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The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!

 
Anonymous Coward
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12/01/2014 10:16 AM
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
"The Purpose of the Great Tribulation

The purpose of this ordeal, the Time of Jacobs Trouble, is to drive Israel en extremis, to return to God:

I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me earnestly (Hosea 5:15).

Interesting Old Testament passage: God says, I will go and return to my place. To return, He must have left it! Watch those untils in the text: they often denote significant milestones. The term offence is singular and specific.

Apparently, a prerequisite condition for the Second Coming of Christ is for Israel to acknowledge her Messiah and to petition His return.

When the faithful remnant petitions Jesus to return, He comes to rescue them."

Jesus comes back to the Jews!

Yeshua
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 55552682
Anonymous Coward
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12/01/2014 10:47 AM
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
Thread: If You Do Not Believe In The Rapture...
Anonymous Coward
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12/01/2014 11:53 AM
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture View

When dealing with doctrinal issues, sometimes some truths are right there in the Bible in front of our noses, and it's easy for us to understand them. Other truths are more challenging and require us to look at the whole chapter, book, or the whole bible in order to fully grasp the concepts. When any one verse dealing with a particular doctrinal issue appears to stand apart from other similar truths, we should suspect that there may be an interpretational or possibly a translational issue involved that needs further research. I believe the doctrine of the rapture is one such difficult truth. Below I have presented my beliefs on the Pre-Trib rapture backed up by research and numerous bible verses.

The word 'rapture' is not listed in the English bible. But it is listed in the Latin Vulgate bible, written by Jerome in the early 400's AD. The word there is 'raeptius' or 'rapturo' , which translated into English means 'rapture'. It is found here in the English translation of the bible:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be *caught up* together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In English bibles, 'raeptius' or 'rapturo' is transliterated into 'caught up'. That happens sometimes during the translation process to try to communicate the point more familiarly.

The original Thessalonian manuscripts however were written in Greek. There were actually no 'English' words at all in the original bibles, including the word 'bible' itself. And the original Greek word for 'rapture' is listed in English script as 'harpazo', which means 'to rapture up into the air', or to 'snatch away' quickly.

It was this original Greek term 'harpazo' that Jerome later translated into Latin as 'raeptius' and 'rapturo', which was later translated into English as 'rapture'. These terms all mean the same thing: 'to be caught up'.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[link to www.raptureready.com]

To be raptured is the only real form of ascension, where God ascends the person instead of the person ascending himself. One does not achieve ascension into heaven by one's own efforts. Rather ascension is the free gift of God for those who believe in Yeshua(Jesus) as their Saviour and Messiah.

Below are some reasons I believe the Pre-Tribulational Rapture doctrine is likely to be the most Biblically accurate view:

1. Imminency. We're supposed to look, watch, and wait for Jesus' imminent return. Nothing has to happen before Jesus returns for us. (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thes. 1:10; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; 1 Peter 1:13; Jude 21)
The non-Pre-Trib positions ALL require certain things to happen 1st before Jesus can return. Things like the Antichrist's appearance and 7 yr peace treaty (confirming the covenant) with Israel, the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount right on or next to the Muslim Dome of the Rock, the 7 Seals & Trumpets & Bowls/Vials of Judgment, etc. These things destroy imminency.

[link to www.oxfordbiblechurch.co.uk]

2. Dispensation of the Tribulation. The Bible states that Daniel's 70th Week/Tribulation/Great Tribulation/Time of Jacob's Trouble/Day of the Lord/Wrath of God are all things related to God's dealing with Israel getting ready to restore it back to His grace. (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Ezek. 20:22-44; 22:13-22) This is not a time for the Church, but a time for "those who dwell on the earth"- meaning non-Christians. (Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14; 17:2, 8)

3. Dispensation of the Church. The Church is promised to be taken up to the Father's House in heaven. (John 14:1-3 Compare this verse with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) How can that be if the Church remains here on earth thru the 2nd Coming? Going up to meet Jesus in the air at the moment He's coming down to finish off the Antichrist and his armies is not the same as the Church going up to heaven. There is no mention of Jesus going back to heaven in the Bible after His 2nd Coming. And I don't think He's going to open heaven and come down with all His angels just to pick up the Church in the air, then do a mid-flight U-turn & go back up to heaven. Then grab some horses and linens for the Church. Then do another U-turn and come back immediately to finish off the Antichrist. The Bible doesn't say that.

Also the Church is a Mystery. (Eph. 3:1-13; 2:11-22) That means a new Truth has just been revealed. The Old Testament prophets knew nothing about it or it's role in God's plan. But they did know a lot about the Tribulation period. This is further evidence that the two ages: the Old Testament Israel era & the New Testament Church era will not overlap. Right now, the Jews and Gentiles are co-mingled in the Church, (Eph. 2-3) but this can't be when you look at God's 70 Weeks program for Israel in Daniel. The two must be separated prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week, which is the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation.

The Church has also been promised deliverance from the TIME of God's wrath. That means, "out of the time period" of the Tribulation. (1 Thes. 1:9-10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10)

4. Time Gap Needed. A time period is needed in heaven to handle some things that will take place with the Church after the rapture.

The Judgment Seat of Christ (or 'Bema' in Greek) needs to happen to Christians in the Church in heaven before they return with Jesus to the Battle of Armageddon. (2 Corinthians 5:10) This is when they get their rewards for good Christian service (or not.)

The Bride of Christ (the true Assembly(Church) has to be in heaven to get ready for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-10) as I mentioned earlier. They can't do this if they don't go up to heaven before the 2nd Coming.

The 24 Elders around the Throne in heaven appear to be very representative of the Church. If this is so, the Church must be in heaven prior to the opening of the 1st Seal of the Scroll of the Tribulation- the opening kick-off, if you will. (Revelation 4:1-5:14) In the New Testament, the elders represent the Church. (Acts 15:6; 20:28) In the Old Testament, the elders were always 24 in number, and appointed by King David to represent the entire priesthood. In Jesus' new Millennial Kingdom, Christians will assume the title of the Priesthood. (Revelation 20:6)

Where are all the mortals? If all the Christians are raptured up at the 2nd Coming of Christ, who will be left to re-populate the earth during the Millennial Kingdom? All the bad guys will be gone because of the Battle of Armageddon and the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment. Raptured Christians will have immortal bodies and will no longer pro-create. (sorry) But the Bible clearly states that there will be mortal Christians who survived the cataclysm and who would carry on mortal life on earth. (Isa. 65:20-25). And, the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment would also be impossible if all the good guys were already raptured. There would be no need for a separation of the two groups of mortals. This is an impossible situation for the Post-Tribulation Rapture proponents.

5. The Presence of the Holy Spirit. The 'man of lawlessness'/Antichrist/Beast is said to be held back for now. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12) The 'restrainer of evil'/Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) is at work in the Church right now, and His presence in Christians will leave with the Church in the Pre-Trib rapture. This will then free the Antichrist to unleash his demonic power on the world right after that, which is the first Seal of Judgment to be opened in heaven after the rapture. The Pre-Trib view is the only view that can work here.

6. Here are some comparisons between the Rapture & the 2nd Coming:

Rapture: is a translation (a supernatural changing of living mortal human bodies into immortal bodies) & resurrection (of the dead Christians) coming where the Lord comes FOR His Church/Bride (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) and taking her to His Father's House in heaven. (John 14:3)
2nd Coming: Jesus is coming WITH his saints/Church/Bride to set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth for 1000 yrs. (Rev. 19; Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31)

Rapture: is a 'Mystery', a newly revealed truth (1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 1:26) not known to the Old Testament prophets, and making it a separate event from anything they have foreseen. The New Testament talks about the Rapture of the Church and the 2nd Coming.
2nd Coming: was predicted in the Old Testament. (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4) The Old Testament of Israel just talks about the 2nd Coming. That is what they saw in prophecy, and that is what Israel in the End Times will see in person.

More comparisons between the two:

Rapture: Translation of all believers
2nd Coming: No translation of anyone

Rapture: Translated saints go up to heaven
2nd Coming: Translated saints return to earth

Rapture: Earth is not judged at that time
2nd Coming: Earth is judged and righteousness is restored

Rapture: Imminent and sign-less
2nd Coming: Follows exact signs and days according to
Daniel and Revelation prior to.

Rapture: Is for Believers (true Christians) only
2nd Coming: Is for everyone

Rapture: Happens before the Day of Wrath
2nd Coming: Concludes the Day of Wrath

Rapture: Has no reference to Satan
2nd Coming: Satan is bound up for 1000 yrs.

Rapture: Jesus comes in the air only
2nd Coming: Jesus comes down to the earth

Rapture: Only Christians see Him
2nd Coming: Everyone sees Him

Rapture: Tribulation then begins thereafter
2nd Coming: Millennial Kingdom then begins

7. Practical Results of a Pre-Trib Rapture. Some people think the Pre-Tribbers have illusions of escapism that will destroy their witness and faith if the Pre-Trib Rapture doesn't play out. They think Pre-Tribbers don't care about anything or anyone because they think they have a 'Get out of Jail Free' card for the Tribulation. However, they might not realize that Jesus will reward Christians for good service at the Judgment Seat of Christ later in heaven after the rapture. If there is no good Christian service, there may be little or no rewards waiting for them after the rapture.

The fact that Jesus could return today for us should be a good motivator for living a good Christian life and doing good works for Christ.

Also, knowing that loved ones: friends and family, who aren't Christians will be left behind after the rapture to face the coming cataclysm of the Great Tribulation should be enough to motivate them to try to lead as many people as possible to Christ before it's too late.

If the Pre-Wrath or Mid-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation Rapture view was accurate, a simple study of Daniel's 70th Week would then show you exactly when Jesus is returning for the 2nd Coming. All you have to do is note when the Antichrist's 7 year peace treaty with Israel (confirmation of the covenant) is signed, or note just when the Antichrist's abomination of desolation in the new Jewish Temple happens, and you can compute the exact day of our Lord's 2nd Coming. No imminency there. No need to always live a righteous life there. You could then just sin and sin and wait around until the last day (if you survived) before Christ's return and then repent and be good. Based on my understanding of the Bible, I just don't think it works like that.

And whoever said that we must suffer through the Tribulation to be purified?, or to do good works in it to get saved?

Ephesians 2:7-9
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What about everyone who has died already who didn't suffer any hardships at all? By some people's definition, they are not saved because they have suffered no great tribulation. That just doesn't make any sense. Jesus said that we would be delivered from the time and hour of God's judgment to "those who dwell on the earth." His great judgment is for those who have rejected Jesus, not for His children. Satan has given Christians plenty of tribulation over the years, and continues to do so even today.

[link to www.persecution.com]

Revelation 3:10 (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That is the 'Blessed Hope!'

Titus 2:13 (KJV)
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Maranatha!

Peace.

[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.raptureme.com]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to raptureforums.com]
[link to www.raptureforums.com]
Anonymous
User ID: 58890058
United States
12/01/2014 12:47 PM
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture View

When dealing with doctrinal issues, sometimes some truths are right there in the Bible in front of our noses, and it's easy for us to understand them. Other truths are more challenging and require us to look at the whole chapter, book, or the whole bible in order to fully grasp the concepts. When any one verse dealing with a particular doctrinal issue appears to stand apart from other similar truths, we should suspect that there may be an interpretational or possibly a translational issue involved that needs further research. I believe the doctrine of the rapture is one such difficult truth. Below I have presented my beliefs on the Pre-Trib rapture backed up by research and numerous bible verses.

The word 'rapture' is not listed in the English bible. But it is listed in the Latin Vulgate bible, written by Jerome in the early 400's AD. The word there is 'raeptius' or 'rapturo' , which translated into English means 'rapture'. It is found here in the English translation of the bible:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be *caught up* together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In English bibles, 'raeptius' or 'rapturo' is transliterated into 'caught up'. That happens sometimes during the translation process to try to communicate the point more familiarly.

The original Thessalonian manuscripts however were written in Greek. There were actually no 'English' words at all in the original bibles, including the word 'bible' itself. And the original Greek word for 'rapture' is listed in English script as 'harpazo', which means 'to rapture up into the air', or to 'snatch away' quickly.

It was this original Greek term 'harpazo' that Jerome later translated into Latin as 'raeptius' and 'rapturo', which was later translated into English as 'rapture'. These terms all mean the same thing: 'to be caught up'.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[link to www.raptureready.com]

To be raptured is the only real form of ascension, where God ascends the person instead of the person ascending himself. One does not achieve ascension into heaven by one's own efforts. Rather ascension is the free gift of God for those who believe in Yeshua(Jesus) as their Saviour and Messiah.

Below are some reasons I believe the Pre-Tribulational Rapture doctrine is likely to be the most Biblically accurate view:

1. Imminency. We're supposed to look, watch, and wait for Jesus' imminent return. Nothing has to happen before Jesus returns for us. (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thes. 1:10; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; 1 Peter 1:13; Jude 21)
The non-Pre-Trib positions ALL require certain things to happen 1st before Jesus can return. Things like the Antichrist's appearance and 7 yr peace treaty (confirming the covenant) with Israel, the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount right on or next to the Muslim Dome of the Rock, the 7 Seals & Trumpets & Bowls/Vials of Judgment, etc. These things destroy imminency.

[link to www.oxfordbiblechurch.co.uk]

2. Dispensation of the Tribulation. The Bible states that Daniel's 70th Week/Tribulation/Great Tribulation/Time of Jacob's Trouble/Day of the Lord/Wrath of God are all things related to God's dealing with Israel getting ready to restore it back to His grace. (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Ezek. 20:22-44; 22:13-22) This is not a time for the Church, but a time for "those who dwell on the earth"- meaning non-Christians. (Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14; 17:2, 8)

3. Dispensation of the Church. The Church is promised to be taken up to the Father's House in heaven. (John 14:1-3 Compare this verse with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) How can that be if the Church remains here on earth thru the 2nd Coming? Going up to meet Jesus in the air at the moment He's coming down to finish off the Antichrist and his armies is not the same as the Church going up to heaven. There is no mention of Jesus going back to heaven in the Bible after His 2nd Coming. And I don't think He's going to open heaven and come down with all His angels just to pick up the Church in the air, then do a mid-flight U-turn & go back up to heaven. Then grab some horses and linens for the Church. Then do another U-turn and come back immediately to finish off the Antichrist. The Bible doesn't say that.

Also the Church is a Mystery. (Eph. 3:1-13; 2:11-22) That means a new Truth has just been revealed. The Old Testament prophets knew nothing about it or it's role in God's plan. But they did know a lot about the Tribulation period. This is further evidence that the two ages: the Old Testament Israel era & the New Testament Church era will not overlap. Right now, the Jews and Gentiles are co-mingled in the Church, (Eph. 2-3) but this can't be when you look at God's 70 Weeks program for Israel in Daniel. The two must be separated prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week, which is the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation.

The Church has also been promised deliverance from the TIME of God's wrath. That means, "out of the time period" of the Tribulation. (1 Thes. 1:9-10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10)

4. Time Gap Needed. A time period is needed in heaven to handle some things that will take place with the Church after the rapture.

The Judgment Seat of Christ (or 'Bema' in Greek) needs to happen to Christians in the Church in heaven before they return with Jesus to the Battle of Armageddon. (2 Corinthians 5:10) This is when they get their rewards for good Christian service (or not.)

The Bride of Christ (the true Assembly(Church) has to be in heaven to get ready for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-10) as I mentioned earlier. They can't do this if they don't go up to heaven before the 2nd Coming.

The 24 Elders around the Throne in heaven appear to be very representative of the Church. If this is so, the Church must be in heaven prior to the opening of the 1st Seal of the Scroll of the Tribulation- the opening kick-off, if you will. (Revelation 4:1-5:14) In the New Testament, the elders represent the Church. (Acts 15:6; 20:28) In the Old Testament, the elders were always 24 in number, and appointed by King David to represent the entire priesthood. In Jesus' new Millennial Kingdom, Christians will assume the title of the Priesthood. (Revelation 20:6)

Where are all the mortals? If all the Christians are raptured up at the 2nd Coming of Christ, who will be left to re-populate the earth during the Millennial Kingdom? All the bad guys will be gone because of the Battle of Armageddon and the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment. Raptured Christians will have immortal bodies and will no longer pro-create. (sorry) But the Bible clearly states that there will be mortal Christians who survived the cataclysm and who would carry on mortal life on earth. (Isa. 65:20-25). And, the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment would also be impossible if all the good guys were already raptured. There would be no need for a separation of the two groups of mortals. This is an impossible situation for the Post-Tribulation Rapture proponents.

5. The Presence of the Holy Spirit. The 'man of lawlessness'/Antichrist/Beast is said to be held back for now. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12) The 'restrainer of evil'/Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) is at work in the Church right now, and His presence in Christians will leave with the Church in the Pre-Trib rapture. This will then free the Antichrist to unleash his demonic power on the world right after that, which is the first Seal of Judgment to be opened in heaven after the rapture. The Pre-Trib view is the only view that can work here.

6. Here are some comparisons between the Rapture & the 2nd Coming:

Rapture: is a translation (a supernatural changing of living mortal human bodies into immortal bodies) & resurrection (of the dead Christians) coming where the Lord comes FOR His Church/Bride (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) and taking her to His Father's House in heaven. (John 14:3)
2nd Coming: Jesus is coming WITH his saints/Church/Bride to set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth for 1000 yrs. (Rev. 19; Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31)

Rapture: is a 'Mystery', a newly revealed truth (1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 1:26) not known to the Old Testament prophets, and making it a separate event from anything they have foreseen. The New Testament talks about the Rapture of the Church and the 2nd Coming.
2nd Coming: was predicted in the Old Testament. (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4) The Old Testament of Israel just talks about the 2nd Coming. That is what they saw in prophecy, and that is what Israel in the End Times will see in person.

More comparisons between the two:

Rapture: Translation of all believers
2nd Coming: No translation of anyone

Rapture: Translated saints go up to heaven
2nd Coming: Translated saints return to earth

Rapture: Earth is not judged at that time
2nd Coming: Earth is judged and righteousness is restored

Rapture: Imminent and sign-less
2nd Coming: Follows exact signs and days according to
Daniel and Revelation prior to.

Rapture: Is for Believers (true Christians) only
2nd Coming: Is for everyone

Rapture: Happens before the Day of Wrath
2nd Coming: Concludes the Day of Wrath

Rapture: Has no reference to Satan
2nd Coming: Satan is bound up for 1000 yrs.

Rapture: Jesus comes in the air only
2nd Coming: Jesus comes down to the earth

Rapture: Only Christians see Him
2nd Coming: Everyone sees Him

Rapture: Tribulation then begins thereafter
2nd Coming: Millennial Kingdom then begins

7. Practical Results of a Pre-Trib Rapture. Some people think the Pre-Tribbers have illusions of escapism that will destroy their witness and faith if the Pre-Trib Rapture doesn't play out. They think Pre-Tribbers don't care about anything or anyone because they think they have a 'Get out of Jail Free' card for the Tribulation. However, they might not realize that Jesus will reward Christians for good service at the Judgment Seat of Christ later in heaven after the rapture. If there is no good Christian service, there may be little or no rewards waiting for them after the rapture.

The fact that Jesus could return today for us should be a good motivator for living a good Christian life and doing good works for Christ.

Also, knowing that loved ones: friends and family, who aren't Christians will be left behind after the rapture to face the coming cataclysm of the Great Tribulation should be enough to motivate them to try to lead as many people as possible to Christ before it's too late.

If the Pre-Wrath or Mid-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation Rapture view was accurate, a simple study of Daniel's 70th Week would then show you exactly when Jesus is returning for the 2nd Coming. All you have to do is note when the Antichrist's 7 year peace treaty with Israel (confirmation of the covenant) is signed, or note just when the Antichrist's abomination of desolation in the new Jewish Temple happens, and you can compute the exact day of our Lord's 2nd Coming. No imminency there. No need to always live a righteous life there. You could then just sin and sin and wait around until the last day (if you survived) before Christ's return and then repent and be good. Based on my understanding of the Bible, I just don't think it works like that.

And whoever said that we must suffer through the Tribulation to be purified?, or to do good works in it to get saved?

Ephesians 2:7-9
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What about everyone who has died already who didn't suffer any hardships at all? By some people's definition, they are not saved because they have suffered no great tribulation. That just doesn't make any sense. Jesus said that we would be delivered from the time and hour of God's judgment to "those who dwell on the earth." His great judgment is for those who have rejected Jesus, not for His children. Satan has given Christians plenty of tribulation over the years, and continues to do so even today.

[link to www.persecution.com]

Revelation 3:10 (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That is the 'Blessed Hope!'

Titus 2:13 (KJV)
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Maranatha!

Peace.

[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.raptureme.com]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to raptureforums.com]
[link to www.raptureforums.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 65185852


Spot on!
NewtonsOwn  (OP)

User ID: 63980044
United States
12/01/2014 04:50 PM
Report Abusive Post
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture View

When dealing with doctrinal issues, sometimes some truths are right there in the Bible in front of our noses, and it's easy for us to understand them. Other truths are more challenging and require us to look at the whole chapter, book, or the whole bible in order to fully grasp the concepts. When any one verse dealing with a particular doctrinal issue appears to stand apart from other similar truths, we should suspect that there may be an interpretational or possibly a translational issue involved that needs further research. I believe the doctrine of the rapture is one such difficult truth. Below I have presented my beliefs on the Pre-Trib rapture backed up by research and numerous bible verses.

The word 'rapture' is not listed in the English bible. But it is listed in the Latin Vulgate bible, written by Jerome in the early 400's AD. The word there is 'raeptius' or 'rapturo' , which translated into English means 'rapture'. It is found here in the English translation of the bible:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be *caught up* together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In English bibles, 'raeptius' or 'rapturo' is transliterated into 'caught up'. That happens sometimes during the translation process to try to communicate the point more familiarly.

The original Thessalonian manuscripts however were written in Greek. There were actually no 'English' words at all in the original bibles, including the word 'bible' itself. And the original Greek word for 'rapture' is listed in English script as 'harpazo', which means 'to rapture up into the air', or to 'snatch away' quickly.

It was this original Greek term 'harpazo' that Jerome later translated into Latin as 'raeptius' and 'rapturo', which was later translated into English as 'rapture'. These terms all mean the same thing: 'to be caught up'.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[link to www.raptureready.com]

To be raptured is the only real form of ascension, where God ascends the person instead of the person ascending himself. One does not achieve ascension into heaven by one's own efforts. Rather ascension is the free gift of God for those who believe in Yeshua(Jesus) as their Saviour and Messiah.

Below are some reasons I believe the Pre-Tribulational Rapture doctrine is likely to be the most Biblically accurate view:

1. Imminency. We're supposed to look, watch, and wait for Jesus' imminent return. Nothing has to happen before Jesus returns for us. (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thes. 1:10; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; 1 Peter 1:13; Jude 21)
The non-Pre-Trib positions ALL require certain things to happen 1st before Jesus can return. Things like the Antichrist's appearance and 7 yr peace treaty (confirming the covenant) with Israel, the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount right on or next to the Muslim Dome of the Rock, the 7 Seals & Trumpets & Bowls/Vials of Judgment, etc. These things destroy imminency.

[link to www.oxfordbiblechurch.co.uk]

2. Dispensation of the Tribulation. The Bible states that Daniel's 70th Week/Tribulation/Great Tribulation/Time of Jacob's Trouble/Day of the Lord/Wrath of God are all things related to God's dealing with Israel getting ready to restore it back to His grace. (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Ezek. 20:22-44; 22:13-22) This is not a time for the Church, but a time for "those who dwell on the earth"- meaning non-Christians. (Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14; 17:2, 8)

3. Dispensation of the Church. The Church is promised to be taken up to the Father's House in heaven. (John 14:1-3 Compare this verse with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) How can that be if the Church remains here on earth thru the 2nd Coming? Going up to meet Jesus in the air at the moment He's coming down to finish off the Antichrist and his armies is not the same as the Church going up to heaven. There is no mention of Jesus going back to heaven in the Bible after His 2nd Coming. And I don't think He's going to open heaven and come down with all His angels just to pick up the Church in the air, then do a mid-flight U-turn & go back up to heaven. Then grab some horses and linens for the Church. Then do another U-turn and come back immediately to finish off the Antichrist. The Bible doesn't say that.

Also the Church is a Mystery. (Eph. 3:1-13; 2:11-22) That means a new Truth has just been revealed. The Old Testament prophets knew nothing about it or it's role in God's plan. But they did know a lot about the Tribulation period. This is further evidence that the two ages: the Old Testament Israel era & the New Testament Church era will not overlap. Right now, the Jews and Gentiles are co-mingled in the Church, (Eph. 2-3) but this can't be when you look at God's 70 Weeks program for Israel in Daniel. The two must be separated prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week, which is the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation.

The Church has also been promised deliverance from the TIME of God's wrath. That means, "out of the time period" of the Tribulation. (1 Thes. 1:9-10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10)

4. Time Gap Needed. A time period is needed in heaven to handle some things that will take place with the Church after the rapture.

The Judgment Seat of Christ (or 'Bema' in Greek) needs to happen to Christians in the Church in heaven before they return with Jesus to the Battle of Armageddon. (2 Corinthians 5:10) This is when they get their rewards for good Christian service (or not.)

The Bride of Christ (the true Assembly(Church) has to be in heaven to get ready for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-10) as I mentioned earlier. They can't do this if they don't go up to heaven before the 2nd Coming.

The 24 Elders around the Throne in heaven appear to be very representative of the Church. If this is so, the Church must be in heaven prior to the opening of the 1st Seal of the Scroll of the Tribulation- the opening kick-off, if you will. (Revelation 4:1-5:14) In the New Testament, the elders represent the Church. (Acts 15:6; 20:28) In the Old Testament, the elders were always 24 in number, and appointed by King David to represent the entire priesthood. In Jesus' new Millennial Kingdom, Christians will assume the title of the Priesthood. (Revelation 20:6)

Where are all the mortals? If all the Christians are raptured up at the 2nd Coming of Christ, who will be left to re-populate the earth during the Millennial Kingdom? All the bad guys will be gone because of the Battle of Armageddon and the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment. Raptured Christians will have immortal bodies and will no longer pro-create. (sorry) But the Bible clearly states that there will be mortal Christians who survived the cataclysm and who would carry on mortal life on earth. (Isa. 65:20-25). And, the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment would also be impossible if all the good guys were already raptured. There would be no need for a separation of the two groups of mortals. This is an impossible situation for the Post-Tribulation Rapture proponents.

5. The Presence of the Holy Spirit. The 'man of lawlessness'/Antichrist/Beast is said to be held back for now. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12) The 'restrainer of evil'/Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) is at work in the Church right now, and His presence in Christians will leave with the Church in the Pre-Trib rapture. This will then free the Antichrist to unleash his demonic power on the world right after that, which is the first Seal of Judgment to be opened in heaven after the rapture. The Pre-Trib view is the only view that can work here.

6. Here are some comparisons between the Rapture & the 2nd Coming:

Rapture: is a translation (a supernatural changing of living mortal human bodies into immortal bodies) & resurrection (of the dead Christians) coming where the Lord comes FOR His Church/Bride (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) and taking her to His Father's House in heaven. (John 14:3)
2nd Coming: Jesus is coming WITH his saints/Church/Bride to set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth for 1000 yrs. (Rev. 19; Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31)

Rapture: is a 'Mystery', a newly revealed truth (1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 1:26) not known to the Old Testament prophets, and making it a separate event from anything they have foreseen. The New Testament talks about the Rapture of the Church and the 2nd Coming.
2nd Coming: was predicted in the Old Testament. (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4) The Old Testament of Israel just talks about the 2nd Coming. That is what they saw in prophecy, and that is what Israel in the End Times will see in person.

More comparisons between the two:

Rapture: Translation of all believers
2nd Coming: No translation of anyone

Rapture: Translated saints go up to heaven
2nd Coming: Translated saints return to earth

Rapture: Earth is not judged at that time
2nd Coming: Earth is judged and righteousness is restored

Rapture: Imminent and sign-less
2nd Coming: Follows exact signs and days according to
Daniel and Revelation prior to.

Rapture: Is for Believers (true Christians) only
2nd Coming: Is for everyone

Rapture: Happens before the Day of Wrath
2nd Coming: Concludes the Day of Wrath

Rapture: Has no reference to Satan
2nd Coming: Satan is bound up for 1000 yrs.

Rapture: Jesus comes in the air only
2nd Coming: Jesus comes down to the earth

Rapture: Only Christians see Him
2nd Coming: Everyone sees Him

Rapture: Tribulation then begins thereafter
2nd Coming: Millennial Kingdom then begins

7. Practical Results of a Pre-Trib Rapture. Some people think the Pre-Tribbers have illusions of escapism that will destroy their witness and faith if the Pre-Trib Rapture doesn't play out. They think Pre-Tribbers don't care about anything or anyone because they think they have a 'Get out of Jail Free' card for the Tribulation. However, they might not realize that Jesus will reward Christians for good service at the Judgment Seat of Christ later in heaven after the rapture. If there is no good Christian service, there may be little or no rewards waiting for them after the rapture.

The fact that Jesus could return today for us should be a good motivator for living a good Christian life and doing good works for Christ.

Also, knowing that loved ones: friends and family, who aren't Christians will be left behind after the rapture to face the coming cataclysm of the Great Tribulation should be enough to motivate them to try to lead as many people as possible to Christ before it's too late.

If the Pre-Wrath or Mid-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation Rapture view was accurate, a simple study of Daniel's 70th Week would then show you exactly when Jesus is returning for the 2nd Coming. All you have to do is note when the Antichrist's 7 year peace treaty with Israel (confirmation of the covenant) is signed, or note just when the Antichrist's abomination of desolation in the new Jewish Temple happens, and you can compute the exact day of our Lord's 2nd Coming. No imminency there. No need to always live a righteous life there. You could then just sin and sin and wait around until the last day (if you survived) before Christ's return and then repent and be good. Based on my understanding of the Bible, I just don't think it works like that.

And whoever said that we must suffer through the Tribulation to be purified?, or to do good works in it to get saved?

Ephesians 2:7-9
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What about everyone who has died already who didn't suffer any hardships at all? By some people's definition, they are not saved because they have suffered no great tribulation. That just doesn't make any sense. Jesus said that we would be delivered from the time and hour of God's judgment to "those who dwell on the earth." His great judgment is for those who have rejected Jesus, not for His children. Satan has given Christians plenty of tribulation over the years, and continues to do so even today.

[link to www.persecution.com]

Revelation 3:10 (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That is the 'Blessed Hope!'

Titus 2:13 (KJV)
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Maranatha!

Peace.

[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.raptureme.com]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to raptureforums.com]
[link to www.raptureforums.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 65185852


I read through this, and I've heard it all before. The simple fact remains that in 2nd Thessalonians, the rapture cannot take place until several other important things take place first. The man of sin must be revealed, the restrainer must be taken out of the way, the abomination of desolation must occur and that happens at the mid point of the tribulation. If, and it's a big if, the rapture does occur, it happens mid tribulation or post tribulation, which is the view I personally hold to.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
OP,

NO,

Why do you think it is so very incredibly bad,

not to mention FALSE DOCTRINE!

that anyone believes they MIGHT!

meet Jesus Christ

on His timetable, clock, calendar...

MAYBE 3 1/2 OR EVEN 7 YEARS

before YOU do...


Why is that so bad???
Anonymous Coward
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12/01/2014 08:55 PM
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First Gospel Message.... from the Book of Isaiah.......written approx. 700 years before Christ came.



penguin
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 65369908


^John MacArthur is one of today's best preachers of the Word of God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56274529


for those that want The Truth according to The Word Of God
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
Every word spoken to the Jews now applies to all believers, and every word spoken to the believers in Christ now applies to the Jews. All of our only hope is believing in him and walking in his ways. Jesus said I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Not saying the old Jewish law applies to everyone, don't take me out of context, but I'm saying that while you are saying Luke 17 20-37 is being spoken exclusively to the Jews, Jesus himself made no such distinction. He was speaking to everyone, Jew and gentile alike. Jesus is a saviour to all and his words were spoken and applied to all men, everywhere.
 Quoting: NewtonsOwn


Do you understand The Bible?

Do you know God has different dealings with,

according to His Word,

Israel and the Church?
Anonymous Coward
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Can you understand that there is a difference

between the ekklesia that is grafted into God's Israel

and Israel that rejects Her Messiah?


"NewtonsOwn",

Are you with me here?
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
NEWTONSOWN, WHO DO YOU SAY THAT JESUS CHRIST IS?
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
Every word spoken to the Jews now applies to all believers, and every word spoken to the believers in Christ now applies to the Jews. All of our only hope is believing in him and walking in his ways. Jesus said I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Not saying the old Jewish law applies to everyone, don't take me out of context, but I'm saying that while you are saying Luke 17 20-37 is being spoken exclusively to the Jews, Jesus himself made no such distinction. He was speaking to everyone, Jew and gentile alike. Jesus is a saviour to all and his words were spoken and applied to all men, everywhere.
 Quoting: NewtonsOwn


Sorry, that's where many are going wrong here. You need to learn to differentiate between what was being said to the Jew and what was being said to the Church.

Once you have discovered this, Gods Holy Word becomes very clear on this subject. I hope and pray everyone here can wrap their head around this!
 Quoting: anonymous 64946684


Right?
Doometropolis

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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
Ok I will help you 7 and 3 1/2 year tards.

Pay attention now.

Gen_7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.


Mat_24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luk_17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.


Luk_1:24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,

Rev_9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.


Rev_9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.


Wow thats pretty simplistic huh?


Oh wait I guess I better do this 5x30=?


Now did I just say that the GREAT scary tribulation is 5 months?

No I did not say it. "The Bible did". WOW!!!

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mar_13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Thank you Jesus
for providing me and my friends a 3rd and 4th witness.

Last Edited by Doometropolis on 12/01/2014 09:18 PM
Anonymous Coward
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The Pre-Tribulation Rapture View

When dealing with doctrinal issues, sometimes some truths are right there in the Bible in front of our noses, and it's easy for us to understand them. Other truths are more challenging and require us to look at the whole chapter, book, or the whole bible in order to fully grasp the concepts. When any one verse dealing with a particular doctrinal issue appears to stand apart from other similar truths, we should suspect that there may be an interpretational or possibly a translational issue involved that needs further research. I believe the doctrine of the rapture is one such difficult truth. Below I have presented my beliefs on the Pre-Trib rapture backed up by research and numerous bible verses.

The word 'rapture' is not listed in the English bible. But it is listed in the Latin Vulgate bible, written by Jerome in the early 400's AD. The word there is 'raeptius' or 'rapturo' , which translated into English means 'rapture'. It is found here in the English translation of the bible:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be *caught up* together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In English bibles, 'raeptius' or 'rapturo' is transliterated into 'caught up'. That happens sometimes during the translation process to try to communicate the point more familiarly.

The original Thessalonian manuscripts however were written in Greek. There were actually no 'English' words at all in the original bibles, including the word 'bible' itself. And the original Greek word for 'rapture' is listed in English script as 'harpazo', which means 'to rapture up into the air', or to 'snatch away' quickly.

It was this original Greek term 'harpazo' that Jerome later translated into Latin as 'raeptius' and 'rapturo', which was later translated into English as 'rapture'. These terms all mean the same thing: 'to be caught up'.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[link to www.raptureready.com]

To be raptured is the only real form of ascension, where God ascends the person instead of the person ascending himself. One does not achieve ascension into heaven by one's own efforts. Rather ascension is the free gift of God for those who believe in Yeshua(Jesus) as their Saviour and Messiah.

Below are some reasons I believe the Pre-Tribulational Rapture doctrine is likely to be the most Biblically accurate view:

1. Imminency. We're supposed to look, watch, and wait for Jesus' imminent return. Nothing has to happen before Jesus returns for us. (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thes. 1:10; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; 1 Peter 1:13; Jude 21)
The non-Pre-Trib positions ALL require certain things to happen 1st before Jesus can return. Things like the Antichrist's appearance and 7 yr peace treaty (confirming the covenant) with Israel, the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount right on or next to the Muslim Dome of the Rock, the 7 Seals & Trumpets & Bowls/Vials of Judgment, etc. These things destroy imminency.

[link to www.oxfordbiblechurch.co.uk]

2. Dispensation of the Tribulation. The Bible states that Daniel's 70th Week/Tribulation/Great Tribulation/Time of Jacob's Trouble/Day of the Lord/Wrath of God are all things related to God's dealing with Israel getting ready to restore it back to His grace. (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Ezek. 20:22-44; 22:13-22) This is not a time for the Church, but a time for "those who dwell on the earth"- meaning non-Christians. (Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14; 17:2, 8)

3. Dispensation of the Church. The Church is promised to be taken up to the Father's House in heaven. (John 14:1-3 Compare this verse with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) How can that be if the Church remains here on earth thru the 2nd Coming? Going up to meet Jesus in the air at the moment He's coming down to finish off the Antichrist and his armies is not the same as the Church going up to heaven. There is no mention of Jesus going back to heaven in the Bible after His 2nd Coming. And I don't think He's going to open heaven and come down with all His angels just to pick up the Church in the air, then do a mid-flight U-turn & go back up to heaven. Then grab some horses and linens for the Church. Then do another U-turn and come back immediately to finish off the Antichrist. The Bible doesn't say that.

Also the Church is a Mystery. (Eph. 3:1-13; 2:11-22) That means a new Truth has just been revealed. The Old Testament prophets knew nothing about it or it's role in God's plan. But they did know a lot about the Tribulation period. This is further evidence that the two ages: the Old Testament Israel era & the New Testament Church era will not overlap. Right now, the Jews and Gentiles are co-mingled in the Church, (Eph. 2-3) but this can't be when you look at God's 70 Weeks program for Israel in Daniel. The two must be separated prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week, which is the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation.

The Church has also been promised deliverance from the TIME of God's wrath. That means, "out of the time period" of the Tribulation. (1 Thes. 1:9-10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10)

4. Time Gap Needed. A time period is needed in heaven to handle some things that will take place with the Church after the rapture.

The Judgment Seat of Christ (or 'Bema' in Greek) needs to happen to Christians in the Church in heaven before they return with Jesus to the Battle of Armageddon. (2 Corinthians 5:10) This is when they get their rewards for good Christian service (or not.)

The Bride of Christ (the true Assembly(Church) has to be in heaven to get ready for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-10) as I mentioned earlier. They can't do this if they don't go up to heaven before the 2nd Coming.

The 24 Elders around the Throne in heaven appear to be very representative of the Church. If this is so, the Church must be in heaven prior to the opening of the 1st Seal of the Scroll of the Tribulation- the opening kick-off, if you will. (Revelation 4:1-5:14) In the New Testament, the elders represent the Church. (Acts 15:6; 20:28) In the Old Testament, the elders were always 24 in number, and appointed by King David to represent the entire priesthood. In Jesus' new Millennial Kingdom, Christians will assume the title of the Priesthood. (Revelation 20:6)

Where are all the mortals? If all the Christians are raptured up at the 2nd Coming of Christ, who will be left to re-populate the earth during the Millennial Kingdom? All the bad guys will be gone because of the Battle of Armageddon and the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment. Raptured Christians will have immortal bodies and will no longer pro-create. (sorry) But the Bible clearly states that there will be mortal Christians who survived the cataclysm and who would carry on mortal life on earth. (Isa. 65:20-25). And, the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment would also be impossible if all the good guys were already raptured. There would be no need for a separation of the two groups of mortals. This is an impossible situation for the Post-Tribulation Rapture proponents.

5. The Presence of the Holy Spirit. The 'man of lawlessness'/Antichrist/Beast is said to be held back for now. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12) The 'restrainer of evil'/Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) is at work in the Church right now, and His presence in Christians will leave with the Church in the Pre-Trib rapture. This will then free the Antichrist to unleash his demonic power on the world right after that, which is the first Seal of Judgment to be opened in heaven after the rapture. The Pre-Trib view is the only view that can work here.

6. Here are some comparisons between the Rapture & the 2nd Coming:

Rapture: is a translation (a supernatural changing of living mortal human bodies into immortal bodies) & resurrection (of the dead Christians) coming where the Lord comes FOR His Church/Bride (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) and taking her to His Father's House in heaven. (John 14:3)
2nd Coming: Jesus is coming WITH his saints/Church/Bride to set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth for 1000 yrs. (Rev. 19; Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31)

Rapture: is a 'Mystery', a newly revealed truth (1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 1:26) not known to the Old Testament prophets, and making it a separate event from anything they have foreseen. The New Testament talks about the Rapture of the Church and the 2nd Coming.
2nd Coming: was predicted in the Old Testament. (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4) The Old Testament of Israel just talks about the 2nd Coming. That is what they saw in prophecy, and that is what Israel in the End Times will see in person.

More comparisons between the two:

Rapture: Translation of all believers
2nd Coming: No translation of anyone

Rapture: Translated saints go up to heaven
2nd Coming: Translated saints return to earth

Rapture: Earth is not judged at that time
2nd Coming: Earth is judged and righteousness is restored

Rapture: Imminent and sign-less
2nd Coming: Follows exact signs and days according to
Daniel and Revelation prior to.

Rapture: Is for Believers (true Christians) only
2nd Coming: Is for everyone

Rapture: Happens before the Day of Wrath
2nd Coming: Concludes the Day of Wrath

Rapture: Has no reference to Satan
2nd Coming: Satan is bound up for 1000 yrs.

Rapture: Jesus comes in the air only
2nd Coming: Jesus comes down to the earth

Rapture: Only Christians see Him
2nd Coming: Everyone sees Him

Rapture: Tribulation then begins thereafter
2nd Coming: Millennial Kingdom then begins

7. Practical Results of a Pre-Trib Rapture. Some people think the Pre-Tribbers have illusions of escapism that will destroy their witness and faith if the Pre-Trib Rapture doesn't play out. They think Pre-Tribbers don't care about anything or anyone because they think they have a 'Get out of Jail Free' card for the Tribulation. However, they might not realize that Jesus will reward Christians for good service at the Judgment Seat of Christ later in heaven after the rapture. If there is no good Christian service, there may be little or no rewards waiting for them after the rapture.

The fact that Jesus could return today for us should be a good motivator for living a good Christian life and doing good works for Christ.

Also, knowing that loved ones: friends and family, who aren't Christians will be left behind after the rapture to face the coming cataclysm of the Great Tribulation should be enough to motivate them to try to lead as many people as possible to Christ before it's too late.

If the Pre-Wrath or Mid-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation Rapture view was accurate, a simple study of Daniel's 70th Week would then show you exactly when Jesus is returning for the 2nd Coming. All you have to do is note when the Antichrist's 7 year peace treaty with Israel (confirmation of the covenant) is signed, or note just when the Antichrist's abomination of desolation in the new Jewish Temple happens, and you can compute the exact day of our Lord's 2nd Coming. No imminency there. No need to always live a righteous life there. You could then just sin and sin and wait around until the last day (if you survived) before Christ's return and then repent and be good. Based on my understanding of the Bible, I just don't think it works like that.

And whoever said that we must suffer through the Tribulation to be purified?, or to do good works in it to get saved?

Ephesians 2:7-9
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What about everyone who has died already who didn't suffer any hardships at all? By some people's definition, they are not saved because they have suffered no great tribulation. That just doesn't make any sense. Jesus said that we would be delivered from the time and hour of God's judgment to "those who dwell on the earth." His great judgment is for those who have rejected Jesus, not for His children. Satan has given Christians plenty of tribulation over the years, and continues to do so even today.

[link to www.persecution.com]

Revelation 3:10 (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That is the 'Blessed Hope!'

Titus 2:13 (KJV)
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Maranatha!

Peace.

[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.raptureme.com]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to raptureforums.com]
[link to www.raptureforums.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 65185852


Well done! But you'll get nothing but hate for posting it, which you probably already know.
NewtonsOwn  (OP)

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12/01/2014 11:30 PM
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
OP,

NO,

Why do you think it is so very incredibly bad,

not to mention FALSE DOCTRINE!

that anyone believes they MIGHT!

meet Jesus Christ

on His timetable, clock, calendar...

MAYBE 3 1/2 OR EVEN 7 YEARS

before YOU do...


Why is that so bad???
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56274529


I wrote out a response to your question and it will not let me post it. I've tried over and over again and it simply will not let me. Study Luke 17, 20-37. Those that are taken first are taken to die, in Jesus Christ's own words. That's why these verses are important. Can you not see that? What if the pre tribulation rapture is false doctrine setting people up into thinking they are being raptured when they are actually being taken to their deaths? Can you seriously not see how this could be a problem?
Anonymous Coward
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NewtonsOwn  (OP)

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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture View

When dealing with doctrinal issues, sometimes some truths are right there in the Bible in front of our noses, and it's easy for us to understand them. Other truths are more challenging and require us to look at the whole chapter, book, or the whole bible in order to fully grasp the concepts. When any one verse dealing with a particular doctrinal issue appears to stand apart from other similar truths, we should suspect that there may be an interpretational or possibly a translational issue involved that needs further research. I believe the doctrine of the rapture is one such difficult truth. Below I have presented my beliefs on the Pre-Trib rapture backed up by research and numerous bible verses.

The word 'rapture' is not listed in the English bible. But it is listed in the Latin Vulgate bible, written by Jerome in the early 400's AD. The word there is 'raeptius' or 'rapturo' , which translated into English means 'rapture'. It is found here in the English translation of the bible:

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be *caught up* together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In English bibles, 'raeptius' or 'rapturo' is transliterated into 'caught up'. That happens sometimes during the translation process to try to communicate the point more familiarly.

The original Thessalonian manuscripts however were written in Greek. There were actually no 'English' words at all in the original bibles, including the word 'bible' itself. And the original Greek word for 'rapture' is listed in English script as 'harpazo', which means 'to rapture up into the air', or to 'snatch away' quickly.

It was this original Greek term 'harpazo' that Jerome later translated into Latin as 'raeptius' and 'rapturo', which was later translated into English as 'rapture'. These terms all mean the same thing: 'to be caught up'.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]
[link to www.raptureready.com]

To be raptured is the only real form of ascension, where God ascends the person instead of the person ascending himself. One does not achieve ascension into heaven by one's own efforts. Rather ascension is the free gift of God for those who believe in Yeshua(Jesus) as their Saviour and Messiah.

Below are some reasons I believe the Pre-Tribulational Rapture doctrine is likely to be the most Biblically accurate view:

1. Imminency. We're supposed to look, watch, and wait for Jesus' imminent return. Nothing has to happen before Jesus returns for us. (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thes. 1:10; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; 1 Peter 1:13; Jude 21)
The non-Pre-Trib positions ALL require certain things to happen 1st before Jesus can return. Things like the Antichrist's appearance and 7 yr peace treaty (confirming the covenant) with Israel, the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount right on or next to the Muslim Dome of the Rock, the 7 Seals & Trumpets & Bowls/Vials of Judgment, etc. These things destroy imminency.

[link to www.oxfordbiblechurch.co.uk]

2. Dispensation of the Tribulation. The Bible states that Daniel's 70th Week/Tribulation/Great Tribulation/Time of Jacob's Trouble/Day of the Lord/Wrath of God are all things related to God's dealing with Israel getting ready to restore it back to His grace. (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Ezek. 20:22-44; 22:13-22) This is not a time for the Church, but a time for "those who dwell on the earth"- meaning non-Christians. (Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14; 17:2, 8)

3. Dispensation of the Church. The Church is promised to be taken up to the Father's House in heaven. (John 14:1-3 Compare this verse with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) How can that be if the Church remains here on earth thru the 2nd Coming? Going up to meet Jesus in the air at the moment He's coming down to finish off the Antichrist and his armies is not the same as the Church going up to heaven. There is no mention of Jesus going back to heaven in the Bible after His 2nd Coming. And I don't think He's going to open heaven and come down with all His angels just to pick up the Church in the air, then do a mid-flight U-turn & go back up to heaven. Then grab some horses and linens for the Church. Then do another U-turn and come back immediately to finish off the Antichrist. The Bible doesn't say that.

Also the Church is a Mystery. (Eph. 3:1-13; 2:11-22) That means a new Truth has just been revealed. The Old Testament prophets knew nothing about it or it's role in God's plan. But they did know a lot about the Tribulation period. This is further evidence that the two ages: the Old Testament Israel era & the New Testament Church era will not overlap. Right now, the Jews and Gentiles are co-mingled in the Church, (Eph. 2-3) but this can't be when you look at God's 70 Weeks program for Israel in Daniel. The two must be separated prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week, which is the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation.

The Church has also been promised deliverance from the TIME of God's wrath. That means, "out of the time period" of the Tribulation. (1 Thes. 1:9-10; 5:9; Rev. 3:10)

4. Time Gap Needed. A time period is needed in heaven to handle some things that will take place with the Church after the rapture.

The Judgment Seat of Christ (or 'Bema' in Greek) needs to happen to Christians in the Church in heaven before they return with Jesus to the Battle of Armageddon. (2 Corinthians 5:10) This is when they get their rewards for good Christian service (or not.)

The Bride of Christ (the true Assembly(Church) has to be in heaven to get ready for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7-10) as I mentioned earlier. They can't do this if they don't go up to heaven before the 2nd Coming.

The 24 Elders around the Throne in heaven appear to be very representative of the Church. If this is so, the Church must be in heaven prior to the opening of the 1st Seal of the Scroll of the Tribulation- the opening kick-off, if you will. (Revelation 4:1-5:14) In the New Testament, the elders represent the Church. (Acts 15:6; 20:28) In the Old Testament, the elders were always 24 in number, and appointed by King David to represent the entire priesthood. In Jesus' new Millennial Kingdom, Christians will assume the title of the Priesthood. (Revelation 20:6)

Where are all the mortals? If all the Christians are raptured up at the 2nd Coming of Christ, who will be left to re-populate the earth during the Millennial Kingdom? All the bad guys will be gone because of the Battle of Armageddon and the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment. Raptured Christians will have immortal bodies and will no longer pro-create. (sorry) But the Bible clearly states that there will be mortal Christians who survived the cataclysm and who would carry on mortal life on earth. (Isa. 65:20-25). And, the Wheat & Tares/Sheep & Goats Judgment would also be impossible if all the good guys were already raptured. There would be no need for a separation of the two groups of mortals. This is an impossible situation for the Post-Tribulation Rapture proponents.

5. The Presence of the Holy Spirit. The 'man of lawlessness'/Antichrist/Beast is said to be held back for now. (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12) The 'restrainer of evil'/Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) is at work in the Church right now, and His presence in Christians will leave with the Church in the Pre-Trib rapture. This will then free the Antichrist to unleash his demonic power on the world right after that, which is the first Seal of Judgment to be opened in heaven after the rapture. The Pre-Trib view is the only view that can work here.

6. Here are some comparisons between the Rapture & the 2nd Coming:

Rapture: is a translation (a supernatural changing of living mortal human bodies into immortal bodies) & resurrection (of the dead Christians) coming where the Lord comes FOR His Church/Bride (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) and taking her to His Father's House in heaven. (John 14:3)
2nd Coming: Jesus is coming WITH his saints/Church/Bride to set up His Millennial Kingdom on earth for 1000 yrs. (Rev. 19; Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31)

Rapture: is a 'Mystery', a newly revealed truth (1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 1:26) not known to the Old Testament prophets, and making it a separate event from anything they have foreseen. The New Testament talks about the Rapture of the Church and the 2nd Coming.
2nd Coming: was predicted in the Old Testament. (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4) The Old Testament of Israel just talks about the 2nd Coming. That is what they saw in prophecy, and that is what Israel in the End Times will see in person.

More comparisons between the two:

Rapture: Translation of all believers
2nd Coming: No translation of anyone

Rapture: Translated saints go up to heaven
2nd Coming: Translated saints return to earth

Rapture: Earth is not judged at that time
2nd Coming: Earth is judged and righteousness is restored

Rapture: Imminent and sign-less
2nd Coming: Follows exact signs and days according to
Daniel and Revelation prior to.

Rapture: Is for Believers (true Christians) only
2nd Coming: Is for everyone

Rapture: Happens before the Day of Wrath
2nd Coming: Concludes the Day of Wrath

Rapture: Has no reference to Satan
2nd Coming: Satan is bound up for 1000 yrs.

Rapture: Jesus comes in the air only
2nd Coming: Jesus comes down to the earth

Rapture: Only Christians see Him
2nd Coming: Everyone sees Him

Rapture: Tribulation then begins thereafter
2nd Coming: Millennial Kingdom then begins

7. Practical Results of a Pre-Trib Rapture. Some people think the Pre-Tribbers have illusions of escapism that will destroy their witness and faith if the Pre-Trib Rapture doesn't play out. They think Pre-Tribbers don't care about anything or anyone because they think they have a 'Get out of Jail Free' card for the Tribulation. However, they might not realize that Jesus will reward Christians for good service at the Judgment Seat of Christ later in heaven after the rapture. If there is no good Christian service, there may be little or no rewards waiting for them after the rapture.

The fact that Jesus could return today for us should be a good motivator for living a good Christian life and doing good works for Christ.

Also, knowing that loved ones: friends and family, who aren't Christians will be left behind after the rapture to face the coming cataclysm of the Great Tribulation should be enough to motivate them to try to lead as many people as possible to Christ before it's too late.

If the Pre-Wrath or Mid-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation Rapture view was accurate, a simple study of Daniel's 70th Week would then show you exactly when Jesus is returning for the 2nd Coming. All you have to do is note when the Antichrist's 7 year peace treaty with Israel (confirmation of the covenant) is signed, or note just when the Antichrist's abomination of desolation in the new Jewish Temple happens, and you can compute the exact day of our Lord's 2nd Coming. No imminency there. No need to always live a righteous life there. You could then just sin and sin and wait around until the last day (if you survived) before Christ's return and then repent and be good. Based on my understanding of the Bible, I just don't think it works like that.

And whoever said that we must suffer through the Tribulation to be purified?, or to do good works in it to get saved?

Ephesians 2:7-9
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What about everyone who has died already who didn't suffer any hardships at all? By some people's definition, they are not saved because they have suffered no great tribulation. That just doesn't make any sense. Jesus said that we would be delivered from the time and hour of God's judgment to "those who dwell on the earth." His great judgment is for those who have rejected Jesus, not for His children. Satan has given Christians plenty of tribulation over the years, and continues to do so even today.

[link to www.persecution.com]

Revelation 3:10 (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That is the 'Blessed Hope!'

Titus 2:13 (KJV)
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Maranatha!

Peace.

[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.raptureme.com]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to www.gotquestions.org]
[link to raptureforums.com]
[link to www.raptureforums.com]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 65185852


Well done! But you'll get nothing but hate for posting it, which you probably already know.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20545539


Nobody is posting hate here friend, stop being dramatic. My threads are open to ALL opinions and you and everyone else will be treated with respect and love by me. I can only speak for myself, but I have not vilified anyone for their beliefs. Beliefs are sacred territory to me and all are entitled to believe as they will, nor do I try to force my beliefs on anyone, so stop with the victim mentality, ok?
Anonymous Coward
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12/01/2014 11:40 PM
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
What if the pre tribulation rapture is false doctrine setting people up into thinking they are being raptured when they are actually being taken to their deaths? Can you seriously not see how this could be a problem?
 Quoting: NewtonsOwn


This has been addressed a million times (and you didn't answer the question anyway):

Jesus will NOT ask people whether they want to go.
Jesus will NOT tell people to board a spaceship.
Jesus will NOT come down to earth at the Rapture.

Now tell us how it's "dangerous" to believe that Jesus will SNATCH US UP INTO THE AIR without waiting for us to make a last-minute decision. The angels DRAGGED LOT AGAINST HIS WILL out of Sodom, and this is one of the incidents Jesus used to describe the sudden, unanticipated SNATCHING of the righteous.

What part of "this won't be something we have to choose or figure out" isn't making sense to you?

What part of "sudden" and "involuntary" isn't clear?

Who is raptured depends on who is already saved. Nothing else. We either belong to Jesus or we don't. That is the sole factor of who is raptured. It has NOTHING to do with how righteous we are or how prepared we are. NOTHING!

We will be TAKEN BY FORCE when the real Jesus comes. Anyone who is told to choose to go somewhere should know that isn't the real Jesus.

One more time:

How can it be "dangerous" to hope for Jesus TAKING US SUDDENLY BY FORCE when only an impostor would tell us to choose whether or not to go somewhere?

Is this getting through yet?

And "what if" YOU are wrong? What if Jesus comes and finds you looking for the Antichrist and "beating your fellow servants" who simply took Him at his word? Now which teaching is dangerous?
Anonymous Coward
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12/01/2014 11:50 PM
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
Jesus will NOT ask people whether they want to go.
Jesus will NOT tell people to board a spaceship.
Jesus will NOT come down to earth at the Rapture.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20545539


What's your plan B when none of that happens and there is an angel in spiritual body that looks like a long passed on relative standing directly in front of you claiming he's come to take you to Christ?
Doometropolis

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12/01/2014 11:53 PM
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
What if the pre tribulation rapture is false doctrine setting people up into thinking they are being raptured when they are actually being taken to their deaths? Can you seriously not see how this could be a problem?
 Quoting: NewtonsOwn


This has been addressed a million times (and you didn't answer the question anyway):

Jesus will NOT ask people whether they want to go.
Jesus will NOT tell people to board a spaceship.
Jesus will NOT come down to earth at the Rapture.

Now tell us how it's "dangerous" to believe that Jesus will SNATCH US UP INTO THE AIR without waiting for us to make a last-minute decision. The angels DRAGGED LOT AGAINST HIS WILL out of Sodom, and this is one of the incidents Jesus used to describe the sudden, unanticipated SNATCHING of the righteous.

What part of "this won't be something we have to choose or figure out" isn't making sense to you?

What part of "sudden" and "involuntary" isn't clear?

Who is raptured depends on who is already saved. Nothing else. We either belong to Jesus or we don't. That is the sole factor of who is raptured. It has NOTHING to do with how righteous we are or how prepared we are. NOTHING!

We will be TAKEN BY FORCE when the real Jesus comes. Anyone who is told to choose to go somewhere should know that isn't the real Jesus.

One more time:

How can it be "dangerous" to hope for Jesus TAKING US SUDDENLY BY FORCE when only an impostor would tell us to choose whether or not to go somewhere?

Is this getting through yet?

And "what if" YOU are wrong? What if Jesus comes and finds you looking for the Antichrist and "beating your fellow servants" who simply took Him at his word? Now which teaching is dangerous?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20545539


Poor hardheaded lost soul.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


I wonder why the two witnesses have to stay to the very end of this age.
Shouldn't they had been saved?
Why would God leave them there?
Do you think they will receive time an a half or double time
Oh wait Thats right, We have to stay in order to be saved.
Just like Matthew and Mark said Jesus said.

Last Edited by Doometropolis on 12/01/2014 11:56 PM
Anonymous Coward
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12/01/2014 11:59 PM
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
Funny how Christians can't even agree upon certain matters amongst themselves.

And you want all of us to join your cult?

chuckle

And why is the Bible so vague? Shouldn't it be straightforward and plain as day to understand?
Why would God want Christians to argue amongst themselves?

Poor instructional manual, that's for sure.
No company would want to use something like that.

Like, for instance, if a car manufacturer would write an instructional manual in the same style as the Bible, it would be disregarded and thrown away instantaneously.

:chuckcle:
Doometropolis

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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
Funny how Christians can't even agree upon certain matters amongst themselves.

And you want all of us to join your cult?

chuckle

And why is the Bible so vague? Shouldn't it be straightforward and plain as day to understand?
Why would God want Christians to argue amongst themselves?

Poor instructional manual, that's for sure.
No company would want to use something like that.

Like, for instance, if a car manufacturer would write an instructional manual in the same style as the Bible, it would be disregarded and thrown away instantaneously.

:chuckcle:
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 65590103


If you do not have the answer already, I am sure there are some reasons for this not being applicable.

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. ohyeah

Last Edited by Doometropolis on 12/02/2014 12:04 AM
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
Funny how Christians can't even agree upon certain matters amongst themselves.

And you want all of us to join your cult?

chuckle

And why is the Bible so vague? Shouldn't it be straightforward and plain as day to understand?
Why would God want Christians to argue amongst themselves?

Poor instructional manual, that's for sure.
No company would want to use something like that.

Like, for instance, if a car manufacturer would write an instructional manual in the same style as the Bible, it would be disregarded and thrown away instantaneously.

:chuckcle:
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 65590103


You are saved by faith in Christ......turning your life over to Him. That is all that an unbeliever needs to know.


Then......after someone becomes a child of God.......God will help them to comprehend the Scriptures.


Satan is not going to target the false religions.....as he is the author of those belief systems. Therefore, Moslems, Hindus, etc. will appear to be highly united in their beliefs.


In addition, only a small fraction of those who identify themselves as Christians are truly in Christ. You have to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit to be truly saved.
NewtonsOwn  (OP)

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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
In the last days, in which we are currently living, he who seeks to save his life will lose it and he who seeks to lose his life will save it.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
Jesus will NOT ask people whether they want to go.
Jesus will NOT tell people to board a spaceship.
Jesus will NOT come down to earth at the Rapture.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20545539


What's your plan B when none of that happens and there is an angel in spiritual body that looks like a long passed on relative standing directly in front of you claiming he's come to take you to Christ?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24908410


Read my words again.

What part of being SNATCHED involuntarily means I need a plan B? Since the real Jesus will SNATCH instead of invite, there is no need for a plan B. There will be NO invitation by anyone to "take me to Christ". JESUS HIMSELF will SNATCH us up to meet him.

What will YOU do for a plan B when Jesus snatches you away while you're beating your fellow servants over the timing of His return?
Anonymous Coward
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
We will go through tribulation, but not wrath. Give us your scriptures that shows the church suffering through the wrath judgments.
 Quoting: javierruizleon


We will go through tribulation, but not wrath. Give us your scriptures that shows the church suffering through the wrath judgments.
 Quoting: javierruizleon


Concerning the wrath of God...

it's a mop-up operation. How do I know

"they were destroyed by the very brightness of HIS coming"

The tribulation is man-made.. the banker's pathological dreams and desires. Slavery, wars, genocides etc. has been their cup of tea..most often using their blame-deflection creations.

The funding of Scofield's penetration into Christian doctrine was by one Felix Untermeyer..one of the anti
Christ tribe. Search it out and understand Scofield's chiel disciple founded the Dallas Theological Seminary. This is where the worship of the carnal Jews came from in our modern age.

The pre-trib nonsense, as I understand it..was demonic channeling by a Mary McDonald in the late 1800's. It was popularized by John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. The liars talk about an early Christian preaching it because they know the new "lost sheep of Israel" will not search out the actual writings.

Catholicism is probably the first blame deflection creation. It has been used to besmirch the name of Christ throughout the centuries. The carnal Judaics were lost and followed more of the Babylonian Talmud than the Torah. They are those who whispered in Nero's ear. It is also probable that his cheif sorcerer (Simon from the book of Acts) is the Peter that went to Rome.I He was called Father Simon-the Roman word for father is "Pater" making him "Simon Pater." These are those who capitalized the name Church and applied it to the Ecclesia of Christ.

The Old Testament literally happened but it was written by a Spirit God and it is interpreted metaphorically. When you see Israel think the born again of Christ If you are born again you are the remnant of Israel. The ecclesia is the true Israel of God.
anonymous
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12/02/2014 09:41 AM
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
We will go through tribulation, but not wrath. Give us your scriptures that shows the church suffering through the wrath judgments.
 Quoting: javierruizleon


We will go through tribulation, but not wrath. Give us your scriptures that shows the church suffering through the wrath judgments.
 Quoting: javierruizleon


Concerning the wrath of God...

it's a mop-up operation. How do I know

"they were destroyed by the very brightness of HIS coming"

The tribulation is man-made.. the banker's pathological dreams and desires. Slavery, wars, genocides etc. has been their cup of tea..most often using their blame-deflection creations.

The funding of Scofield's penetration into Christian doctrine was by one Felix Untermeyer..one of the anti
Christ tribe. Search it out and understand Scofield's chiel disciple founded the Dallas Theological Seminary. This is where the worship of the carnal Jews came from in our modern age.

The pre-trib nonsense, as I understand it..was demonic channeling by a Mary McDonald in the late 1800's. It was popularized by John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. The liars talk about an early Christian preaching it because they know the new "lost sheep of Israel" will not search out the actual writings.

Catholicism is probably the first blame deflection creation. It has been used to besmirch the name of Christ throughout the centuries. The carnal Judaics were lost and followed more of the Babylonian Talmud than the Torah. They are those who whispered in Nero's ear. It is also probable that his cheif sorcerer (Simon from the book of Acts) is the Peter that went to Rome.I He was called Father Simon-the Roman word for father is "Pater" making him "Simon Pater." These are those who capitalized the name Church and applied it to the Ecclesia of Christ.

The Old Testament literally happened but it was written by a Spirit God and it is interpreted metaphorically. When you see Israel think the born again of Christ If you are born again you are the remnant of Israel. The ecclesia is the true Israel of God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 56870941


One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched.

With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture.
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.

 Quoting: anonymous 64946684


MacDonald's "vision" was, if anything, a POST-TRIB teaching. It's the post-tribbers who get their theology from MacDonald. I defy anyone to prove that MacDonald said anything close to a pre-trib rapture.
Anonymous Coward
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12/02/2014 07:21 PM
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
What if...
 Quoting: NewtonsOwn


This has been addressed a million times (and you didn't answer the question anyway):

Jesus will NOT ask people whether they want to go.
Jesus will NOT tell people to board a spaceship.
Jesus will NOT come down to earth at the Rapture.

Now tell us how it's "dangerous" to believe that Jesus will SNATCH US UP INTO THE AIR without waiting for us to make a last-minute decision. The angels DRAGGED LOT AGAINST HIS WILL out of Sodom, and this is one of the incidents Jesus used to describe the sudden, unanticipated SNATCHING of the righteous.

What part of "this won't be something we have to choose or figure out" isn't making sense to you?

What part of "sudden" and "involuntary" isn't clear?

Who is raptured depends on who is already saved. Nothing else. We either belong to Jesus or we don't. That is the sole factor of who is raptured. It has NOTHING to do with how righteous we are or how prepared we are. NOTHING!

We will be TAKEN BY FORCE when the real Jesus comes. Anyone who is told to choose to go somewhere should know that isn't the real Jesus.

One more time:

How can it be "dangerous" to hope for Jesus TAKING US SUDDENLY BY FORCE when only an impostor would tell us to choose whether or not to go somewhere?

Is this getting through yet?

And "what if" YOU are wrong? What if Jesus comes and finds you looking for the Antichrist and "beating your fellow servants" who simply took Him at his word? Now which teaching is dangerous?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20545539


Jesus will NOT ask people whether they want to go.
Jesus will NOT tell people to board a spaceship.
Jesus will NOT come down to earth at the Rapture.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20545539


What's your plan B when none of that happens and there is an angel in spiritual body that looks like a long passed on relative standing directly in front of you claiming he's come to take you to Christ?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 24908410


Read my words again.

What part of being SNATCHED involuntarily means I need a plan B? Since the real Jesus will SNATCH instead of invite, there is no need for a plan B. There will be NO invitation by anyone to "take me to Christ". JESUS HIMSELF will SNATCH us up to meet him.

What will YOU do for a plan B when Jesus snatches you away while you're beating your fellow servants over the timing of His return?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 20545539
Anonymous Coward
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12/02/2014 07:31 PM
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
No Pre-Trib, Mid Trib, or Post Trib.


Why? Because the term "Tribulation Period" is a man-made invention. It is not in Scripture.....and should not be used.


All that you have that defines the final 7 years is Daniel's 70th week.......and the world could quietly pass into it without even knowing it.


The angels will catch up God's children just prior to God's wrath.........the 7th Seal trumpet and bowl judgments......which comprise the final one to two years of Daniel's 70th week.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 65369908


Daniel's Last Week of 7 Years will begin in September 2015!

The Rapture will occur BEFORE then!

Thread: DANIEL'S 70 [490 YEARS] WEEK PROPHECY FINALLY UNLOCKED!
 Quoting: INTHELORDSNAME


You do not know that. You believe that. You think that.

Both of you.
Anonymous Coward
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12/02/2014 07:33 PM
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Re: The Pre-tribulation Rapture is Jesuit authored FALSE DOCTRINE!
Your opinion may prove right. Your opinion might be wrong.

The other guy might be right.

You are not perfect.

You do not have perfect understanding.

You are free to your opinion.

Please explain it well.

You do not know.

He does not know.

I do not know.

We believe.





GLP