Upside down Christmas tree....Why? | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 76984449 United States 11/27/2019 03:27 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | It was a thing 20 years ago too. Hipsters gonna hipster. The real Christian question is why a tree at all? Because it is a holiday taken from the ancient druids. Druids would have never chopped down the tree though. That meant death because their gods lived in them. Hence why they would decorate them and leave presents under them. the druids also decorated trees with the heads of their slain enemies... Yeah they did some gruesome things. Hence the Christmas balls. |
GLP Effect
User ID: 76318428 United States 11/27/2019 03:27 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Awhile back, with the game Portal, people would mount their Christmas tree upside down on the ceiling or sideways on a wall, with the portal light halo around the base. This made it appear like the tree was sticking out of a portal. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15410107 That aside, these new ones are probably meant to be some sort of inversion of the Christian attachment to the holiday. Christmas is a pagan holiday masquerading as a Christian one. Even though Christians perceive it as a satanic inversion (and it probably is), its meaning falls short because a Christmas tree has nothing to do with Jesus whatsoever. Since it is ingrained in our minds, however, the effect is the same; it is seen as blasphemy, because of the attachment we place on it. For non-Christians, it is just more of the same... a satanic agenda aimed at hearts and minds, to turn us away from God and embrace ever more depraved and openly, blatantly satanic themes, causing worship of the beast system. If you’re not with God, you’re against him. Something to think about. [link to www.catholic.com (secure)] Pray this prayer to blind Satan: [link to flameoflove.us (secure)] |
Honey44
User ID: 76322936 United States 11/27/2019 03:28 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 76984449 United States 11/27/2019 03:29 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Awhile back, with the game Portal, people would mount their Christmas tree upside down on the ceiling or sideways on a wall, with the portal light halo around the base. This made it appear like the tree was sticking out of a portal. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15410107 That aside, these new ones are probably meant to be some sort of inversion of the Christian attachment to the holiday. Christmas is a pagan holiday masquerading as a Christian one. Even though Christians perceive it as a satanic inversion (and it probably is), its meaning falls short because a Christmas tree has nothing to do with Jesus whatsoever. Since it is ingrained in our minds, however, the effect is the same; it is seen as blasphemy, because of the attachment we place on it. For non-Christians, it is just more of the same... a satanic agenda aimed at hearts and minds, to turn us away from God and embrace ever more depraved and openly, blatantly satanic themes, causing worship of the beast system. If you’re not with God, you’re against him. Something to think about. [link to www.catholic.com (secure)] They can’t debunk what is historical. The RCC is the one who took pagan holidays and tried to Christianize them. They polluted first century Christianity. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 78200818 United States 11/27/2019 03:34 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I look at it this way, the Christians can have their Jesus' birthday holiday and celebrate it any way they want to as far as i am concerned but I do think the modern expression of Christmas is an intentional commercially motivated distraction from that meaning that tends to being out the greed in children and confuse them as to the true meaning of it from the christian perspective.I suspect this is largely j*wish plot. That being said, it's nice to have all the lights, decorations, happy children and partying at the darkest time of the year which is what I think the holidaze are really all about for me and most people. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 77879875 United States 11/27/2019 03:41 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 78200818 United States 11/27/2019 03:42 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Awhile back, with the game Portal, people would mount their Christmas tree upside down on the ceiling or sideways on a wall, with the portal light halo around the base. This made it appear like the tree was sticking out of a portal. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15410107 That aside, these new ones are probably meant to be some sort of inversion of the Christian attachment to the holiday. Christmas is a pagan holiday masquerading as a Christian one. Even though Christians perceive it as a satanic inversion (and it probably is), its meaning falls short because a Christmas tree has nothing to do with Jesus whatsoever. Since it is ingrained in our minds, however, the effect is the same; it is seen as blasphemy, because of the attachment we place on it. For non-Christians, it is just more of the same... a satanic agenda aimed at hearts and minds, to turn us away from God and embrace ever more depraved and openly, blatantly satanic themes, causing worship of the beast system. If you’re not with God, you’re against him. Something to think about. Decorating a tree doesn't make the birthday of Christ a "pagan holiday". December isn’t his birthday. correct. We know from Roman records that if the biblical account was correct it had to be mid October, when the Romans collected taxes...if you recall Joseph and Mary were journeying to Nazareth to pay their taxes when Jesus was born in a barn due to the fact they couldn't get a room because of all of the other people in town there to do the same thing. it is also unlikely shepherds would be tending flocks in the fields in winter months |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 77032139 United States 11/27/2019 03:46 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Awhile back, with the game Portal, people would mount their Christmas tree upside down on the ceiling or sideways on a wall, with the portal light halo around the base. This made it appear like the tree was sticking out of a portal. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15410107 That aside, these new ones are probably meant to be some sort of inversion of the Christian attachment to the holiday. Christmas is a pagan holiday masquerading as a Christian one. Even though Christians perceive it as a satanic inversion (and it probably is), its meaning falls short because a Christmas tree has nothing to do with Jesus whatsoever. Since it is ingrained in our minds, however, the effect is the same; it is seen as blasphemy, because of the attachment we place on it. For non-Christians, it is just more of the same... a satanic agenda aimed at hearts and minds, to turn us away from God and embrace ever more depraved and openly, blatantly satanic themes, causing worship of the beast system. If you’re not with God, you’re against him. Something to think about. Decorating a tree doesn't make the birthday of Christ a "pagan holiday". December isn’t his birthday. I’m sure you’d say that no matter what day it was celebrated. His exact birthday isn’t known. Why does it matter if it’s celebrated on a certain day anyway? |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 76984449 United States 11/27/2019 03:46 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Awhile back, with the game Portal, people would mount their Christmas tree upside down on the ceiling or sideways on a wall, with the portal light halo around the base. This made it appear like the tree was sticking out of a portal. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15410107 That aside, these new ones are probably meant to be some sort of inversion of the Christian attachment to the holiday. Christmas is a pagan holiday masquerading as a Christian one. Even though Christians perceive it as a satanic inversion (and it probably is), its meaning falls short because a Christmas tree has nothing to do with Jesus whatsoever. Since it is ingrained in our minds, however, the effect is the same; it is seen as blasphemy, because of the attachment we place on it. For non-Christians, it is just more of the same... a satanic agenda aimed at hearts and minds, to turn us away from God and embrace ever more depraved and openly, blatantly satanic themes, causing worship of the beast system. If you’re not with God, you’re against him. Something to think about. Decorating a tree doesn't make the birthday of Christ a "pagan holiday". December isn’t his birthday. correct. We know from Roman records that if the biblical account was correct it had to be mid October, when the Romans collected taxes...if you recall Joseph and Mary were journeying to Nazareth to pay their taxes when Jesus was born in a barn due to the fact they couldn't get a room because of all of the other people in town there to do the same thing. it is also unlikely shepherds would be tending flocks in the fields in winter months Yeah. Late September early October. The weather would have been good then since the shepherds were out with their flocks. Excellent traveling weather unlike rainy cold December. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 77032139 United States 11/27/2019 03:47 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Awhile back, with the game Portal, people would mount their Christmas tree upside down on the ceiling or sideways on a wall, with the portal light halo around the base. This made it appear like the tree was sticking out of a portal. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15410107 That aside, these new ones are probably meant to be some sort of inversion of the Christian attachment to the holiday. Christmas is a pagan holiday masquerading as a Christian one. Even though Christians perceive it as a satanic inversion (and it probably is), its meaning falls short because a Christmas tree has nothing to do with Jesus whatsoever. Since it is ingrained in our minds, however, the effect is the same; it is seen as blasphemy, because of the attachment we place on it. For non-Christians, it is just more of the same... a satanic agenda aimed at hearts and minds, to turn us away from God and embrace ever more depraved and openly, blatantly satanic themes, causing worship of the beast system. If you’re not with God, you’re against him. Something to think about. Decorating a tree doesn't make the birthday of Christ a "pagan holiday". December isn’t his birthday. correct. We know from Roman records that if the biblical account was correct it had to be mid October, when the Romans collected taxes...if you recall Joseph and Mary were journeying to Nazareth to pay their taxes when Jesus was born in a barn due to the fact they couldn't get a room because of all of the other people in town there to do the same thing. it is also unlikely shepherds would be tending flocks in the fields in winter months Shepherds tend their flocks year-round. |
Visitor User ID: 77890044 United States 11/27/2019 03:48 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 76984449 United States 11/27/2019 03:50 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Awhile back, with the game Portal, people would mount their Christmas tree upside down on the ceiling or sideways on a wall, with the portal light halo around the base. This made it appear like the tree was sticking out of a portal. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 15410107 That aside, these new ones are probably meant to be some sort of inversion of the Christian attachment to the holiday. Christmas is a pagan holiday masquerading as a Christian one. Even though Christians perceive it as a satanic inversion (and it probably is), its meaning falls short because a Christmas tree has nothing to do with Jesus whatsoever. Since it is ingrained in our minds, however, the effect is the same; it is seen as blasphemy, because of the attachment we place on it. For non-Christians, it is just more of the same... a satanic agenda aimed at hearts and minds, to turn us away from God and embrace ever more depraved and openly, blatantly satanic themes, causing worship of the beast system. If you’re not with God, you’re against him. Something to think about. Decorating a tree doesn't make the birthday of Christ a "pagan holiday". December isn’t his birthday. I’m sure you’d say that no matter what day it was celebrated. His exact birthday isn’t known. Why does it matter if it’s celebrated on a certain day anyway? Because December 25 is a demons birthday. Of course Satan would do that to Jesus. We don’t know the exact day of his birth but we do know the time frame and isn’t December. Jesus didn’t even celebrate his birthday. None of the Jewish people did. It was pagan. We know the exact day and hour of his death though. If God wanted us to celebrate Jesus birth he would have given us the day and even the hour. Jesus said to remember his death because that is what saves us. Not his birth. |
44 Legend
User ID: 76982758 United States 11/27/2019 03:50 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Christmas trees are pagan, from pagan orgins. Nothing has changed today except more people embraced paganism. Quoting: 44 Legend Jeremiah 10: 1-5 10 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: 2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good. Well, that was interesting! Not really. Here's are some insights from David Guzik's commentary on this passage in Jeremiah: " Nevertheless, there are many reasons to believe that despite some similarities, the differences are even greater and do not prohibit the modern custom of the Christmas tree. · Jeremiah spoke regarding the customs of the Gentiles, and in the modern world the appropriate celebration of Christmas is an expression of believe in God and His Son, not a custom of unbelievers. · Jeremiah spoke of believers borrowing customs of unbelievers; in the modern world, when an unbeliever has a Christmas tree, it is a case of unbelievers borrowing the customs of believers. · Jeremiah spoke of a tree regarded as an idol, and (properly understood) the modern Christmas tree is not an idol. If for a family it is or becomes an idol, it should be discarded with. · Jeremiah spoke to a time in history when trees were often directly connected with idolatry, either literal trees or their representations (Jeremiah 2:27). God has never sanctified anything pagan. Once pagan, always pagan. Christmas was started/influenced by Constantine who incorporated the pagan traditions of the winter solstice pagan rituals. That is why it is on Dec 25th, near the winter solstice and not in the fall when Jesus was actually born. Just like Easter incorporates the Ester egg and the Easter bunny, symbols of fertility worship which was used in the spring pagan worship. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 78200818 United States 11/27/2019 03:52 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | For those of you who say Christmas is a "pagan" holiday steeped in pagan symbology, i say this...horseshit. Festivals around the winter solstice are as old as history itself, and not inherently "evil" in any way. It was a celebration of the lengthening of the day and the promise of the return of spring, just as Easter is fertility festival celebrating rebirth in springtime around the vernal equinox . the symbols can mean whatever you want them to mean and the meaning of the holiday is whatever you make it out to be in your own mind. There is nothing "wrong" with having fun or celebrating things that people were dependent on for survival. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 76984449 United States 11/27/2019 03:54 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ... Quoting: Anonymous Coward 67437617 Decorating a tree doesn't make the birthday of Christ a "pagan holiday". December isn’t his birthday. correct. We know from Roman records that if the biblical account was correct it had to be mid October, when the Romans collected taxes...if you recall Joseph and Mary were journeying to Nazareth to pay their taxes when Jesus was born in a barn due to the fact they couldn't get a room because of all of the other people in town there to do the same thing. it is also unlikely shepherds would be tending flocks in the fields in winter months Shepherds tend their flocks year-round. It is not a comfortable time of year and definitely bad for traveling. Since Jesus was 33 1/2 years old when he died in late March early April that would have put his birth 6 months later. Not in December. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 78068745 United States 11/27/2019 03:54 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The ONLY feast days mentioned or alluded to in the "NT" where the same ones in Leviticus 23. Yeshua and the ORIGINAL taught ones ONLY celebrated the Feasts found in Leviticus 23, along with weekly Shabbat. Sunday, "christmas", and ishtar/easter were NEVER kept by Yeshua or the Original taught ones. All those PAGAN days were added by the "church fathers", Constantine, and roman catholic "church", etc. Most of you think you are following Messiah, but if you truly examine what He taught and kept, you would realize that you are following the imposter. He even warned you that imposters would arise: Mat 24:4 And Yeshua answering, said to them, “Take heed that no one leads you astray. Mat 24:5 “For many shall come in My Name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and they shall lead many astray. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 76984449 United States 11/27/2019 03:55 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Christmas trees are pagan, from pagan orgins. Nothing has changed today except more people embraced paganism. Quoting: 44 Legend Jeremiah 10: 1-5 10 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: 2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. 3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good. Yes God was not happy when the Israelites decided to dedicate a pagan golden calf to him. Many died because of that. Christmas and Easter would be no different. Well, that was interesting! Not really. Here's are some insights from David Guzik's commentary on this passage in Jeremiah: " Nevertheless, there are many reasons to believe that despite some similarities, the differences are even greater and do not prohibit the modern custom of the Christmas tree. · Jeremiah spoke regarding the customs of the Gentiles, and in the modern world the appropriate celebration of Christmas is an expression of believe in God and His Son, not a custom of unbelievers. · Jeremiah spoke of believers borrowing customs of unbelievers; in the modern world, when an unbeliever has a Christmas tree, it is a case of unbelievers borrowing the customs of believers. · Jeremiah spoke of a tree regarded as an idol, and (properly understood) the modern Christmas tree is not an idol. If for a family it is or becomes an idol, it should be discarded with. · Jeremiah spoke to a time in history when trees were often directly connected with idolatry, either literal trees or their representations (Jeremiah 2:27). God has never sanctified anything pagan. Once pagan, always pagan. Christmas was started/influenced by Constantine who incorporated the pagan traditions of the winter solstice pagan rituals. That is why it is on Dec 25th, near the winter solstice and not in the fall when Jesus was actually born. Just like Easter incorporates the Ester egg and the Easter bunny, symbols of fertility worship which was used in the spring pagan worship. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 78200818 United States 11/27/2019 03:56 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | ... Quoting: Anonymous Coward 67437617 Decorating a tree doesn't make the birthday of Christ a "pagan holiday". December isn’t his birthday. correct. We know from Roman records that if the biblical account was correct it had to be mid October, when the Romans collected taxes...if you recall Joseph and Mary were journeying to Nazareth to pay their taxes when Jesus was born in a barn due to the fact they couldn't get a room because of all of the other people in town there to do the same thing. it is also unlikely shepherds would be tending flocks in the fields in winter months Shepherds tend their flocks year-round. ummmm..no. they don't. in the winter they bring them into barns and shelter them and feed them stored up hay because they cannot be grazed on dead grass that has rotted in the fields |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 78200818 United States 11/27/2019 03:58 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | For those of you who say Christmas is a "pagan" holiday steeped in pagan symbology, i say this...horseshit. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78200818 Festivals around the winter solstice are as old as history itself, and not inherently "evil" in any way. It was a celebration of the lengthening of the day and the promise of the return of spring, just as Easter is fertility festival celebrating rebirth in springtime around the vernal equinox . the symbols can mean whatever you want them to mean and the meaning of the holiday is whatever you make it out to be in your own mind. There is nothing "wrong" with having fun or celebrating things that people were dependent on for survival. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 76984449 United States 11/27/2019 03:58 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Not really. Here's are some insights from David Guzik's commentary on this passage in Jeremiah: " Nevertheless, there are many reasons to believe that despite some similarities, the differences are even greater and do not prohibit the modern custom of the Christmas tree. · Jeremiah spoke regarding the customs of the Gentiles, and in the modern world the appropriate celebration of Christmas is an expression of believe in God and His Son, not a custom of unbelievers. · Jeremiah spoke of believers borrowing customs of unbelievers; in the modern world, when an unbeliever has a Christmas tree, it is a case of unbelievers borrowing the customs of believers. · Jeremiah spoke of a tree regarded as an idol, and (properly understood) the modern Christmas tree is not an idol. If for a family it is or becomes an idol, it should be discarded with. · Jeremiah spoke to a time in history when trees were often directly connected with idolatry, either literal trees or their representations (Jeremiah 2:27). God has never sanctified anything pagan. Once pagan, always pagan. Christmas was started/influenced by Constantine who incorporated the pagan traditions of the winter solstice pagan rituals. That is why it is on Dec 25th, near the winter solstice and not in the fall when Jesus was actually born. Just like Easter incorporates the Ester egg and the Easter bunny, symbols of fertility worship which was used in the spring pagan worship. Yes God was not happy when the Israelites decided to dedicate a pagan golden calf to him. Many died because of that. Christmas and Easter would be no different. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 78068745 United States 11/27/2019 03:59 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | For those of you who say Christmas is a "pagan" holiday steeped in pagan symbology, i say this...horseshit. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78200818 Festivals around the winter solstice are as old as history itself, and not inherently "evil" in any way. It was a celebration of the lengthening of the day and the promise of the return of spring, just as Easter is fertility festival celebrating rebirth in springtime around the vernal equinox . the symbols can mean whatever you want them to mean and the meaning of the holiday is whatever you make it out to be in your own mind. There is nothing "wrong" with having fun or celebrating things that people were dependent on for survival. LOL, YVHV says NOT to learn the ways of the pagans, and God repeatedly tells us to come out of babylon. I will listen the Creator and His Instruction instead of your feel good wide path BS! |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 78068745 United States 11/27/2019 04:01 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | For those of you who say Christmas is a "pagan" holiday steeped in pagan symbology, i say this...horseshit. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78200818 Festivals around the winter solstice are as old as history itself, and not inherently "evil" in any way. It was a celebration of the lengthening of the day and the promise of the return of spring, just as Easter is fertility festival celebrating rebirth in springtime around the vernal equinox . the symbols can mean whatever you want them to mean and the meaning of the holiday is whatever you make it out to be in your own mind. There is nothing "wrong" with having fun or celebrating things that people were dependent on for survival. LOL, YHVH says NOT to learn the ways of the pagans, and God repeatedly tells us to come out of babylon. I will listen the Creator and His Instruction instead of your feel good wide path BS! |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 78200818 United States 11/27/2019 04:01 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | For those of you who say Christmas is a "pagan" holiday steeped in pagan symbology, i say this...horseshit. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78200818 Festivals around the winter solstice are as old as history itself, and not inherently "evil" in any way. It was a celebration of the lengthening of the day and the promise of the return of spring, just as Easter is fertility festival celebrating rebirth in springtime around the vernal equinox . the symbols can mean whatever you want them to mean and the meaning of the holiday is whatever you make it out to be in your own mind. There is nothing "wrong" with having fun or celebrating things that people were dependent on for survival. LOL, YVHV says NOT to learn the ways of the pagans, and God repeatedly tells us to come out of babylon. I will listen the Creator and His Instruction instead of your feel good wide path BS! your "creator" is a psychotic murderer of humanity and the origin of evil |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 78200818 United States 11/27/2019 04:08 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Just like Easter incorporates the Ester egg and the Easter bunny, symbols of fertility worship which was used in the spring pagan worship. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76984449 Yes God was not happy when the Israelites decided to dedicate a pagan golden calf to him. Many died because of that. Christmas and Easter would be no different. IMO if the fable is true which i sincerely doubt), the "golden calf" was a scam cooked up between Aron and Moses to defraud the people of their gold....After Moses came down from the mountain after" communing with god", he feigned disgust and warned them of eternal damnation by his jealous "god" if they didn't destroy it, and it was burned in fire. They never got their gold back, but since gold doesn't burn (or dissolve in water), somebody did..guess who? have a NICE day! |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 78200818 United States 11/27/2019 04:09 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | For those of you who say Christmas is a "pagan" holiday steeped in pagan symbology, i say this...horseshit. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78200818 Festivals around the winter solstice are as old as history itself, and not inherently "evil" in any way. It was a celebration of the lengthening of the day and the promise of the return of spring, just as Easter is fertility festival celebrating rebirth in springtime around the vernal equinox . the symbols can mean whatever you want them to mean and the meaning of the holiday is whatever you make it out to be in your own mind. There is nothing "wrong" with having fun or celebrating things that people were dependent on for survival. |
Coy
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Anonymous Coward User ID: 55611245 United States 11/27/2019 04:14 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 78200818 United States 11/27/2019 04:20 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | it is an interesting truth that the killing of Jesus took place on a FRIDAY on eve of the "Passover" which itself had it's origins in the fertility festival and tied to the phases of the moon and vernal equinox, it takes place on the first full moon after the vernal equinox, modern Christian Easter always occurs on the first Sunday after the paschal full Moon and closely corresponds with Passover , as Christmas does with Hanukah , and since all of the j wish holidays are tied to the phases of the moon, does that mean their god was the moon and they themselves were pagans and astrologers? perhaps.. |
tamaralori
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~Natalie~
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