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Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 70663772
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12/23/2017 03:44 PM
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Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
William White once wrote...

"Serotonergics are the 'Ana' side of Chaos, dissociatives the 'Kata' side of Chaos (Chaos being the essential driving energy behind reality, if you will)."

...and my psychonautical journeys of five of the seven most potent natural and man-made seas have led me to believe he came to a profound realization.

Which begs the question that is the title of this thread.

I need to find a way to make a psilocybin variety also produce muscimol or an amanita variety also produce psilocybin. Or maybe Ibogaine or S. Divinorum that also produces psilocybin.

If ever there were a legacy I would give to this place, I think that would be it.


Granted, there are some that could be arguable exceptions, notably Ibogaine and Salvia, being potent kappa-opioid agonists and SSRIs. The serotonergic action is indirect, though, and is decidedly different from direct, potent 5HT agonism.

These being the closest thing to natural psychoactives in the spectrum I'm looking at, though, it makes me wonder what kind of healing potential would be present.

I already have a guinea pig, being myself ofc, but what I really need is someone who can follow everything I'm speaking of and help me understand more than I already do.

I'm not sure which dissociative route would pose the least amount of risk when combined with potent 5HT agonism. Would using GABA agonism, NMDA antagonism, or kappa opioid agonism for potent dissociation come with the lowest risk of serotonin syndrome?

I've looked in the past before, and found it to be so fringe of a speculative experience to embark on that all I have come across is fool-hardy party har-har types having little understanding of what they're messing with and just messing around to mess around, usually with no self-introspection done, sometimes painful psychological experiences that leaves them with either little recall or warning to not do the same thing.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/23/2017 04:05 PM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
Dammit, Juan Star, I thought you had dual PhDs in pharmacology and neurology.

Why you just stop by my thread without saying anything like that... :'(
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/24/2017 01:39 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
bump for the night owl psychonauts and mad scientists

and some little tree artwork I haven't shared yet, just 'cause...
:patches7:
Anonymous Coward
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12/24/2017 01:43 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
administer a serotonergic and a dissociative in the same sitting

problem solved
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/24/2017 03:21 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
administer a serotonergic and a dissociative in the same sitting

problem solved
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75988773


:notmom:

The problem is more complex and your solution doesn't denote the safest route of the three potentials, nor does it answer the question that is the title of the thread.
Anonymous Coward
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12/24/2017 03:26 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
The answer is, cos it’ll blow out your shitter
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/24/2017 03:33 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
The answer is, cos it’ll blow out your shitter
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74869930


the cancer whiz, buzz little glow snout lore spitter
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/29/2017 11:28 PM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
After some further research, I would surmise the NMDA antagonism route of dissociation to be that which holds the greatest risk for neurotoxicity.

So that leaves kappa Opioid (KOR) or GABA agonism.

When it comes to the cortex, the former is concentrated more so in the prefrontal, the latter widespread throughout, so perhaps it's arguable that KOR agonism combined with, in particular, 5HT2a/2c agonism would produce more differentiable, less synergistic effects...
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2017 12:11 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
Did you ever try vodka?
Anonymous Coward
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Bulgaria
12/30/2017 12:18 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
the answer is pretty obvious.
as serotonin controls everything you need to block it to hijack the mind and body.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/30/2017 12:21 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
Did you ever try vodka?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50014795


Interestingly enough, we still don't know precisely what receptor activity is responsible for ethanol's psychoactivity.


That's right - the recreational drug we know the least about is the most legal.
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2017 12:25 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
I see where doctors can order blood tests that measure serotonin levels. If you're worried about serotonin syndrome you can titrate the dose using the blood test.

Might be a good idea to have some diazepam on hand in case you screw up the dose and start freaking the fuck out

You're embarking on a journey that has serious dangers.
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2017 12:30 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
Did you ever try vodka?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50014795


Interestingly enough, we still don't know precisely what receptor activity is responsible for ethanol's psychoactivity.


That's right - the recreational drug we know the least about is the most legal.
 Quoting: Dunecat


The alcohol reduces the surface tension of the water.

It changes the brains water environment so it all works differently.
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2017 12:35 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
Did you hear the one about the guy who had MPD so bad he had to hire a parapsychologists?
rockstar101

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12/30/2017 12:36 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
thats because alcohol goes in the blood.
When the one great scorer comes to write against your name, he writes not that you won or lost but how you played the game.

The stance and stare of a wolf you find yourself alone with will tell you that he is prepared to treat you as you would treat him. Whether that comforts or frightens you, he has told you all you need know about both.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/30/2017 12:45 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
Did you hear the one about the guy who had MPD so bad he had to hire a parapsychologists?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50014795


I'd rather hear about the one who had comorbid BPD and HPPD.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/30/2017 12:46 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
thats because alcohol goes in the blood.
 Quoting: rockstar101


...and the blood goes into the brain...
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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12/30/2017 12:49 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
I see where doctors can order blood tests that measure serotonin levels. If you're worried about serotonin syndrome you can titrate the dose using the blood test.

Might be a good idea to have some diazepam on hand in case you screw up the dose and start freaking the fuck out

You're embarking on a journey that has serious dangers.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76025903


Diazepam isn't a GABA or KOR antagonist, so it's far from an ideal antidote. It could actually make matters worse.


Everyone embarking on the journey of life faces dangers. What differentiates is the level of awareness of them.
Anonymous Coward
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12/30/2017 01:21 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
Did you ever try vodka?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 50014795


Interestingly enough, we still don't know precisely what receptor activity is responsible for ethanol's psychoactivity.


That's right - the recreational drug we know the least about is the most legal.
 Quoting: Dunecat

its a gaba receptor modulator initially, but it has systemic effects from increased membrane fluidity (initial increase in diffuse connectivity followed by increased action potential recovery times due to reduced ion channel effectiveness).
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2018 05:56 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
bump for new eyes
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2018 06:02 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
Why WOULD nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2018 06:22 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
thats because alcohol goes in the blood.
 Quoting: rockstar101


...and the blood goes into the brain...
 Quoting: Dunecat


Does it? Please explain the blood brain barrier.?



.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2018 06:22 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
Why WOULD nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76180141


There is much that nature produces that begs the question, "Why?", but that is not the nature of this thread.

A theorem as answer to your question is implicated in my OP.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2018 06:24 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
thats because alcohol goes in the blood.
 Quoting: rockstar101


...and the blood goes into the brain...
 Quoting: Dunecat


Does it? Please explain the blood brain barrier.?



.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69943055


sigh... the blood-brain barrier does not bar all blood from traveling into the brain - it serves as a filter so that not everything carried in the blood can reach the brain.

Do you know what a stroke is? What long-lasting effects a person suffers when one no longer receives blood flow into one's brain?
Evil_Twin

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01/28/2018 06:29 AM

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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
Nature doen't do anything without reason.
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2018 06:39 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
How many mariwanas you smoke?
Anonymous Coward
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01/28/2018 06:41 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
Why WOULD nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76180141


Exactly.

WHY would one natural thing NEED to produce both effects?
Answer that. Then find a "natural item" that has that need or desire.

It will involve either evolution or genetic manipulation.

Or just find one pill ( mushroom, tree bark, etc) that is a potent dissociative.

Then find a second pill ( or natural item) that is a potent serotonergic agonist.
---

Benzodiazepines are a dissociative.

Many things are serotengic. Triptans, sumatriptans, relpax, ssri's, dextromethorpan.

Benzos are part of the treatment for serotonin syndrome.

[link to www.sciencedirect.com (secure)]
NowIhavetothinkofanam​e

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01/28/2018 06:43 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
I see where doctors can order blood tests that measure serotonin levels. If you're worried about serotonin syndrome you can titrate the dose using the blood test.

Might be a good idea to have some diazepam on hand in case you screw up the dose and start freaking the fuck out

You're embarking on a journey that has serious dangers.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76025903


I didn't know any of that, thanks AC.

--------

OP; drugs are bad. Why break your best asset?
NowIhavetothinkofanameohnoithurts
It's all bull!
Nevertheless, the ruler is not truly wise who cannot discern evils before they develop themselves, and this is a faculty given to few. Niccolo Machiavelli
Karma is funny, people who kick dogs usually get bitten.
If someone doesn't add value to your life, then that someone shouldn't be a part of it.
You can always trust people to do whatever is in their own interests.
It is certain wastelands will be brought under cultivation.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2018 08:23 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
How many mariwanas you smoke?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76168544


None since last April. Over the course of the preceding 25 years, a lot.
Anonymous Coward (OP)
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01/28/2018 08:35 AM
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Re: Why doesn't nature produce potent dissociation and potent serotonergic agonism simultaneously?
OP; drugs are bad. Why break your best asset?
 Quoting: NowIhavetothinkofaname


Why do our bodies naturally produce lots of drugs, then?

Why do we synthesize the most powerful hallucinogenic tryptamine within our own bodies?


Our best asset relies on drugs to function properly.

I question whether the functional limits we are taught it to have are based on truth or not.

I question what might happen if we were to remind our best asset of what it once was capable of doing. Our DNA is trained through experience in life, and we pass on our trained DNA to our offspring. We do not pass on the DNA we were born with to our offspring.

The blueprint of how to use drugs within our own bodies, then, is decided as much in part by our own experiences as it is with the knowledge we were born with.





GLP