The Word of the Lord came to Jeremiah

No they didn't think they were God. I am arguing that this so called Angel of God, is most likely God a theophany of Jesus, since you like those words.

So? A messenger is a messenger. Jehovah's witnesses agrees with you. At least they acknowledge YHWH.

Last Edited by Monotheism on 01/17/2016 05:38 PM

I am not interested in Jehovahs witnesses. I acknowledge God just fine. The true nature of God is what the thread is about. That is where we have some disagreement.

The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

The Lord appeared to Abraham as 1 of 3 men.

No, you don't acknowledge God just fine. And you're not making a whole lot of sense either. Are you interested in learning or listening to others at all? Seems I'm repeating myself to you all the time. So Jesus is an angel? Ok fine, he's still not YHWH.

Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him.

“There, in the tent,” he said.

10Then one of them said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.”

Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. 11Abraham and Sarah were already very old, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. 12So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, “After I am worn out and my lord is old, will I now have this pleasure?”

13Then the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ 14Is anything too hard for the Lord? I will return to you at the appointed time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”


This is no ordinary man speaking to Abraham, He is the Lord, but looks like a man. Kinda like another man some time later.

Ok, we make some progress, so you admit Jesus existed before he was born.

It doesn't say "the LORD" it says YHWH. And the angel of YHWH is interchangeably referred to as just YHWH in several passages, because he acts and speaks in His behalf. And we already know a fact that Jesus is not YHWH.

Last Edited by Monotheism on 01/17/2016 05:48 PM

No, I don't, but it's irrelevant to the identity of YHWH. And God is what's important to me.

Its very relevant because Jesus is God, or He isn't. All these passages point to God even in the OT coming in human form to visit people.

God came to the patriarchs are talked to them, and apparently He took the form of a human. We have God Almighty that resides in the heavenlies, and we have God that sometimes leaves the heavenlies to walk around on this planet, and when He does, He looks like a man.

I have already given you scriptural evidence proving he's not. Why are you actively seeking to pervert the truth about God with such fervour? Make up your mind, is he an angel or God?

And angels are described as anthropomorphic. The angel of YHWH, is often interchangeably referred to as just YHWH, it's the principle of agency, the angel is a messenger.

Last Edited by Monotheism on 01/17/2016 06:03 PM

And Jesus is clearly not the Father. Which makes your theory even more ridiculous.

Last Edited by Monotheism on 01/17/2016 06:02 PM

Jesus is the Son, not the Father. Thought you knew that.

And the Father is YHWH. The God you refuse to acknowledge. Or as Jesus put it:

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" John 20:17

"You are my witnesses," declares YHWH, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. Isaiah 43:10

You were shown these things so that you might know that YHWH is God; besides him there is no other. Deuteronomy 4:35

Acknowledge and take to heart this day that YHWH is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.
Deuteronomy 4:39

I am YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, Isaiah 45:5

I acknowledge God, would it be better if I said YHWH. I guess I don't feel the need to use those letters, God works just fine for me.

Jesus said other things like:
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will knowb my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me

But Jesus is not YHWH. That's the point. You using the most holy and exalted name in such a blasphemous way still won't make it so.

You seems very focused in saying that I only believe in Jesus. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 3 different manifestations of the one true God. I don't pretend to understand the totality of Gods nature.

Yes? Didn't you just affirm that the Father is not the son? It would be easier debating you if you didn't contradict yourself every five minutes. The Greek word translated as see, horao, also has the figurative meaning to see or mentally percieve, which is the meaning in this context; the context it about knowing the Father through the son and the words manifest. Something the Pharisees failed to do.

I fail to see the contradiction. Jesus basically told them when the see Him, they see the Father. They are like one.

That's modalism. And equally false. The Father is YHWH. The spirit is the spirit of YHWH, not a separate person. And the anointed servent-son and prophet of YHWH is not YHWH.

It's a figurative word. And now you're arguing modalism as of a sudden? From trinity to modalism in 60 seconds.

I don't really care what modalism is. Maybe its just an attempt to describe the nature of God. I really don't care about the labels either. This is just dogma.

If you could admit that Jesus was the only way to the Father, then we might be able to agree on something. This you cannot admit.

Whatever the nature of God, Jesus is His plan to save humanity from its sin and suffering.

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified HIS SERVANT JESUS. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. Acts 3:13

That's a wrap for me. Good night.

Good night.

I knew you would say that. If you don't even know who the Father is how can you expect to enter the kingdom?

Last Edited by Monotheism on 01/17/2016 06:37 PM