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9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!

 
Thor's Hamster  (OP)

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09/12/2012 04:40 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
 Quoting: Thor's Hamster


This link I just found. Wow. It's my opinion this thread should now be pinned. This is major.
Apollo astronauts couldn't have passed through Van Allen's Belt. Van Allen wore suspenders.
Thor's Hamster  (OP)

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09/12/2012 04:46 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
 Quoting: Thor's Hamster


In one of the listed "links", there's a letter that denies and refute's the claim that they removed a window and installed a balcony from the 91st floor of Tower 1 in the WTC while guests were in residence at World Views, the internationally acclaimed studio program.

Before taking this letter at face value, consider this: Who would do such a thing to trick people after such a horrific event? My worst enemy wouldn't dare do such a thing. Also, as I said, I have the book, and I see the photographs. As they suggest in the letter in one of the links, I will, in fact, have the photographs professionally examined.

Before you decide, you really need to see the book.

I will let you know what the digital professional examiner's verdict is on this is. Should be interesting.
Apollo astronauts couldn't have passed through Van Allen's Belt. Van Allen wore suspenders.
Anonymous Coward
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09/12/2012 04:49 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
don't you think if somebody were trying to make a coverup for the WTC they wouldn't have been stupid enough to publish it?
Thor's Hamster  (OP)

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09/12/2012 04:57 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
don't you think if somebody were trying to make a coverup for the WTC they wouldn't have been stupid enough to publish it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6991341


I hear ya. One would think. Here's why I give it credibility for just the valid reason you have for doubting it...

I've tracked these types of things for more years than I'd care to admit. As odd as it seems, the perpetrators often like to leave "clues"....like the Zodiac Killer's poems, almost taunting investigators, or a murderer leaving a white glove, or Jack the Ripper leaving geometric patterns "etched" into his victims. Whether this is for bragging rights, or for posterity so their involvement won't be forgotten to future generations, is anyone's guess. But numeric symbolism (particularly calendar dates) and "calling cards" are common denominators.
Apollo astronauts couldn't have passed through Van Allen's Belt. Van Allen wore suspenders.
Anonymous Coward
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09/12/2012 05:06 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
from [link to www.gelitin.net]

"Dear Colleagues,

The purpose of this letter is to categorically deny and refute
Gelatin’s (the Austrian art collective) preposterous claim to have
removed a window and installed a balcony from the 91st floor of Tower
1 in the World Trade Center, while guests and in residence at World
Views, LMCC’s internationally acclaimed studio program. No one in his
or her sane mind would believe such an account!

Talk about this action has recently taken on plague proportion in the
sensation driven and rumor hungry art world. Rumors and claims that
are concocted by no one else but Gelatin’s adolescent-like members.
Anyone that is familiar with their work knows very well that these
boys thrive on shock value and attention. They are pranksters in real
life and often aim to introduce an element of doubt and disbelief in
their art; they are in fact masters of deception and their real art
for the program at the World Trade Center has been to fabricate this
action and promulgate it as an urban myth.

That is the genius in this work. They have been successful in
addressing the mythological and iconic dimensions of America, New
York and the Twin Towers and to use the system of the art world, a
system they love to critique as a vehicle for the diffusion of their
commentary. And because they are boys and like to play, their project
pays homage to the many daredevils that have either failed or
succeeded to tame this awesome structure and all that it represents.

Again, I would like to reiterate to whomever is concerned that the
above-mentioned action never took place but was simply a figment of
Gelatin’s and our collective imagination. Any visual material that
Gelatin claims as documentation of their action is digitally
manufactured. I urge professionals to test the authenticity of any
document presented to them when it comes to this particular project.
Thank you for your understanding; I hope that this letter settles
this matter once and for all.

Sincerely,

Moukhtar Kocache
Director of Visual Art & Media"
Thor's Hamster  (OP)

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09/12/2012 06:26 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
from [link to www.gelitin.net]

"Dear Colleagues,

The purpose of this letter is to categorically deny and refute
Gelatin’s (the Austrian art collective) preposterous claim to have
removed a window and installed a balcony from the 91st floor of Tower
1 in the World Trade Center, while guests and in residence at World
Views, LMCC’s internationally acclaimed studio program. No one in his
or her sane mind would believe such an account!

Talk about this action has recently taken on plague proportion in the
sensation driven and rumor hungry art world. Rumors and claims that
are concocted by no one else but Gelatin’s adolescent-like members.
Anyone that is familiar with their work knows very well that these
boys thrive on shock value and attention. They are pranksters in real
life and often aim to introduce an element of doubt and disbelief in
their art; they are in fact masters of deception and their real art
for the program at the World Trade Center has been to fabricate this
action and promulgate it as an urban myth.

That is the genius in this work. They have been successful in
addressing the mythological and iconic dimensions of America, New
York and the Twin Towers and to use the system of the art world, a
system they love to critique as a vehicle for the diffusion of their
commentary. And because they are boys and like to play, their project
pays homage to the many daredevils that have either failed or
succeeded to tame this awesome structure and all that it represents.

Again, I would like to reiterate to whomever is concerned that the
above-mentioned action never took place but was simply a figment of
Gelatin’s and our collective imagination. Any visual material that
Gelatin claims as documentation of their action is digitally
manufactured. I urge professionals to test the authenticity of any
document presented to them when it comes to this particular project.
Thank you for your understanding; I hope that this letter settles
this matter once and for all.

Sincerely,

Moukhtar Kocache
Director of Visual Art & Media"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6991341


Yes, I addressed that in my post, a few above this one. Check it out. I'm not arguing that it's 100% nefarious, but it sure seems like it for all the reasons I mentioned. And I think it would be a mistake to read the "letter", and forget all about Gelatin The B-Thing. I think it's integral to 9/11.
Apollo astronauts couldn't have passed through Van Allen's Belt. Van Allen wore suspenders.
Thor's Hamster  (OP)

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09/12/2012 06:29 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
We shall see what the photographic expert has to say about the photographs in the book. Should be interesting.
Apollo astronauts couldn't have passed through Van Allen's Belt. Van Allen wore suspenders.
Anonymous Coward
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United Kingdom
09/12/2012 07:23 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
funny how the 'art students' never show their faces lol. they must be shy
Thor's Hamster  (OP)

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09/13/2012 05:02 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
funny how the 'art students' never show their faces lol. they must be shy
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5505436


lol ya
Apollo astronauts couldn't have passed through Van Allen's Belt. Van Allen wore suspenders.
KELK

User ID: 1282037
Denmark
09/10/2013 06:44 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
"I want to call your attention to the artist groups (E-TEAM and GELATIN) who were selected to be part of the Lower Manhattan Cultural Council (LMCC) World Views / Studioscape (slow link) programs that allowed them and other artists to work and live in the WTC in the four years leading up to 9/11 on different floors, including 91 and 92 of the North Tower. Additionally, they were given seven day a week construction access to the WTC that allowed them to freely move all sorts of materials in and out of the complex."

[link to www.markdotzler.com]
KELK

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Denmark
09/10/2013 07:18 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
It looks very strange with that massive amount of cardboard boxes?
KELK

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Denmark
09/10/2013 07:49 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
The BB 18 written on the boxes could refer to:

[link to www.edwardssupply.com]

or as suggested in the original link

[link to www.littelfuse.com]
Anonymous Coward
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09/11/2013 11:32 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
bumpbump FOR RIDICULOUS KEY INFORMATION!!!! MUST READ
ashis

User ID: 1490898
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09/11/2013 11:37 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
Gelatin......I am buying this stuff today. Been reading a bout how a tablespoon a couple times a day makes new collagen in the skin.

Almost as good as HGH.

Sorry for hijacking your thread.
Leo
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02/16/2014 10:05 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
bump
 Quoting: Thor's Hamster


bump
 Quoting: Thor's Hamster
Messino422

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06/06/2014 11:03 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
I live in NYC and went to ground zero the day after on 9/12/2001. I can tell you that thermite was definitely used when I saw evidence of it everywhere. The way steel beams were bent like horseshoes etc. They even did analysis on the debris found there and found thermate nano particles.

The planes where hijacked remotely via computers and coordinates entered in so they would hit exactly on target.
When they hit, you can see in the video all of the jet fuel igniting and burning up on contact. There was no jet fuel leaking down the elevator shafts or burning the floors causing the steel to sag and pancake down. That is total bullshit. Those muslim terrorists they showed pictures of who were supposedly on those planes was total bullshit. 3 or 4 of them are actually alive and were bugging out when they saw their identities being plastered all over the world as hijackers. Also gotta love how out of all the explosions and towers collapsing, they find Mohammad Attas passport on the ground below in almost pristine condition.


There was one floor in one of the towers that was re-enforced to hold extra weight for soon to be installed UPS battery backup racks. These racks were delivered and set up but never actually wired and turned on or tested. theory is the thermate or other explosives were smuggled in that way and kept there. The plane directly hit that floor.

The buildings were in dire need of costly repairs because they affixed the aluminum exterior directly to the steel beams. This causes advanced corrosion especially with the salty humid air from the river down there.

There was also the costly removal of asbestos that lined these buildings. When they were built asbestos wasnt banned yet and was used to fireproof them.

During the month of March and April 2001 a friend of mine and me would go to the WTC and eat lunch or dinner next door from the towers on Saturdays or Sundays. Well he wanted to go up to the observation deck one saturday after dinner so we did. we first went to the top floor outside and hung out then went to the floor below where the indoor observation area is. I remember thinking to myself, stay here and enjoy the view for as long as you can, soak it all in because this is the last time you will be able to see this beautiful view ever again.

They had these weird middle eastern guys working there aged in their 20s. They were dressed in like bell hop kind of uniforms and they would guide the tourists and there was an area where they would take pictures of everyone entering the area in front of this painted background. These guys were real dirtbags who havnt showered, they spoke with a hebrew accent they looked like turds dressed in nice clean uniforms. 2 of them would stay in the elevator and operate it, when we were leaving we all crammed into the elevator and as we were going down one of the dudes in the uniform hit the emergency stop button and the lights turned off and the alarm bell rang and the elevator stopped. then he turned it back on and him and his co worker laughed and said you guys got scared didnt you? hahahaha and then all of the tourists with us in the elevator let out this really nervous eerie laugh and My friend turned to me and said yo these guys are out of their fucking minds. there's something shady about them. I always thought that was really weird and wondered who hired them and what were they really up to.

My friend was there on 9/11/01 for a job interview in the morning. The guy interviewing him was running late my friend was killing time taking pics of the WTC with his digicamera that he always carries with him in his bag. He was standing around there waiting there when the planes hit. The jumpers were real, the planes were real commercial boeings. There are many levels of people who were in the know who participated in it, government wise as well as silverstein and the other zionists and only they know the real truth. People like us will never know.

Last Edited by Messino422 on 06/06/2014 11:08 AM
Shirley U. Jest

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11/11/2014 04:23 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
Interesting.
Anonymous Coward
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12/18/2014 01:38 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
I live in NYC and went to ground zero the day after on 9/12/2001. I can tell you that thermite was definitely used when I saw evidence of it everywhere. The way steel beams were bent like horseshoes etc. They even did analysis on the debris found there and found thermate nano particles.

The planes where hijacked remotely via computers and coordinates entered in so they would hit exactly on target.
When they hit, you can see in the video all of the jet fuel igniting and burning up on contact. There was no jet fuel leaking down the elevator shafts or burning the floors causing the steel to sag and pancake down. That is total bullshit. Those muslim terrorists they showed pictures of who were supposedly on those planes was total bullshit. 3 or 4 of them are actually alive and were bugging out when they saw their identities being plastered all over the world as hijackers. Also gotta love how out of all the explosions and towers collapsing, they find Mohammad Attas passport on the ground below in almost pristine condition.


There was one floor in one of the towers that was re-enforced to hold extra weight for soon to be installed UPS battery backup racks. These racks were delivered and set up but never actually wired and turned on or tested. theory is the thermate or other explosives were smuggled in that way and kept there. The plane directly hit that floor.

The buildings were in dire need of costly repairs because they affixed the aluminum exterior directly to the steel beams. This causes advanced corrosion especially with the salty humid air from the river down there.

There was also the costly removal of asbestos that lined these buildings. When they were built asbestos wasnt banned yet and was used to fireproof them.

During the month of March and April 2001 a friend of mine and me would go to the WTC and eat lunch or dinner next door from the towers on Saturdays or Sundays. Well he wanted to go up to the observation deck one saturday after dinner so we did. we first went to the top floor outside and hung out then went to the floor below where the indoor observation area is. I remember thinking to myself, stay here and enjoy the view for as long as you can, soak it all in because this is the last time you will be able to see this beautiful view ever again.

They had these weird middle eastern guys working there aged in their 20s. They were dressed in like bell hop kind of uniforms and they would guide the tourists and there was an area where they would take pictures of everyone entering the area in front of this painted background. These guys were real dirtbags who havnt showered, they spoke with a hebrew accent they looked like turds dressed in nice clean uniforms. 2 of them would stay in the elevator and operate it, when we were leaving we all crammed into the elevator and as we were going down one of the dudes in the uniform hit the emergency stop button and the lights turned off and the alarm bell rang and the elevator stopped. then he turned it back on and him and his co worker laughed and said you guys got scared didnt you? hahahaha and then all of the tourists with us in the elevator let out this really nervous eerie laugh and My friend turned to me and said yo these guys are out of their fucking minds. there's something shady about them. I always thought that was really weird and wondered who hired them and what were they really up to.

My friend was there on 9/11/01 for a job interview in the morning. The guy interviewing him was running late my friend was killing time taking pics of the WTC with his digicamera that he always carries with him in his bag. He was standing around there waiting there when the planes hit. The jumpers were real, the planes were real commercial boeings. There are many levels of people who were in the know who participated in it, government wise as well as silverstein and the other zionists and only they know the real truth. People like us will never know.
 Quoting: Messino422


Question for you Messino....while at ground zero..did you see ANY evidence of the normal debris that should have been everywhere from inside the towers...i.e. wiring, duct work, plumbing, office items...chairs, desks, file cabinets, etc. etc. ? This should have been everywhere! Also, add up the 47 core steel columns of both buildings and it comes to almost 21 MILES of steel columns at ground zero. Any indication of all that steel....and that is JUST from the core columns.... That pile should have been massive! If you believe the official story, you can't compare it to a normal building implosion, since they say it simply collapsed, and when they implode a normal building, all the internals of the building are removed first, and then detonated. Can't compare the two.
Shirley U. Jest

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12/21/2014 10:39 PM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
Sayanim
Shirley U. Jest

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12/21/2014 10:43 PM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
I live in NYC and went to ground zero the day after on 9/12/2001. I can tell you that thermite was definitely used when I saw evidence of it everywhere. The way steel beams were bent like horseshoes etc. They even did analysis on the debris found there and found thermate nano particles.

The planes where hijacked remotely via computers and coordinates entered in so they would hit exactly on target.
When they hit, you can see in the video all of the jet fuel igniting and burning up on contact. There was no jet fuel leaking down the elevator shafts or burning the floors causing the steel to sag and pancake down. That is total bullshit. Those muslim terrorists they showed pictures of who were supposedly on those planes was total bullshit. 3 or 4 of them are actually alive and were bugging out when they saw their identities being plastered all over the world as hijackers. Also gotta love how out of all the explosions and towers collapsing, they find Mohammad Attas passport on the ground below in almost pristine condition.


There was one floor in one of the towers that was re-enforced to hold extra weight for soon to be installed UPS battery backup racks. These racks were delivered and set up but never actually wired and turned on or tested. theory is the thermate or other explosives were smuggled in that way and kept there. The plane directly hit that floor.

The buildings were in dire need of costly repairs because they affixed the aluminum exterior directly to the steel beams. This causes advanced corrosion especially with the salty humid air from the river down there.

There was also the costly removal of asbestos that lined these buildings. When they were built asbestos wasnt banned yet and was used to fireproof them.

During the month of March and April 2001 a friend of mine and me would go to the WTC and eat lunch or dinner next door from the towers on Saturdays or Sundays. Well he wanted to go up to the observation deck one saturday after dinner so we did. we first went to the top floor outside and hung out then went to the floor below where the indoor observation area is. I remember thinking to myself, stay here and enjoy the view for as long as you can, soak it all in because this is the last time you will be able to see this beautiful view ever again.

They had these weird middle eastern guys working there aged in their 20s. They were dressed in like bell hop kind of uniforms and they would guide the tourists and there was an area where they would take pictures of everyone entering the area in front of this painted background. These guys were real dirtbags who havnt showered, they spoke with a hebrew accent they looked like turds dressed in nice clean uniforms. 2 of them would stay in the elevator and operate it, when we were leaving we all crammed into the elevator and as we were going down one of the dudes in the uniform hit the emergency stop button and the lights turned off and the alarm bell rang and the elevator stopped. then he turned it back on and him and his co worker laughed and said you guys got scared didnt you? hahahaha and then all of the tourists with us in the elevator let out this really nervous eerie laugh and My friend turned to me and said yo these guys are out of their fucking minds. there's something shady about them. I always thought that was really weird and wondered who hired them and what were they really up to.

My friend was there on 9/11/01 for a job interview in the morning. The guy interviewing him was running late my friend was killing time taking pics of the WTC with his digicamera that he always carries with him in his bag. He was standing around there waiting there when the planes hit. The jumpers were real, the planes were real commercial boeings. There are many levels of people who were in the know who participated in it, government wise as well as silverstein and the other zionists and only they know the real truth. People like us will never know.
 Quoting: Messino422

Well said. I can verify that what you say is true (except Mohammed Atta's passport being found. It was Satam al Saqami's passport that was found a few blocks from Ground Zero. Equally implausible).

Last Edited by Mark Spitz, Phelps Swallows on 12/21/2014 10:45 PM
Anonymous Coward
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09/13/2015 12:21 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
Watch the video interview with Rebekah Roth. 31:25 is when she starts talking about the Israeli art students on the 91st floor of the WTC North Tower (sound familiar? What else happened there, say, on, oh i don't know...Sept 11, 2001?).

Thread: 9-11 researcher par excellence uncovers new evidence
scapegoat.

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09/13/2015 12:41 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
Idol1
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09/13/2015 12:54 AM
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bump smoking1
Anonymous Coward
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09/21/2015 05:14 AM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
from [link to www.gelitin.net]

"Dear Colleagues,

The purpose of this letter is to categorically deny and refute
Gelatin’s (the Austrian art collective) preposterous claim to have
removed a window and installed a balcony from the 91st floor of Tower
1 in the World Trade Center, while guests and in residence at World
Views, LMCC’s internationally acclaimed studio program. No one in his
or her sane mind would believe such an account!

Talk about this action has recently taken on plague proportion in the
sensation driven and rumor hungry art world. Rumors and claims that
are concocted by no one else but Gelatin’s adolescent-like members.
Anyone that is familiar with their work knows very well that these
boys thrive on shock value and attention. They are pranksters in real
life and often aim to introduce an element of doubt and disbelief in
their art; they are in fact masters of deception and their real art
for the program at the World Trade Center has been to fabricate this
action and promulgate it as an urban myth.

That is the genius in this work. They have been successful in
addressing the mythological and iconic dimensions of America, New
York and the Twin Towers and to use the system of the art world, a
system they love to critique as a vehicle for the diffusion of their
commentary. And because they are boys and like to play, their project
pays homage to the many daredevils that have either failed or
succeeded to tame this awesome structure and all that it represents.

Again, I would like to reiterate to whomever is concerned that the
above-mentioned action never took place but was simply a figment of
Gelatin’s and our collective imagination. Any visual material that
Gelatin claims as documentation of their action is digitally
manufactured. I urge professionals to test the authenticity of any
document presented to them when it comes to this particular project.
Thank you for your understanding; I hope that this letter settles
this matter once and for all.

Sincerely with love & kisses,

Hernan Serfaty
Lower Manhattan Cultural Collective

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6991341


Fixed it for ya.
UseLessRepEATER
Those who know the least obey the best: G.F.

User ID: 70360434
United States
09/21/2015 05:16 AM

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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
See my thread for more idiocy and shillery OP
Real Eyes, Realize, Real Lies.....


Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
~H. L. Mencken~

We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
~Plato~

When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations,
the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic.
~Dresden James~
TheHolyCrow
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11/15/2015 10:01 PM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
funny how the 'art students' never show their faces lol. they must be shy
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 5505436


Rebekah Roth has a movie clip embedded in one of her recent interviews with SGT REPORT, and several of the actors/artists have clearly visible faces. For those who don't know her, she was an airline employee for 30 years and has written 2 books, "Methodical Illusions" and "Methodical Deceptions". Check out the movie clip and let's see if we can't get these people identified. Hopefully, they won't be bumped off before we can ask them a few questions. And, it is interesting to note, that R.R. Claims that the boxes photographed with the "artists" contain lettering on them that identify the contents as being switches that can be used for explosive demolitions of buildings, produced by an Israeli company, if I am not mistaken. This is BIG NEWS folks !!!!!
Anonymous Coward
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02/23/2016 11:46 PM
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
wow they stilled pissed about the crusades where

i hacked up J-Town

whoops sorry :)
Anonymous Coward
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03/01/2016 12:19 PM
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Bump

The rabbit hole has many twists and turns but they all lead back to one common group...
TruthNow88
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03/01/2016 12:22 PM
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Bump

The rabbit hole has many twists and turns but they all lead back to one common group...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39903149


I did a more recent and much more detailed thread on this topic in case your interested in learning more.

[link to www.godlikeproductions.com]
Anonymous Coward
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Re: 9/11 Smoking Gun -- Gelatin: The B-Thing. ***MUST READ***!!!!!!
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