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Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved

 
Achduke7

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05/28/2020 06:56 PM

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Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Because other posters of pretrib rapture threads like to delete anything they do not agree with even when it is based on scripture here is a pretrib rapture thread for everyone else.

This thread is for those that defend the pretrib rapture. Please only post bible verses that only pertain to the pretrib rapture. If the verse can apply to both pretrib and postrib then do not post it.

Also no videos or websites. If you cannot defend the pretrib rapture on your own then do not post.

Most important be courteous to each other. I will delete posts that are mean and vile. We can be civil and act like brothers in sisters without name calling.

Lastly any bible haters will be purged from this thread and blocked. Do not waste yours and my time.

I would like to see only pretrib scriptures. I do not expect many posts on this thread because I am pretty sure there are no verses that can only be applied to the pretrib rapture doctrine.

Here is a start many use that does not apply to pretrib.

2Thes 2:1-3 1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

The gathering in verse 2Thes 2:1 is about the rapture/harpazo. Before this can happen then the conditions in 2Thes 2:3 must be met first as Paul says.

In 2Thes 2:3 many pretribbers will say the falling away really means depart and that the pretribbers are the ones departing.


If this is a departure then 1Timothy 4:1-3 is the best verses to associate with 2Thes 2:3. 1Timothy 4 is already happening. This along with Antichrist will be the start.

1Timothy 4:1-3 1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

Last Edited by Achduke7 on 09/18/2020 08:05 AM
Achduke
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
The Christian had no power over Satan until Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to indwell the Christian at the Pentecost after His resurrection.

In order for Satan to rule all the world for 42 months the Holy Spirit must be removed.

Since the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the Christian once he has been filled with the Spirit then the Spirit filled Christian must be removed for Satan to receive his promised reign on Earth.
Jake

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05/28/2020 07:27 PM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH WERE, SO TO SHALL THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE??

WHO WERE TAKEN OFF THE EARTH IN THE DAYS OF NOAH???





WHEAT IN THE TARES:


WHO GETS BURNED UP IN THE FIRE??
Achduke7  (OP)

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05/28/2020 07:27 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
The Christian had no power over Satan until Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to indwell the Christian at the Pentecost after His resurrection.

In order for Satan to rule all the world for 42 months the Holy Spirit must be removed.

Since the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the Christian once he has been filled with the Spirit then the Spirit filled Christian must be removed for Satan to receive his promised reign on Earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48881331


If you throw away everything you learned about the pretrib doctrine why do you believe the Holy Spirit must be removed? The Holy Spirit will be around during the tribulation. One of the things that is specified before the tribulation really starts is the 144K being sealed. Reading Paul we know this is sealed with the Holy Spirit. Also the 2 witness must have the Holy Spirit along with all the tribulation saints.
Achduke
Jake

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05/28/2020 07:29 PM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
The Christian had no power over Satan until Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to indwell the Christian at the Pentecost after His resurrection.

In order for Satan to rule all the world for 42 months the Holy Spirit must be removed.

Since the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the Christian once he has been filled with the Spirit then the Spirit filled Christian must be removed for Satan to receive his promised reign on Earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48881331


If you throw away everything you learned about the pretrib doctrine why do you believe the Holy Spirit must be removed? The Holy Spirit will be around during the tribulation. One of the things that is specified before the tribulation really starts is the 144K being sealed. Reading Paul we know this is sealed with the Holy Spirit. Also the 2 witness must have the Holy Spirit along with all the tribulation saints.
 Quoting: Achduke7


What will the 144,000 be used by God to Accomplish?
Achduke7  (OP)

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05/28/2020 07:29 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH WERE, SO TO SHALL THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE??

WHO WERE TAKEN OFF THE EARTH IN THE DAYS OF NOAH???





WHEAT IN THE TARES:


WHO GETS BURNED UP IN THE FIRE??
 Quoting: Jake


Hi Jake,

The evil people were exterminated from the earth.
Noah and his family were in a boat but were not taken from the earth. God can protect his own. He does not need to wisk his people away to protect them.
Achduke
Jake

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05/28/2020 07:32 PM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH WERE, SO TO SHALL THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE??

WHO WERE TAKEN OFF THE EARTH IN THE DAYS OF NOAH???





WHEAT IN THE TARES:


WHO GETS BURNED UP IN THE FIRE??
 Quoting: Jake


Hi Jake,

The evil people were exterminated from the earth.
Noah and his family were in a boat but were not taken from the earth. God can protect his own. He does not need to wisk his people away to protect them.
 Quoting: Achduke7


You are missing my point, those two verses proves there

is no pre tribulation rapture.

The wicked will be taken.
Jake

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05/28/2020 07:32 PM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Two in the field one shall be take one shall be left.

Revelation 14:15 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."


Dr. Fauci's surname in Italian means Sickle

Last Edited by Mikey Likes it on 05/28/2020 07:35 PM
**Watcher**

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05/28/2020 07:42 PM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Jesus said in Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Notice the "AND" (in blue). Jesus says we are to pray to "escape ALL these things" so that would be at the beginning, right? And in order to stand "before the Son of Man (Jesus), we must be where He is.

Jesus is not on the earth in the beginning of the tribulation period so we must go where He is in order to stand before Him...which is not here. Also, since Jesus commanded we watch and pray always to be accounted worthy to escape and you don't believe that He will take His own as an act of mercy and protection (just like He did for LOT before Sodom and Gomorrah), then chances are you are not praying as He commanded. Hope I'm wrong.


Have you ever considered that those who know there is a pre-trib rapture are those God has revealed this to and will be taken. If folks believe this is false doctrine, then maybe it doesn't to those He has not revealed this to. Either way, according to your faith BE IT UNTO YOU.

All that said, He has revealed to me that He will take His vessels (in a rapture) for training and return us to bring in the harvest. We will bear His Light (Isaiah 60:1-3, as Wise Brides who Kept the oil/Holy Spirit) to reap the harvest because we will have been in His presence, just as Moses stood in God's presence on Mt. Sinai and when he came down, He glowed! Look it up. ;)

God Bless!
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

"It will be good for those servants whose master finds them WATCHING when he comes..."Luke 12:37

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05/28/2020 07:45 PM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Thread: The OFFICIAL 2019 updated RAPTURE FAIL LIST. enjoy.
Achduke7  (OP)

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05/28/2020 07:47 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
The Christian had no power over Satan until Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to indwell the Christian at the Pentecost after His resurrection.

In order for Satan to rule all the world for 42 months the Holy Spirit must be removed.

Since the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the Christian once he has been filled with the Spirit then the Spirit filled Christian must be removed for Satan to receive his promised reign on Earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48881331


If you throw away everything you learned about the pretrib doctrine why do you believe the Holy Spirit must be removed? The Holy Spirit will be around during the tribulation. One of the things that is specified before the tribulation really starts is the 144K being sealed. Reading Paul we know this is sealed with the Holy Spirit. Also the 2 witness must have the Holy Spirit along with all the tribulation saints.
 Quoting: Achduke7


What will the 144,000 be used by God to Accomplish?
 Quoting: Jake


I know it may be too far out there for some but I submit that the 144K are the 2 witnesses.

The 144K represent Israel being all 12 tribes.

God said Israel is his witness and his Olive Tree.

The 2 Witnesses are the Olive tree also.

How does Israel being one become 2 witnesses?

They were divided into 2 Kingdom. The North Kingdom represented by Joseph and the 10 Tribes along with the Southern Kingdom represent by Judah and the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.

So in summary the 144K are most probably the 2 witnesses. I would also submit that the Women of rev 12 is also this same symbol of the Church/Israel.

The 144K/witnesses will continue the ministry of Christ and preach the truth while the Antichrist will preach his false beliefs and persecute the Church/Israel.

The offspring of the Woman will be the tribulation saints who will come to believe and be killed for their beliefs. The women/144k/2 witnesses are sealed and protected from God.

I know this is far off for many but this is what I gather from reading the bible specifically Daniel and Revelation.
Achduke
Achduke7  (OP)

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05/28/2020 07:48 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Jesus said in Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Notice the "AND" (in blue). Jesus says we are to pray to "escape ALL these things" so that would be at the beginning, right? And in order to stand "before the Son of Man (Jesus), we must be where He is.

Jesus is not on the earth in the beginning of the tribulation period so we must go where He is in order to stand before Him...which is not here. Also, since Jesus commanded we watch and pray always to be accounted worthy to escape and you don't believe that He will take His own as an act of mercy and protection (just like He did for LOT before Sodom and Gomorrah), then chances are you are not praying as He commanded. Hope I'm wrong.


Have you ever considered that those who know there is a pre-trib rapture are those God has revealed this to and will be taken. If folks believe this is false doctrine, then maybe it doesn't to those He has not revealed this to. Either way, according to your faith BE IT UNTO YOU.

All that said, He has revealed to me that He will take His vessels (in a rapture) for training and return us to bring in the harvest. We will bear His Light (Isaiah 60:1-3, as Wise Brides who Kept the oil/Holy Spirit) to reap the harvest because we will have been in His presence, just as Moses stood in God's presence on Mt. Sinai and when he came down, He glowed! Look it up. ;)

God Bless!
 Quoting: **Watcher**


We can escape with the help of God without being raptured first. I do believe in the rapture but I think it is the process of the 1st resurrection when we are gathered to Christ.
Achduke
Achduke7  (OP)

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05/28/2020 07:48 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH WERE, SO TO SHALL THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE??

WHO WERE TAKEN OFF THE EARTH IN THE DAYS OF NOAH???





WHEAT IN THE TARES:


WHO GETS BURNED UP IN THE FIRE??
 Quoting: Jake


Hi Jake,

The evil people were exterminated from the earth.
Noah and his family were in a boat but were not taken from the earth. God can protect his own. He does not need to wisk his people away to protect them.
 Quoting: Achduke7


You are missing my point, those two verses proves there

is no pre tribulation rapture.

The wicked will be taken.
 Quoting: Jake


I concur.

Last Edited by Achduke7 on 05/28/2020 07:49 PM
Achduke
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05/28/2020 07:49 PM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH WERE, SO TO SHALL THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE??

WHO WERE TAKEN OFF THE EARTH IN THE DAYS OF NOAH???





WHEAT IN THE TARES:


WHO GETS BURNED UP IN THE FIRE??
 Quoting: Jake


Hi Jake,

The evil people were exterminated from the earth.
Noah and his family were in a boat but were not taken from the earth. God can protect his own. He does not need to wisk his people away to protect them.
 Quoting: Achduke7


You are missing my point, those two verses proves there

is no pre tribulation rapture.

The wicked will be taken.
 Quoting: Jake


Jesus also said it would be "As in the days of Lot". Lot was wisked away before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. If you read the parable of the Wheat and Tares closely, the tares and wheat are harvested simultaneously. God will send His remnant Army (Joel 2) to gather the harvest AFTER He has raptured them for training and returned them for the harvest.

Just as there are 3 harvest periods in the physical, there will be 3 harvests in the Spirit. The first harvest (Barley) will be the innocent from the earth and the Wise Brides who kept their oil/Holy Spirit. This will be at the beginning. The second harvest will be the Wheat (think, Wise Brides get to harvest and bring the Wedding guests). This will happen at the 6th seal when John saw a multitude that no man could number SUDDENLY appear. Notice they are not given crowns like the Bride at the beginning (which we lay at Jesus' feet). This multitude at the 6th seal are given palm branches...Wheat harvest. The third harvest is of the grapes. To harvest grapes you put them through the "winepress". They will be those who must endure to be harvested at the end.

Hope this helps. This is what God has revealed to me over time. He is merciful. He will not beat up His Bride before He marries her. But we must be WISE! Pray for His Wisdom and discernment in all things!
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

"It will be good for those servants whose master finds them WATCHING when he comes..."Luke 12:37

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User ID: 48881331
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05/28/2020 07:50 PM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
The Christian had no power over Satan until Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to indwell the Christian at the Pentecost after His resurrection.

In order for Satan to rule all the world for 42 months the Holy Spirit must be removed.

Since the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the Christian once he has been filled with the Spirit then the Spirit filled Christian must be removed for Satan to receive his promised reign on Earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48881331


If you throw away everything you learned about the pretrib doctrine why do you believe the Holy Spirit must be removed? The Holy Spirit will be around during the tribulation. One of the things that is specified before the tribulation really starts is the 144K being sealed. Reading Paul we know this is sealed with the Holy Spirit. Also the 2 witness must have the Holy Spirit along with all the tribulation saints.
 Quoting: Achduke7


The aforementioned 144,000 and two witnesses are directly protected by God's power/ The sealing is God's mark, not the infilling of the Holy Spirit. The two witnesses are God.s power not the infilling of the Holy Spirit.
**Watcher**

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05/28/2020 07:51 PM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Jesus said in Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Notice the "AND" (in blue). Jesus says we are to pray to "escape ALL these things" so that would be at the beginning, right? And in order to stand "before the Son of Man (Jesus), we must be where He is.

Jesus is not on the earth in the beginning of the tribulation period so we must go where He is in order to stand before Him...which is not here. Also, since Jesus commanded we watch and pray always to be accounted worthy to escape and you don't believe that He will take His own as an act of mercy and protection (just like He did for LOT before Sodom and Gomorrah), then chances are you are not praying as He commanded. Hope I'm wrong.


Have you ever considered that those who know there is a pre-trib rapture are those God has revealed this to and will be taken. If folks believe this is false doctrine, then maybe it doesn't to those He has not revealed this to. Either way, according to your faith BE IT UNTO YOU.

All that said, He has revealed to me that He will take His vessels (in a rapture) for training and return us to bring in the harvest. We will bear His Light (Isaiah 60:1-3, as Wise Brides who Kept the oil/Holy Spirit) to reap the harvest because we will have been in His presence, just as Moses stood in God's presence on Mt. Sinai and when he came down, He glowed! Look it up. ;)

God Bless!
 Quoting: **Watcher**


We can escape with the help of God without being raptured first. I do believe in the rapture but I think it is the process of the 1st resurrection when we are gathered to Christ.
 Quoting: Achduke7


You are missing the "AND"! Where is Jesus that we can stand before Him at the beginning? Not on earth.
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

"It will be good for those servants whose master finds them WATCHING when he comes..."Luke 12:37

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(me) ><{{{">

<"}}}><
Jake

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05/28/2020 07:54 PM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
The Christian had no power over Satan until Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to indwell the Christian at the Pentecost after His resurrection.

In order for Satan to rule all the world for 42 months the Holy Spirit must be removed.

Since the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the Christian once he has been filled with the Spirit then the Spirit filled Christian must be removed for Satan to receive his promised reign on Earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48881331


If you throw away everything you learned about the pretrib doctrine why do you believe the Holy Spirit must be removed? The Holy Spirit will be around during the tribulation. One of the things that is specified before the tribulation really starts is the 144K being sealed. Reading Paul we know this is sealed with the Holy Spirit. Also the 2 witness must have the Holy Spirit along with all the tribulation saints.
 Quoting: Achduke7


What will the 144,000 be used by God to Accomplish?
 Quoting: Jake


I know it may be too far out there for some but I submit that the 144K are the 2 witnesses.

The 144K represent Israel being all 12 tribes.

God said Israel is his witness and his Olive Tree.

The 2 Witnesses are the Olive tree also.

How does Israel being one become 2 witnesses?

They were divided into 2 Kingdom. The North Kingdom represented by Joseph and the 10 Tribes along with the Southern Kingdom represent by Judah and the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.

So in summary the 144K are most probably the 2 witnesses. I would also submit that the Women of rev 12 is also this same symbol of the Church/Israel.

The 144K/witnesses will continue the ministry of Christ and preach the truth while the Antichrist will preach his false beliefs and persecute the Church/Israel.

The offspring of the Woman will be the tribulation saints who will come to believe and be killed for their beliefs. The women/144k/2 witnesses are sealed and protected from God.

I know this is far off for many but this is what I gather from reading the bible specifically Daniel and Revelation.
 Quoting: Achduke7


No that is totally believable
Anonymous Coward
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05/28/2020 07:56 PM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
It is our responsibility to keep our house in order, when not done and judgment results, it has been God's way to destroy the good along with the bad, the rapture would be counter to that.
Achduke7  (OP)

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05/28/2020 08:01 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
The Christian had no power over Satan until Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to indwell the Christian at the Pentecost after His resurrection.

In order for Satan to rule all the world for 42 months the Holy Spirit must be removed.

Since the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the Christian once he has been filled with the Spirit then the Spirit filled Christian must be removed for Satan to receive his promised reign on Earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48881331


If you throw away everything you learned about the pretrib doctrine why do you believe the Holy Spirit must be removed? The Holy Spirit will be around during the tribulation. One of the things that is specified before the tribulation really starts is the 144K being sealed. Reading Paul we know this is sealed with the Holy Spirit. Also the 2 witness must have the Holy Spirit along with all the tribulation saints.
 Quoting: Achduke7


The aforementioned 144,000 and two witnesses are directly protected by God's power/ The sealing is God's mark, not the infilling of the Holy Spirit. The two witnesses are God.s power not the infilling of the Holy Spirit.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48881331


Paul said God's seal is the Holy Spirit. The OT said it his instructions. The The NT said God's seal is his Holy Spirit which makes sense since the Holy Spirit teaches you how to follow God's instructions. God told Ezekiel He would give Israel the Holy Spirit to teach them his instructions too.

You will also notice that Satan/the beast has a mark/seal also similar to God's. Head and hands in order to buy. Not exactly sure what it is but it is similar. Could be RFID but whatever it is I will keep an eye out for it. You do not want to take the mark of the beast.

Deuteronomy 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Achduke
Achduke7  (OP)

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05/28/2020 08:06 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
...


If you throw away everything you learned about the pretrib doctrine why do you believe the Holy Spirit must be removed? The Holy Spirit will be around during the tribulation. One of the things that is specified before the tribulation really starts is the 144K being sealed. Reading Paul we know this is sealed with the Holy Spirit. Also the 2 witness must have the Holy Spirit along with all the tribulation saints.
 Quoting: Achduke7


What will the 144,000 be used by God to Accomplish?
 Quoting: Jake


I know it may be too far out there for some but I submit that the 144K are the 2 witnesses.

The 144K represent Israel being all 12 tribes.

God said Israel is his witness and his Olive Tree.

The 2 Witnesses are the Olive tree also.

How does Israel being one become 2 witnesses?

They were divided into 2 Kingdom. The North Kingdom represented by Joseph and the 10 Tribes along with the Southern Kingdom represent by Judah and the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.

So in summary the 144K are most probably the 2 witnesses. I would also submit that the Women of rev 12 is also this same symbol of the Church/Israel.

The 144K/witnesses will continue the ministry of Christ and preach the truth while the Antichrist will preach his false beliefs and persecute the Church/Israel.

The offspring of the Woman will be the tribulation saints who will come to believe and be killed for their beliefs. The women/144k/2 witnesses are sealed and protected from God.

I know this is far off for many but this is what I gather from reading the bible specifically Daniel and Revelation.
 Quoting: Achduke7


No that is totally believable
 Quoting: Jake


If you read about the Woman/144k you will see the 144K come back with Christ. I would submit this remnant of Israel is the living stones/bride of Christ. Who comes back with Christ? The 144K. the pretribbers believe they or the whole church is the Bride of Christ but would a husband leave his bride? Who show up with the Christ in the end times? The 144K.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 14:4-6 4T hese are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Christ was also the Firstfruits to be resurrected/raptured. I submit this is his Bride. Remember Christ also said along with the Bride there are the guests and friends of the Bridegroom. All are friends and most probably saved but dear to his heart is his Bride.
Achduke
Achduke7  (OP)

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05/28/2020 08:09 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Jesus said in Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Notice the "AND" (in blue). Jesus says we are to pray to "escape ALL these things" so that would be at the beginning, right? And in order to stand "before the Son of Man (Jesus), we must be where He is.

Jesus is not on the earth in the beginning of the tribulation period so we must go where He is in order to stand before Him...which is not here. Also, since Jesus commanded we watch and pray always to be accounted worthy to escape and you don't believe that He will take His own as an act of mercy and protection (just like He did for LOT before Sodom and Gomorrah), then chances are you are not praying as He commanded. Hope I'm wrong.


Have you ever considered that those who know there is a pre-trib rapture are those God has revealed this to and will be taken. If folks believe this is false doctrine, then maybe it doesn't to those He has not revealed this to. Either way, according to your faith BE IT UNTO YOU.

All that said, He has revealed to me that He will take His vessels (in a rapture) for training and return us to bring in the harvest. We will bear His Light (Isaiah 60:1-3, as Wise Brides who Kept the oil/Holy Spirit) to reap the harvest because we will have been in His presence, just as Moses stood in God's presence on Mt. Sinai and when he came down, He glowed! Look it up. ;)

God Bless!
 Quoting: **Watcher**


We can escape with the help of God without being raptured first. I do believe in the rapture but I think it is the process of the 1st resurrection when we are gathered to Christ.
 Quoting: Achduke7


You are missing the "AND"! Where is Jesus that we can stand before Him at the beginning? Not on earth.
 Quoting: **Watcher**


God is with Christ. I submit we are taken/raptured/resurrected to Christ after the tribulation but before God's wrath. We are not destined for wrath. Then Christ comes down.
Achduke
Achduke7  (OP)

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05/28/2020 08:10 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH WERE, SO TO SHALL THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE??

WHO WERE TAKEN OFF THE EARTH IN THE DAYS OF NOAH???





WHEAT IN THE TARES:


WHO GETS BURNED UP IN THE FIRE??
 Quoting: Jake


Hi Jake,

The evil people were exterminated from the earth.
Noah and his family were in a boat but were not taken from the earth. God can protect his own. He does not need to wisk his people away to protect them.
 Quoting: Achduke7


You are missing my point, those two verses proves there

is no pre tribulation rapture.

The wicked will be taken.
 Quoting: Jake


Jesus also said it would be "As in the days of Lot". Lot was wisked away before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. If you read the parable of the Wheat and Tares closely, the tares and wheat are harvested simultaneously. God will send His remnant Army (Joel 2) to gather the harvest AFTER He has raptured them for training and returned them for the harvest.

Just as there are 3 harvest periods in the physical, there will be 3 harvests in the Spirit. The first harvest (Barley) will be the innocent from the earth and the Wise Brides who kept their oil/Holy Spirit. This will be at the beginning. The second harvest will be the Wheat (think, Wise Brides get to harvest and bring the Wedding guests). This will happen at the 6th seal when John saw a multitude that no man could number SUDDENLY appear. Notice they are not given crowns like the Bride at the beginning (which we lay at Jesus' feet). This multitude at the 6th seal are given palm branches...Wheat harvest. The third harvest is of the grapes. To harvest grapes you put them through the "winepress". They will be those who must endure to be harvested at the end.

Hope this helps. This is what God has revealed to me over time. He is merciful. He will not beat up His Bride before He marries her. But we must be WISE! Pray for His Wisdom and discernment in all things!
 Quoting: **Watcher**


Hi Watcher,

Lot was not taken from the earth. He was just taken from away from harm.
Achduke
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05/28/2020 08:21 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
No videos? Might as well say only original Greek and Hebrew scriptures are allowed to be used:
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78964030


Because I am not going to watch 2 hours of video. If a pretribber can defend the pretrib then they should have no problem doing it themselves or googling the scripture they want to convey.
Achduke
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05/28/2020 08:26 PM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
The Christian had no power over Satan until Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to indwell the Christian at the Pentecost after His resurrection.

In order for Satan to rule all the world for 42 months the Holy Spirit must be removed.

Since the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the Christian once he has been filled with the Spirit then the Spirit filled Christian must be removed for Satan to receive his promised reign on Earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48881331


If you throw away everything you learned about the pretrib doctrine why do you believe the Holy Spirit must be removed? The Holy Spirit will be around during the tribulation. One of the things that is specified before the tribulation really starts is the 144K being sealed. Reading Paul we know this is sealed with the Holy Spirit. Also the 2 witness must have the Holy Spirit along with all the tribulation saints.
 Quoting: Achduke7


The aforementioned 144,000 and two witnesses are directly protected by God's power/ The sealing is God's mark, not the infilling of the Holy Spirit. The two witnesses are God.s power not the infilling of the Holy Spirit.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48881331


Paul said God's seal is the Holy Spirit. The OT said it his instructions. The The NT said God's seal is his Holy Spirit which makes sense since the Holy Spirit teaches you how to follow God's instructions. God told Ezekiel He would give Israel the Holy Spirit to teach them his instructions too.

You will also notice that Satan/the beast has a mark/seal also similar to God's. Head and hands in order to buy. Not exactly sure what it is but it is similar. Could be RFID but whatever it is I will keep an eye out for it. You do not want to take the mark of the beast.

Deuteronomy 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
 Quoting: Achduke7


The forehead mark, as unbelievable as it sounds to you, is the NASA lie that everybody lives from the beginning, born unto SIN... it directly takes you away from GOD, without knowing as you live the LIE.

The wrist, will be the chip at some point, soon, that will tie social behaviour [like CHINA, social credit], the more lies you believe and stay inline with, the more "normal" your considered under the BEAST system, and allowed to roam freely [under their BELIEF], step out of line ...and well you see what happened in CHINA with people that resisted quarantines, right?

BUT

the wrist portion is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve without the FOREHEAD mark, the lie people believe since birth, if you live a lie, how do you know anything to you that is told is true?

Like COVID, the masses are paranoid about catching a virus, that with research instead of just believing what they tell you without question they WILLINGLY put on a mask, for nothing, in submission to a LIE [FEAR is the BEAST CONTAGION]...and society has taken INCONSIDERABLE DAMAGE from this lie that this will be the new normal from here on out...you know, until that vaccine is ready with the chip that the masses will beg for to return back to "normal" pre COVID [a lie]

That's the conundrum people face if people want to stop the BEAST system, question the main lie [NASA], instead of the smaller ones only [wars, gmos, vaccines, left/right, Trump vs Hillary] those are just distractions to keep you away from your GOD GIVEN RIGHT, your SOUL and the connection to the Spirit of Truth.
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05/28/2020 08:28 PM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
In order for Satan to rule all the world for 42 months the Holy Spirit must be removed.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48881331


I agree with this... in order for him to rule over the part of the Earth over which he rules, the Holy Spirit must be removed from that part. It does not say he rules all the world. It does give a bunch of specifics though...

Since the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the Christian once he has been filled with the Spirit then the Spirit filled Christian must be removed for Satan to receive his promised reign on Earth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 48881331


This is off topic, but one who once believed can absolutely "trample under foot the blood of Christ" and must continue to believe in order to "quench not the Spirit"

If you throw away everything you learned about the pretrib doctrine why do you believe the Holy Spirit must be removed? The Holy Spirit will be around during the tribulation. One of the things that is specified before the tribulation really starts is the 144K being sealed. Reading Paul we know this is sealed with the Holy Spirit. Also the 2 witness must have the Holy Spirit along with all the tribulation saints.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Yes

AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH WERE, SO TO SHALL THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE??

WHO WERE TAKEN OFF THE EARTH IN THE DAYS OF NOAH???





WHEAT IN THE TARES:


WHO GETS BURNED UP IN THE FIRE??
 Quoting: Jake


Yes

Hi Jake,

The evil people were exterminated from the earth.
Noah and his family were in a boat but were not taken from the earth. God can protect his own. He does not need to wisk his people away to protect them.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Yes

Two in the field one shall be take one shall be left.

Revelation 14:15 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
 Quoting: Jake


Yes

Jesus said in Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Notice the "AND" (in blue). Jesus says we are to pray to "escape ALL these things" so that would be at the beginning, right? And in order to stand "before the Son of Man (Jesus), we must be where He is.
 Quoting: **Watcher**


You are correct. However you assume too much. The Holy people will be taken to a secret place in the wilderness. Also, there is not timing implied between the first and second phrase, just that the condition must be fulfilled.

Jesus is not on the earth in the beginning of the tribulation period so we must go where He is in order to stand before Him...which is not here. Also, since Jesus commanded we watch and pray always to be accounted worthy to escape and you don't believe that He will take His own as an act of mercy and protection (just like He did for LOT before Sodom and Gomorrah), then chances are you are not praying as He commanded. Hope I'm wrong.
 Quoting: **Watcher**


I agree with you 100%... but the bit about Jesus not being on the Earth and having to be on the Earth, etc, I cannot follow you. In the bible anyway. Find just one more passage the supports your point.

I know it may be too far out there for some but I submit that the 144K are the 2 witnesses.

The 144K represent Israel being all 12 tribes.

God said Israel is his witness and his Olive Tree.

The 2 Witnesses are the Olive tree also.
 Quoting: Achduke7


I think I agree with this, but the 12 tribes are I think not literal, but I do not understand the metaphor

How does Israel being one become 2 witnesses?

They were divided into 2 Kingdom. The North Kingdom represented by Joseph and the 10 Tribes along with the Southern Kingdom represent by Judah and the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.
 Quoting: Achduke7


I disagree with this. The 2 are the Law and the Prophets as embodied in Moses and Elijah and pictured in Jesus and John the Baptist. I do agree that they mirror again in the 144k.

So in summary the 144K are most probably the 2 witnesses. I would also submit that the Women of rev 12 is also this same symbol of the Church/Israel.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Yes. If you mean all the holy people. All who believe and keep themselves clean (the 5 virgins with the oil).

The 144K/witnesses will continue the ministry of Christ and preach the truth while the Antichrist will preach his false beliefs and persecute the Church/Israel.
 Quoting: Achduke7


He will not and can not persecute the woman that is taken to the secret place in the wilderness, but he will persecute those who believed but did not follow well, ei: the 5 virgins that ran out of oil

The offspring of the Woman will be the tribulation saints who will come to believe and be killed for their beliefs. The women/144k/2 witnesses are sealed and protected from God.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Okay, these as well.

Jesus also said it would be "As in the days of Lot". Lot was wisked away before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. If you read the parable of the Wheat and Tares closely, the tares and wheat are harvested simultaneously. God will send His remnant Army (Joel 2) to gather the harvest AFTER He has raptured them for training and returned them for the harvest.
 Quoting: **Watcher**


Again, you missed the "where". Lot was taken to a secret place in the mountains... or would have, had he not begged for some city life.

Just as there are 3 harvest periods in the physical, there will be 3 harvests in the Spirit. The first harvest (Barley) will be the innocent from the earth and the Wise Brides who kept their oil/Holy Spirit. This will be at the beginning. The second harvest will be the Wheat (think, Wise Brides get to harvest and bring the Wedding guests). This will happen at the 6th seal when John saw a multitude that no man could number SUDDENLY appear. Notice they are not given crowns like the Bride at the beginning (which we lay at Jesus' feet). This multitude at the 6th seal are given palm branches...Wheat harvest. The third harvest is of the grapes. To harvest grapes you put them through the "winepress". They will be those who must endure to be harvested at the end.
 Quoting: **Watcher**


Interesting, but, again: demonstrate it from the bible. It will be better.
**Watcher**

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05/28/2020 08:29 PM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Jesus said in Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Notice the "AND" (in blue). Jesus says we are to pray to "escape ALL these things" so that would be at the beginning, right? And in order to stand "before the Son of Man (Jesus), we must be where He is.

Jesus is not on the earth in the beginning of the tribulation period so we must go where He is in order to stand before Him...which is not here. Also, since Jesus commanded we watch and pray always to be accounted worthy to escape and you don't believe that He will take His own as an act of mercy and protection (just like He did for LOT before Sodom and Gomorrah), then chances are you are not praying as He commanded. Hope I'm wrong.


Have you ever considered that those who know there is a pre-trib rapture are those God has revealed this to and will be taken. If folks believe this is false doctrine, then maybe it doesn't to those He has not revealed this to. Either way, according to your faith BE IT UNTO YOU.

All that said, He has revealed to me that He will take His vessels (in a rapture) for training and return us to bring in the harvest. We will bear His Light (Isaiah 60:1-3, as Wise Brides who Kept the oil/Holy Spirit) to reap the harvest because we will have been in His presence, just as Moses stood in God's presence on Mt. Sinai and when he came down, He glowed! Look it up. ;)

God Bless!
 Quoting: **Watcher**


We can escape with the help of God without being raptured first. I do believe in the rapture but I think it is the process of the 1st resurrection when we are gathered to Christ.
 Quoting: Achduke7


You are missing the "AND"! Where is Jesus that we can stand before Him at the beginning? Not on earth.
 Quoting: **Watcher**


God is with Christ. I submit we are taken/raptured/resurrected to Christ after the tribulation but before God's wrath. We are not destined for wrath. Then Christ comes down.
 Quoting: Achduke7


I agree. So then you believe in a mid-trib rapture? For we are told in Revelation that the Day of God's Wrath has come at the 6th seal. I propose that is when the second Harvest of the Wheat will take place and the Bride and harvested "wheat" will all go to the wedding together. But the Bride is harvested at the "Barley" harvest time, i.e. Pentecost season, as she is watching and praying to be accounted worthy to escape ALL the things that are coming, not just the wrath. Her seal will be His glory upon her when she returns from having been in His Presence and will be glowing as Moses did after being in God's presence. She will then return and go out to reap the harvest of the Wheat as it says in Isaiah 60:1-3 AND this is alluded to in the Parable of the Wheat and Tares... Matthew 13:43
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

"It will be good for those servants whose master finds them WATCHING when he comes..."Luke 12:37

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
No videos? Might as well say only original Greek and Hebrew scriptures are allowed to be used:
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78964030


Because I am not going to watch 2 hours of video. If a pretribber can defend the pretrib then they should have no problem doing it themselves or googling the scripture they want to convey.
 Quoting: Achduke7


I can make up arbitrary rules also, so if your not giving the scriptures in original Greek or Hebrew than your arguments are not valid. You made this rule because you know there are videos that would totally destroy your arguments for a post tribulation rapture. Someone who took years of study and Bible reading condensed their information into a thirty minute video and some how you say it is not valid, what a cowardly response.
Achduke7  (OP)

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05/28/2020 08:33 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
No videos? Might as well say only original Greek and Hebrew scriptures are allowed to be used:
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78964030


Because I am not going to watch 2 hours of video. If a pretribber can defend the pretrib then they should have no problem doing it themselves or googling the scripture they want to convey.
 Quoting: Achduke7


I can make up arbitrary rules also, so if your not giving the scriptures in original Greek or Hebrew than your arguments are not valid. You made this rule because you know there are videos that would totally destroy your arguments for a post tribulation rapture. Someone who took years of study and Bible reading condensed their information into a thirty minute video and some how you say it is not valid, what a cowardly response.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78964030


It is not an arbitrary rule. Defend your position or don't but I am not going to watch a long video defending a position because you can't. I have watched enough Chuck Missler and other rapture videos.

If you are so caught up on a video then post the scriptures from the video. It is easiest when you post a handful of scriptures supporting a position and we discuss it.

Last Edited by Achduke7 on 05/28/2020 08:36 PM
Achduke
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
No videos? Might as well say only original Greek and Hebrew scriptures are allowed to be used:
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78964030


Because I am not going to watch 2 hours of video. If a pretribber can defend the pretrib then they should have no problem doing it themselves or googling the scripture they want to convey.
 Quoting: Achduke7


I can make up arbitrary rules also, so if your not giving the scriptures in original Greek or Hebrew than your arguments are not valid. You made this rule because you know there are videos that would totally destroy your arguments for a post tribulation rapture. Someone who took years of study and Bible reading condensed their information into a thirty minute video and some how you say it is not valid, what a cowardly response.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78964030


It is not an arbitrary rule. Defend your position or don't but I am not going to watch a long video defending a position because you can't. I have watched enough Chuck Missler and other rapture videos.

If you are so caught up on a video then post the scriorltures from the video.
 Quoting: Achduke7

If a video is posted you do not have to watch it. Every thing does not revolve around you, it may have helped someone else, are you even a Christian?
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
It is our responsibility to keep our house in order, when not done and judgment results, it has been God's way to destroy the good along with the bad, the rapture would be counter to that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 74897465


Yes

Paul said God's seal is the Holy Spirit. The OT said it his instructions. The The NT said God's seal is his Holy Spirit which makes sense since the Holy Spirit teaches you how to follow God's instructions. God told Ezekiel He would give Israel the Holy Spirit to teach them his instructions too.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Yes


You will also notice that Satan/the beast has a mark/seal also similar to God's. Head and hands in order to buy. Not exactly sure what it is but it is similar. Could be RFID but whatever it is I will keep an eye out for it. You do not want to take the mark of the beast.

Deuteronomy 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Ezekiel 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Indeed, this is true.

If you read about the Woman/144k you will see the 144K come back with Christ. I would submit this remnant of Israel is the living stones/bride of Christ. Who comes back with Christ? The 144K. the pretribbers believe they or the whole church is the Bride of Christ but would a husband leave his bride? Who show up with the Christ in the end times? The 144K.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 14:4-6 4T hese are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Christ was also the Firstfruits to be resurrected/raptured. I submit this is his Bride. Remember Christ also said along with the Bride there are the guests and friends of the Bridegroom. All are friends and most probably saved but dear to his heart is his Bride.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Interesting. I will have to study this.


You are missing the "AND"! Where is Jesus that we can stand before Him at the beginning? Not on earth.
 Quoting: **Watcher**


You are adding context that is not there. Many times there are 2 phrases in prophesy that have thousands of years and miles between.

I submit we are taken/raptured/resurrected to Christ after the tribulation but before God's wrath. We are not destined for wrath. Then Christ comes down.
 Quoting: Achduke7


I believe that the bride comes with him to cleanse the Earth. Bizarre as it may seem, as far as I can tell, the cleansing of the earth is the consummation.
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Without quoting all of the above responses, thank you for taking the time to break it down. I do believe we will be taken to Mount Zion, which God has revealed to me is both here on earth but contains a hidden realm that we are unable to see with our human eyes. It is there that we will be trained and sent out. There are many scriptures that pertain to going to Mount Zion (144,000 are taken there as mentioned in Book of Revelation but MANY other references in the Old Testament as well).

The pre-trib rapture doesn't necessarily mean we go to heaven, it means we are taken out of harms way which can be to Mount Zion. In any case, those around the ones taken will not know where they have been taken to so in that sense, it is not protection where they stand, it is a physical taking away BEFORE all these things come to pass. Remember, Noah was shut into the Ark before the rains came. To those standing around, it was a perfectly normal day...
pre-trib!

grinning
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

"It will be good for those servants whose master finds them WATCHING when he comes..."Luke 12:37

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