Godlike Productions - Discussion Forum
Users Online Now: 2,150 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 821,390
Pageviews Today: 1,356,863Threads Today: 557Posts Today: 9,467
01:50 PM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 60893892
United States
07/29/2014 10:22 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
i read that there is a technique for young people who seem to have the brain of a socio/pscycho path.

they must be immersed in a school in which there is a directed, consistent, and increasing reward system for good behavior.

it has been shown that punishment does nothing to change one of these people

but, they are seeing changes in the brain for rewards

you could try it at home

catch him being good.

rewards can be candy bars, working up to things like video games etc.
 Quoting: queenbee 60825729


This works for people with a mental illness, or an ADHD kid. Psychopathy is not a true mental illness, it is an inherent personality disorder or a huge VOID. Look in the eyes, you can even see it.

Look, if he is a sociopath or a psychopath there is NOTHING you can do to TREAT it. It is inherent in them. Same thing as a pedophile. All the therapy and crayons in the world will not help, and if he's threatening violence you can bet there is nothing but void inside. This is not an anger issue, this is a personality issue that absolutely does not respond to treatment.

Containment, yes.

And, they are very adept at reading people and adjusting their interactions and responses to hide and make you not suspect at just the right times. Can be very charming one minute and destructive the next. The PREY on those they perceive as weak. Devoid of compassion or morality-only doing what is advantageous to them. You cannot fix that, you cannot treat that, you will not be successful.

Really, it sounds like you are dealing with a bad seed and their are alot more out there walking around than people realize.
 Quoting: Oh Hai


Are you describing modern corporations? I think you are describing modern coroorations...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 60893892
United States
07/29/2014 10:23 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
It goes much beyond that...he's incredibly manipulative, goes out of his way to disrupt our lives, is a pathological liar...lies even about things that are irrelivent <sp>. And just yesterday had found out he thinks of harming or killing.
 Quoting: Sireenie


This sort of puts a different slant on things. "Thoughts" sometimes become actions. In my state you can report cases like this, and they will not disclose who reported it. Of course, he would probably lie to the investigators, so it would depend on how convincing he was, and how perceptive they are.
 Quoting: AlphaB


There aint much worse than armchair thought police.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1432559
United States
07/29/2014 10:24 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
It goes much beyond that...he's incredibly manipulative, goes out of his way to disrupt our lives, is a pathological liar...lies even about things that are irrelivent <sp>. And just yesterday had found out he thinks of harming or killing.
 Quoting: Sireenie


How is that lovable??
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 46181201
United States
07/29/2014 10:27 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
18 year old step son,....bad bad bad....

in doing my research, I am discovering that there is very little you can do with a soul that has no conscience.


Now, how do I talk his father into dealing with this so that the rest of his family are protected?
 Quoting: Sireenie


He is a human alien hybrid. The only thing u can do is recognize nothing can b done but stay away from them. Draw lines he can't b anywhere around u or the rest of your family.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 46181201


Elaborate on human-alien hybrid and sociopathy please.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2221688


Their have been alien abductions for along time now. They are infiltrating family's . The old divid and concur.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 23764026
United States
07/29/2014 10:28 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
Is he a sociopath or a psychopath. There is a difference.

If he's a sociopath you need to give him the tools to recognize the benefits of emotional bonds in a logical way.

Example: As a family we are allies. With this, we look out for one another and try to help one another in life. This is a huge benefit, and as such we treat one another with respect and love.

Also, explaining logically cause and effect of actions. Likely, his emotional state is different, but you as a parent need to figure out how he displays emotions, and help him understand other's emotions.

If he is a true sociopath, he needs to create parameters for interactions in society like Sheldon in Big Bang theory.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23764026


Yes yes yes!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 2221688


Most of my family operate this way. We do love one another, but we also have a family code of honor based on logic.

You could say most in my family have sociopathic tendencies, but we also have very tight bonds to one another.
Oden
User ID: 4264131
United States
07/29/2014 10:31 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
Watch Sam Vaknin. The truth shall set you free!
AlphaB

User ID: 60900244
United States
07/29/2014 10:35 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
It goes much beyond that...he's incredibly manipulative, goes out of his way to disrupt our lives, is a pathological liar...lies even about things that are irrelivent <sp>. And just yesterday had found out he thinks of harming or killing.
 Quoting: Sireenie


This sort of puts a different slant on things. "Thoughts" sometimes become actions. In my state you can report cases like this, and they will not disclose who reported it. Of course, he would probably lie to the investigators, so it would depend on how convincing he was, and how perceptive they are.
 Quoting: AlphaB


There aint much worse than armchair thought police.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60893892


Good point. I'd guess that a lot of people (maybe especially teens) have "thoughts" like that, and most of the time it doesn't really mean a whole lot. However, if he's really a sociopath, he could be a danger to himself or others. Nobody except those in this situation can really figure out what to do.
Overcomer777

User ID: 60852138
Ireland
07/29/2014 10:35 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!

OP, I'm sorry about your situation. does he live in your house? maybe you can encourage him to move out.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 59432034


Yes he does...he starts his Senior year of HS so he kinda has to stay.

I don't judge, I assess a conclusion based of the facts and evidence presented.

I love the kid to death....but he is most definitely showing ALL the signs of a sociopath/psychopath.

If you knew the extent of thievery, lying, destruction of personal property you would understand more that this isn't a judgement.
 Quoting: eekers


Sounds like addictive behavior and not all addicts are psychopaths/sociopaths. People's opinions are not real diagnosis.
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Revelation 3:21

The "Lost" Ten Tribes of Israel...Found!
[link to stevenmcollins.com]

Saul/Paul, the false Apostle.
[link to www.judaismvschristianity.com]
[link to www.jesuswordsonly.com]

Isaiah 8:20King James Version (KJV)
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Proof that the Law of Moses/Eternal Holy Covenant that God made with our ancestors and us is still in effect.
[link to www.biblegateway.com (secure)]
[link to www.biblegateway.com (secure)]
[link to www.biblegateway.com (secure)]
[link to www.biblegateway.com (secure)]

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, ABOVE ALL PEOPLE THAT ARE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH. Deuteronomy 7:6

Is the word of God 'racist'? White chosen Israel is SUPERIOR!!! Deal with it.

The promised blessings and curses of Deuteronomy 28
[link to www.biblegateway.com (secure)]

"What is it?" "It's a countdown."

The writings on the wall!!! ;)

:Blood moon777:
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1575442
Canada
07/29/2014 10:40 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
OP, you're stupid! You're dating or married to a man who is the father of child subjected to obvious abuse resulting from the effects of a broken home. Divorcing adults are unbelievably self entered during divorce and almost always badly abuse their children.

Not a sociopath, but an abused child who hasn't been allowed to grow and mature in a healthy manner!!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1575442


Well then he can come live with you since you seem to have all the answers.
 Quoting: Sireenie



What the heck did you think was going to happen. This is text book behaviour and your own attitude is also textbook. You're trying to detach this man from his own child so you can feel secure in your own new relationship with him.
Sir France's Beercan

User ID: 60902525
Austria
07/29/2014 10:41 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
well he wasn't abused. He was however coddled and was never effectively disciplined as a child or pre-teen. So yes, their were mistakes made in his upbringing.
 Quoting: Sireenie


Exactly! Give him a good shoeing. I rest my case your honour!
beeches

User ID: 28167778
United States
07/29/2014 10:51 AM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
There is a way to teach them some empathy. I've seen this happen to a sociopath, it required caring for another life like a dog. Do you have any pets?
 Quoting: nah-T


I would not risk the pets.
Liberalism is totalitarianism with a human face – Thomas Sowell
beeches

User ID: 28167778
United States
07/29/2014 10:54 AM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
i read that there is a technique for young people who seem to have the brain of a socio/pscycho path.

they must be immersed in a school in which there is a directed, consistent, and increasing reward system for good behavior.

it has been shown that punishment does nothing to change one of these people

but, they are seeing changes in the brain for rewards

you could try it at home

catch him being good.

rewards can be candy bars, working up to things like video games etc.
 Quoting: queenbee 60825729


This works for people with a mental illness, or an ADHD kid. Psychopathy is not a true mental illness, it is an inherent personality disorder or a huge VOID. Look in the eyes, you can even see it.

Look, if he is a sociopath or a psychopath there is NOTHING you can do to TREAT it. It is inherent in them. Same thing as a pedophile. All the therapy and crayons in the world will not help, and if he's threatening violence you can bet there is nothing but void inside. This is not an anger issue, this is a personality issue that absolutely does not respond to treatment.

Containment, yes.

And, they are very adept at reading people and adjusting their interactions and responses to hide and make you not suspect at just the right times. Can be very charming one minute and destructive the next. The PREY on those they perceive as weak. Devoid of compassion or morality-only doing what is advantageous to them. You cannot fix that, you cannot treat that, you will not be successful.

Really, it sounds like you are dealing with a bad seed and their are alot more out there walking around than people realize.
 Quoting: Oh Hai


thanks for this post.
Liberalism is totalitarianism with a human face – Thomas Sowell
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 1575442
Canada
07/29/2014 10:55 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
well he wasn't abused. He was however coddled and was never effectively disciplined as a child or pre-teen. So yes, their were mistakes made in his upbringing.
 Quoting: Sireenie


Exactly! Give him a good shoeing. I rest my case your honour!
 Quoting: Sir France's Beercan


Being coddled and improperly disciplined is neglect. Neglect is a form of abuse.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 58967955
Mexico
07/29/2014 10:58 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
Convince him to join the military. Sociopaths rise to the TOP there, he will be right at home.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 60457028
United States
07/29/2014 11:01 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
Try researching RAD…Reactive Attachment Disorder. That could help.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 804275
Canada
07/29/2014 11:05 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
i read that there is a technique for young people who seem to have the brain of a socio/pscycho path.

they must be immersed in a school in which there is a directed, consistent, and increasing reward system for good behavior.

it has been shown that punishment does nothing to change one of these people

but, they are seeing changes in the brain for rewards

you could try it at home

catch him being good.

rewards can be candy bars, working up to things like video games etc.
 Quoting: queenbee 60825729


This works for people with a mental illness, or an ADHD kid. Psychopathy is not a true mental illness, it is an inherent personality disorder or a huge VOID. Look in the eyes, you can even see it.

Look, if he is a sociopath or a psychopath there is NOTHING you can do to TREAT it. It is inherent in them. Same thing as a pedophile. All the therapy and crayons in the world will not help, and if he's threatening violence you can bet there is nothing but void inside. This is not an anger issue, this is a personality issue that absolutely does not respond to treatment.

Containment, yes.

And, they are very adept at reading people and adjusting their interactions and responses to hide and make you not suspect at just the right times. Can be very charming one minute and destructive the next. The PREY on those they perceive as weak. Devoid of compassion or morality-only doing what is advantageous to them. You cannot fix that, you cannot treat that, you will not be successful.

Really, it sounds like you are dealing with a bad seed and their are alot more out there walking around than people realize.
 Quoting: Oh Hai


Did you ever watch Dexter on Showtime? He was a psychopathic serial killer. His policeman step father gave him a code to live by so he wouldn't get caught. His code only allowed him to kill murderers aka other psychopaths. Perhaps a sociopath could be given similar to live by?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 14965262
United States
07/29/2014 11:08 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
Lot of stuff here on glp about them - lots.
Have read a few good books about them also, autobiographical also that are pretty insightful- a few

[link to www.amazon.com]

[link to www.amazon.com]

They themselves come right out and say they can't change and be normal "empaths" as they refer to us - ever.

All they can do is learn more to simulate empath to "make us more comfortable" being around them.

It is very hard to accept that they are unredeamable.
Still don't want to believe it myself-
but evidence says otherwise.

They seem to go quite a long time, lay low, faking normal
then there it is - some behavior and the response to it by them that makes no sense - none - and the more you question the weirder it gets.

Still want to believe it is the hardening of the heart (romans 1) because of sin, maybe something as simple as jealously, envy in very early childhood at 3-4 years old
instead of genes (nature vs nurture debate)

but regardless of the debate -protect the innocent


Set up walls, high walls, keep distance, stay clear of their manipulation, confusion, lies
think there is very real spiritual breaches made if you don't stay away
seem to have power to cause spiritual blindness, discernment problems if you mingle with the spirits in them

it is very difficult if it is family - but a must

things get clearer the more distance and caution used
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 60893892
United States
07/29/2014 11:08 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
Sociopaths are people who simply extrapolate society's behavior to extremes.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 10106937
Canada
07/29/2014 11:13 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
why not vote him into office....?? it's where they seem to end up...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 52410732
United States
07/29/2014 11:15 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
1-100 people are psychopaths but that does not mean he will become a psycho killer. Many upper echelon professionals that are predatory could be judged as having no empathy.

Your son just sounds like a modern day teenager to me.
These days 90% of teens are Fd up.

If he starts killing pets just for something to do, B+E, beating up younger kids up, pyromania watch out.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 60678228
United States
07/29/2014 11:19 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
Except kill them.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 57906682
United States
07/29/2014 11:19 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
An 18yr old is still a child. Still in need of love. TO turn your back on him and condemn him is a projection. Take responsibility for your own short comings and do your best to help the child be a good man.

How can you expect to be loved and forgiven if you do not love and forgive. He has a heart. It's not yours to break.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 57906682
United States
07/29/2014 11:21 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
OP, you're stupid! You're dating or married to a man who is the father of child subjected to obvious abuse resulting from the effects of a broken home. Divorcing adults are unbelievably self entered during divorce and almost always badly abuse their children.

Not a sociopath, but an abused child who hasn't been allowed to grow and mature in a healthy manner!!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1575442


Well then he can come live with you since you seem to have all the answers.
 Quoting: Sireenie



What the heck did you think was going to happen. This is text book behaviour and your own attitude is also textbook. You're trying to detach this man from his own child so you can feel secure in your own new relationship with him.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1575442


THIS
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 60678228
United States
07/29/2014 11:23 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
Op sociopaths are not born, but creates when real love bonds are not made. Your partner helped create him, so you better make sure he does not fuck up the rest of his family. If he had to stable loving parents this thread would likely not exist.

I bet your husband or partner was too busy with his own life to be there for his son. You can not fix a sociopath and the best thing to do is remove them from your life. I would leave the husband and him to sort their lives out.

If you stay with this family you will have a life of misery.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54253740


Yes. Raising family means more than putting a roof over their head and food on the table. Parents needs to code emotions and personalities into their children as well. IT'S THEIR FUCKING DUTY TO! Simply don't have kids if you're too immature to do this.
 Quoting: ..l..Ruby..l..


Ever thought some are just born bad? It happens.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 57906682
United States
07/29/2014 11:26 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
NO it doesn't. Only selfish people profess this. No baby is born bad.
eekers
Dreamer of Dreams

User ID: 38137469
United States
07/29/2014 11:33 AM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
OP, I'm sorry about your situation. does he live in your house? maybe you can encourage him to move out.
 Quoting: eekers


Yes he does...he starts his Senior year of HS so he kinda has to stay.

I don't judge, I assess a conclusion based of the facts and evidence presented.

I love the kid to death....but he is most definitely showing ALL the signs of a sociopath/psychopath.

If you knew the extent of thievery, lying, destruction of personal property you would understand more that this isn't a judgement.
 Quoting: Sireenie



OP, you're stupid! You're dating or married to a man who is the father of child subjected to obvious abuse resulting from the effects of a broken home. Divorcing adults are unbelievably self entered during divorce and almost always badly abuse their children.

Not a sociopath, but an abused child who hasn't been allowed to grow and mature in a healthy manner!!!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 1575442


I'm not OP! LOL

why is everyone misquoting me?

here are the edited quotes

Last Edited by eekers on 07/29/2014 11:40 AM
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time." - T. S. Eliot
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 53715791
United Kingdom
07/29/2014 11:38 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
Op sociopaths are not born, but creates when real love bonds are not made. Your partner helped create him, so you better make sure he does not fuck up the rest of his family. If he had to stable loving parents this thread would likely not exist.

I bet your husband or partner was too busy with his own life to be there for his son. You can not fix a sociopath and the best thing to do is remove them from your life. I would leave the husband and him to sort their lives out.

If you stay with this family you will have a life of misery.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54253740


Yes. Raising family means more than putting a roof over their head and food on the table. Parents needs to code emotions and personalities into their children as well. IT'S THEIR FUCKING DUTY TO! Simply don't have kids if you're too immature to do this.
 Quoting: ..l..Ruby..l..


Ever thought some are just born bad? It happens.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 60678228


Some are born with more fire sure. No one is born bad. No one.
Lady Jane SmithModerator
Forum Administrator

User ID: 60203136
France
07/29/2014 11:40 AM

Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
It goes much beyond that...he's incredibly manipulative, goes out of his way to disrupt our lives, is a pathological liar...lies even about things that are irrelivent <sp>. And just yesterday had found out he thinks of harming or killing.
 Quoting: Sireenie


Then is is pushing the boundaries of psychopath.

A sociopath know right from wrong but does not care.

A psychopath has not such comprehension and believes the world is here to fulfill his "pleasures".
Fate whispers to the warrior

"You cannot withstand the storm"

the warrior whispers back

"I am the storm"

INTJ-A

Killer Bunny
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 804275
Canada
07/29/2014 11:43 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
Op sociopaths are not born, but creates when real love bonds are not made. Your partner helped create him, so you better make sure he does not fuck up the rest of his family. If he had to stable loving parents this thread would likely not exist.

I bet your husband or partner was too busy with his own life to be there for his son. You can not fix a sociopath and the best thing to do is remove them from your life. I would leave the husband and him to sort their lives out.

If you stay with this family you will have a life of misery.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 54253740


Yes. Raising family means more than putting a roof over their head and food on the table. Parents needs to code emotions and personalities into their children as well. IT'S THEIR FUCKING DUTY TO! Simply don't have kids if you're too immature to do this.
 Quoting: ..l..Ruby..l..


That's why society used to have strict rules of behavior. So even the young, who used to have all the kids, knew how to raise the kids and had the support of society.

Today's Millenials are useless lumps of GMO HFCS flab ass pierced tatted genital shaved and obsessed smart phone watching assholes. They are no more mature than an eight year old.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 14965262
United States
07/29/2014 11:45 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: Wow, so there really is NOTHING you can do in regards to a sociopath!
Lot of stuff here on glp about them - lots.
Have read a few good books about them also, autobiographical also that are pretty insightful- a few

[link to www.amazon.com]

[link to www.amazon.com]

They themselves come right out and say they can't change and be normal "empaths" as they refer to us - ever.

All they can do is learn more to simulate empath to "make us more comfortable" being around them.

It is very hard to accept that they are unredeamable.
Still don't want to believe it myself-
but evidence says otherwise.

They seem to go quite a long time, lay low, faking normal
then there it is - some behavior and the response to it by them that makes no sense - none - and the more you question the weirder it gets.

Still want to believe it is the hardening of the heart (romans 1) because of sin, maybe something as simple as jealously, envy in very early childhood at 3-4 years old
instead of genes (nature vs nurture debate)

but regardless of the debate -protect the innocent


Set up walls, high walls, keep distance, stay clear of their manipulation, confusion, lies
think there is very real spiritual breaches made if you don't stay away
seem to have power to cause spiritual blindness, discernment problems if you mingle with the spirits in them

it is very difficult if it is family - but a must

things get clearer the more distance and caution used
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 14965262


according to the psychopaths owns words

they will destroy anyone in their way, get revenge
undermine those who have "them figured out" or
destroy anyone who tries to caution anyone of their danger and manipulation

they will do it all very kindly though

all you can do in manage them from a distance
keep them away, warn people...carefully, very
and you must never let them know you are aware of their evil and manipulation

nothing operates logically when dealing with them





GLP