Isaiah 9:6 is in The End Times - Not Proof That Jesus IS God the Father John 1:1 - Bible Study

Many Christians play scriptural "charades" by pointing to John 1:1 and saying, “See, Jesus is the Word, and the Word was in the beginning with God, and the Word was God!” Even if John 1:1 referred to Jesus as “God” (which it doesn’t) that still would not explain how Revelation 1:8 is a reference to Jesus as, “The Almighty.” These tactics are common, and shows the ignorance and unwillingness of Christians to read the CONTEXT carefully, and be honest.

Many Christians today ALSO believe that Jesus Christ is the “word” spoken of in the NT. They use John 1:1 as their supposed proof. Yet here in Revelation 1:9 John makes a distinction by dividing Deity i.e. “the word of God” from humanity i.e. “the testimony of Jesus” by the use of the conjunction, “AND.” By referring back to Revelation 1:2, we can see that this distinction was made before in the context. Compare Revelation 1:2 and Revelation 1:9 side by side:

Revelation 1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

From here... [link to www.bibleanswerstand.org]

Comparisons Between God and the Man Jesus in Revelation 1:1-9

Having established the difference between God the Father and Jesus, the son of God, let us now contrast the differences as seen in the Book of Revelation. Comparisons between God and Jesus in the Book of Revelation are especially important, because at the time it was written, Jesus had already ascended into heaven, and was seated at the Father’s right hand for many years.

God Gave Jesus (the man) the Revelation

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place; and He sent and communicated {it} by His angel to His bond-servant John, (NAS)

Note that “God gave” Jesus Christ the “Revelation.” If Jesus is God in heaven, then why does he need another God to give him the revelation? Obviously this proves God is different than Jesus Christ.

The Word Of God and Testimony Of Jesus Are Separate

Revelation 1:2 who bore witness to the word of God AND to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. (NAS)

The contrast in Revelation 1:2 is seen with the use of the conjunction, “AND,” because the word “AND” separates the phrase, “the word of God” from the phrase, “the testimony of Jesus.” The apostle John, who received the revelation, bore witness to two separate beings.

He ‘Who Is And Who Was And Who Is To Come’ Is Separate From Jesus

Revelation 1:4-6 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him (God the Father) who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne; AND from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him (Jesus) who loves us, and released us from our sins by his blood, AND he (Jesus) has made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. (NAS)

John writes his apocalypse in very clear terms; he addresses the “seven churches” in Asia, and then qualifies exactly from WHOM the message was given. First he gives supreme recognition to God the Father by addressing Him as, “Him who is and who was and who is to come.” Many Christians mistake this phrase as referring to Jesus without carefully reading the grammatical structure of the paragraph. The paragraph reads, “…Him who is and who was and who is to come AND from Jesus Christ.” The word, “and,” is a conjunction, which divides and separates. This alone PROVES Jesus is not the same as God, and later, in Revelation 1:8, this is verified.

God the Father, who is also known as Yahweh in the OT, is the One, “who is,” because in Exodus 3:14 He tells Moses His name, saying, “I AM THAT I AM.” This is an incomplete translation of the Hebrew wording, “Ehyeh Asshur Ehyeh.” This Hebrew term is more accurately translated as, “I exist {present tense} as what I AM, and what I have always existed as {in the past tense}, and what I will continue to exist as {in the future}.” This Hebrew phrase matches the Greek equivalent description in Revelation 1:4 perfectly as, “Him who is {in the present} and who was {in the past} and who is to come {in the future}.” .

Jesus Cannot Be God If He Is The Firstborn From Among The Dead

Secondly, in order of rank and importance, John writes concerning Jesus by calling him, “the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead,” who, “released us from our sins by his blood.” Again as mentioned earlier, God cannot die, nor does He have blood like a man.

"The mighty God" does not meant the Almighty.

okay, I'm not arguing against you, I just have a question.

I've always believed that Jesus created this world and us. that seems pretty godlike in power, to me. does Jesus have these abilities to create, and still isn't God, but is the Son of God?

just trying to understand, thanks.

Guess you will be one of the nay sayers that will be sorry when He returns to set up the millenial Kingdom of God huh.

This person has just added to the Scripture.

'Possible, probable'.....then inserts their imagination to change the explicit meaning of the text. This person is telling you what the Bible "means" to say, even though it does not say it.

Basically: Well, it does not say it, but it "means" to say.......

See: Genesis 3 for the first twisting of Scripture.

This verse is the biggest stumbling block for those who want to separate God from Himself, who is Jesus.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

It's very clear. I do not have to explain how clear that is. ^^^

Watch the mental gymnastics that are needed to get around that verse. All kinds of excuses like the language, linguistics, "meanings", who wrote it, mistakes in the context, etc.

The name that they truly stumble on is "The everlasting Father."

Well, knock yourselves out trying to 'debunk' God's own Words, if you care to.

I think that is not a good idea personally. Not that anyone cares what I think.

Nonetheless, do as thou wilt.

Jesus was around before Abraham....how much more evidence do you need?

ohn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

"I Am"
eimi - I.to be, to exist, to happen, to be present

And the Pharisees knew EXACTLY what He was claiming, and that is obvious by their reaction:

John 8:59
Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Sorry, but you are 100% wrong. How can God and Jesus be ONE, you ask? Well, consider the analogy of the Sun. The Sun has mass, emits heat, and gives off light. The mass itself, is the Sun and can represent God the Father.

The heat given off by the Sun belongs to the Sun and can be likened to the Holy Spirit. The light given off by the Sun also belongs to the Sun and can be likened to Jesus Christ.

Don't be so stiff-necked.

Perhaps Jesus was "the Word of God before set His divinity aside and became man. Then when He became man He was Know as Jesus.

The phrase “I am” in John 8:58 comes from two Greek words “ego” and “eimi.” The Strong’s Definitions are:

“ego" : “I” (only expressed when emphatic): – I, me.”

“eimi" I exist (used only when emphatic): – am, have been, X it is I, was.”

How would you expect Jesus to respond to this comment? “Then said the Jevvs unto him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” John 8:57

Not knowing Jesus existed before Abraham, the Pharisees are saying how could you have seen Abraham because you are not yet 50 years old. Since the Greek words for “I am” also mean I exist or existed, what is the obvious translation and response from Christ who existed before Abraham?

“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58

Or

“Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I existed.” John 8:58

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 08/31/2018 02:06 PM

Who sent Jesus?
Who's WILL is it that Jesus does?
Who does Jesus pray to?
Who does Jesus SHOW us to pray to?
Who does Jesus give thanks to just before raising Lazarus?
Who gave Jesus power over heaven and earth?
Who is "God" / "the Father" / "He who sent me"...that Jesus mentions over 230 times in the 4 Gospels?
Who sits on the throne and hands the Scroll with Seven Seals to "the Lamb" in Revelation 5?
Who's "right hand" does Jesus sit at in heaven?
Who is it that Jesus had to return to in heaven?

The FATHER!

I didn't add one dang thing you idiot.

It's called....discernmemt.

Show me ONE place ANYWHERE in the Bible that ANY of those terms are used?

Isaiah gave a prophecy about FUTURE history.

Who are the ONLY ones in HISTORY that have called Jesus by those terms?

Humans.

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 07/10/2018 06:15 PM

Nope!

Jesus is the Divine Son of God

Scriptural Facts about who Jesus is.

Jesus mentions "God" / "the Father" / "He who sent me" over 230 times in the 4 Gospels.
Jesus goes off to pray to the Father by Himself. ALL of John 17 is Jesus praying to / talking to the Father.
Jesus starts the Lord's Prayer with "Our Father", which is inclusive of Jesus.
Jesus does NOT KNOW when He is going to return.
Jesus NEVER says to "pray to me" or "ask me". Instead, Jesus says to "ask in My name".
After Jesus' baptism (Matthew 3:17 & Mark 1:11), and the Father's voice is heard.
Peter et al...are told at the transfiguration (by God The Father)...(Matthew 17 & Luke 9).. "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."
Jesus says (in Mark 10 & Luke 18)...And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."
Mark 16:19 (KJV) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
In Matthew 28 Jesus said He was GIVEN power and authority over heaven and earth.
Jesus states SEVERAL times that He does ONLY the Will of the Father.
Jesus call Himself "son of man". Would God the Father really do that? I think not.

17 Jesus answered them, “My Father is always working, and I too must work.”

18 This saying made the Jewish authorities all the more determined to kill him; not only had he broken the Sabbath law, but he had said that God was his own Father and in this way had made himself equal with God.

19 So Jesus answered them, “I tell you the truth: the Son can do nothing on his own; he does only what he sees his Father doing. What the Father does, the Son also does.

20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. He will show him even greater things to do than this, and you will all be amazed.

21 Just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, in the same way the Son gives life to those he wants to.

22 Nor does the Father himself judge anyone. He has given his Son the full right to judge, 23 so that all will honor the Son in the same way as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

24 “I am telling you the truth: those who hear my words and believe in him who sent me have eternal life. They will not be judged, but have already passed from death to life. 25 I am telling you the truth: the time is coming—the time has already come—when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will come to life. 26 Just as the Father is himself the source of life, in the same way he has made his Son to be the source of life.

(John 5:17-27)

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His name wasnt Immanuel.

Have you ever read the "Gospel of Thomas"? It differs significantly from what the 4 Gospels state of Jesus' own words. And it obvious that the writer (who quite possible wasn't even Thomas) wasn't guided by the Holy Spirit.

That is but one of the things that happens when someone tries to put another person's words into their own.

Or when they read someone elses "interpretation" and decides it's the correct one, simply because it's been put / tailored to their OWN comprehension.

This is why Jesus said many times "for those who have eyes, let them see. For those who have ears let them hear."

A perfect example of this is the fact that Jesus used the words "God", "Father" and the phrase "he who sent me" WELL OVER 230 times.

Why do you suppose He went to such great lengths to emphasize that?

He was trying to make it CLEAR who He was.

Yet...people have been led into thinking that by plucking a few other verses out of the Gospels (using the "rightly divide scripture" & "Jesus talks in parables" angles) that they can contradict what Jesus ACTUALLY said.

Jesus KNEW this would happen AHEAD of time.

How do you explain this in Matthew 16?

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

If Jesus is just an ordinary man, isn't this blasphemy?


“Do not be worried and upset,” Jesus told them. “Believe in God and believe also in me.
(John 14:1)

Could care less about the gospel of Thomas. I will show you from scripture why your a scriptural idiot and will not use John 1:1 or Isaiah 9:6

First I will ask you a question, even though I know what your answer will likely be. Then I will show you from revelations why you are incorrect.

Who do you say is the first and the last also known as the alpha and omega?

I NEVER said He was an ordinary man.

He the Son of the Living God.

Jesus is the Lamb. Does God Himself come off of His throne and become the Lamb?

Does God hand the scroll to Himself? Or to Jesus the Lamb?

Revelation

10:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

-----------------------------------------------------

John 20:17 (KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So....He goes to Himself?

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 07/10/2018 06:52 PM

Think so? Read....

From here... [link to www.bibleanswerstand.org]

Comparisons Between God and the Son Jesus in Revelation 1:1-9

Having established the difference between God the Father and Jesus, the son of God, let us now contrast the differences as seen in the Book of Revelation. Comparisons between God and Jesus in the Book of Revelation are especially important, because at the time it was written, Jesus had already ascended into heaven, and was seated at the Father’s right hand for many years.

God Gave Jesus (the Son) the Revelation

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must shortly take place; and He sent and communicated {it} by His angel to His bond-servant John, (NAS)

Note that “God gave” Jesus Christ the “Revelation.” If Jesus is God in heaven, then why does he need another God to give him the revelation? Obviously this proves God is different than Jesus Christ.

The Word Of God and Testimony Of Jesus Are Separate

Revelation 1:2 who bore witness to the word of God AND to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. (NAS)

The contrast in Revelation 1:2 is seen with the use of the conjunction, “AND,” because the word “AND” separates the phrase, “the word of God” from the phrase, “the testimony of Jesus.” The apostle John, who received the revelation, bore witness to two separate beings.

He ‘Who Is And Who Was And Who Is To Come’ Is Separate From Jesus

Revelation 1:4-6 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him (God the Father) who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne; AND from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him (Jesus) who loves us, and released us from our sins by his blood, AND he (Jesus) has made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. (NAS)

John writes his apocalypse in very clear terms; he addresses the “seven churches” in Asia, and then qualifies exactly from WHOM the message was given. First he gives supreme recognition to God the Father by addressing Him as, “Him who is and who was and who is to come.” Many Christians mistake this phrase as referring to Jesus without carefully reading the grammatical structure of the paragraph. The paragraph reads, “…Him who is and who was and who is to come AND from Jesus Christ.” The word, “and,” is a conjunction, which divides and separates. This alone PROVES Jesus is not the same as God, and later, in Revelation 1:8, this is verified.

God the Father, who is also known as Yahweh in the OT, is the One, “who is,” because in Exodus 3:14 He tells Moses His name, saying, “I AM THAT I AM.” This is an incomplete translation of the Hebrew wording, “Ehyeh Asshur Ehyeh.” This Hebrew term is more accurately translated as, “I exist {present tense} as what I AM, and what I have always existed as {in the past tense}, and what I will continue to exist as {in the future}.” This Hebrew phrase matches the Greek equivalent description in Revelation 1:4 perfectly as, “Him who is {in the present} and who was {in the past} and who is to come {in the future}.” .

Jesus Cannot Be God If He Is The Firstborn From Among The Dead

Secondly, in order of rank and importance, John writes concerning Jesus by calling him, “the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead,” who, “released us from our sins by his blood.” Again as mentioned earlier, God cannot die, nor does He have blood like a man.

Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 07/10/2018 06:57 PM

Also? What does also mean? Which God did they already believe in?

Ok clown. Here it is.

Revelations 2:8

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the Alpha and the Omega, which was dead, and is alive;

So tell us again how Jesus is not the Alpha and Omega.

Of course it does, just not what you think.

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Jesus himself said "before Abraham was I AM" (Jn. 8:58). The pharisees knew that He claimed to be God, they said "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." (Jn 10:33) Miah 5:2 said of Bethlehem, where Messiah would be born "out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting". Phil 2:6 states that Jesus "thought it not robbery to be equal with God". 1 tim 3:16, "God was manifest in the flesh".

The fact of the matter is, if Jesus was not God manifest in the flesh, you are yet in your sins brother. All men have inherited the sin nature from Adam. All men therefore have sinned. Only one who had NEVER sinned their whole life (which only God could do) could legally take guilty mankind's guilty upon himself. Therefore God had to provide the solution.

Jesus himself said "before Abraham was I AM" (Jn. 8:58). The pharisees knew that He claimed to be God, they said "For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." (Jn 10:33) Miah 5:2 said of Bethlehem, where Messiah would be born "out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting". Phil 2:6 states that Jesus "thought it not robbery to be equal with God". 1 tim 3:16, "God was manifest in the flesh".

The fact of the matter is, if Jesus was not God manifest in the flesh, you are yet in your sins brother. All men have inherited the sin nature from Adam. All men therefore have sinned. Only one who had NEVER sinned their whole life (which only God could do) could legally take guilty mankind's guilty upon himself. Therefore God had to provide the solution.

It's not a title, God is not mortal, and the trinity and the claim the Jesus is God is refuted in literally the first verse of Revelation.

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Furthermore Revelation shows us there won't be a trinitarians or deity of christ worshippers in the kingdom.

And has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father– to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. Revelation 1:6

The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. Revelation 3:12

Because idolatry is a no-no. So is taking the mark of the beast.

Is it blasphemy for Jesus to say that?


17 Jesus answered them, “My Father is always working, and I too must work.”

18 This saying made the Jewish authorities all the more determined to kill him; not only had he broken the Sabbath law, but he had said that God was his own Father and in this way had made himself equal with God.

(John 5:17-18)

Comparisons of Revelation 1:11 in various Bibles.

Alpha and Omega are not in MOST of them.

AND not in the oldest manuscripts.

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Yet Jesus is firstborn of creation.

Here....take a look at the many translations of 2:8.
How many have "Alpha and Omega"?

It's not in the oldest manuscripts.

It was added by the "Jesus is the Father" people.

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Last Edited by Servant-of-the-LORD on 07/10/2018 07:26 PM

Messiah was given "the names above all names", His Fathers name was given to him. I can site scripture after scripture that says He was given his Fathers name and also that he is His Fathers son and why he is not the Almighty One. So, instead of posting all 50 scriptures I will simply address the elephant in the room, "His Name shall be called... The Mighty God". This is very simple in explination, that His Name is The same Name of the Mighty God YHWH.

Remember this scripture:
Joh 17:11 “And I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Set-apart Father, guard them in Your Name which You have given Me, so that they might be one, as We are.
Joh 17:12 “When I was with them in the world, I was guarding them in Your Name which You have given Me, and I watched over them, and not one of them perished except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be filled.

I think for those with ears to hear and eyes to see this will make total sense. Blessings in YaHuWaH!