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Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people

 
MaybeTrollingU  (OP)

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06/26/2018 07:31 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
I'm trying to make an intelectual thread, this is not pulpit, this is meant to understand how religious would react. So far, I can only conclude that the reaction is agressive and denial.
Anonymous Coward
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06/26/2018 07:33 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
...


Maybe you didn't read where I rebuked you specifically with scripture for saying that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69639287


Your mistake! I've read the bible cover to cover, many times. I know for sure did it 4 times. And as expected, you are one more unable to think abstractly. Noticing it is very, very common among christians.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU



Matthew 12:37 King James Version (KJV)

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


Hebrews 10:31 King James Version (KJV)

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

REPENT!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 69639287


You're not willing to do the exercise, this is the last post with bible quotes in this thread. If you don't want to or are unable to, just don't say anything.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


Maybe you could do the exercise yourself, op. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on what I asked you about your previous response, but it may have been lost in the shuffle.

Thread: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Anonymous Coward
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06/26/2018 07:35 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
I'm just confused as to which God is the right one..and I've tried the Christian path a few times
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76507967


Maybe the idea of "a" God being the "right" one is the start of all the problems.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11375876


The true God, the highest God, is over and above all religions.
Anonymous Coward
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06/26/2018 07:39 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
I'm just confused as to which God is the right one..and I've tried the Christian path a few times
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76507967


Maybe the idea of "a" God being the "right" one is the start of all the problems.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11375876


The true God, the highest God, is over and above all religions.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76426692


This is what I was getting at with the idea of "a" God being the "right" God. I would say that there is only God and that the religions express this through their various points of view.
MaybeTrollingU  (OP)

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06/26/2018 07:41 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
...


Ok! Thanks for your answer!
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


You are welcome. I notice you seem to be focusing on those replies you feel are somehow "inadequate," yet you jumped over the single response so far that met your "challenge" head on. Once you strip away the that which is not true, what is left? I am.

What are your thoughts on this, since you said you wanted a friendly discussion?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11375876


Sure thing!

Life is what you made of it. It is full of happy, joy, fulfillment, hopes and dreams. Some of your dreams and expectations will be achieved, some will not. Some of your hopes will fade, happiness don't last forever and joy can become boring. Life can suck sometimes. You'll feel depressed, impotent, frustrated, mad, angry, sad, defeated and many other "down" feelings. To cope with that is what makes you thrive or succumb. Humans are obsessed for answering questions. "I don't know" is not enough for most people. Religion offers easy, packed and ready to consume answers to all your problems. Notice, I said RELIGION. To me, religion is a mechanism to cope with the frustration of being ignorant. So people get attached to religion for easy, ready to go answers for problems. But this creates another problem, reality is not even close to what religion describes, I mean the scientific know reality. We know now much more than we did a thousand years ago, religion became irrelevant. This is way too hard for most people to accept, because they made their lives around religion.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


Ok. But may I ask what is in your answer that is different from what others who you see as leaning on easy, ready to go answers? Is there anything in your answer that is no less pre-digested, as it were?

You equate reality with the scientifically known reality. But is this reliable? Yes, we know much more than a thousand years ago, but we also know much more than a thousand months ago, or even a thousand weeks ago. So did your reality change along with it? Is it too hard for you to accept that that which you call reality is ever-changing and therefore cannot be reliably said to be reality at all?

In short, what is it that you can reliably know to be true if all else is a lie?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11375876


My appologies!
I understand your question as in a more philosophical way. This could extend to the "egocentric predicament". This could go VERY long and deep, so I would rather talk about it in a more physical manner.

I consider things using a logical and/or scientific approach. To me, "real" is that I have evidence for.
MaybeTrollingU  (OP)

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06/26/2018 07:41 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Curious fact: Abstract thinking develops in children around the age of 5.
MaybeTrollingU  (OP)

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06/26/2018 07:47 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Thank you very much to whomever pined!
MaybeTrollingU  (OP)

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06/26/2018 07:50 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Again, no preaching, no bible quote. Just play along and answer the question.
Anonymous Coward
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06/26/2018 07:54 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
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You are welcome. I notice you seem to be focusing on those replies you feel are somehow "inadequate," yet you jumped over the single response so far that met your "challenge" head on. Once you strip away the that which is not true, what is left? I am.

What are your thoughts on this, since you said you wanted a friendly discussion?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11375876


Sure thing!

Life is what you made of it. It is full of happy, joy, fulfillment, hopes and dreams. Some of your dreams and expectations will be achieved, some will not. Some of your hopes will fade, happiness don't last forever and joy can become boring. Life can suck sometimes. You'll feel depressed, impotent, frustrated, mad, angry, sad, defeated and many other "down" feelings. To cope with that is what makes you thrive or succumb. Humans are obsessed for answering questions. "I don't know" is not enough for most people. Religion offers easy, packed and ready to consume answers to all your problems. Notice, I said RELIGION. To me, religion is a mechanism to cope with the frustration of being ignorant. So people get attached to religion for easy, ready to go answers for problems. But this creates another problem, reality is not even close to what religion describes, I mean the scientific know reality. We know now much more than we did a thousand years ago, religion became irrelevant. This is way too hard for most people to accept, because they made their lives around religion.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


Ok. But may I ask what is in your answer that is different from what others who you see as leaning on easy, ready to go answers? Is there anything in your answer that is no less pre-digested, as it were?

You equate reality with the scientifically known reality. But is this reliable? Yes, we know much more than a thousand years ago, but we also know much more than a thousand months ago, or even a thousand weeks ago. So did your reality change along with it? Is it too hard for you to accept that that which you call reality is ever-changing and therefore cannot be reliably said to be reality at all?

In short, what is it that you can reliably know to be true if all else is a lie?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11375876


My appologies!
I understand your question as in a more philosophical way. This could extend to the "egocentric predicament". This could go VERY long and deep, so I would rather talk about it in a more physical manner.

I consider things using a logical and/or scientific approach. To me, "real" is that I have evidence for.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


Ok, if you take as real that which you have evidence for, if your evidence changes, does reality change with it?

I am using both a logical and scientific approach, which is why I stated at the start that once you stripped away all the lies of religion in your thought experiment, all that was left was what remained untouched by those lies, the fact of your own existence, I am.

Perhaps that is related to your "egocentric predicament."
MaybeTrollingU  (OP)

User ID: 36524530
Brazil
06/26/2018 08:00 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
...


Sure thing!

Life is what you made of it. It is full of happy, joy, fulfillment, hopes and dreams. Some of your dreams and expectations will be achieved, some will not. Some of your hopes will fade, happiness don't last forever and joy can become boring. Life can suck sometimes. You'll feel depressed, impotent, frustrated, mad, angry, sad, defeated and many other "down" feelings. To cope with that is what makes you thrive or succumb. Humans are obsessed for answering questions. "I don't know" is not enough for most people. Religion offers easy, packed and ready to consume answers to all your problems. Notice, I said RELIGION. To me, religion is a mechanism to cope with the frustration of being ignorant. So people get attached to religion for easy, ready to go answers for problems. But this creates another problem, reality is not even close to what religion describes, I mean the scientific know reality. We know now much more than we did a thousand years ago, religion became irrelevant. This is way too hard for most people to accept, because they made their lives around religion.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


Ok. But may I ask what is in your answer that is different from what others who you see as leaning on easy, ready to go answers? Is there anything in your answer that is no less pre-digested, as it were?

You equate reality with the scientifically known reality. But is this reliable? Yes, we know much more than a thousand years ago, but we also know much more than a thousand months ago, or even a thousand weeks ago. So did your reality change along with it? Is it too hard for you to accept that that which you call reality is ever-changing and therefore cannot be reliably said to be reality at all?

In short, what is it that you can reliably know to be true if all else is a lie?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11375876


My appologies!
I understand your question as in a more philosophical way. This could extend to the "egocentric predicament". This could go VERY long and deep, so I would rather talk about it in a more physical manner.

I consider things using a logical and/or scientific approach. To me, "real" is that I have evidence for.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


Ok, if you take as real that which you have evidence for, if your evidence changes, does reality change with it?

I am using both a logical and scientific approach, which is why I stated at the start that once you stripped away all the lies of religion in your thought experiment, all that was left was what remained untouched by those lies, the fact of your own existence, I am.

Perhaps that is related to your "egocentric predicament."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11375876


Just to clarify, the egocentric predicament, is a psychological/phylosophical study. It deals on the possibility that the whole universe is nothing than a manifestation of my brain, meaning that there is nothing else, except me and my thoughts. It goes way beyond that, but just to summarize.

If evidence changes, then the understanding of reality might change, not the reality itself. Its like discovering a new talent. Suppose someday you find out you're a very good mason(as in laying bricks and making brick walls). Does that change who you are? It might change your behavior and future endeavors, but it will not change you as a whole.
MarPep

User ID: 76711952
United States
06/26/2018 08:03 PM

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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Thank you very much to whomever pined!
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


You're welcome. Any thoughts on my replies?
_______________
They let me off with a warning and a couple of bullet holes.

Day after day, alone on a hill--
Anonymous Coward
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06/26/2018 08:05 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
I gave up religion for spirituality a long time ago.

Religions were created by man. Union with the Spirit can only be achieved directly - no person can do it for you, and no one can say who can and cannot do it.


hf
Anonymous Coward
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06/26/2018 08:07 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Btw OP - have you ever heard of "Pascal's Wager" - what are your thoughts on it?
MaybeTrollingU  (OP)

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06/26/2018 08:12 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Thank you very much to whomever pined!
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


You're welcome. Any thoughts on my replies?
 Quoting: MarPep


I agree partially. Religion itself is not exactly the problem. The problem is hot it is used.
Anonymous Coward
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06/26/2018 08:18 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Keep putting one foot in front of the other. I think it would open up an entire new avenue of questions, so I would probably search for those answers. Aside from that, I donít think it would change my life in any profound way. Assuming of course, that I believe in any religion to begin with.
MaybeTrollingU  (OP)

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06/26/2018 08:19 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Btw OP - have you ever heard of "Pascal's Wager" - what are your thoughts on it?
 Quoting: Blue_Triquetra


Yes! It is flawed unfortunatelly.
The logic assumes that if god exists then god decides if we are tortured forever or live happy in paradise forever. God bases his decision on your belief. If this is not the case, then you will go to hell for believing in the wager not in god itself. The decision is also based on religious law obedience. And again the wager doesn't work if god does not like people following religious law. It also assumes that god is necessarily the christian god and you must believe the exact doctrinal points that Pascal himself was raised with. And once again the wager does not work if god doesn't like people from a specific branch of religion. Also he assumed that he can rationally decide to believe.
MaybeTrollingU  (OP)

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06/26/2018 08:20 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Keep putting one foot in front of the other. I think it would open up an entire new avenue of questions, so I would probably search for those answers. Aside from that, I donít think it would change my life in any profound way. Assuming of course, that I believe in any religion to begin with.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 73756890


Thank you for your answer!
Small blue thing

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06/26/2018 08:22 PM

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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Its a thought exercise, an abstraction exercise. If you can, imagine that all you know about your specific religion is a lie. Like all the religions along history that arise, faded and die, think that your religion is also a lie. What would you do?

- If you can't do it and go with the path "It can't be" or "I just can't cope with such an idea", don't bother posting.
- Don't quote the bible, its pointless for the exercise, if you can't do it, you fall under the category above, of people incapable of abstract thinking
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


I agree. Religions are a lie. They are invented systems to slave people who easily believe in any kind of god.

That doesn't mean gods don't exist.
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
(Friedrich Nietzsche)
Anonymous Coward
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06/26/2018 08:23 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Its a thought exercise, an abstraction exercise. If you can, imagine that all you know about your specific religion is a lie. Like all the religions along history that arise, faded and die, think that your religion is also a lie. What would you do?

- If you can't do it and go with the path "It can't be" or "I just can't cope with such an idea", don't bother posting.
- Don't quote the bible, its pointless for the exercise, if you can't do it, you fall under the category above, of people incapable of abstract thinking
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


continue the way i live IE dress,certain behaviors respecting life helping others-when i can pretty much a way of life
would i be disappointed yes but not to much would change
sindywoow

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06/26/2018 08:23 PM

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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Inventing your own god, good luck with it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75329801


How about trying my challenge?
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


There is a simple solution to any religious dilemma: you are either a polytheist or a monotheist. The only monotheism know to humans comes from the biblical God. Choose your side.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75329801


Incorrect that the only monotheism is the Biblical God.
Islam is also monotheism, their only God is Allah, which is Arabic for God.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76426692


Allah is Satan.

When asked, Jesus said 'judge a tree by the fruit it bears.'

Islam teaches hatred and murder, it is not from God.
pray to Jesus

Note - not in India, in the UK, English born and bred! lol
Not in Belgium either, I hoped a change of ISP to Plusnet would sort it out, seems not.
Anonymous Coward
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06/26/2018 08:24 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
I gave up religion for spirituality a long time ago.

Religions were created by man. Union with the Spirit can only be achieved directly - no person can do it for you, and no one can say who can and cannot do it.


hf
 Quoting: Blue_Triquetra


spirituality is theway
Anonymous Coward
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06/26/2018 08:26 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
like this thread an interesting thought provoking hfhf
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 11375876
United States
06/26/2018 08:27 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
...


Ok. But may I ask what is in your answer that is different from what others who you see as leaning on easy, ready to go answers? Is there anything in your answer that is no less pre-digested, as it were?

You equate reality with the scientifically known reality. But is this reliable? Yes, we know much more than a thousand years ago, but we also know much more than a thousand months ago, or even a thousand weeks ago. So did your reality change along with it? Is it too hard for you to accept that that which you call reality is ever-changing and therefore cannot be reliably said to be reality at all?

In short, what is it that you can reliably know to be true if all else is a lie?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11375876


My appologies!
I understand your question as in a more philosophical way. This could extend to the "egocentric predicament". This could go VERY long and deep, so I would rather talk about it in a more physical manner.

I consider things using a logical and/or scientific approach. To me, "real" is that I have evidence for.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


Ok, if you take as real that which you have evidence for, if your evidence changes, does reality change with it?

I am using both a logical and scientific approach, which is why I stated at the start that once you stripped away all the lies of religion in your thought experiment, all that was left was what remained untouched by those lies, the fact of your own existence, I am.

Perhaps that is related to your "egocentric predicament."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11375876


Just to clarify, the egocentric predicament, is a psychological/phylosophical study. It deals on the possibility that the whole universe is nothing than a manifestation of my brain, meaning that there is nothing else, except me and my thoughts. It goes way beyond that, but just to summarize.

If evidence changes, then the understanding of reality might change, not the reality itself. Its like discovering a new talent. Suppose someday you find out you're a very good mason(as in laying bricks and making brick walls). Does that change who you are? It might change your behavior and future endeavors, but it will not change you as a whole.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


What you are describing sounds like a cousin to solipsism, the idea that all you can know for certain is your mind.

All of my behavior, just as with all of my thoughts, feelings, or perceptions, are things about me, just as yours are things about you. But who is having these experiences? What doesn't change even amid the continual flux of thoughts, feelings, or perceptions? Is that not reality?
MarPep

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06/26/2018 08:27 PM

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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Thank you very much to whomever pined!
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


You're welcome. Any thoughts on my replies?
 Quoting: MarPep


I agree partially. Religion itself is not exactly the problem. The problem is hot it is used.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


Some religions definitely are a problem to mankind. All religion should be applicable to self, primarily, and never used to subdue or damage other people

Last Edited by MarPep on 06/26/2018 08:31 PM
_______________
They let me off with a warning and a couple of bullet holes.

Day after day, alone on a hill--
MaybeTrollingU  (OP)

User ID: 36524530
Brazil
06/26/2018 08:32 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Its a thought exercise, an abstraction exercise. If you can, imagine that all you know about your specific religion is a lie. Like all the religions along history that arise, faded and die, think that your religion is also a lie. What would you do?

- If you can't do it and go with the path "It can't be" or "I just can't cope with such an idea", don't bother posting.
- Don't quote the bible, its pointless for the exercise, if you can't do it, you fall under the category above, of people incapable of abstract thinking
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


I agree. Religions are a lie. They are invented systems to slave people who easily believe in any kind of god.

That doesn't mean gods don't exist.
 Quoting: Small blue thing


Of course not! Just can't understand why religious people get so triggered when confronted with the question on the thread.
MaybeTrollingU  (OP)

User ID: 36524530
Brazil
06/26/2018 08:32 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Its a thought exercise, an abstraction exercise. If you can, imagine that all you know about your specific religion is a lie. Like all the religions along history that arise, faded and die, think that your religion is also a lie. What would you do?

- If you can't do it and go with the path "It can't be" or "I just can't cope with such an idea", don't bother posting.
- Don't quote the bible, its pointless for the exercise, if you can't do it, you fall under the category above, of people incapable of abstract thinking
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


continue the way i live IE dress,certain behaviors respecting life helping others-when i can pretty much a way of life
would i be disappointed yes but not to much would change
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76713787



Thanks for your answer!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 76441197
United States
06/26/2018 08:34 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
Its a thought exercise, an abstraction exercise. If you can, imagine that all you know about your specific religion is a lie. Like all the religions along history that arise, faded and die, think that your religion is also a lie. What would you do?

- If you can't do it and go with the path "It can't be" or "I just can't cope with such an idea", don't bother posting.
- Don't quote the bible, its pointless for the exercise, if you can't do it, you fall under the category above, of people incapable of abstract thinking
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


I would say that all other religions have the same basic concept in mind.

That concept being: something greater than our common existence or experience exists.

With so many others perceiving similar concepts, there must be an underlying truth.

With TRUTH being self-evident, then the underlying concept could not be a lie, but a miss-perception of truth.

So any belief that a religion is a lie would be a miss-perception of truth, and that the lie would be the refusal to accept the underlying concept.
?
Anonymous Coward
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06/26/2018 08:35 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
It's hard to believe in nothing at all, living a fantasy is much easier. Nobody chooses to believe in nothing, only people that are honest to themselves.

GLP tards are too weak to give up religion.
MaybeTrollingU  (OP)

User ID: 36524530
Brazil
06/26/2018 08:35 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
...


My appologies!
I understand your question as in a more philosophical way. This could extend to the "egocentric predicament". This could go VERY long and deep, so I would rather talk about it in a more physical manner.

I consider things using a logical and/or scientific approach. To me, "real" is that I have evidence for.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


Ok, if you take as real that which you have evidence for, if your evidence changes, does reality change with it?

I am using both a logical and scientific approach, which is why I stated at the start that once you stripped away all the lies of religion in your thought experiment, all that was left was what remained untouched by those lies, the fact of your own existence, I am.

Perhaps that is related to your "egocentric predicament."
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11375876


Just to clarify, the egocentric predicament, is a psychological/phylosophical study. It deals on the possibility that the whole universe is nothing than a manifestation of my brain, meaning that there is nothing else, except me and my thoughts. It goes way beyond that, but just to summarize.

If evidence changes, then the understanding of reality might change, not the reality itself. Its like discovering a new talent. Suppose someday you find out you're a very good mason(as in laying bricks and making brick walls). Does that change who you are? It might change your behavior and future endeavors, but it will not change you as a whole.
 Quoting: MaybeTrollingU


What you are describing sounds like a cousin to solipsism, the idea that all you can know for certain is your mind.

All of my behavior, just as with all of my thoughts, feelings, or perceptions, are things about me, just as yours are things about you. But who is having these experiences? What doesn't change even amid the continual flux of thoughts, feelings, or perceptions? Is that not reality?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 11375876


Egocentric predicament is a modern envision of solipsism. According to it, as far as we know, we can be a brain floating in a jar, or something else, thinking to be a brain, thinking to be in a universe, thinking to be a brain in a jar... One can go insane on that line of thought.
But then again, we gotta have at least one common ground. Until proven otherwise, this is our universe, this is our life and reality is what we experience.
MaybeTrollingU  (OP)

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06/26/2018 08:35 PM
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Re: Friendly discussion and thought exercise to religious people
like this thread an interesting thought provoking hfhf
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76713787


Thanks!





GLP