Needing Help Locating a Musical Interval

and off to work.


Will check back if anyone has any insight on this.

Not sure what you’re attempting here as you already seem to be over my head in your understanding of these things. The concept of an interval I sorta get...it is the distance between two frequencies (musical notes)...either played sequentially or simultaneously. The term “magic frequency” I don’t know. Are you referring to sacred geometry or something altogether different? Likewise I’m thrown by “corresponding frequency that is 11 times the base”...do you mean the 11th order harmonic, the 11th octave (duh, you wouldn’t be asking for help) or something else?

Decades ago, while attending The University of Illinois, I used to enjoy experimenting with intervals (2 notes being played simultaneously). I would play a single (base) note on my violin and try and create the 2nd note by amplifying one of the higher order harmonics by playing it on the adjacent string. The technology available to students on-hand was a strobe light tuner & my own hearing. I noticed that some of the combinations seemed to have a positive hypnotic effect on my sense of well being. Some professors had access to computers & synthesizers. One of my composition professor’s (Ben Johnston) identified a 43-tone scale (in one octave) and came up with clever ways to notate these pitches on sheet music. It wasn’t really anything new as far as it was performed or heard. Another one of my professors (Herbert Brun) used a graphic plotter & precise mathematical formulae to print his compositions which really looked like something created with an etch-a-sketch or Spirograph.

Nowadays we can use spectrum analyzers to visually see & manipulate the interactions between to frequencies. I discovered (for myself) that contained within the sound of the base note is the seed of all other notes of the universe found by recursively amplifying each of the fundamental’s 1st order harmonic own 1st order harmonics. Really, it is the harmonics that give each note its own characteristic sound. A very good (religious) friend told me that idea was reeking of Darwinism & was Satanic...ugh.

I also discovered (for myself) that simultaneously playing two notes (slightly off pitch think C2-C2~) at the same amplitude creates an annoying third note known as a resultant tone/undertone/beating tone. Some vocalist have been able to replicate this effect by humming one pitch whilst whistling or vocalizing another one.

Nicola Tesla allegedly was able to trigger an earthquake by amplifying the combined output of two closely out-of-phase low-frequency generators...yeah...Intervals are some powerful stuff.

Good luck on your quest...and please don’t shake the universe apart.
Fiddling Bill

Thanks for your interest Bill.

I should have stated 11th harmonic, and yes I'm referring to two frequencies played simultaneously, a base frequency and it's 11th harmonic, for example 55hz and 605hz, but here's the problem:

While 55hz is A1 in A440 tempered tuning, 605hz is somewhere between D5 and D#5, so the magic frequency(ies) cannot be replicated on a standard keyboard (could be done on a violin or guitar or any variable pitch instrument but the precision would not be there) in equal temperament.

I've tried a bunch of combinations, as a tempered scale is not on a fixed ratio but a staggered ratio based upon fractional intervals, but every time the 11th harmonic is in between notes. However I have not tried every possible combination, yet I suspect it simply can't be done on a tempered scale.

As there are quite a few various temperaments created over the years, I was wondering if perhaps someone could direct me to a temperament that might work. I also experimented with correct pitch even temperament (A432), however it seems that whatever pitch the scale is based upon, it's the temperament that prevents the harmonic from working.

The problem is, if I created the harmonic artificially, then I will be forced to used the artificial harmonic, for example creating a note in a synth, I will be stuck using that particular synth. I want to be able to incorporate the harmonic into distributed music that anyone can replicate.

Perhaps the answer is in using two different instruments, as they all have different temperaments unto themselves.

So, hopefully that clarifies my intent somewhat.


Here's what got me started on the "magic frequency" quest:

Old knowledge uses frequency to move object.

Whats Earths frequency right now?

try it on a stringed instrument and do some bending? this is slightly above my pay grade lol

4.11

So, at 4.11, that would put the proper pitch for a resonant scale somewhere about 243, using C4 at 263.04

The thing about 432 is that it actually works mathematically and sounds so much more harmonic.

Sadly, concert A was changed from 432 to 440 a hundred years or so, to make music sound more "interesting" (discordant in my opinion), or perhaps to sow the discord [dischord] of the 20th century.


You raise an interesting point however.

In 440, F is closest to (without exceeding, it's closer to F#, I'll explain) the 11 harmonic for the Schumann, at 43.63 hz. Now I have always found F to be the most harmonically pleasing key.

Could this be an effect of elevating perception just above the Schumann frequency? [ascension]

Now, in 432, the closest pitch is F#, (45.41hz), and a lot of Debussy is in F#, and Beethoven used C# all the time.

Thanks for your input.

*So, at 4.11, that would put the proper pitch for a resonant scale somewhere about 243, using C4 at 263.04


443, typo

Correct, but I'm looking for a fixed way to use the frequency, seems the harmonic has to be precise to use for mass healing.

Tune the two frquencies (any two, really) so they are not perfect harmonic with each other. Tune them so they produce dissonance, not resonance. This means you detune it slightly off perfect 11th octave resonance. The dissonance will shake the organism or will explode or implode it.

I will remind you that this entire thread is about finding the dissonance without detuning the instrument.

OP, threads like this are truly refreshing....so many streams of thought packed into each paragraph. The ideas presented in the video are absolutely amazing & prescient for me...I admire the approach you seem to be taking...Thank You.

I get it that you’re looking to produce live & beneficially therapeutic music.

The informational video gives me a bit of hope that if cancer cells can be attacked using oscillation then, perhaps, a similar process could be applied towards busting up the brain plaques and prions associated with dementia.
I hope the breakthroughs happen soon. It would be tremendously awesome to be prescribed a ticket to a concert series for the express purpose of healing our bodies!

I don’t want to clutter your thread with all the tangential thoughts. Here are a few you might take into consideration:

The video didn’t detail what exact power levels are being used for each individual frequency (the prime & the 11th harmonic) to achieve the desired destructive effect assuming these were pure sine waves...nor did it say what happens to the healthy cells. I’m fairly certain there are people out there devoted to identifying the various frequencies of each part of the body & universe. I hope this technology will be applicable towards unclogging arteries, lungs, & stupid thoughts.

The “audible frequency” range for human hearing is between 20Hz and 20kHz whereas the cancer cells in the video are excited by “ultra sonic or super sonic frequencies” in the 100kHz to 300kHz range. These days surgeons are using “microwave & light frequencies” to perform many procedures. It is easy to confuse one form of energy with another when looking at it from a purely mathematical paradigm.

Obviously, You already understand the process of taking that magic ratio & modulating it down to a register usable for a singer or fret less instrumentalist such as oboe, cello, etc the late Ben Johnston used “Just Intonation” as the foundation for his compositions & devised a few articulation symbols to put on regular sheet music to help the musician know when to bend the note sharper or flatter than what the piano was playing.

I once met a virtual instrument programmer (Joeythemadscientist on YouTube) who was trying to incorporate the principles of “Sacred Geometry” and all of that into his musical compositions...he still puts out about one new composition per day but I’ve gave up trying to take it all in. While he taught me a little about “convolution reverb” over dinner, we also had a very interesting conversation about the brain-hacking effects of certain frequencies & music...I had experienced an Alzheimer’s patient seemingly snap out of it and come back to life during one concert at her nursing home when my band played the hymn “Rock of Ages”! A song she knew from childhood. It was quite an eye opener to say the least.

Well I’m getting tired of typing for now, if you have time or interest take a look at “ [link to www.izotope.com (secure)] The DX7 sometimes can be found at yard sales for less than $20. But the electronics are old & the little round battery isn’t sufficient to keep your re-programmed settings in memory after you unplug the keyboard. I would’ve liked to have had one 35 years ago. Maybe I wouldn’t have gotten kicked out of college.

Regards, Bill

Must be part of the Pentatonic scale if it is important

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Hildegard of Bingen
Medieval saint, prophet, mystic and Doctor of Church

Check her out

From wiki

Medieval Chanting

So you need a tone generator that can produce fractional / metric (tenths of) frequencies?

A tone generator using a rheostat versus a "click" for a whole frequency, for example?

You could go low tech and Pythagorean and build yourself a monochord set up like one of these.



youtube.com/watch?v=gYtSI4-ShLU

Thanks for the encouragement Bill.

While the cancer eradication does take place at 1-2 hundred thousand hertz, I was trying to simply extract the concept presuming the idea would simply be positive and uplifting in a live musical setting. Perhaps healing on a different level than say, busting cancer cells.

Thanks for the link, I will check it out.

I have 2 Korg T-3's which allow for custom tempered scales, never had a Dx7 but I use a Yamaha S-80 synth regularly, so it might have the same abilities.

Of course, If I figure out how to incorporate this into standard just temperament at standard pitch then I won't have to synthesize the harmonic.

So now I'm moving on to the possibility of tonal clusters, creating the harmonic mathematically using the standard scale and temperament.

Actually the most logical starting point is the "secret chord" found in scripture:

32 hz C1 PEDAL C
64 hz C2 deep C
144hz D3
176 F3
208 G#3/Ab3

Note that is contains an 11th harmonic derivative, {F3), as well as minor 3rd of that, which would be actually a flat 13th derivative (Ab3)of the root.

So now the question becomes; "how can I mathematically determine if the secret chord produces the magic frequency"?

As well as how can I determine if other tonal clusters produce the same?

Thanks again for your input.

Will check out, thanks.

Hey that's a cool idea, because I would build it in macro scale, and then have some sort of fine tuning mechanism to create the specific harmonic.

Thanks!

I don't know. It's not found pentatonically on just temperament, but it might work with pentatonic tonal clusters.


Note that the "secret chord" cannot be derived from a pentatonic scale;

32 hz C1 PEDAL C
64 hz C2 deep C
144hz D3
176 F3
208 G#3/Ab3

You don't quite understand Helmholtz Theory of Music. Harmonics will always be harmonic, thats why its called harmonics. I eventually realized that it's dissonance that is the effective killer of organisms (slight detune for beat frequencies.

Now there are specific frequencies that are exactly opposite of the frequency of any organism and when you hit it, it will wreck the organism. I once saw a video of a microbe and it was destroyed by a frequency in the range of around 25+ Mhz.

Is that even relevant?

I'm looking for an 11th harmonic without creating it artificially.

I'm guessing you don't understand my thread.