Challenge to atheists and evolutionists to find 3 things *Challenge is now open to all*

He can make an ant, and you, and me, but can't talk to us, or can't make a body for himself to inhabit? Why am I questioning a reject of God?

Everything coming from nothing, even more of something else. How does the universe make sense at all to you? Lol

You're so ignorant of your own ignorance that everything makes sense except God.

It makes perfect sense to me. And at the same time, even much more than when you put a God into the equation.

My reasoning is lacking logic? You just said that Yahweh, an omnipotent being, that split the red sea and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, put a freckle on my nuts so that we could have this conversation. If I lack logic, you're a raving lunatic.

You're just playing a word game. Having a cause and having a purpose are not the same thing. The oil stain was not put there for a purpose. I can give it a purpose by talking about it, or turning it into art, sure.

I've argued with a lot of theists, but this is some of the most outrageous sophistry I've ever heard.

The universe is the effect. What caused it?

I didn't say having a cause and having a purpose were the same thing. So what was your question?

You're getting soft buddy.. Is it dawning on you you're losing a battle against logos? You gave up refuting and turned to ad hominem.

Last Edited by Jesus is also the Father God on 12/05/2019 07:03 AM

In a vacuum, things can exist. This “space” for where the Multiverse exists is always been a ‘playing ground’ for all of what can occur. Life (in general terms) is one.
An order all by itself created everything (I'm not talking about this "space", which has always been). A causation. It is not God.

I have almost zero interest in calling this God, but if you so desire, fine, you can call it that.

Last Edited by Lord Vishnu on 12/05/2019 07:04 AM

How do you that your specific god exists, and how do you know that everything that exists was created for a purpose?

Before space, matter, and time, what cause space time and matter?

You speak of the universe as a sort of sandbox of things to be created in, but more things can exist without order than things which are bound to and by order. More can occur without the laws of physics than with them. Being bound to laws restricts that which could exist without such a restriction.

Order created order is what you deduce. Is that first order greater in power than the second order it created?

I'll add this, because I exist within order, I'd say that the first order is not order but beyond order, in fact from my perspective disorder, yet it can and did create order. All things whatsoever exist simultaneously outside of time, and space, and matter, being, yet as though made, but not made from our perspective. I'll also add this, that First Order, though disorderly to me, is order unto itself.

Last Edited by Jesus is also the Father God on 12/05/2019 07:14 AM

I know everything exists for a purpose because I can deduce a purpose for anything, and it is apparent without knowing the laws of physics that all things are bound to order.

My God Jesus Christ proved and proves himself to be the God who claimed to be the cause of creation.

Also R3D___, is that first order intelligent? I asked if it is more powerful than what it created/caused, now I ask if it is more intelligent than that which it made/caused?

I asked how you know. Saying 'it is' is not a reason. And you're criticizing my logic?

Just because you deduce a purpose doesn't mean it was created for that reason. You're essentially claiming to be infallible.

R3D___, you said an order all by itself created creation. Please describe that order. You obviously have some idea of it, can you give any more insight regarding it?

I digress by adding that you don't want to call it "God", you could call it "Jesus".

Disprove that the purpose of anything named is to be named and talked about. Start with something.

I have a feeling you debate philosophy at bars.

You just committed a logical fallacy called 'shifting the burden of proof.'

I'll gladly admit I can't disprove that. I also can't disprove that bigfoot is eating spaghetti on the dark side of the moon. Does that mean it's true? No.

If you're claiming it is true, then it's your burden to prove it. Without evidence either way, you have no logical justification to accept that everything was made for a purpose.

Every single thing you just asked for is a matter of perspective, hence a trolling post.

I asked you to find evidence of 3 things. You did, but now say you can't and act like you won't. I challenged you, you did not challenge me. The burden of proof is on you. I already presuppose everything to have a purpose, assert nothing is truly random, and nothing happens by chance, not even the existence of the universe. If you disagree, show some evidence. I cannot find evidence to disprove my presuppositions, maybe you can. Not sure how you how thought you could turn my challenge against me, oh wait, your reasoning is still illogical, NOW that still makes sense.

Typical questions fanatics always make. They are funny! Why? Well, they are always loaded questions based on the perspective of what they think evolution is. Its a little confusing, because they don't even know it themselves, but basically for the fanatics, evolution is a "soup" mixing abiogenesis, cosmology and evolution itself. Since they don't have a clue about any of these fields, for them its all in the same. Understandable, very few(if any) of them are graduated and even less in a proper scientific field. And more often than not, even high school is nothing but "indoctrination" for them. So yeah, its almost impossible to reason with them, fanatics know not what reason is, therefore a waste of time. There are two ways of dealing with fanatics: Mock(that's what fools are for, be mocked at) or put them in their place(ignorance is to be pointed out, but they see it as trying to "diminish" them). Combinations of these are also effective, if you try to reason, you will only get mad and lower yourself onto their level.

Hey you agree with me! You just proved my point.

Something without purpose, something random, and something by chance are all perspectives. You have deduced the same logical conclusions, so how is it a trolling post when the other guy can't deduce the same? He still thinks something is actually without purpose (but can't name it), and that something is actually random (and believes it (rolling dice)), and something can happen by chance (but won't name it).

If it is not actually a matter of perspective then how does anyone know that, surely there must be evidence somewhere?!

The questions are directed at atheists and evolutionists because they don't believe in God. If they consider this for awhile they may logically deduce that there is a God. That is my goal, that is my effort. Anyone can consider this and expand their thinking.

R3D___ jumped ship.

BRIEF said people who are quick to get angry are emotionally and intellectually inferior. I am not angry, not sure why questioning anyone's belief structure or lack thereof should piss them off, but I think if they did it's because they're insecure about what they believe or not believe. I lord over no one. I look down on no one.

LOL!! Just proved my point! Fanatics are so predictable and silly! And that's the funny part!

LOL!! Just proved my point! Fanatics are so predictable and silly! And that's the funny part!

What would you have me to know? Try learning me something.

"I learn you" then! Evolution, abiogenesis and cosmology are not the same. There! We gotta go slow.

I believe you. Now what about the challenge from the op?

Ok, I see the game you're playing. Beg the question/shift the burden of proof.

I have no reason to think that every oil stain is placed there intentionally by God for a purpose. But I can't disprove that. You can't prove it has a purpose, you can't disprove that it has no purpose. But you presuppose it. Just because.

In this scenario, one of us believes something without a reason, and it's not me.

I can show you things that are random by the dictionary definition, or the product of chance, but I will agree that the outcome is determined by natural laws and a chain of cause and effect. Some Quantum phenomena does appear to be truly 'random', without any detectable cause, but it's possible there are causes outside of human perception.

Congratulations. I can never answer your challenge to your satisfaction. Even if something truly was created without a purpose, and I showed it to you, I could never disprove your presupposition. This is what scientists call an unjustifiable hypothesis.

You're still not one step closer to providing evidence for your god.

*unfalsifiable hypothesis

Proved my point again! LOL!

This thread, for one.