Why haven't the Star Constellations changed in thousands of years? | |
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Anonymous Coward User ID: 76517820 Chile 05/14/2018 11:08 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Hey, think about this....If the Earth is spinning at 1038 mph, the Earth revolves around the Sun at 67,000 mph, the Earth, Sun and other planets are spiraling 500,000 mph around the Milky Way and the entire Milky Way is shooting through space at 670,000,000 mph. Why haven't the Star Constellations changed in thousands of years? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76340243 OP: Watch the first 10 minutes of this: |
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Jeff_43
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Doommincus Maximus
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Guess Who2
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Anonymous Coward User ID: 53978921 United States 05/14/2018 11:26 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | when you drive down the road at 70mph, the street signs go by fast but the mountain 10 miles away moves very slow. Quoting: Jeff_43 Think of that on a universal sized scale. Good analogy. actually a shitty analogy as everything is "apparently" spinning changing perspective & the visible spectrum considerably within minutes and hours yet alone years. |
Dr. Deplorable Astromut
Senior Forum Moderator 05/14/2018 11:27 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | They have, it's just very slow and requires accurate measurement to notice it. Lol, so what constellations would that be? The same ones we have now? Because if were moving 483,000 miles per hour pretty sure after the fucking stars would have changed by now, thousands of years ago. Funny how only doom comes from fake ass space. Sheep porn Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73325676 Proper motion is real and can be measured, but it's incredibly slow in human terms. Quite right, proper motion is relative to our movement. Anybody else find it incredibly divine a star can line up to celestial North with all this movement going. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73466979 Here's "all the movement" of Polaris over about a half century of time. It's just barely detectable in old photographic sky surveys. The high resolution measurements of the proper motion of Polaris come from the 2007 reduction of the Hipparcos data: [link to www.aanda.org] The proper motion of Polaris can be independently verified using ground-based telescopes; since proper motion builds up over time, using high resolution images taken decades apart you can see its effect from one image to the next. For example, you can detect the proper motion of Polaris in images from the first and second Palomar Sky Survey that were taken using the same telescope almost 50 years apart. I used the following photographic film plates: Plate XO001 (A2TX) photographed Aug 22, 1952 5:20 UT Astrometrically solved image: [link to nova.astrometry.net] Plate XJ896 (A2NG) photographed Jan 17, 1998 5:12 UT Astrometrically solved image: [link to nova.astrometry.net] The images 46 years apart should have a total motion of Polaris of about 2.1 arcseconds according to the hipparcos data (44.48 x 11.85 mas = combined vector of 46 milliarcseconds per year = 0.046 arcseconds per year * 46 years = 2.1 arcseconds). For diffraction centroiding of Polaris, I measured the intersection of the diffraction spikes to find the position of Polaris in each image: [link to h.dropcanvas.com] [link to h.dropcanvas.com] Zooming in on the difference between the intersection points in the diffraction spikes, and drawing a line between those intersection points, you can see that Polaris has moved about 2 arcseconds between 1952 and 1998, just as expected according to the Hipparcos data. And just as expected, the direction of motion is positive in right ascension and negative in declination (resulting in a higher right ascension value and slightly lower declination value in the 1998 image): [link to h.dropcanvas.com] So yes, Polaris has proper motion and does move over time, but due to the vast distance between our solar system and Polaris it takes years for these motions to become noticeable even in telescopic images at arcsecond resolution. Even over tens of thousands of years that it takes precession to cycle through, it would only move a fraction of a degree. 46 milliarcseconds per year * about 13,0000 years = about 598 arcseconds or 10 arcminutes, about 1/3rd the diameter of the full moon. Even if you could hop through time and go back tens of thousands of years, Polaris would barely seem to move by eye. It's very far away, so much so that even with a relative motion of at least 48,000 mph to our solar system, the motion is too small to see by eye over human time spans. Precession does mean that Polaris has not always been the north star in human history though, but that's due to the earth's axis of rotation, rather than a motion of Polaris itself. Just to further prove the point, here is a catalog of stars measured by Tycho Brahe, published by Johannes Kepler, about 400 years ago. This excel sheet contains the ecliptic coordinates, names, and even correlated HIP designations for each star. The highlighted columns are the ecliptic longitude and latitude in the epoch at which these stars were originally measured, around the year 1600. Quoting: The Gentle Astromut [link to dropcanvas.com] Let's take Arcturus as an example, the brightest star in the constellation Boötes. It's on row 135 in the excel sheet, and accounting for 400 years of precession, those coordinates translate to equatorial coordinates of approximately the following: RA: 214.04 degrees Declination: 19.44 degrees Now, what are the coordinates of Arcturus today? Well the J2000.0 coordinates are the following: RA: 213.9153 Dec: 19.1824 Note, this difference is not from precession, I already accounted for that when converting from ecliptic to equatorial coordinates. This is the actual motion of the star over the last 400 years. Taking the published expected values for the proper motion of Arcturus ( [link to simbad.u-strasbg.fr] ) we can extrapolate the modern coordinates for Arcturus backwards in time to predict what the coordinates should have been 400 years ago back when Tycho and Kepler were doing their work. Here are the coordinates predicted by the proper motion of the star: RA: 214.04 Dec: 19.40 Well, would you look at that, it's almost a perfect match to what Tycho actually measured, to within 4 hundredths of a degree! It's NOT a motion of the entire constellation of Boötes either. Let's take a look at another major star of Boötes, the star Izar: [link to simbad.u-strasbg.fr] As you can see by its HIP number of 72105, Izar is listed on row 128 of my spreadsheet with ecliptic long and lat of 202.4916667 degrees and 40.66666667 degrees respectively. Once again, calculating for 400 years of precession and converting that to equatorial coordinates we get the following: RA: 221.24687 Dec: 27.08932 This star has much lower proper motion than Arcturus, it's not moving as fast, so the difference between Tycho's coordinates and modern coordinates is much smaller. Here are the J2000.0 coordinates of Izar: RA: 221.24674 Dec: 27.07422 The fact that Arcturus has moved by about 0.29 degrees while Izar has barely moved at all means the constellation of Boötes HAS changed its shape in the last 400 years and you CAN see this difference by examining centuries old star catalogs and comparing to the modern positions of the stars. I just did that. |
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Dr. Deplorable Astromut
Senior Forum Moderator 05/14/2018 11:30 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | And yes, I've personally verified the proper motion of Arcturus as well and confirmed that Bootes has slightly changed shaped over the last few decades to a small but telescopically measurable extent. Now, that was Polaris. What about Arcturus? Well here's my data, using the same technique as above, but with an image I took myself just a few days ago on August 3rd, 2017: Quoting: The Gentle Astromut [link to nova.astrometry.net] [link to h.dropcanvas.com] I'm going to use diffraction spike centroiding as before to measure the position of Arcturus relative to the background stars. Here is an image of Arcturus taken on April 17th, 1950 for comparison: [link to nova.astrometry.net] [link to h.dropcanvas.com] Uh oh, problem for your claim, it's not moving in the same direction nor at the same speed as Polaris, not even close. And how does its motion match up with the official figures for its proper motion from Hipparcos? Well, here's the motion from April 1950 until now: [link to h.dropcanvas.com] It traveled -0.02197 degrees in Right Ascension and -0.037151 degrees in declination in that time. Dividing by the number of days between observation (24,581), multiplying by 365.25 days per Julian year, multiplying by 3600 arcseconds per degree and again by 1000 milliarcseconds per arcsecond, we get proper motion figures of -1175 milliarcseconds per year RA, -1987 milliarcseconds per year Declination, in extremely tight agreement with the numbers from Hipparcos: [link to simbad.u-strasbg.fr] Now let's take my numbers and revisit my original post about Arcturus from Tycho's measurements and today's measurements. Just to further prove the point, here is a catalog of stars measured by Tycho Brahe, published by Johannes Kepler, about 400 years ago. This excel sheet contains the ecliptic coordinates, names, and even correlated HIP designations for each star. The highlighted columns are the ecliptic longitude and latitude in the epoch at which these stars were originally measured, around the year 1600. Quoting: The Gentle Astromut [link to dropcanvas.com] Let's take Arcturus as an example, the brightest star in the constellation Boötes. It's on row 135 in the excel sheet, and accounting for 400 years of precession, those coordinates translate to equatorial coordinates of approximately the following: RA: 214.04 degrees Declination: 19.44 degrees Now, what are the coordinates of Arcturus today? Well the J2000.0 coordinates are the following: RA: 213.9153 Dec: 19.1824 Note, this difference is not from precession, I already accounted for that when converting from ecliptic to equatorial coordinates. This is the actual motion of the star over the last 400 years. Taking the published expected values for the proper motion of Arcturus ( [link to simbad.u-strasbg.fr] ) we can extrapolate the modern coordinates for Arcturus backwards in time to predict what the coordinates should have been 400 years ago back when Tycho and Kepler were doing their work. Here are the coordinates predicted by the proper motion of the star: RA: 214.04 Dec: 19.40 Well, would you look at that, it's almost a perfect match to what Tycho actually measured, to within 4 hundredths of a degree! It's NOT a motion of the entire constellation of Boötes either. Let's take a look at another major star of Boötes, the star Izar: [link to simbad.u-strasbg.fr] As you can see by its HIP number of 72105, Izar is listed on row 128 of my spreadsheet with ecliptic long and lat of 202.4916667 degrees and 40.66666667 degrees respectively. Once again, calculating for 400 years of precession and converting that to equatorial coordinates we get the following: RA: 221.24687 Dec: 27.08932 This star has much lower proper motion than Arcturus, it's not moving as fast, so the difference between Tycho's coordinates and modern coordinates is much smaller. Here are the J2000.0 coordinates of Izar: RA: 221.24674 Dec: 27.07422 The fact that Arcturus has moved by about 0.29 degrees while Izar has barely moved at all means the constellation of Boötes HAS changed its shape in the last 400 years and you CAN see this difference by examining centuries old star catalogs and comparing to the modern positions of the stars. I just did that. I warned you yesterday not to push me or I'd whip out Tycho on you, but you didn't listen, you just had to resort to slandering me by calling me a pedo and other crap. So now you get to deal with the fact that I just destroyed your claim completely. Enjoy. Let's substitute my measurements for the proper motion of Arcturus as well as my measurement of its current position, which I found to be the following: RA: 213.90935 degrees Dec: 19.172765 degrees Using my figures for the proper motion and extrapolating back to Tycho's data more than 400 years ago, I predict the coordinates Arcturus should have had when Tycho observed it should have been the following: RA: 214.05 degrees Dec: 19.40 degrees Again, these numbers agree with Tycho's measurements to within a few hundredths of a degree, and they don't come from NASA, they come from my own observation of the star. Arcturus is moving and the constellations ARE changing shape slowly over time. /thread |
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Anonymous Coward User ID: 70732847 United States 05/14/2018 11:40 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | they have, but only by a little. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 47022688 you fail to grasp the immensity of the distances involved. The "distances involved" can never be proven. One must accept there word of these distances because nobody can prove these distances. Sounds like a religion. Ever heard of triangulation? Of course not. |
Dr. Deplorable Astromut
Senior Forum Moderator 05/14/2018 11:43 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | they have, but only by a little. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 47022688 you fail to grasp the immensity of the distances involved. The "distances involved" can never be proven. One must accept there word of these distances because nobody can prove these distances. Sounds like a religion. Wrong. Even with a sufficiently powerful amateur telescope you can measure the parallax in closer stars directly. [link to www.cosmos.esa.int (secure)] |
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Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 76340243 United States 05/14/2018 11:52 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | they have, but only by a little. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 47022688 you fail to grasp the immensity of the distances involved. The "distances involved" can never be proven. One must accept there word of these distances because nobody can prove these distances. Sounds like a religion. Ever heard of triangulation? Of course not. To accept the triangulation of star distances you must believe in the scientific theory of triangulation of star distance measurement. It's a theory and can not be proven. Still sounds like a belief system/religion. |
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Anonymous Coward User ID: 76212761 United States 05/14/2018 11:54 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | they have, but only by a little. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 47022688 you fail to grasp the immensity of the distances involved. The "distances involved" can never be proven. One must accept there word of these distances because nobody can prove these distances. Sounds like a religion. Wrong. Even with a sufficiently powerful amateur telescope you can measure the parallax in closer stars directly. [link to www.cosmos.esa.int (secure)] So Astro, have you come to conclusion things are as Science tells us they are? It's clear you are from their institutions. Yet, you remain here, either to dispel childish myths about the universe we live in, or because you sense there is more to the equation than the scientific truths you defend. I fear your right about everything. Yet, I fear the opposite is true too. |
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1guynAz
User ID: 76226758 United States 05/14/2018 11:58 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | they have, but only by a little. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 47022688 you fail to grasp the immensity of the distances involved. The "distances involved" can never be proven. One must accept there word of these distances because nobody can prove these distances. Sounds like a religion. Ever heard of triangulation? Of course not. To accept the triangulation of star distances you must believe in the scientific theory of triangulation of star distance measurement. It's a theory and can not be proven. Still sounds like a belief system/religion. Uh-oh....what's this? A challenger enters the arena.... Living has taught me one thing; nothing is certain...except salvation through Jesus Christ! |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 76460002 United States 05/14/2018 11:59 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Corresponding to a bright supernova recorded by Chinese astronomers in 1054, the nebula was observed later by English astronomer John Bevis in 1731. Modern understanding that the Crab Nebula was created by a supernova dates to 1921, when Carl Otto Lampland announced he had seen changes in its structure. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 76459274 United States 05/15/2018 12:00 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | they have, but only by a little. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 47022688 you fail to grasp the immensity of the distances involved. The "distances involved" can never be proven. One must accept there word of these distances because nobody can prove these distances. Sounds like a religion. You could test it yourself. But obviously you've already decided it can't be done without trying. |
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Leprechauns
User ID: 76486878 Norway 05/15/2018 12:15 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | they have, but only by a little. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 47022688 you fail to grasp the immensity of the distances involved. The "distances involved" can never be proven. One must accept there word of these distances because nobody can prove these distances. Sounds like a religion. Sadly it is. What do you want from us, monster? And the monster bent down, and said, " I need about tree-fitty." |
Dr. Deplorable Astromut
Senior Forum Moderator 05/15/2018 12:34 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | they have, but only by a little. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 47022688 you fail to grasp the immensity of the distances involved. The "distances involved" can never be proven. One must accept there word of these distances because nobody can prove these distances. Sounds like a religion. Ever heard of triangulation? Of course not. To accept the triangulation of star distances you must believe in the scientific theory of triangulation of star distance measurement. It's a theory and can not be proven. Still sounds like a belief system/religion. Trigonometry is demonstrably true. The problem with people like yourself is that you don't care about facts and you're not open to evidence. Sadly, this isn't the first time I've seen someone openly deny basic trigonometry. In fact I'm even going to have to a video just to prove to people like you that you can in fact use triangulation and trigonometry to measure the physical size of objects based on small angular sizes. Someone literally denied that you can even do that. It's sad, but willfully ignorant tards still find new ways to deny reality. |
Dr. Deplorable Astromut
Senior Forum Moderator 05/15/2018 12:35 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | they have, but only by a little. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 47022688 you fail to grasp the immensity of the distances involved. The "distances involved" can never be proven. One must accept there word of these distances because nobody can prove these distances. Sounds like a religion. Sadly it is. No, it's not. It's testable, verifiable, and true. |