as close to the definition of “eternity” as any Greek word can.

While God is spoken of in terms that describe His eternal state (eternal, indissoluble, and immortal), these words are NEVER used in the scriptures when speaking of man’s future punishment. If God wanted to teach the idea of never-ending punishments, He certainly would have chosen a word with much more force than “aionios.”

Lastly, it will also help us if we understand that God’s purposes are not completed in this current age, but worked out in successive ages. (Eph. 2:7)

The message of God’s saving work through Christ is glorious, and it is not limited to this lifetime as the orthodox church would have us believe.

It is not in God’s plan “to save as many as He can before this life ends” only to throw the rest of His precious creation in the dumper for all eternity.

Jesus did not pray for the world, but for those whom the Father gave Him (the disciples). (John 17)

Those who are Calvinists will twist this prayer of Jesus to say that God only has intentions to save the elect, while the rest are reserved for never-ending punishment, but they make the same critical mistake that most of Christendom does in that they do not see that God’s purposes for mankind do not end with this life.

Everything will be accomplished in GOD’S TIME, not ours.

God’s purpose in this age is to bring a people to Himself (elect) in order to reach the non-elect in the ages to come.

He is calling US in order to show forth His kindness to OTHERS in the ages to come.

Once you see this truth, you will then understand why most people will never come to Christ in this age.

This does not mean God has forsaken the many and given them up to suffer never-ending punishments.

The mercy, love, and compassion of our God will never fail and the Good Shepherd will keep on seeking and saving until each and every last sheep (good and bad) is brought into the fold.



As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
sunspotkiller

User ID: 1332188
United States
08/14/2012 05:06 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Does that story even sound real?

Even if it is then you have the problem of an entire planet built off two people? See the dumb asses who wrote this didn't know shit. Religion is a way to control you through fear. God would never do that. One reason God has nothing to do with religion.
sunspotkiller

When you judge someone else, It doesn't define who they are, It defines who you are. Be love!

“Kind words do not cost much. Yet they accomplish much.”
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17340741
Australia
08/14/2012 05:09 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Does that story even sound real?

Even if it is then you have the problem of an entire planet built off two people? See the dumb asses who wrote this didn't know shit. Religion is a way to control you through fear. God would never do that. One reason God has nothing to do with religion.
 Quoting: sunspotkiller


Exactly.

How can FEAR lead to perfection?

How could a PERFECT being..GOD..use FEAR..and threats of eternal torture or purgatory or agony..ALL traits of darkness...to lead to perfection?

Perfect love CASTS OUT ALL FEAR the bible says..so HOW could GOD..who IS "perfect love" use the VERY thing he is SUPPOSED to CAST OUT..as a means of BRINGING IN..those he wants to lead to perfection?

Thats like washing in MUD and expecting to emerge clean.

When Jesus spoke to that prostitute the pharisees were about to stone to death..he did NOT say "GO and sin no more OR ELSE"....NOR did he condemn her..

Which makes you wonder why the FOLLOWERS of Jesus go out of their way to do and be the OPPOSITE of Jesus when all you hear from them is threats of torture and condemnation?

Its because they follow DARKNESS...because FEAR and DARKNESS..is all that ever comes out of their mouths..and thus..thats ALL that is IN their hearts.

FEAR and LOVE..CANNOT co exist.

Besides all this...

Eternity is a pretty long time for someone to get off on torturing an unrequited love, don't you think?

If a HUMAN stalked and then tortured a woman who rejected him..he would be LOCKED UP and HATED..

But when GOD does the SAME thing to BILLIONS FOREVER..

They honour him and build churches in his name to celebrate.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 17340741
Australia
08/14/2012 05:27 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Evil Liars lying about God go to Hell - Unless They Change Their Minds and Believe In God's Goodness @ Provision

EVERYONE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT WHO BELIEVED IN THE CREATOR AND HIS PROMISE OF A SAVIOR WAS ACCEPTED AND DID WELL.

Gen.4:6-7 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

You're not doing well, O.P.

Sin is at your door

You have let that sin rule over you, instead of conquering it. Gen.4:7

You're still breathing, meaning God's still giving you a chance.

Just like he did for Cain by giving him a mark to preserve his life so no one would kill him. 4:15

You are Estranged from God just like Cain. 4:16


YOU HAVE A CHOICE, DON'T BE LIKE CAIN, LIVING YOUR WHOLE LIFE REJECTING AND DIE CONDEMNED TO HELL LIKE CAIN. Jude 1:11.

DO WELL,LIKE THE OLD TESTAMENT BELIEVERS IN GOD BY BELIEVING IN GOD'S LOVING, MERCIFUL PROVISION OF A ONCE FUTURE/NOW FULLFILLED SAVIOR
.


smile_hearsmile_hearsmile_hearsmile_hear


"And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev.22:17b

smile_hearsmile_hearsmile_hearsmile_hear
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11765896


EVIL LIARS portray God as a mean spiritied sore losing bastard who just HAS to totrure MOST of his creatures forever for daring to be born into a system HE set up and RUNS.
waterman

User ID: 21082139
United States
08/14/2012 05:29 PM

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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Here is an answer
[link to www.youtube.com]
-Heed the warning or endure the mourning
Favor ain't fair
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 16279682
Australia
08/14/2012 05:46 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
If Adam and ever were created UTTERLY IGNORANT of good and evill then HOW COULD they have possibly KNOWN that eating from the tree WAS in fact evil when they had NO idea what evil was UNTIL they ate from the tree?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 16279682
Australia
08/14/2012 05:51 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
I notice a distinct lack of interest in this thread by christians.

But then..THEY hate the truth the MOST.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21927781
Japan
08/14/2012 06:03 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
It is  it not meant to  be taken literally. It is a metaphor for man's loss of instinct. We used to live naturally, like animals. When our brains became late enough to think in terms of Good and Evil, we entered a "fallen" world of pain, moral anguish, and fucking each other over.

Other religions have similar concepts. Many shamanistic societies have myths about a "broken" axis that should unite heaven and earth. Taoism speaks of the ancient masters, whose grasp of the tao was more profound than ours. It's all about the loss of instinct. 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 16279682
Australia
08/14/2012 06:10 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
It is  it not meant to  be taken literally. It is a metaphor for man's loss of instinct. We used to live naturally, like animals. When our brains became late enough to think in terms of Good and Evil, we entered a "fallen" world of pain, moral anguish, and fucking each other over.

Other religions have similar concepts. Many shamanistic societies have myths about a "broken" axis that should unite heaven and earth. Taoism speaks of the ancient masters, whose grasp of the tao was more profound than ours. It's all about the loss of instinct. 
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 21927781


But if evolution was TRUE would not our insticts have IMPROVED and NOT declined?

And if the creation story is true..WHY would god ON PURPOSE set it up so our INSTICTS are DESTROYED?

Does he HATE our insticts or something?
asdfasdffsda
User ID: 21931416
United States
08/14/2012 06:17 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Why did God put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden?


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18114581


You might as well go into a scientific debate as to why jack and jill went up the hill. rofl
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 11765896
United States
08/14/2012 06:23 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
...

GOD WINS..LOVE DIDNT FAIL..and MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT.

AND HIS MERCY ENDURES FOREVER AND EVER.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17002141


Yes, Amen and this is true EVEN WHEN SATAN, THE ANTI-CHRIST, FALSE PROPHET AND THEIR FOLLOWERS ARE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE BEING TORTURED. THEY WON'T REPENT BUT GOD'S MERCY ENDURES FOREVER AND EVER IN ALL OF US WHO DID REPENT AND FOLLOW HIM AND ARE HIS VESSELS OF MERCY.

red_heartluv
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11765896


Remember, God is not an unloving bastard or cunt because he takes vengeance on UNREPENTANT ENEMIES!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 16279682
Australia
08/14/2012 06:25 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
...

GOD WINS..LOVE DIDNT FAIL..and MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT.

AND HIS MERCY ENDURES FOREVER AND EVER.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 17002141


Yes, Amen and this is true EVEN WHEN SATAN, THE ANTI-CHRIST, FALSE PROPHET AND THEIR FOLLOWERS ARE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE BEING TORTURED. THEY WON'T REPENT BUT GOD'S MERCY ENDURES FOREVER AND EVER IN ALL OF US WHO DID REPENT AND FOLLOW HIM AND ARE HIS VESSELS OF MERCY.

red_heartluv
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11765896


Remember, God is not an unloving bastard or cunt because he takes vengeance on UNREPENTANT ENEMIES!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11765896


BUT NOR does he TORTURE his enemies NEEDLESSLY for the SAKE of torturing them.

Whatever he DOES to them is REMEDIAL..NOT stanic cruel and POINTLESS.

His ULTIMATE GOAL..as a GOOD SHEPHERD>.is to BRING THEM HOME..NOT slaughter them.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 16279682
Australia
08/14/2012 07:09 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
No answer eh?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 16279682
Australia
08/14/2012 07:18 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Why did God put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden?


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 18114581


You might as well go into a scientific debate as to why jack and jill went up the hill. rofl
 Quoting: asdfasdffsda 21931416


LOL.

Why DID they go up the hill?

We will never know.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 21920501
United States
08/14/2012 07:22 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
God clothed adam and eve with lamb skin after they lied to Him! Where did the lamb skin come from? The original sin: THEY ATE MEAT. Satan fed them living flesh. Until then they did not know killing! Nobody ever gets this one. Remember they were only to eat the fruit of the trees and plants.

Eating Meat the original sin!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 14328296
Netherlands
08/14/2012 07:23 PM
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Re: Adam and Eve and the snake and an apple..WHY so much trouble?...good questions for christians.
Ask Cain.





GLP