Why being a Tribulation Saint is a dangerous second best choice to being Raptured.

Indeed it is as this Chick illustrated tract makes clear.

WHY IS MARY CRYING?... [link to www.chick.com (secure)]

1. Jesus NEVER said "pray to me" NOR "worship me".
2. Jesus NEVER said "pray to / worship" a "trinity".
3. Jesus NEVER said "pray to the Holy Spirit" NOR "worship Holy Spirit".
4. Jesus NEVER said to pray to ANYONE other than the Father.
5. The Holy Spirit NEVER says "I am _______" and you shall ________. Only Jesus and the Father say such.

Not exactly. John, Chapters 1 and 14 clarifies it a bit.

John 14, sorry. the whole chapter pertains.

John 14-1
LET not your heart be troubled: believe in Aloha, and in me believe.
John 14-2
Many are the mansions of my Father's house: and if not, I would have told you; for I go to prepare for you a place.
John 14-3
And if I go to prepare for you a place, I will come again and take you with me, that where I am you also may be.
John 14-4
And whither I go you know, and the way you know.
John 14-5
Thoma saith to him, Our Lord, we know not whither thou goest, and how can we know the way?
John 14-6
Jeshu saith to him, I (am) the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto my Father unless by me.
John 14-7
But if me you had known, my Father also would you have known: and henceforth you know him and have seen him.
John 14-8
Philipos saith to him, Our Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
John 14-9
Jeshu saith to him, All this time have I been with you, and hast thou not known me, Philipé? He who me seeth, seeth the Father; and how sayest thou, Show us the Father?
John 14-10
Believest thou not that I am in my Father and my Father in me? And these words that I speak, I speak not from myself, but my Father who dwelleth in me, he doeth these works.
John 14-11
Believe that I am in my Father and my Father in me; and if not, even on account of the works, believe.
John 14-12
Amen, amen, I say to you, That whosoever believeth in me, these works that I do shall he do also; and more than these shall he do, because I go unto my Father.
John 14-13
And whatsoever you shall ask in my name, I will do for you, that the Father may be glorified in his Son.
John 14-14
And if you shall ask (of) me in my name, I will do.
John 14-15
IF you love me, keep my commandments;
John 14-16
and I will pray of my Father, and another Paraclete will he give you, who will be with you for ever,
John 14-17
the Spirit of truth, he whom the world cannot receive, because it doth not see him, nor know him. But you know him; for with you he dwelleth, and in you is.
John 14-18
I will not leave you orphans; for I will come to you a little after.
John 14-19
And the world seeth me not, but you shall see me; for because I live, you also shall live.
John 14-20
In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
John 14-21
He who hath my commandments and keepeth them is he who loveth me; and he who loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest to him myself.
John 14-22
Jihuda saith to him, (it was not Scarjuta,) My Lord, how to us wilt thou manifest thyself, and not to the world?
John 14-23
Jeshu replied, and said to him, He who loveth me, my word keepeth, and my Father will love him, and unto him we come, and a dwelling-place with him we make.
John 14-24
But he who loveth me not, keepeth not my word. And the word that you hear is not mine, but of the Father who sent me.
John 14-25
These have I spoken with you while I am with you.
John 14-26
But he, the Paraclete, the Spirit of Holiness, whom the Father sendeth in my name, he shall teach you every thing, and he shall remind you of all that I have said to you.
John 14-27
PEACE I leave with you; my peace I give to you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor be afraid.
John 14-28
You have heard what I have told you, that I go, and come to you (again). If you had loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to my Father; for my Father is greater than I.
John 14-29
And now, behold, I have told you while it is not done, that when it has been you may believe.
John 14-30
Henceforth I will not speak with you much; for the ruler of the world cometh, and in me hath he nothing.
John 14-31
But that the world may know that I love my Father, and as my Father hath commanded, so I do. Arise, let us go hence!

Hi dschis1000, it wont be long now I think.

Those passages have NOTHING to do with the statements made above.

Jesus makes it CLEAR that He is the SON OF God.

Jesus has a God - the Father. It's NOT Himself.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not;

for I am not yet ascended to my Father:

but go to my brethren, and say unto them,

I ascend unto my Father, and your Father;

and to my God, and your God.

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Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus

cried with a loud voice, saying,

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say,

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

-------------------------------------------
John 17:3 And this is life eternal,

that they might know thee

the only true God,

and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

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John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world,

that he gave his only begotten Son,

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,

but have everlasting life.

The whole endtimes and tribulation is bunch of lies. people have been saying this for so long it's very absurd now. I once believed it and scared me. it's a bunch of lies again. Keep waiting for somehting that will never come. over 150,000 die a day, for I would say their world is ending. Sigh!

I hope the rapture is today.
I'm ready.

Following God's Will means you have no "choice".

Of course, those Christians who can't find it in their heart to Trust God Fully and Completely have nothing but self-will to rely on.


God chose Moses to be HIS intermediary to the chosen folk. Moses relayed what the chosen were to do so that God's Angel would Pass Over them on the night the egyptian first-borns were to die.

Think God can't Deliver you from satan and his minions?

Christ Witnesses specifically, asking by Prayer, in John 17:15... Asking HIS Father NOT to remove HIS People (Ezekiel 36:26-27 Born-Agains) from the world, but to "Preserve them against all evil".


Just not willing to Trust The Father, or Christ Jesus; are you you rapture-tards?


Easy to overlook John 3:7 "Marvel not that I say unto you: Ye MUST Be Born-Again!"


Without having Father-God "Put HIS Spirit within you" and Enable you to KNOW and DO HIS Will and "Keep MY Statutes" (Ezk 36:26-27); how can you know anything?


What you know about is fear.
You fear for your life, but aren't willing to Trust God; so you die a thousand deaths each day.


If you've given your life completely and fully to God, then you KNOW HIM Personally and Directly. You also KNOW how and when HE Has Delivered you from the evil, Preserved you and maybe your family, Caused evil to Pass Over and not affect you.


If you are God's man or woman, you KNOW there is no greater way to live your life than In Accord With God's Will. You KNOW that your life With God is beyond any concept you ever had of "greater" and "more fulfilling".


It is sad to see the ignorance of Laodicea revealed in this thread. So many that will Claim HIM but never manifested their hearts Unto The Father to be Born-Again.


Christ Jesus Won Father's Victory on calvary.
There is no reason to live in fear, unless you just can't bring yourself to Trust God.


God's Angels of Rev 14:7, 8, & 9 will Give 3 Witnesses:
The first Angel Witnesses to the living and the dead that The Father Is Real and HIS Son Comes In Judgment. This ends the Age Of Faith, and closes The Way Unto The Father.
Angel 2 Witnesses mystery babylon (America) "Gone in one hour".
Angel 3 Witnesses the rise of the man-of-sin.


Lots to be scared of, if you have no Relationship With God.

Knowing HIM and Being Guided through life by HIS Holy Spirit Dwelling within, is Deliverance and Preservation from evil. Lots to KNOW about Living Life In and With God.

Being Delivered from all your fears is just one of HIS Deliverances.


If you would BE HIS; the time to Tell HIM is Now!


Maranatha!!!

Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

..tribulation saints will not be part of the body of Christ

Funny that you should post Luke 21:28 because before that is the tribulation.

Luk 21:12 "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.

All that is already happening, in fact it never stopped. We have a tendency in the West to think that just because it's not been happening in Europe or the USA in recent years that it isn't happening. But right now, today, in many parts of the world severe persecution of Christians, and others, is going on.

No Choice Pal.

That sounds like a preterist view. Most everything in Luke has been fufilled but that would also mean we are in tribulation and have been for a long time.

Personally I think that we are in the period as described by Mark. And please quit with the "Preterist point of view," the other one keeps calling me a Paulist and it's getting bit confusing.

Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

Oh dear!

I am sure glad that choice is God's to make and not yours.

Scriptural PROOF that there IS NOT A PRE-TRIB rapture.

Jesus said....

Matthew 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning of the world
to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened,
there should no flesh be saved:

but for the elect's sake

those days shall be shortened.

This short passage PROVES that Believers - "the elect" - will STILL BE ON EARTH during the Tribulation.

CASE CLOSED.

Case closed in your own addled mind perhaps, but you really need to try harder this argument has more holes in it than in a colander. No one ever said that there will not be believers on the earth during the Great Tribulation so I do wish that you would stop trying to score cheap points with misleading statements.

As I have mentioned numerous times the Elect will be, as best I know a mixture partly of Christians who where not right with the Lord at the time of the Rapture, but who where jolted out of their backslidden ways and turned to the Lord while they where still able. Another part will be people, mainly from countries where Christianity is only a small minority, but who turned to the Lord as they realised that He really is who He says He is, and that their previous religious beliefs where false. And various people of Hebrew heritage, along with the 144,000 male virgins of the 12 tribes of Israel who will be chosen by the Lord.

NONSENSE.

Jesus "collects" the elect from BOTH earth and heaven when He returns.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
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Paul's passage ALSO PROVES this.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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One last point - is that the above passages also validate the "multitudes" at the Fifth Seal of Revelation 6 and the Sixth Seal of Revelation 7.

Great point.

Official Seventh Day Adventist teaching is that the tribulation started some time in the 1700's. So what happened to the rapture then?


"Under the sixth seal of Revelation 6, four great phenomena of nature were to occur. "There was a great earthquake ; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell." Rev. 6:12, 13. We of the second advent movement understand when these four divinely appointed events occurred. They were to come in chronological order after the sixth seal was opened. The first phenomenon, of course, was the Lisbon earthquake of November 1, 1755; and the last, the falling stars of November 13, 1833. Between these two events a dual-natured phenomenon was to occur in the prophetic order of things—the sun was to be darkened and the moon was to withhold her light."

[link to www.ministrymagazine.org (secure)]

Still going strong, all the contention; but ain't we got fun!


The WHOLE Enchilada Witness Given By Christ Jesus, is Matt 22:1-14. "The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a Certain King WHO Made A Wedding Feast For HIS Son".

Up to verse 8, the Witness is all about how those originally invited to attend the Wedding Feast were "unworthy" because they "spitefully slew" The King's Servants whom HE Dispatched to the first invited guests to again ask them to come.

Other guests were found. There was also a wedding crasher who is cast-out by The King. Jesus concludes the Witness with "For many were Called, but few are Chosen!" Matt 22:14


The King sees the crasher has no Wedding Garment, thus is not meant to be there. The Wedding Garment is YOUR Born-Again Heart... Got one of those? One per Ezekiel 36:26-27????

26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Only WAY to be Born-Again is to Come Unto The Father and make your surrender of self, Trusting HIM Fully with all you are and all you ever will be...


The "Very Elect" of Matt 24:21-24 for whom Jesus Says "the days will be shortened" so that satan will be unable to destroy all flesh; are they who Chose-Elected to Answer God's Call and were thereby Born-Again.

Matt 22:1-14 is ALL About The Father... Answering The Call HE Put on your heart; if HE indeed Enabled you to KNOW Who Christ Jesus IS.


The real "rapture" of Christianity is living your life KNOWING God The Father, All The Trinity; and being "Preserved Against All evil"... Living your life KNOWING God and Doing HIS Will, Living In HIS Total Confidence.


If, when Jesus Returns, there is calling to attend HIM "in the air"; well, for sure that will be amazing! Yet, Living In, with, and Through God; KNOWING HIM has already been MORE Than Could Ever Have Expected!



There's no KNOWING, until you are Born-Again...

There's no being aligned with HIM or Doing HIS Will until you are Born-Again.

Why does Jesus Say "Marvel not that I Say unto you: Ye MUST Be Born-Again!"

Yet, you're not or you wouldn't blather on about what you don't understand. God does not accept your terms for Relationship, you have to Come Unto The Father in full surrender and acceptance of HIS Will For You!

If you Claim HIM, and actually can Trust HIM with every aspect of your life: It's Time To Tell HIM So...


Jesus Redeemed us By HIS Blood and Brought The Gospel. Up to you to make your Leap Of Faith and Take Action!

Faith without works (taking action) is dead. Without manifesting our heart Unto The Father our Faith never comes alive!

Most everybody cites the "I am The Truth, The Light, and The Way..." part of John 14:6; but the rest of the verse states: "...No man Cometh Unto The Father but BY ME!"


We "MUST Be Born-Again" and to do so requires "Coming Unto The Father".



God's People are Preserved Against All evil John 17:15...We have no fear of great tribulation; no fear of being killed or losing our lives...

We who are among The Very Elect already gave our lives Unto The Father: HIS Will, not mine, be done!

Born-Agains either DO God's Will, or choose self over God and thereby alienate themselves from HIM.


There's no KNOWING HIM without full surrender.

How much are you really willing To Trust God?

That's what the whole of your life comes down to...



Maranatha!!!

is it really a choice?


For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

(Romans 9:15-16)

Lot's of folks CLAIM to have the Holy Spirit.

Benny Hinn - Kenneth Copeland and others. Do they REALLY?

Many folks claim to have the Holy Spirit but more than likely don't.

Proof of this is simple.

There are folks who claim to have the Holy Spirit who pray to "the trinity". It's not Biblical. Jesus said to pray to the Father.

There are folks who claim to have the Holy Spirit who say Jesus is Father God Himself. It's not Biblical.

There are folks who claim to have the Holy Spirit who say Jesus IS the Holy Spirit. It's not Biblical.

There are folks who claim to have the Holy Spirit who say Father God is a "demiurge". It's not Biblical.

There are folks who claim to have the Holy Spirit who say Jesus will return on a space ship. It's not Biblical.

There are folks who claim to have the Holy Spirit who speak in "tongues", but yet no one knows what they are saying, which Paul warned about.

There are folks who claim to have the Holy Spirit who say the mansions in Father God's house are "planets". It's not Biblical.

There are folks who claim to have the Holy Spirit who say that there is a "Pre-Tribulaion Rapture". It's not Biblical.

See what I mean?

No, not at all. You are simply deluded.

Were you Ezekiel 36:26-27 Born-Again, God The Holy Spirit living within you would Give you Witness of others in whom HE also abides. No guessing about it. Not a matter of being "judgmental", but a matter of The Holy Spirit Giving you a little wink of recognition. If were Born-Again, you would KNOW...

All the other crazy crap you alluded to; well you left out the Bible-thumpers who seek with their intellect (and self-will) rather than being able to See/Hear The Gospel with their heart.

Pretty straight-forward Witness from Jesus about those seeking with head rather than heart. Matt 13:11-15. HE Says there that the reason HE Teaches using parables is so the head-seekers WON'T GET IT! "Lest they be converted and I should (have to) heal them!"


The ONLY Time Jesus uses MUST as a directive is when HE tells Nicodemus, a pharisee who ought to understand "being Born-Again", but doesn't; "Marvel not that I Say unto you: Ye MUST Be Born-Again!"

But let's forget about that... Jesus didn't mean that for you, did HE?

Ezekiel was one of the chief Prophets of the OT. God offers to Israel HIS Witness of The Born-Again Life. Pretty plain there in Ezk 36:25-28... Of course, the Hebrews were not responsive. So, the studied pharisee had no awareness of what God Offered through HIS Prophet....

Believing is just the start. It takes Faith and then confidence in your Faith to Come Unto The Father.

It ain't written out step by step in the Bible because it's all A Matter Of Your Heart!

Once Born-Again, The Father Delivers us from our carnal, stony-hearted nature and enables us to KNOW and DO HIS Will. The Great Truth of my life! Doesn't matter to me what you choose to do with the Truth that I share freely.

"For many were Called, but few are Chosen!"
Not to mention; this is Laodicea!

Oh well....

Yeah I know that, I just forgot to add the Elect from heaven, which of course includes the Raptured.

The above verse does not prove there is no Pre-Trib rapture.

I believe your premise of "the elect" to be flawed.

A simple word search of the bible will show that various groups have been called "The elect" in the bible, from Hebrews, to angels, to Church-age Christians, to Tribulation Saints.

In the case above, it refers to those who have come to follow Christ during the time of the Tribulation/Daniel's 70th Week/the Time of Jacob's Trouble.

Case Re-Opened.

you people are nuts


.