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WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month

 
The Gathering Storm

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07/05/2020 08:49 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
AFP news agency @AFP
3m
Britain's police said Sunday that revellers who packed London's Soho district the night pubs finally reopened made it "crystal clear" that drunk people cannot socially distance
White Sailboat

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07/05/2020 08:53 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
DR what do you think?


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79110694

 Quoting: deplorable recollector



First, the guy is a know leftist, and while I agree with many of its principles and ideas (I have been following him for years in the early 2000's), whenever I see ANYONE having a political approach to a MEDICAL ISSUE, I dismiss it.


Is it possible that what he is saying to be true?


Yes.


DOES IT MATTER?


NO.





It matter not if this is a planned global economic collapse, or redistribution of wealth, or taking down Trump, or an actual, deadly and aggressive pandemic.


The end result is the same : we're fucked.



The economy was bound to come to a crash, at some point. The virus just made it come earlier, be it a planned or non-planned event.


People are losing time arguing on things that have no effect on the outcome, asking questions like :

Who did it? Why? What is the end goal? Is it real? Is it not? Are they targeting Trump? Is China taking over?


All these questions are completely useless, because there are multiple answers, and except wasting time, we won't get anything trying to find THE REAL answer...because we won't find THE REAL answer, only the answer that SUITS our own beliefs.


I am trying, and largely succeeding in AVOIDING to ask such questions, AVOIDING to look at the CAUSE, and only focus on the EFFECT...because the EFFECT is what matters.


I cannot control the cause, I cannot control the effect either.


But I can absolutely prepare much better if I focus on the EFFECT, which is REAL and PALPABLE, instead losing time focusing on the CAUSE, which nobody knows it and it have ZERO impact on my preps.


clappa
Red Hot Chilean Pepe

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07/05/2020 09:51 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
I had the same discussion this week, about how not lethal is the virus and how we are “overreacting”. Is so sad that people can’t see the real problem and focus only on the death rate.
All great truths begin as Blasphemies.
G.B.S.

GLP is like a diamond mine of information, in the sense that you have to shovel mountains of crap to find the diamonds, but it's still worth the pain.
UKguy
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07/05/2020 09:55 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
clappa

Effect not cause - prepare.
NawtyBits

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07/05/2020 10:06 AM

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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
[link to www.texastribune.org (secure)]

Ten out of the 12 hospitals in Texas' Rio Grande Valley are now full

Hospitals in the Rio Grande Valley sounded the alarm Saturday as their beds filled to capacity with COVID-19 patients and some began transferring patients elsewhere.

Ten of 12 hospitals in Hidalgo, Cameron and Starr counties are now on “diversion status,” which means all their beds are full, although Hidalgo County spokesperson Carlos Sanchez said it’s a “fluid situation so diversions may be lifted at any moment.”

Sanchez said the state has sent medical personnel and supplies to the area to help overwhelmed hospitals, “but personnel remains a concern.”

In the Rio Grande Valley, the number of people hospitalized with COVID-19 has more than tripled over the past two weeks, from 253 people on June 22 to 820 on July 4.
WWJBD-What Would Jimmy Buffett Do

"If it's wet and not yours, don't touch it." Oregon H1N1 Summit speaker
Red Hot Chilean Pepe

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07/05/2020 10:26 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
[link to www.texastribune.org (secure)]

Ten out of the 12 hospitals in Texas' Rio Grande Valley are now full

Hospitals in the Rio Grande Valley sounded the alarm Saturday as their beds filled to capacity with COVID-19 patients and some began transferring patients elsewhere.

Ten of 12 hospitals in Hidalgo, Cameron and Starr counties are now on “diversion status,” which means all their beds are full, although Hidalgo County spokesperson Carlos Sanchez said it’s a “fluid situation so diversions may be lifted at any moment.”

Sanchez said the state has sent medical personnel and supplies to the area to help overwhelmed hospitals, “but personnel remains a concern.”

In the Rio Grande Valley, the number of people hospitalized with COVID-19 has more than tripled over the past two weeks, from 253 people on June 22 to 820 on July 4.
 Quoting: NawtyBits


Then begins the “triage” to send people with less chances back home to die. We already saw it in Italy and Spain. Chile has so far been able to avoid it by constantly shipping and shuffling patients along the country, and with a much more severe enforcing of the lockdown.

Last Edited by Red Hot Chilean Pepe on 07/05/2020 10:27 AM
All great truths begin as Blasphemies.
G.B.S.

GLP is like a diamond mine of information, in the sense that you have to shovel mountains of crap to find the diamonds, but it's still worth the pain.
Anonymous Coward
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07/05/2020 10:33 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
When looking at the main Covid thread, and see how many people STILL focusing on the death rate of the virus, it only reinforces my prediction that this virus, with a tremendous help of human stupidity, is going to K.O. the society by the end of this year.


Politicians also have the same wrong approach, looking at the death rate of the virus itself, unable to project the impact of what the number of OVERALL deaths if the hospitals are full.



Long time ago, in the first weeks of this thread, I said multiple times that what we need the virus to mutate into a more deadly and less contagious strain, and the worst case scenario would be a less deadly but more contagious strain, if we want to avoid a nightmare.


The new strain is more contagious and less deadly, and I predicted that by the end of July-beginning of August, this new strain will be the dominant one.


This is the nightmare that we wanted to avoid, but apparently, someone or something thinks otherwise.



Many here on this thread understand perfectly what I mean when I say that the virus, if more contagious and less deadly, will actually cause up to 10 times more deaths then if the virus is more deadly, but less contagious.


For those who still don't understand, I will use my city as an example, because it is among the highest rated hospitals in Romania, with a bed capacity that is similar to Germany, which is the EU country with most hospital beds per 1,000 people.



My city hospital have a 1,300 bed capacity, and serves almost 160,000 people, which means it have a 8.2 beds per 1,000 people.


At any given time, the hospital is roughly 60-70% full, which means that around 800 beds are always occupied, with 500 beds unoccupied.


The Chinese virus strikes my city.


Let's see what will happen, using 2 scenarios : a highly contagious and less deadly vs a less contagious and more deadly virus.


I am going to assume that the hospital will not be moving patients to other hospitals, and all patients, covid or not, will be served by the hospital.


I will use a 2% death rate and a 10% hospitalization rate, which is what was in the first wave, a 2 week hospitalization period as a median value, like in the first wave, and a linear (to keep it simple) infection rate of 0.1% / day.


So, we got 160 cases / day, with 16 of them hospitalized, for 2 weeks.

The 500 extra beds can handle 35 patients / day, for 2 weeks.

After 14 days, 224 beds will be occupied by Covid patients.


Now, if he infection rate is linear, the hospital can easily deal with the input of patients. But the infection rate is not linear, and it was proven that if lock-downs are not implemented, it doubles every 5 days, or every 10 days, in the best case scenario.

In 10 days, the infection rate goes to 0.2%, which means 320 cases / day , with 32 being hospitalized.

Also, after the first 10 days, 160 Covid patients are already hospitalized, and in the next 4 days, 128 more patients will be hospitalized.


After 14 days, 288 beds will be occupied with Covid patients.

Of those 288 patients, 2% will die, which is 5-6 people.


What will happen in the next 2 weeks : in 10 days, 320 beds will be occupied by Covid patients, the infection rate doubles to 0.4% (640 new cases, with 64 hospitalized), and for the next 4 days, an additional 256 patients will need hospitalization.


Now we have a big problem : we have 500 beds and we need to hospitalize 585 patients.

Of those 500 hospitalized, 2% will die, which is 10 people...but how many of the 85 that need hospitalization, but can't have it, will die?

Whatever the answer, those will be extra deaths from the virus AND lack of healthcare, but for the sake of argument, 2% will die from the virus and 10% because they don't have access to medical care.

That would be another 10 people, for a total of 20 deaths.

And this is after A SINGLE MONTH, with an infection rate of 0.1% that doubles every 10 days, which is pretty much what happened AFTER 3 weeks of lock-downs.



The new strain is believed to be 3 to 6 times more contagious, and I was personally expecting the second wave to be 3 to 5 times bigger then the first.


In the case of my city, a second wave that reaches 0.3% infection rate after a couple weeks, so 480 cases / day, of which 48 need hospitalization, in 10 days we will ran out of hospital beds.


The death rate drops 3 times, from 2% to 0.6%.


In 1 month, we would face 14,400 cases, of which 1,440 need hospitalization, but only 1,000 will have access to healthcare.

0.6% of those 1,000 hospitalized will die directly from the virus, which is 6 people...but how many of the 440 that need hospitalization, but can't have it, will die?


Again, for the sake of argument, 0.6% of them will die from the virus and 10% because of lack of medical care.

And that is another 46 people, for a total of 52 dead.



As you can see, if the virus is 3 times more contagious and 3 times less deadly, with a constant hospitalization rate, in the first case (less contagious, more deadly) we will end up with 20 dead, and in the second case (more contagious, less deadly) we will end up with 52 dead.


We can play with the death rate all day long, the matter of the fact is that the death rate from the virus itself is IRRELEVANT for the big picture.



In the case of this virus, the Chinese virus, the MORE DEADLY the virus is, the LESS DEAD people we will have, and the MORE CONTAGIOUS the virus is, the MORE DEAD people we will have.



A second round of nation-wide lock-downs is unavoidable, and I see it in the U.S. no late then mid-August, and for Europe, no late then mid-September.


Even if the infection rate is like 1% (which is HUGE, but VERY POSSIBLE, if no lock-downs in this second wave), and the death rate from the virus to be ZERO (no one dies from the virus as long as it have access to medical care) it would take 160 DAYS for my city to be infected, but in those 160 days, the number of dead would be massive, well over 10,000 dead.


The writing on the wall is crystal-clear to me : the second round of nation-wide lock-downs is inevitable, and it will be before September in the U.S., and before October in Europe.

And even those dates are highly optimistic.


I think we can all agree what will this mean for the economy and the future of our civilization.



I am not arguing for or against lock-downs.


I am simply presenting a number-based, highly probable scenarios, where lock-downs prevent a massive amount of deaths, but destroy the economy, or where we have a massive amount of deaths, and the economy is still destroyed, albeit not as much.


The dreamers may think that localized lock-downs might be the middle path, saving lives and the economy, as much as possible...the problem is that the new strain is so highly contagious, while STILL presenting a 2 week+ incubation period, the localized lock-downs will come in TOO LATE, and we will virtually need to lock-down so many cities and areas, that we might actually end up WORSE then a nation-wide lock-down.

 Quoting: deplorable recollector


DR you will never know how much a stranger on the other side of the world truly appreciates and respects your time and dedication for these words. As a trained epidemiologists/biostatistician, I am exhausted and wore out trying to explain the numbers along with the gross fallacy of focusing on the death rate in conjunction with the narrow view of the respiratory issues being all there is to be concerned about.

You gave me back some sanity today. Thank you so very much. Please be well and stay safe.
 Quoting: White Sailboat



clappa
Oxi moran

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07/05/2020 11:47 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
Any more Sunday updates?
Anonymous Coward
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07/05/2020 12:35 PM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
One of the common misperceptions of conspiracy theorists is that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. The global f*ck up that China started with some lapse in judgement but that was based on idiotic American Immunology that funded the and seeded the Chinese like fools. The global problem is narcissistic, idiots in charge. Like Jeff Epstein. He was buddies with all the top minds at Harvard and the most brilliant untrained epidemiologist Bill Gates.

This is either a 100 year (turmoil and system
change) 200 year (revolution) or 1000 year (destruction of civilization as we have known it) type event. I will be ready for anything in my light craft waiting on the Weshallsee.
Anonymous Coward
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07/05/2020 02:05 PM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
Excellent analysis, DR!

Thank you so much!
Guythu

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07/05/2020 03:06 PM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
DR-
In your opinion, is it possible to make an estimate as to the impact to Global GDP? -30%, More?
Anonymous Coward
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07/05/2020 06:37 PM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
Hi DR thanks very much for the updates! Can I ask what your opinion is on the outcome for the Czech Republic in the coming weeks and months? It seems people here think it has somehow missed this country and will fizzle out.

I do know better than that thanks to your information, but I’m still very curious as to how you think it will develop here and when? I’ve also kept a keen eye on the world o meter data and there is a clear increase here, albeit in low figures, also it seems they have removed some of the daily death rates after initially adding them.

Thanks atb!
Anonymous Coward
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07/05/2020 08:01 PM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
Thanks Dr!
Any prediction for Brazil? Some places like Rio de Janeiro and Manus are better now after a giant first wave of covid, now the virus is getting into the rural areas.
deplorable recollector  (OP)

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07/06/2020 07:08 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
DR-
In your opinion, is it possible to make an estimate as to the impact to Global GDP? -30%, More?
 Quoting: Guythu



In my opinion, an estimate can be done, for the first half of the year.


However, the institutions that can make such estimates, will come up with different results.


I, personally, did not bothered to made an estimate on the global GDP losses, because this pandemic is far from over, but I would say that the losses are already big enough to send us into a big ass depression sometime in November-December.


If a second round of lock-downs is coming, which I believe it will, but politicians might roll the dice and not do it, the economic losses will be enormous, and will last many years until recovery.
Leonero

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07/06/2020 07:08 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
Thanks DR
I always read your reports and analysis like I used to do, in the early stages of the pandemic, with the articles of the so-called "experts" on mainstream media...

Well, I must say that you are way more accurate, clear and straightforward than any other of those "experts".

So, again, thanks!

Unfortunately I report bad news from Italy (that confirm your predictions/calculations).

We are now probably facing a 2nd phase/wave of the pandemic.

Lombardy is still an epicenter but more clusters [we call them "hotbeds" ("focolai" in italian)] are found everyday in different regions and cities of Italy (Mondragone - Campania region / Rome / Vicenza - Veneto region / etc). Cities that are very distant from each other.

New positive cases (nationally) tend to swing between +190 / +250 every single day.
The R0 index, too, raised again over 1 in the affected regions.


Mortality rate decreased and (as you told us) the virus became more contagious.
Multiple studies confirm that there are at least two different strains circulating in Italy: one is dominant and is more contagious.
(Another study also found that the virus was circulating in Lombardy already in the first two weeks of January).


As for the Government reaction, well... I don't expect any more lockdowns...
President of Campania region tried to lockdown a building in Mondragone city (new small epicenter), previously occupied by homeless people, illegal immigrants, and so on... And clashes with police forces occured...

I guess government will not be able to enforce more lockdowns if we will face a third wave...


However, DR, please continue to update us with your reports.
This thread is a light in the dark.
Although I think the situation is bad and can get worse, you give us the opportunity to be prepared.

Last Edited by Leonero on 07/06/2020 07:17 AM
Ad Omnia Paratus
deplorable recollector  (OP)

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07/06/2020 07:10 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
Hi DR thanks very much for the updates! Can I ask what your opinion is on the outcome for the Czech Republic in the coming weeks and months? It seems people here think it has somehow missed this country and will fizzle out.

I do know better than that thanks to your information, but I’m still very curious as to how you think it will develop here and when? I’ve also kept a keen eye on the world o meter data and there is a clear increase here, albeit in low figures, also it seems they have removed some of the daily death rates after initially adding them.

Thanks atb!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76394140



Czechs did very well in the first wave. I think they will do well for the second, if they apply the same measures as they did in the first.


Which is nation-wide lock-down, closed borders, mandatory masks and other measures.


If they won't, well, the impact of the second wave will be much stronger.

Last Edited by Recollector on 07/06/2020 07:14 AM
deplorable recollector  (OP)

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07/06/2020 07:13 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
Thanks Dr!
Any prediction for Brazil? Some places like Rio de Janeiro and Manus are better now after a giant first wave of covid, now the virus is getting into the rural areas.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79035121



Brazil is still not at the peak. It will get worse, at least for the next 2 weeks, speaking in number of cases.


As for epicenters, that depends on many factors.


But as long as Brazil is not locking-down, cases will still go up.

Last Edited by Recollector on 07/06/2020 07:13 AM
Northlights

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07/06/2020 07:21 AM

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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
Here undertakers have less business than normal. Knock on wood
Because of people distancing from elders maybe.
deplorable recollector  (OP)

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07/06/2020 07:48 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
Thanks DR
I always read your reports and analysis like I used to do, in the early stages of the pandemic, with the articles of the so-called "experts" on mainstream media...

Well, I must say that you are way more accurate, clear and straightforward than any other than those "experts".

So, again, thanks!

Unfortunately I report bad news from Italy (that confirm your predictions/calculations).

We are now probably facing a 2nd phase/wave of the pandemic.

Lombardy is still an epicenter but more clusters [we call them "hotbeds" ("focolai" in italian)] are found everyday in different regions and cities of Italy (Mondragone - Campania region / Rome / Vicenza - Veneto region / etc). Cities that are very distant from each other.

New positive cases (nationally) tend to swing between +190 / +250 every single day.
The R0 index, too, raised again over 1 in the affected regions.


Mortality rate decreased and (as you told us) the virus became more contagious.
Multiple studies confirm that there are at least two different strains circulating in Italy: one is dominant and is more contagious.
(Another study also found that the virus was circulating in Lombardy already in the first two weeks of January).


As for the Government reaction, well... I don't expect any more lockdowns...
President of Campania region tried to lockdown a building in Mondragone city (new small epicenter), previously occupied by homeless people, illegal immigrants, and so on... And clashes with police forces occured...

I guess government will not be able to enforce more lockdowns if we will face a third wave...


However, DR, please continue to update us with your reports.
This thread is a light in the dark.
Although I think the situation is bad and can get worse, you give us the opportunity to be prepared.
 Quoting: Leonero




Nice string of info man. Thanks.


I am expecting the second wave in Europe to start at the end of July-beginning of August.


There are multiple signs that point to this, and also multiple signs that the number of epicenters this time will be much higher.


The EU, as a political body, is useless and most of the times does bad then good things for Europeans.
By sheer luck, the Central and Eastern Europe decided to lock-down way before the situation got bad, like in Italy, Spain, France, the U.K., Belgium, all Western EU nations.


And such, the first wave was kept under control in most of Europe. Germany was hit as bad as France, it's just they don't reported most Covid-19 deaths, because they rather report the underlying health issue as the cause of death.


What worries me a lot, is that Europe is at much higher risk then the U.S., for the second wave.

The U.S. have a chance to "push" the third wave into November, if they lock-down by mid-August, which I expect to be the case. Hence, the U.S., if a third lock-down is needed for the third wave, can take place in January and February, 2 months that are historically low (compared to the other 10 months of the year) in terms of trade, tourism, production, traveling, etc.


Europe is lagging 4-5 weeks behind the U.S., for the second wave, which puts a potential lock-down in mid-September. The problem is that a mid-September lock-down in Europe might not be able to "push" the third wave in December, and risks that the third wave comes on top of the second wave, which will extend the mid-September lock-down all the way to December or later.


That would be catastrophic for the economy of EU.


There are indeed 2 major strains circulating in the world right now. The old one, which was in the first wave, is still the dominant one, with higher death rate and a fairly high contagion rate.

The new one, is much more contagious, like a lot more contagious, and probably half as deadly as the first one.


Based on my model numbers, I expect the new strain to become dominant in the U.S. by the end of July, and in Europe by the end of August.




People will accept a new round of lock-downs, because as I said weeks ago, when the second wave will hit, the politicians will LET IT ROLL as long as possible, but that will mean a hell in the hospitals and everyone who NOW doesn't know someone close who got the virus, will know in August.


When the situation will be really bad, with hospitals full, with many people ill, the population, in general, will accept a new lock-down.


Many will not, and even those who will, might not accept it for too long.


The risks are high that at some point, in the middle of the pandemic, people might just say "fuck it", and just rebel, ignore, protest, riot, against the new lock-down round.



How people will react to the pandemic, will be essential. From the start I have said that people's reaction will be the reason for this virus to either be brought under control, or not.


The worst is YET to come, and it is NOT the second wave.



It's the winter.

In the Winter (in the Northern hemisphere), a number of events will take place : the pandemic will be in full swing, a new round of lock-downs and the economic impact of all the job losses and economic losses of the first half of the year will really hit.


That is period that really worries me.
Anonymous Coward
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07/06/2020 08:05 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
It's the winter.

In the Winter (in the Northern hemisphere), a number of events will take place : the pandemic will be in full swing, a new round of lock-downs and the economic impact of all the job losses and economic losses of the first half of the year will really hit.


That is period that really worries me.
 Quoting: deplorable recollector



i agree this winter will be the key. im calculating hospitalization rates for the current usa wave and florida is just 0.5-1,5% probably because decreased viral load due to more uv light, higher temp and people outside.

if winter goes back to nyc numbers we know its game over. if it stays current florida rates it mutates to be less serious and we can close this thread in 6 months.
BeelzeBob

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07/06/2020 11:39 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
Another great breakdown, thanks DR.

One case analysis that might be interesting is what the death rate is when hospitalization is totally omitted. That is a region or country that becomes infected and no treatment is offered at all.

It would probably almost be impossible to isolate this but some areas with weak healthcare systems could come close. The problem is that if they don't have the healthcare, they probably won't have the ability to track numbers either. Although you could do a general comparative death rate over time to see if it changes significantly during the estimated waves of infection.

Having this death rate number would give the pure kill rate of humans vs. virus in the wild. If everything collapses economically and socially in several countries, we may eventually arrive at this point (humans vs. virus with no help) no matter what path we take.

Last Edited by BeelzeBob on 07/06/2020 11:40 AM
I'm not from Canada, not that there's anything wrong with that.....
Anonymous Coward
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07/06/2020 02:12 PM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
Op thank you very much for your work

I fear here in Italy the number of tests is too low... Moreover the greatest part of the positives are asymptomatic so it's very difficult find and test them
Anonymous Coward
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
Op let me ask you... What do you think about the virus and the sea? Is it safe? I've read about the virus found in water in some city... And I doubt some sea salt can kill the virus

I don't know whether to go or not to the beach... And I have begun to suspect that many Americans could have been infected in water
Anonymous Coward
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07/06/2020 02:30 PM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
OP,

I suppose the first plague (covid) wasn't deadly enough?

What do you think of this:

Thread: And now introducing for the 2nd time round...The BUBONIC PLAGUE!!!!! Spreading now in China! Coming to a town near you soon!
Leonero

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07/06/2020 03:05 PM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
Op thank you very much for your work

I fear here in Italy the number of tests is too low... Moreover the greatest part of the positives are asymptomatic so it's very difficult find and test them
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79116634


Hello, italian brother.
Also remember that we are now receiving a lot of positive cases from abroad (mainly from Bangladesh).
Sadly, the only thing that our "great" politics will do is forcing foreigners to stay in a hotel for 24 hours, testing them and, if positive, telling them to stay at home/pay for a room/whatever they want without any real control/check on them... You may know how it works in our country (because every region post a FAQ on their institutional website).
If you are a positive case, you are told to stay at home and nobody will come to your house / hotel room to check if you are respecting the rules... Just a call from a doctor assigned for that discrict.

I fear that this "higly democratic" strategy will lead us to a very bad scenario...

PS: the same applies to italian positive cases with mild symptoms, so, please, don't take my message as a vent of "racist anger". I am angry with the politics that lead our nation.
Ad Omnia Paratus
Leonero

User ID: 79115144
Italy
07/06/2020 04:13 PM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
Thanks DR
I always read your reports and analysis like I used to do, in the early stages of the pandemic, with the articles of the so-called "experts" on mainstream media...

Well, I must say that you are way more accurate, clear and straightforward than any other than those "experts".

So, again, thanks!

Unfortunately I report bad news from Italy (that confirm your predictions/calculations).

We are now probably facing a 2nd phase/wave of the pandemic.

Lombardy is still an epicenter but more clusters [we call them "hotbeds" ("focolai" in italian)] are found everyday in different regions and cities of Italy (Mondragone - Campania region / Rome / Vicenza - Veneto region / etc). Cities that are very distant from each other.

New positive cases (nationally) tend to swing between +190 / +250 every single day.
The R0 index, too, raised again over 1 in the affected regions.


Mortality rate decreased and (as you told us) the virus became more contagious.
Multiple studies confirm that there are at least two different strains circulating in Italy: one is dominant and is more contagious.
(Another study also found that the virus was circulating in Lombardy already in the first two weeks of January).


As for the Government reaction, well... I don't expect any more lockdowns...
President of Campania region tried to lockdown a building in Mondragone city (new small epicenter), previously occupied by homeless people, illegal immigrants, and so on... And clashes with police forces occured...

I guess government will not be able to enforce more lockdowns if we will face a third wave...


However, DR, please continue to update us with your reports.
This thread is a light in the dark.
Although I think the situation is bad and can get worse, you give us the opportunity to be prepared.
 Quoting: Leonero




Nice string of info man. Thanks.


I am expecting the second wave in Europe to start at the end of July-beginning of August.


There are multiple signs that point to this, and also multiple signs that the number of epicenters this time will be much higher.


The EU, as a political body, is useless and most of the times does bad then good things for Europeans.
By sheer luck, the Central and Eastern Europe decided to lock-down way before the situation got bad, like in Italy, Spain, France, the U.K., Belgium, all Western EU nations.


And such, the first wave was kept under control in most of Europe. Germany was hit as bad as France, it's just they don't reported most Covid-19 deaths, because they rather report the underlying health issue as the cause of death.


What worries me a lot, is that Europe is at much higher risk then the U.S., for the second wave.

The U.S. have a chance to "push" the third wave into November, if they lock-down by mid-August, which I expect to be the case. Hence, the U.S., if a third lock-down is needed for the third wave, can take place in January and February, 2 months that are historically low (compared to the other 10 months of the year) in terms of trade, tourism, production, traveling, etc.


Europe is lagging 4-5 weeks behind the U.S., for the second wave, which puts a potential lock-down in mid-September. The problem is that a mid-September lock-down in Europe might not be able to "push" the third wave in December, and risks that the third wave comes on top of the second wave, which will extend the mid-September lock-down all the way to December or later.


That would be catastrophic for the economy of EU.


There are indeed 2 major strains circulating in the world right now. The old one, which was in the first wave, is still the dominant one, with higher death rate and a fairly high contagion rate.

The new one, is much more contagious, like a lot more contagious, and probably half as deadly as the first one.


Based on my model numbers, I expect the new strain to become dominant in the U.S. by the end of July, and in Europe by the end of August.




People will accept a new round of lock-downs, because as I said weeks ago, when the second wave will hit, the politicians will LET IT ROLL as long as possible, but that will mean a hell in the hospitals and everyone who NOW doesn't know someone close who got the virus, will know in August.


When the situation will be really bad, with hospitals full, with many people ill, the population, in general, will accept a new lock-down.


Many will not, and even those who will, might not accept it for too long.


The risks are high that at some point, in the middle of the pandemic, people might just say "fuck it", and just rebel, ignore, protest, riot, against the new lock-down round.



How people will react to the pandemic, will be essential. From the start I have said that people's reaction will be the reason for this virus to either be brought under control, or not.


The worst is YET to come, and it is NOT the second wave.



It's the winter.

In the Winter (in the Northern hemisphere), a number of events will take place : the pandemic will be in full swing, a new round of lock-downs and the economic impact of all the job losses and economic losses of the first half of the year will really hit.


That is period that really worries me.
 Quoting: deplorable recollector


Thank you for your reply DR!
I totally agree with you, also when you speak about EU...
Well, sadly, although we are "European brothers", the only thing that we do as Europeans is paying "shadow" taxes to the BCE... Very poor and not coordinated reaction from Europe (economically and at a welfare level).

And yes... Winter may trigger worse scenarios.
People really don't understand how overwhelmed hospitals can make social and economical situation worse...

When Italy was in total lockdown (and hospitals were overwhelmed) I used to say to my friends: "Imagine that you develop some kind of mild disease that needs the attention of an ER... Do you think that you will get a bed anytime soon?"

And this is just an example...
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deplorable recollector  (OP)

User ID: 73110508
United Kingdom
07/07/2020 09:39 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
I am still positively sure that we can get herd immunity.


Been saying that almost every time this subject was brought up.


However, I have also said that it will take a lot of time, and possibly being infected twice or even 3 times, before powerful and long term antibodies are created.


All the data that we have now shows a very low immunity gain, around 5%, in the general population, even if the number of infected people are above 10%.


The data also shows that the number and lifespan of the antibodies is higher in the patients that were critically ill, and undetectable or extremely low number and lifespan of antibodies in asymptomatic patients.


Obviously, the bigger the viral load, the more severe symptoms, the more antibodies are produced.



Immunity and herd immunity are not only possible, but certain...except that it will take multiple infections before a person gets immunity (especially if the first infection was asymptomatic).


In the grand scheme of things, we are looking at multiple waves before 70% of the population gets infected at least TWICE.



Short term, immunity and herd immunity are not going to make a dent in the second and third wave. This current wave and the next will be massive, unless lock-downs are put in place.


We are, like always, in a catch 22 scenario :

1. if we lock-down again, the economy is going to go down in flames...AND herd immunity will take a helluva lot longer.

2. if we don't lock-down, the economy will still go down in flames, but the herd immunity will be achieved faster.


If we take into consideration that immunity and herd immunity are NOT possible, or it will take 3+ years to get there...we might as well prepare for a medieval lifestyle, in a world with far less people then today.


Again, I see no positive outcome, no matter what we do.


Only a miracle is going to save our civilization.
miabelieves

User ID: 77874365
United States
07/07/2020 10:06 AM

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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
I don't think US will lock down again, not like before. I do see many counties or provinces making masks mandatory though.

Interesting days. The biggest question, to me, is the economy.
Hold on to your undies, it's gonna be a hell of a ride
Red Hot Chilean Pepe

User ID: 76933812
Chile
07/07/2020 10:08 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
I am still positively sure that we can get herd immunity.


Been saying that almost every time this subject was brought up.


However, I have also said that it will take a lot of time, and possibly being infected twice or even 3 times, before powerful and long term antibodies are created.


All the data that we have now shows a very low immunity gain, around 5%, in the general population, even if the number of infected people are above 10%.


The data also shows that the number and lifespan of the antibodies is higher in the patients that were critically ill, and undetectable or extremely low number and lifespan of antibodies in asymptomatic patients.


Obviously, the bigger the viral load, the more severe symptoms, the more antibodies are produced.



Immunity and herd immunity are not only possible, but certain...except that it will take multiple infections before a person gets immunity (especially if the first infection was asymptomatic).


In the grand scheme of things, we are looking at multiple waves before 70% of the population gets infected at least TWICE.



Short term, immunity and herd immunity are not going to make a dent in the second and third wave. This current wave and the next will be massive, unless lock-downs are put in place.


We are, like always, in a catch 22 scenario :

1. if we lock-down again, the economy is going to go down in flames...AND herd immunity will take a helluva lot longer.

2. if we don't lock-down, the economy will still go down in flames, but the herd immunity will be achieved faster.


If we take into consideration that immunity and herd immunity are NOT possible, or it will take 3+ years to get there...we might as well prepare for a medieval lifestyle, in a world with far less people then today.


Again, I see no positive outcome, no matter what we do.


Only a miracle is going to save our civilization.
 Quoting: deplorable recollector


Thanks for bringing this issue today DR. I have reached a similar view in the past weeks and is a rather delicate topic.

I have been thinking that, as certain we are that we are effed both ways, with or without lockdowns, one might as well chose the shortest path through hell. Letting it simply run and kill whoever it might. I don’t say this lightly, I know it’s a brutal approach but, knowing that we are already beyond any measure to avoid the debacle (barring a miracle as you correctly observe), we might as well speed it up in hopes this will at least allow us to start rebuilding, whatever is left, sooner.
All great truths begin as Blasphemies.
G.B.S.

GLP is like a diamond mine of information, in the sense that you have to shovel mountains of crap to find the diamonds, but it's still worth the pain.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 78218817
Argentina
07/07/2020 10:14 AM
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Re: WW3 Europe front. UPDATE page 532 -February 2024, the decisive month
I am still positively sure that we can get herd immunity.


Been saying that almost every time this subject was brought up.


However, I have also said that it will take a lot of time, and possibly being infected twice or even 3 times, before powerful and long term antibodies are created.


All the data that we have now shows a very low immunity gain, around 5%, in the general population, even if the number of infected people are above 10%.


The data also shows that the number and lifespan of the antibodies is higher in the patients that were critically ill, and undetectable or extremely low number and lifespan of antibodies in asymptomatic patients.


Obviously, the bigger the viral load, the more severe symptoms, the more antibodies are produced.



Immunity and herd immunity are not only possible, but certain...except that it will take multiple infections before a person gets immunity (especially if the first infection was asymptomatic).


In the grand scheme of things, we are looking at multiple waves before 70% of the population gets infected at least TWICE.



Short term, immunity and herd immunity are not going to make a dent in the second and third wave. This current wave and the next will be massive, unless lock-downs are put in place.


We are, like always, in a catch 22 scenario :

1. if we lock-down again, the economy is going to go down in flames...AND herd immunity will take a helluva lot longer.

2. if we don't lock-down, the economy will still go down in flames, but the herd immunity will be achieved faster.


If we take into consideration that immunity and herd immunity are NOT possible, or it will take 3+ years to get there...we might as well prepare for a medieval lifestyle, in a world with far less people then today.


Again, I see no positive outcome, no matter what we do.


Only a miracle is going to save our civilization.
 Quoting: deplorable recollector


Hi DR, i dont think herd immunity is possible, i will tell you a case here from Argentina, the patient "130", she is a girl that get infected in Madrid and come to Argentina, here she suffer a lot, cant breath, etc. Now she returned to Madrid to continue her studys and she get tested again and tested NEGATIVE, but the problem is that all the antibodies that she have it, NOW SHE LOOSE IT, NOW SHE CAN GET INFECTED AGAIN.





GLP