Why being a Tribulation Saint is a dangerous second best choice to being Raptured.

Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp, the last living connection to the Apostles

Irenaeus of Lyons AD 130 - 202


Chapter XXVIII 28

...And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are Saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet...


Chapter XXIX 29

And therefore, when in the end the Ekklesia shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.


My commentary of the excerpt of the above commentary.

He is referencing being caught up at the end of the Tribulation, which is easily shown by looking at more of what he says following.

Chapter XXX. 30:1-4

He begins by refuting the idea that 616 is the number of the man of sin, the wicked one

which brings us to the fourth point of this chapter.

4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition," as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."


that when this man comes we may avoid him

we, not they, tribulation saints as pre-tribbers call them




1. If, however, any shall endeavour to allegorize [prophecies] of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points, and shall be confuted by the teaching of the very expressions [in question]. For example: "When the cities" of the Gentiles "shall be desolate, so that they be not inhabited, and the houses so that there shall be no men in them and the land shall be left desolate." "For, behold," says Isaiah, "the day of the Lord cometh past remedy, full of fury and wrath, to lay waste the city of the earth, and to root sinners out of it." And again he says, "Let him be taken away, that he behold not the glory of God." And when these things are done, he says, "God will remove men far away, and those that are left shall multiply in the earth." "And they shall build houses, and shall inhabit them themselves: and plant vineyards, and eat of them themselves." For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: "And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth," And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, "Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God. O Jerusalem, put off thy robe of mourning and of affliction, and put on that beauty of eternal splendour from thy God. Gird thyself with the double garment of that righteousness proceeding from thy God; place the mitre of eternal glory upon thine head. For God will show thy glory to the whole earth under heaven. For thy name shall for ever be called by God Himself, the peace of righteousness and glory to him that worships God. Arise, Jerusalem, stand on high, and look towards the east, and behold thy sons from the rising of the sun, even to the west, by the Word of that Holy One, rejoicing in the very remembrance of God. For the footmen have gone forth from thee, while they were drawn away by the enemy. God shall bring them in to thee, being borne with glory as the throne of a kingdom. For God has decreed that every high mountain shall be brought low, and the eternal hills, and that the valleys be filled, so that the surface of the earth be rendered smooth, that Israel, the glory of God, may walk in safety. The woods, too, shall make shady places, and every sweet-smelling tree shall be for Israel itself by the command of God. For God shall go before with joy in the light of His splendour, with the pity and righteousness which proceeds from Him.

[link to www.earlychristianwritings.com]

There is a Promise of God awaiting chick tract bot

Amos 9:10

All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor go before us.


The Evil = The Affliction = Jacob's Trouble = The Great Tribulation

no escape for OP

Ephraim The Syrian wrote in the early 4th century, "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Ephraim The Syrian wrote in the early 4th century, "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

So what is your interpretation of the passages noting the dead rising first and then for the people who are living.. one will be left in the field and one taken?

So are you saying the rapture would be resurrection zero since they receive their bodies? I do not find any pre-resurrections in the bible.

I find scripture for the following three resurrections.

Resurrection of christ
Resurrection of the just(1st)
Resurrection of the unjust (2nd)

Act 24:15 "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

I agree with them being in the 1st resurrection but that would include tribulation saints.

Do you believe trib saints are in the 1st resurrection?

Yes. I don't think it's a huge issue to debate over, but yes.

Here's my take on it:

First Resurrection: Good
Second Resurrection: Bad

Pick one to be a part of.

Simple Daily Faith & Living

Trust in the Father and the Son fully
Thank the Father for sending His Son to us
Thank Jesus for doing the Father's Will
Repent to God the Father for your sins
Give thanks for daily blessings...regardless of how simple / "ordinary" they may seem
Love others and forgive them as necessary
Pray for others and help them if possible
Read the Bible and ask Jesus or the Father for guidance concerning it
Pray / ask the Father to show HIS WILL for you to do
Share your "testimonies" of what God and Jesus have done for you

Where OP go?

Who is ephraim the syrian and why does he matter?

You seem to be looking for non-Jesus and non-apostolic early writings, as if they are needed, so I gave you one. There are more, but I just offered one sample.

So does that mean you think the resurrection is an open process lasting years like seven or more to be completed since the rapture happens first and the trib saints 7 years later based on pre-trib theory?

You dont want to be raptured. The wicked are raptured. Read Enoch 1:1. Can't miss it.

Yes, I believe Yahshua was the first of those to be resurrected in the First Resurrection. That is why He is called the First Fruits. He is the first Fruits of the First Resurrection. And that is why the Israelis celebrate that traditional holiday, even though they don't yet realize it.

But they will, in time.

I see your biggest problem is 1cor 15 which says the resurrection happens in the twinkle of an eye and the dead in Christ go first. 1cor 15 is talking about the resurrection and not the rapture but mirrors 1thes 4. This means 1thes 4 is the resurrection also.

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the [b[trumpet[/b[ of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

It is true that many Pre-trib scholars do suggest that those two above verses are the backbone if you will of the Pre-Trib rapture doctrine. I don't see a problem with it. I see a resurrection followed immediately by a rapture. There is no tribulation in view there. There is no Antichrist. There is no Daniel's 70th Week. There is no judgement, no wrath. Yahshua is not setting foot down onto the Mount of Olives. There is no battle of Armageddon in view there. No, it is not talking about the end of the Tribulation and the subsequent resurrection that comes after. Rather it is talking about some other event than that. It is talking about the Pre-trib. rapture.

Considering that Yahweh exists outside of space-time, I also don't have a problem with this compound event happening in the 'twinkle of an eye'. I don't think that it is something that is too big for Yahshua, the Creator of the Universe, to handle.

Yes, I believe Yahshua was the first of those to be resurrected in the First Resurrection. That is why He is called the First Fruits. He is the first Fruits of the First Resurrection. And that is why the Israelis celebrate that traditional holiday, even though they don't yet realize it.

But they will, in time.

:blinker: Here is a very informative and doctrinally sound

video from Melissia of Midnight Hour Oil that I hope will answer many of your questions. It's well worth watching.

~

The Great Escape

Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before The Son of Man.


Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


As it was during the Days of Noah, The wicked were taken, Noah and His family were left.

As it was during the Days of Lot, Lot Escaped, the wicked were destroyed.


Look to the Past to Understand the Future, It's Required. Ecclesiastes 3:15

How did YHWH save His People in the Past from the Egyptians?

He put a cloud and smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night over the camp.

He is going to do this Again, Worldwide

Many Congregations, Each One Having Two of the 144,000 to lead them.



Isaiah 4:5
And YHWH will create upon every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and upon her AssemblieS, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.

Assemblies and Saviors are Plural.

And SaviorS shall come up on Mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be YHWH's. Obadiah 1:21


Deliverers leading the Assemblies of Mount Zion, Like Moses and Aaron were in the first Exodus.

How do we know the Deliverers are the 144,000

Revelation 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the Mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.

Exodus 19:4
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself.

YESHUA said that those accounted worthy will stand before the Son of Man.

The children of Israel stood before Him at Mt Sinai, and heard His Voice

Revelation 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Eagle's Wings, "a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night"

~~


.

Jeremiah 16:14

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that it shall no more be said, YHWH liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

Jeremiah 16:15
But, YHWH Lives, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither He had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Ezekiel 20:33

As I Live, saith Adonai YHWH, surely with a Mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34
And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35
And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you Face to face.

Stand Before the Son of Man Luke 21:36

Brought you unto Myself Exodus 19:4

~~~~~

The AC is in 2 thes2 which also speaks of being united with Christ.

2Th 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,



So you see the gathering happens after the AC.

No, it doesn't.

Think about it. Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice, once for all.

What sacrifice is going on right now, and has been ongoing, other than the Satanic abortion initiative and some pagan animal sacrifice in some regions.

Mankind in the World sacrifice their unborn children on a daily basis for the love of the world.

If abortion is struck down, what exactly is that but removal of an ungodly sacrifice?

The sacrifice within scripture doesn't claim to be a Godly thing.

LET ME REPEAT THAT....

The sacrifice within scripture doesn't claim to be a Godly thing.

Nor can it be, because any sacrifice today, would negate the purpose for Jesus giving His own life. It would make His death in vain. If and when the sacrifice is taken away, who do you think will take offense?

Why do you think world leaders are pushing for abortion funding? Even if America strike abortion down, the Globalist, will enshrine it as a Global right. That is what Agenda 2030/21 is all about.

Look at ~Jazz~ thread pinned right now. Realize what it means. Realize just how close we are!

A barren womb is a desolation. Same sex couples, can't produce offspring either. So is Bill Gates eugenics initiative of sterilization.

BILL GATES AND EUGENICS: THE WORLD NEEDS FEWER PEOPLE [link to tricentennial.us (secure)]

March 28, 2020 BILL GATES AND EUGENICS: THE WORLD NEEDS FEWER PEOPLE
Software billionaire Bill Gates, who previously has advocated the reduction of the human population through the use of vaccines, and his wife Melinda marked the 100th year since the First International Eugenics Congress in London with a “family planning” summit with abortionists and the United Nations. [link to tricentennial.us (secure)]

Maybe it is YOU who can't discern what scripture means.

Some of what I say is speculation, but it is based upon actual events, which are unfolding right now.

I could be wrong. I admit that.

Since scripture clearly states that it is appointed for men to die once, then judgment, What of those who came out of the Graves and made themselves know to the people in Jerusalem, when Jesus was Resurrected?

Hebrews 9
23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Matthew 27
50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Wave offering
The wave offering or sheaf offering or omer offering was an offering made by the priests to God (Exodus 29:24, 26, 27; Leviticus 7:20-34; 8:27; 9:21; 10:14, 15, etc.). The sheaf or omer or wave-offering then became the property of the priests. [link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]

They are the wave sheaf offering.

They are with Jesus NOW.

Jesus is High Priest. Revelation 14 tells us what happened to the people who came out of the graves at His Resurrection. NOTE IT USES PAST TENSE VERBIAGE.

Hebrews 6
13For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, 14Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. 15And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. 17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; 20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Revelation 14:4
“These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”

The women spoken of here are the apostate churches. It is saying they didn't seek after whores, or if you will, false religion.