Joseph and Judah the birthright and the sceptre

it is obvious you didnt like my answer as you were expecting one to validate what you wanted to beleive.

btw... there were never any records in the temple.
it is a christian myth christians have been telling themselves to somehow shrug beneath the carpet the fact jesus is not from the line of David.

Jews can't see Jesus but see the two anointed and Christians can't see the two anointed but see Jesus....what a way to hide all three...genius I tell you...just genius

seems like you have one of those wild theories that one formulates in order make something that doesnt work, work.
too bad you havent bothered to check if the theory works because it doesnt.

the bible says the Jews are right, the gentiles are wrong.
we know that,
also... we dont see two anointed.

Well you don't see the two anointed but the mojority of the Jews look for Messiah which means anointed Ben Joseph and Messiah Ben David...so you see less than both houses

I am an orthodox Jew... who lives in Israel sorrounded by orthodox Jews.
and you say to me what the majority of Jews are looking for?

sorry waterman, you just learned some parable and you think it is literal.

no one is looking for Ben Yosef, you are welcome to get a Jewish prayer book, praying for the coming of Ben David is all over... Ben Yosef... is not even mentioned, not even once.

Apparently I've read and watched more Rabbi videos and writings than you because they are looking for the two anointed...we want moshiach now....lol...have a nice night

I doubt that.

yes we want Moshiach now
Moshiach singular
not meshichim plural.

always referring to Ben David, the only prophesied Messiah in scripture.
why do you think there is no reference to the elusive Ben Yosef, becuase as I said... it is a concept energy.
and the Rabbis after understanding it, have created a parable which we call Messiah Ben Yosef.

Because Messiah Ben David is the representative of the house of Judah...Messiah Ben joseph is the representative of the house of Ephraim...and you can't see the 2nd house yet so you rightfully look forward to your houses representative Messiah Ben david....Ezekiel 37...Judah and Joseph the two representatives....the two anointed

conjecture friend.

Overruled...lol

you can only see one house at this time so your perspective is off:



Last Edited by waterman on 08/09/2016 09:05 PM

save me the teachings of those ministeries, filled with Rabbinic teaching they have corrupted.

you are not a member of any house so your perspective is none existent.

remember the prophet Zechariah "10 man out of all the languages of the nations shall grab hold the tzitzit of him that is a Jew"

a Jew not a Mannashite or Ephraimite.

it is Judah who has preserved the knowledge of Torah, and it is Judah who will educate his brothers.

And you just confirmed what I just said...you are blind to seeing the other house...your perspective is off friend

whatever.

there will come a time when you will understand what is even the difference between Judah and Joseph.

but that will be when G-d wipes christianity off the face of earth.
a cult of liars and cheats who say the replace Israel but get all their knowledge from the Sages of Israel which they corrupt to fit thier christian delusions.

a time will come when you will throw away all you lies and beg Jews to teach you a clear uncorrected teaching.

Ill let Messiah Ben David tell ya the suprise...I'm sure you would rather have him tell you as he is representative of your house...lol

Sword you logged in..thought you might have a reply..maybe not yet

Sword you logged in..thought you might have a reply..maybe not yet

Sword you logged in..thought you might have a reply..maybe not yet

can you come up with a passage that indicates the Jewish people would be surprised at the end of time?

:GA yeah:

.c.c

You only have half a Bible...you won't be suprised til the fulness of the gentiles...so be patient...lol

you are well aware the OT alone is enough to refute the NT.

regardless... I wont be surprised until the fullness of the gentiles, oh... well why then does the bible say that it is the gentiles who are going to be surprised?

My concerne is with sword...but thanks for the replies to the rest..if you knew who sword was you would reply more...lol

As you know David is the king in the millennium and can come from no other line than Judah...which is the firstborn line

David being from the line of judah is the chief leader(civil leader) of 1 chronicles 5:2.....but notice he hasn't the firstborn birthright as that is the one from the line of Joseph which is the 2nd born.......so being David is from the line of Judah he won't be able to see the Joseph who holds the firstborn birthright because none of Josephs brothers will be able to see him before he sees them....but Joseph will be able to see david/Judah...if you have a kingship and ezekiel and jeremiah tell us there is a levitic priesthood....it will be the one with the firstborn birthright who will be in charge of it and David doesn't have the firstborn birthright...Joseph does






If I cut that down 800 words and put it on a birthday card for ya it would just say.......1 Chronicles 5:2

King James 2000 Bible
For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and from him came the prince; but the birthright was Joseph's:)








Isaiah 45:4:

King James Bible
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.


As for the surnaming...there are two who are surnamed..let me detail it for ya..lol

Isaiah 44:5

“One shall say, I am the LORD'S; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel.”



One shall say I am the LORD"S...that is firstborn Israel/Judah.....then it go on to say.."ANOTHER" which is not firstborn Israel/Judah but it is 2nd born Jacob/Israel...then it goes back to firstborn Judah/Israel

conclusion:

Jacob the 2nd born with firstborn birthright sees that the firstborn Israel is being surnamed...and realizes he as 2nd born with firstborn birthright is also surnamed...Judah/Israel is the firstborns...civil leaders...and Jacob/Israel is the birthright holder and priestly....how did he do it?....He grabbed the heel of the firstborn because he knew who the firstborn was:





The mistake you make is you think the story of Jacob is the story of the firstborn Judah/Israel and it is really the story of the 2nd born with firstborn birthright Jacob/Israel..thats why Isaiah servant chapters keep referring to Jacob(2nd born with birthright) and Israel(firstborn) instead of just saying Israel throughout the chapters..so you know who is who


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Waterman, You will never see the truth of the Word b/c you seek to change the Word to satisfy your own incorrect doctrine/beliefs.

I will not dispute you over the same material we have went over again and again. You cannot hear me because you are deceived by many things, one being, you believe I cannot see Joseph. Of course I see Joseph especially in his symbolic form spiritually, and I also see David in that same form.

I however, unlike you, do not see them as two separate symbolic individuals that God seeks to reveal for the end days. I see David and Joseph as being symbolic of the same royal positions at different time lineages in doing and fulfilling God's purpose. This is the explanation of the many names and titles of Israel/Jacob God speaks of in the book of Isaiah. Just as Israel/Jacob are not two different fellows in God's references of him, but are the same (Israel and Jacob) ONE man. This aspect of God's Word seems to be something you have no concept of at all. Always referring to Israel/Jacob as two separate entities/men. Not only that, but your theory of these two being the two witnesses excludes Elijah the other witness out of the picture altogether...lol.

[Isa.44:5kjv,] must be understood in its full context not just something guessed at as its meaning. You must understand the meaning of the verse with the alignment of the verses beforehand. That verse [Isa.44:5] is not referring to Judah/Israel or Jacob/Israel as you state. It is simply speaking of Israel/Jacob's (Jesurun) [Isa.44:2kjv,] the one who is straight as an arrow [Isa.49:2kjv] the hidden arrow's, seed and offspring. It further indicates the number of those offspring of that future symbolic Israel/Jacob would be three. One seed shall claim he/she belongs to the Lord. One man who shall be called after the name of his father Jacob. And one man of Israel's offspring's will claim his father's position/surname.

My friend there are not two individuals called Israel and Jacob as you believe. This is contrary to scripture! There is only the one man....Israel/Jacob! This is what scripture reveals as the truth and seeking to change this basic concept is seeking to mock the Word of God to replace it with total nonsense. And if anyone has any knowledge whatsoever of scripture they would know this basic truth. You are basing most of your evidence on the lie that Israel/Jacob are two different men. Instead of two different names for the same one man.

Waterman, how often have I told you it was not Joseph's spiritual brethren (as you indicate,) that could not see him, but only his consanguineous brethren who did not recognize him. Joseph therefore must have consanguineous brethren (plural, more than one) unable to see him. You lack again in another of many prophecies to qualify for that position. Much less being separate from them (his brethren) in age and/place of birth.

Hmmm I guess Isaiah forgot to mention your fourth child "windy"....you"re a stone before it's cut...a diamond in the rough sword...eltons interpretation of Isaiah 44:5 is incorrect you shouldn't adopt it...lol


You recognize two Israel nations...one called jacob/Israel and the other called Judah/Israel...yet you can't see the two individuals jacib/Israel and Judah/Israel....as far as David being Joseph they are from two different lines...you haven't come to the realization there are two princes of Israel as shown in Ezekiel 19

Last Edited by waterman on 08/10/2016 07:54 AM

I have an advantage over you friend. I can see my partner so I know who he is and who he isn't

My partner is these 3 things

1. firstborn
2. civil leader/king
3. Judah/chief leader

My partner is not these 3 things

1. 2nd born with firstborn birthright
2. priestly leader
3. Joseph from the 2nd born birthright holder line

You can't see your partner so you assume every postion..firstborn...2nd born...kingly...priestly..both princes of Ezekiel 19...Judah and Joseph of Ezekiel 37...Joshua and Zerrubabel the two anointed of zechariah become one person in your eyes...Jacob the 2nd born with firstborn birthright Israel is combined with Judah/Israel the firstborn...Ephraim the 2nd born with firstborn birthright is thrown in on top...why are you combining all the blessings and positions? because you can't see your partner so you have no other choice than to assume they are all you..lol


You don't realize the other witness is also surnamed because you can't understand Isaiah 45:4 being Jacob/Israel and the other being Judah/Israel...It would be redundant to keep calling the same person Jacob and Israel when we already know 2nd born jacobs name was changed to Israel...that should tell you it is not speaking of the same israel...it is speaking about both princes...jacob/Israel(2nd born with birthright) and Israel/Judah(firstborn sceptre holder)

Elijah(priestly) is simply one of the surnames of the other witness..he is in the volume of the book...just to name a few of each:


Eve 2nd born
Jacob 2nd born
Joseph 2nd born
Ephraim 2nd born
Aaron priestly
Joshua the high priest
Jeremiah the priest


Surnames of the other witness

David
Judah
Zerrubbabel
Moses
Adam

You divide them like this

Firstborn
2nd born with firstborn birthright

civil leader/king
priestly leader

Then you understand who is who and see the division of the two are separated as one has the kingship/sceptre and the other has the birthright and priesthood






or you can just throw them all together and be everybody in the book in your own mind...lol...two anointed friend...the book is divided between civil leaders/kings and priestly leaders....1st born and 2nd born with firstborn birthright throughout the volume of the book



Let me know when you can see your partner friend...but he is going to be hard to spot..you already took every blessing and position in the book...he may already be here and his part is so small we missed him darn it...lol

Two things you can't be friend:

1. firstborn and 2nd born
2. From the line of Judah and the line of Joseph...you are simply from the line kings come from which is Judah








Last Edited by waterman on 08/10/2016 05:07 PM

Quiet again sword...I'd like to hear how you are first-born and 2nd born...how you are from the line of Judah which David is fron and line of Joseph(2nd born with first-born birthright)..and any sight of your partner yet...you think you have every position and blessing...surely you can throw this dog some table scraps...lol

Don't forget in the volume of the book the 2nd born gets the birthright 1chrinicles 5:2




You probably think I'm mean...but I'm just trying to wake you up friend..you"re not both witnesses...you are simply the civil leader side....that's why none of the people those two are surnamed after could fullfill the promise...none weRE the first-born and second born with first-born birthright...they were all from the wrong tribes...the correct lines of the final two anointed are one from Judah and the other from Joseph first born birthright holder according to Ezekiel 37...the two sticks that make up israel





Last Edited by waterman on 08/11/2016 11:58 PM

Waterman, I have been out of town for a couple of days is the reason for my late response. Although I should not be answering your questions at all. You know my desire is not to respond to you any longer. It is but useless as I said before. You have your mind made-up and I really cannot be of any assistance to you at this point. Please stop taunting me to respond. You have plenty of others who desire to converse with you.

Elton was but one of several individuals that recognized Isaiah's meaning before I revealed to them also the same meaning of what God allowed me to discern beforehand of their delayed interpretation from my own.

The three children mentioned in [Isa.44:5kjv] would exclude a forth child lost before birth. Just as all children are excluded in earthly destinies/family units, if they fulfill their purpose beforehand. Just as David's child lost, was not of a earthly purpose, but David said he would go to him in the end, and not the child toward David, within the earthly family/fulfillment/purpose. Just as many of God's servants in scripture had children pass away before birth, but the story continues with but the known child/children only who came forth and matured and was recognized by their deeds. Thus, a forth child would not be scriptural in being mentioned in this interpretation.

There are not two princes of Israel as you claim in [Ezek.19.] It only speaks of the same prince of Israel that is the same one throughout scripture prophesied to come forth in the end. Just as king Saul for his time was the temporary prince in Israel, and afterward David was also the temporary prince in Israel.) These were the true children called in accordance to the will of the true King of Israel (the Jews,) as us Christians know Him. For only a child of a King is a prince, but a King must never be relegated to the lower position of a prince. Thus, this prince/servant hidden [2Sam.7,] could never be the King/Messiah revealed.

Therefore, the prince you speak of in [Ezek.19] is the third true and final prince/servant after Saul and David, and the last permanent prince/hidden servant of Israel.

Even David knew not of that hidden servant but the Lord God alone knew that future hidden/servant to come forth one day [2Sam.7:11-29.] If this passage was speaking of David's son Solomon, It would have been clear and lucid of its meaning, but David understood the meaning was for a far off time. Just as that prince/servant is prophesied for the end days in [Ezek.21:25-27kjv.] Therefore, we know this one servant is even hidden from David's understanding but that servant/prince is known only to God and who is now a mystery somewhat revealed [Isa.49:2kjv,] but was then a complete mystery to David.

Now we Know that David was Shown the true Messiah more then once in visions and spoken prophecies from his own mouth, that at some future time he was to one day come forth. Therefore, David came to recognize the true future Messiah. However, this future prince/servant to come to rule the house forever [2Sam.7] was not recognize by one of God's great servants/David that temporary prince/king of Israel.

OP this is that same prince you see in [Ezek.19kjv.] I know you think he is a priesthood prince, but he is not regardless of the duties he seems to be performing.

He is the same child/servant who will serve the purpose of Israel and his King. This prince is of the royal household, the priesthood on earth is never of royalty (princely positions,) but of loyalty toward Spiritual matters. The priesthood is not of the affairs of the kingdom duties.

However the reason you see that prince performing the duties of a priest is because the kingdom in which he then resides will no longer be of the earthly alone, but also of the spiritual kingdom. Thus, he will then be allowed to follow both his duties as prince/king and priest. Thus, Following the example of his Father KING/PRIEST in that age of being both of the holy priesthood and royal estate/prince, as prophesied beforehand in scripture. And God has made unto us in that age, BOTH kings and priests [Rev.5:10kjv.]

Waterman,

No one is claiming anything about one witness being two. I am only seeking to show you you are confusing the meaning of the different tribes of Israel into individual situational interpretation.

Without correct discernment you are just a portion of ever unattainable knowledge gained piece by piece mostly through individual concepts. The majority of these individuals lack several basic needs when seeking to interpret scripture. They lack discernment of the meaning of the Word, they lack the understanding that any interpretation has no value except it at least lines up with the Word. Nevertheless, the biggest foolish concept of these misguided individuals is they seek to teach others. Thus, most teach incorrect concepts, regurgitated material, and madder unfit for cognizant consumption.

Afterwards never, never, believe anything you teach, believe or receive, unless you get at least two confirmation of a very good source. Not your Mother or anyone that seeks a position from that confirmation. One loves you too much to aid you in a truth. For such individuals would lie out of love to advance your position. The other seeks to steal from you, that which they can never obtain.

I only see confusion in your understanding concerning biblical concepts and befuddlement in your life in general.
Never envy another individuals position my friend. For each member must carry their own burden, and so awkward is that burden if the calling was never there to begin with.

Lacking the knowledge of understanding you will always fail in the end. Seeking to always appear right leaves no room for correction, so no advancement spiritually to prosper yourself will ever come. Stay firm in your convictions if you must, seek humility in your attitude, and always be open to criticism, if you truly seek wisdom. For in such pain wisdom is acquired, and all knowledge is thereafter but a useless gain.

Most of all remember. God is not a foolish man that he can be manipulated by the persuasion of a fleshly mind.

Enjoy your thread but leave me out of it...okay.

God Bless.