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Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved

 
Anonymous Coward
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06/12/2020 01:25 AM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
This thread is not very short anymore.
Anonymous Coward
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06/12/2020 01:34 AM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
This thread is not very short anymore.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79022180

But Judethz can't remove his posts here, and that was Archie's point...
Anonymous Coward
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06/12/2020 01:37 AM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
So what do you make of this, Archie?

Who are they?

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?


Romans 11:11-15


For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest you should be wise in your own opinion,
that blindness in part has happened to Israel
until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.


Romans 11:25

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79021387
Anonymous Coward
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06/12/2020 01:39 AM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
This thread is not very short anymore.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79022180

But Judethz can't remove his posts here, and that was Archie's point...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79022111


epiclol

Very good, carry on.
B4Birth

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06/12/2020 03:26 AM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Because other posters of pretrib rapture threads like to delete anything they do not agree with even when it is based on scripture here is a pretrib rapture thread for everyone else.

This thread is for those that defend the pretrib rapture. Please only post bible verses that only pertain to the pretrib rapture. If the verse can apply to both pretrib and postrib then do not post it.

Also no videos or websites. If you cannot defend the pretrib rapture on your own then do not post.

Most important be courteous to each other. I will delete posts that are mean and vile. We can be civil and act like brothers in sisters without name calling.

Lastly any bible haters will be purged from this thread and blocked. Do not waste yours and my time.

I would like to see only pretrib scriptures. I do not expect many posts on this thread because I am pretty sure there are no verses that can only be applied to the pretrib rapture doctrine.

Here is a start many use that does not apply to pretrib.

2Thes 2:1-3 1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

The gathering in verse 2Thes 2:1 is about the rapture/harpazo. Before this can happen then the conditions in 2Thes 2:3 must be met first as Paul says.

In 2Thes 2:3 many pretribbers will say the falling away really means depart and that the pretribbers are the ones departing.


If this is a departure then 1Timothy 4:1-3 is the best verses to associate with 2Thes 2:3. 1Timothy 4 is already happening. This along with Antichrist will be the start.

1Timothy 4:1-3 1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
 Quoting: Achduke7


I will here put some things in numerical order about the return of Jesus. Before I start let me say that even though the rapture is pre-trib the verses you mentioned above do not support a pre-trib rapture. The verses you used above are related to the FINAL return of Jesus which was Paul's concern here.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

BEFORE THE FINAL RETURN (after the rapture)
1. per verse three must be a falling away first.

2. per verse 3 the man of sin will be revealed who is also the son of perdition (Satan) who is endowed with the spirit of Satan (Lucifer) and is also called the BEAST.

3. per verse 7 Satan has to be removed out of the way (of course most Christians mistake this for the Holy Ghost). Remember that Satan is removed for a thousand years while the BEAST is in charge. Then Satan is loosed for a short time (42 months or 3.5 years)

4. per verse 8 that "WICKED" BEAST will be revealed. Then Jesus will destroy the BEAST when He comes back at His final return.

The rapture is well before all of this. Take not that it does not say that Jesus destroys Satan at the time He destroys the BEAST. Jesus destroys the son of Satan named Lucifer (the son of perdition).

In this thread as I address other comments I will show you the pre-trib rapture. You may be shocked to find that the seven years are not seven continuous years but are divided in two parts. The first half is mentioned in Daniel where Jesus is killed in the middle of the week (42 month).

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In these verses Daniel takes us up to 69 week. It is in the middle of that 69 week that Jesus is killed. Because of His death He has not completed the covenant He confirmed in verse 27. He will complete that confirmation after the final 42 months (GREAT TRIBULATION); which is at the end of 1000 years when Satan is no longer bound. We are still in the MIDDLE of the 69th week. Presently we are in a pause for the Church Age. In other words things are still playing out but God just called "TIME OUT" to give way to the Gentiles; even made space for a second Sabbath during this time EACH WEEK that we celebrate as RESURECCTION SUNDAY! That Sabbath will end with the pre-trib rapture.

I will address the signs for the pre-trib rapture soon.
B4Birth

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06/12/2020 03:50 AM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH WERE, SO TO SHALL THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE??

WHO WERE TAKEN OFF THE EARTH IN THE DAYS OF NOAH???





WHEAT IN THE TARES:


WHO GETS BURNED UP IN THE FIRE??
 Quoting: Jake


Nobody was taken off the earth in the days of Noah. God provided for heaven on earth in a place called an Ark. When the Bible mentions as the days of Noah it is referring to the fact that they were CLUELESS about what was getting ready to happen. Just as they are RIGHT NOW.

As far as who gets burned in the fire:

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The verse in question is referring to the HARVEST which is at the end at Jesus' final return. That is not the rapture; that is a thousand years later. Keep in mind though that Christians are in the barn right now and the tares (sinners) are already in a burning hell at this moment. They are not waiting to be in hell.

The rapture of not a harvest. The rapture is the removal of a remnant of true believers from an extremely dangerous situation on this planet (similar to now). Only a very small number is ready to be taken along with about 1.8 Billion children 10 years of age and under. The rapture is related to the fall of Babylon. Babylon is falling now and will soon be complete. Read Rev 18 to gather understanding on why the rapture will take place. The call is made "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE". The United States is Babylon. Rapture soon!
Achduke7  (OP)

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06/12/2020 05:40 AM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
This thread is not very short anymore.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79022180

But Judethz can't remove his posts here, and that was Archie's point...
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79022111


If I removed all the posts that do not have scripture showing a pre-trib rapture it would be empty.
Achduke
Achduke7  (OP)

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06/12/2020 07:30 AM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
So what do you make of this, Archie?

Who are they?

I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?


Romans 11:11-15


For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest you should be wise in your own opinion,
that blindness in part has happened to Israel
until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.


Romans 11:25

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79021387

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79022111


Even though it is Achduke or "Ack" I like Archie because everyone gets my handle wrong and calls me ArchDuke.

I believe it has to do with the Gentiles and Native born Israel being grafted in together under Israel or "Not My People" as God calls them in Hosea and Paul also quotes in Romans. Despite what others say Israel is not whole yet. God has not brought the Joseph back from all the nations.
Achduke
Achduke7  (OP)

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06/12/2020 07:54 AM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Are pretribbers in the Elect?
 Quoting: Achduke7


german3 Are you implying that we ain't?
 Quoting: Judethz



So I replied to your question and then you deleted my reply because you do not like my answer?

Would the pre-tribbers be a part of the elect when the elect are gathered after the tribulation like it says in Matthew 24 and according to pre-tribbers they would not even be around?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Also notice that this corresponds to Revelation 6 at the sixth seal. This is noted at this point to be the Great day of his wrath. Before this is the tribulation but after Rev 6/Matt 24:29 is Wrath.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Achduke
Achduke7  (OP)

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06/12/2020 08:12 AM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
1st woe devil is cast out and tribulation starts.

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


 Quoting: Achduke7


This is incorrect, and should be put to rest already. Revelation 12 is past tense, and not in the Preterist way.

Plainly, that section happened in the first century. When Jesus ascended to the right hand of Father God, Satan was cast out of heaven completely (Rev. 12:7-9). How do we know this happened in the first century after Jesus' ascension? The beginning of Revelation chapter 12 starts with the birth of Christ. We know this is about the birth of Christ because of what Satan attempted to do to stop His birth. Revelation 12:4 says, "And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child." This attempt to "devour" Christ is seen in Matthew 2:16-18.

Now I'm betting you haven't even viewed the video presented in the first post. Go watch it, your in error on how things line up in Revelation.
 Quoting: Ears To Hear


**** My Thoughts on a preterist view **** From the following thread.

Thread: A Massive Earthquake Will Happen Right Before the Rapture (Page 7)

I have viewed this video before. It is a moderate preterist view and although I do not discount preterist completely it does have its flaws.

What I posted is a study of putting revelation into order by using the woes and earthquakes as markers nothing more. Most of what I have posted is scripture. Your contention is with scripture and not me.

As for Revelation 12.

Revelation 12 is past, present and future. It is a mini summary of the whole of Revelation. Revelation is told over and over again using different symbology. Most likely the women of Revelation 12, the 144K and the 2 witnesses are the same group. Where are the 2 witnesses who should be witnessing during the times of trouble? They are absent this whole time and have not served their 1260 days yet.

My problems with a full preterist view is the 1260 days. Even if we substitute 1260 days into years we are way more then 1260 years from the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Staring the 1260 years after the final fall of Rome and the complete separation of Rome and the RCC still puts us around 476 AD which with the 1260 years only extends us out to the 1736 We are still short 284 years of 2020 and who knows when the rest of Revelation will be concluded.
Achduke
Achduke7  (OP)

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Because other posters of pretrib rapture threads like to delete anything they do not agree with even when it is based on scripture here is a pretrib rapture thread for everyone else.

This thread is for those that defend the pretrib rapture. Please only post bible verses that only pertain to the pretrib rapture. If the verse can apply to both pretrib and postrib then do not post it.

Also no videos or websites. If you cannot defend the pretrib rapture on your own then do not post.

Most important be courteous to each other. I will delete posts that are mean and vile. We can be civil and act like brothers in sisters without name calling.

Lastly any bible haters will be purged from this thread and blocked. Do not waste yours and my time.

I would like to see only pretrib scriptures. I do not expect many posts on this thread because I am pretty sure there are no verses that can only be applied to the pretrib rapture doctrine.

Here is a start many use that does not apply to pretrib.

2Thes 2:1-3 1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

The gathering in verse 2Thes 2:1 is about the rapture/harpazo. Before this can happen then the conditions in 2Thes 2:3 must be met first as Paul says.

In 2Thes 2:3 many pretribbers will say the falling away really means depart and that the pretribbers are the ones departing.


If this is a departure then 1Timothy 4:1-3 is the best verses to associate with 2Thes 2:3. 1Timothy 4 is already happening. This along with Antichrist will be the start.

1Timothy 4:1-3 1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
 Quoting: Achduke7


I will here put some things in numerical order about the return of Jesus. Before I start let me say that even though the rapture is pre-trib the verses you mentioned above do not support a pre-trib rapture. The verses you used above are related to the FINAL return of Jesus which was Paul's concern here.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

BEFORE THE FINAL RETURN (after the rapture)
1. per verse three must be a falling away first.

2. per verse 3 the man of sin will be revealed who is also the son of perdition (Satan) who is endowed with the spirit of Satan (Lucifer) and is also called the BEAST.

3. per verse 7 Satan has to be removed out of the way (of course most Christians mistake this for the Holy Ghost). Remember that Satan is removed for a thousand years while the BEAST is in charge. Then Satan is loosed for a short time (42 months or 3.5 years)

4. per verse 8 that "WICKED" BEAST will be revealed. Then Jesus will destroy the BEAST when He comes back at His final return.

The rapture is well before all of this. Take not that it does not say that Jesus destroys Satan at the time He destroys the BEAST. Jesus destroys the son of Satan named Lucifer (the son of perdition).

In this thread as I address other comments I will show you the pre-trib rapture. You may be shocked to find that the seven years are not seven continuous years but are divided in two parts. The first half is mentioned in Daniel where Jesus is killed in the middle of the week (42 month).

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In these verses Daniel takes us up to 69 week. It is in the middle of that 69 week that Jesus is killed. Because of His death He has not completed the covenant He confirmed in verse 27. He will complete that confirmation after the final 42 months (GREAT TRIBULATION); which is at the end of 1000 years when Satan is no longer bound. We are still in the MIDDLE of the 69th week. Presently we are in a pause for the Church Age. In other words things are still playing out but God just called "TIME OUT" to give way to the Gentiles; even made space for a second Sabbath during this time EACH WEEK that we celebrate as RESURECCTION SUNDAY! That Sabbath will end with the pre-trib rapture.

I will address the signs for the pre-trib rapture soon.
 Quoting: B4Birth


Interesting but I do not agree about the Sabbath ending. God said the Sabbath is forever. Also the Sabbath is not on Sunday unlike the RCC would like you to believe.


You are the first pre-tribber I have seen to use Daniel 9:25-27 to show the covenant was about Christ and not about the antichrist. I am not shocked and do believe the week was broken up after the death, burial and Resurrection of Christ.
Achduke
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
There is NO pre-trib rapture.

 Quoting: Servant-of-the-LORD


You are a sociopath. You cannot even entertain the notion of the cognotive dissonance in your skull to even acknowledge the possibility that you do not have perfect knowledge of all things and might actually be incorrect in your understanding.

I believe the Pre-Tribulation Rapture to be True

and many things about your belligerent supposed faith to be False.

Jesus Christ decides.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79022111


"cognitive dissonance"? Do you even understand the term?

You claim that you love Jesus YET you DO NOT BELIEVE in what He said.

WHY do you suppose that scipture has been preserved for the last 1900+ years - ESPECIALLY what Jesus ACTUALLY SAID?

ONE of THE MAIN reasons is to be able to use it to TEST doctrines.

The rapture is a manmade doctrine created by "cobbling" verses together that supposedly support the doctrine while IGNORING other scriptures that REFUTE the doctrine outright.

Where does Jesus say we "miis tribulation" by being "taken away"?
Where does Johm say we "miis tribulation" by being "taken away"?
Where does Paul say we "miis tribulation" by being "taken away"?

They don't - and scripture doesn't say it ANYWHERE.

Your "cognitive dissonance" of belief....

"IF I believe it will happen then Jesus will MAKE it happen".

I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
Servant-of-the-LORD

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06/12/2020 01:24 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH WERE, SO TO SHALL THE COMING OF THE SON OF MAN BE??

WHO WERE TAKEN OFF THE EARTH IN THE DAYS OF NOAH???

WHEAT IN THE TARES:

WHO GETS BURNED UP IN THE FIRE??
 Quoting: Jake


Nobody was taken off the earth in the days of Noah. God provided for heaven on earth in a place called an Ark. When the Bible mentions as the days of Noah it is referring to the fact that they were CLUELESS about what was getting ready to happen. Just as they are RIGHT NOW.

As far as who gets burned in the fire:

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The verse in question is referring to the HARVEST which is at the end at Jesus' final return. That is not the rapture; that is a thousand years later. Keep in mind though that Christians are in the barn right now and the tares (sinners) are already in a burning hell at this moment. They are not waiting to be in hell.

The rapture of not a harvest. The rapture is the removal of a remnant of true believers from an extremely dangerous situation on this planet (similar to now). Only a very small number is ready to be taken along with about 1.8 Billion children 10 years of age and under. The rapture is related to the fall of Babylon. Babylon is falling now and will soon be complete. Read Rev 18 to gather understanding on why the rapture will take place. The call is made "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE". The United States is Babylon. Rapture soon!
 Quoting: B4Birth


NONSENSE.

The Flood didn't "remove people"?

It killed them - same effect.

"Jesus final return"?

Jesus returns ONE TIME - just before the beginning of His Millenial Kingdom.

3 Gospels and Revelation ALL have a sequence of events.

NONE of them have a "rapture" of people who AVOID Tribulation.
I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
Servant-of-the-LORD

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06/12/2020 01:27 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
I believe the Pre-Tribulation Rapture to be the Truth of Jesus Christ

and you cannot demand that I not believe the Pre-Tribulation Rapture to be the Truth of Jesus Christ

or that I must believe what you say to believe in Jesus Christ

when I am more than quite capable of knowing and believing in Jesus Christ according to my understanding of God's Word The Bible as He has led me so far

Yeah, you got that right.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79022111


"Your" understanding of God's word"?

YOU didn't do the research.

YOU believe in a false doctrine concocted by Paulinistic numbskulls from the 1800's.

ALL you folks do is to repeat what "theologians" like Chuck Missler and others have taught.
I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
Servant-of-the-LORD

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06/12/2020 01:34 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
You have no argument FOR a pre-trib rapture.
 Quoting: Servant-of-the-LORD


Says you, horse.

And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts."

Revelation 21:6
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79022111


What does that verse have to do with a "rapture"?

NOTHING.

See how these verses are ALL the same event.

1. Notice that Verses 16 & 17 are pretty much EXACTLY what Jesus says in the Gospel descriptions.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

------------------------------------------
2. Then notice how Paul's verses 15 & 17 match....

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
B4Birth

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06/12/2020 01:47 PM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Because other posters of pretrib rapture threads like to delete anything they do not agree with even when it is based on scripture here is a pretrib rapture thread for everyone else.

This thread is for those that defend the pretrib rapture. Please only post bible verses that only pertain to the pretrib rapture. If the verse can apply to both pretrib and postrib then do not post it.

Also no videos or websites. If you cannot defend the pretrib rapture on your own then do not post.

Most important be courteous to each other. I will delete posts that are mean and vile. We can be civil and act like brothers in sisters without name calling.

Lastly any bible haters will be purged from this thread and blocked. Do not waste yours and my time.

I would like to see only pretrib scriptures. I do not expect many posts on this thread because I am pretty sure there are no verses that can only be applied to the pretrib rapture doctrine.

Here is a start many use that does not apply to pretrib.

2Thes 2:1-3 1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

The gathering in verse 2Thes 2:1 is about the rapture/harpazo. Before this can happen then the conditions in 2Thes 2:3 must be met first as Paul says.

In 2Thes 2:3 many pretribbers will say the falling away really means depart and that the pretribbers are the ones departing.


If this is a departure then 1Timothy 4:1-3 is the best verses to associate with 2Thes 2:3. 1Timothy 4 is already happening. This along with Antichrist will be the start.

1Timothy 4:1-3 1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
 Quoting: Achduke7


I will here put some things in numerical order about the return of Jesus. Before I start let me say that even though the rapture is pre-trib the verses you mentioned above do not support a pre-trib rapture. The verses you used above are related to the FINAL return of Jesus which was Paul's concern here.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

BEFORE THE FINAL RETURN (after the rapture)
1. per verse three must be a falling away first.

2. per verse 3 the man of sin will be revealed who is also the son of perdition (Satan) who is endowed with the spirit of Satan (Lucifer) and is also called the BEAST.

3. per verse 7 Satan has to be removed out of the way (of course most Christians mistake this for the Holy Ghost). Remember that Satan is removed for a thousand years while the BEAST is in charge. Then Satan is loosed for a short time (42 months or 3.5 years)

4. per verse 8 that "WICKED" BEAST will be revealed. Then Jesus will destroy the BEAST when He comes back at His final return.

The rapture is well before all of this. Take not that it does not say that Jesus destroys Satan at the time He destroys the BEAST. Jesus destroys the son of Satan named Lucifer (the son of perdition).

In this thread as I address other comments I will show you the pre-trib rapture. You may be shocked to find that the seven years are not seven continuous years but are divided in two parts. The first half is mentioned in Daniel where Jesus is killed in the middle of the week (42 month).

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In these verses Daniel takes us up to 69 week. It is in the middle of that 69 week that Jesus is killed. Because of His death He has not completed the covenant He confirmed in verse 27. He will complete that confirmation after the final 42 months (GREAT TRIBULATION); which is at the end of 1000 years when Satan is no longer bound. We are still in the MIDDLE of the 69th week. Presently we are in a pause for the Church Age. In other words things are still playing out but God just called "TIME OUT" to give way to the Gentiles; even made space for a second Sabbath during this time EACH WEEK that we celebrate as RESURECCTION SUNDAY! That Sabbath will end with the pre-trib rapture.

I will address the signs for the pre-trib rapture soon.
 Quoting: B4Birth


Interesting but I do not agree about the Sabbath ending. God said the Sabbath is forever. Also the Sabbath is not on Sunday unlike the RCC would like you to believe.


You are the first pre-tribber I have seen to use Daniel 9:25-27 to show the covenant was about Christ and not about the antichrist. I am not shocked and do believe the week was broken up after the death, burial and Resurrection of Christ.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Remember I did not say the Sabbath ended, Another sabbath was added to celebrate the resurrection. So there are two Sabbaths, The second will end with the pre-trib rapture. Check the history of when the early Christian church met beginning with Jesus at the first one on the FIRST day of the week. Christians were not allowed in the synagogue.
B4Birth

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
The reasoning is because the pretribbers say they go before the tribulation but the elect leave after the tribulation.

Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.


Mat 24:31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 Quoting: Achduke7


You don't understand why we believe what we believe but simply stubbornly repeatedly insist that we are wrong and you are right.

We disagree. You might be wrong. We will see.

I'm good either way because I believe in nothing but Him.

and you cannot change that.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79017797


Paul says "we who are ALIVE AND REMAIN".

Remain from WHAT? The Tribulation.

NOT ONE SINGLE WRITER says that we "miss tribulation".
-----------------------------
Compare what Paul says to what Jesus says in these passages.

See how these are ALL the same event.

1 Thessalonians 4


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



1. Notice that Verses 16 & 17 are pretty much EXACTLY what Jesus says in the Gospel descriptions.


Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


2. Then notice how Paul's verses 15 & 17 match....


Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
 Quoting: Servant-of-the-LORD


Paul is not talking about the rapture in his letter. He is talking about a time 1000 years after the rapture and immediately after the 42 months of great tribulation. It is also called the last resurrection. The first resurrection is with the rapture. The only people resurrection in the first resurrection are those who were BEHEADED for the faith in Jesus.

Rev_20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Last Edited by B4Birth on 06/12/2020 02:12 PM
Achduke7  (OP)

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06/12/2020 03:09 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Because other posters of pretrib rapture threads like to delete anything they do not agree with even when it is based on scripture here is a pretrib rapture thread for everyone else.

This thread is for those that defend the pretrib rapture. Please only post bible verses that only pertain to the pretrib rapture. If the verse can apply to both pretrib and postrib then do not post it.

Also no videos or websites. If you cannot defend the pretrib rapture on your own then do not post.

Most important be courteous to each other. I will delete posts that are mean and vile. We can be civil and act like brothers in sisters without name calling.

Lastly any bible haters will be purged from this thread and blocked. Do not waste yours and my time.

I would like to see only pretrib scriptures. I do not expect many posts on this thread because I am pretty sure there are no verses that can only be applied to the pretrib rapture doctrine.

Here is a start many use that does not apply to pretrib.

2Thes 2:1-3 1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

The gathering in verse 2Thes 2:1 is about the rapture/harpazo. Before this can happen then the conditions in 2Thes 2:3 must be met first as Paul says.

In 2Thes 2:3 many pretribbers will say the falling away really means depart and that the pretribbers are the ones departing.


If this is a departure then 1Timothy 4:1-3 is the best verses to associate with 2Thes 2:3. 1Timothy 4 is already happening. This along with Antichrist will be the start.

1Timothy 4:1-3 1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
 Quoting: Achduke7


I will here put some things in numerical order about the return of Jesus. Before I start let me say that even though the rapture is pre-trib the verses you mentioned above do not support a pre-trib rapture. The verses you used above are related to the FINAL return of Jesus which was Paul's concern here.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

BEFORE THE FINAL RETURN (after the rapture)
1. per verse three must be a falling away first.

2. per verse 3 the man of sin will be revealed who is also the son of perdition (Satan) who is endowed with the spirit of Satan (Lucifer) and is also called the BEAST.

3. per verse 7 Satan has to be removed out of the way (of course most Christians mistake this for the Holy Ghost). Remember that Satan is removed for a thousand years while the BEAST is in charge. Then Satan is loosed for a short time (42 months or 3.5 years)

4. per verse 8 that "WICKED" BEAST will be revealed. Then Jesus will destroy the BEAST when He comes back at His final return.

The rapture is well before all of this. Take not that it does not say that Jesus destroys Satan at the time He destroys the BEAST. Jesus destroys the son of Satan named Lucifer (the son of perdition).

In this thread as I address other comments I will show you the pre-trib rapture. You may be shocked to find that the seven years are not seven continuous years but are divided in two parts. The first half is mentioned in Daniel where Jesus is killed in the middle of the week (42 month).

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In these verses Daniel takes us up to 69 week. It is in the middle of that 69 week that Jesus is killed. Because of His death He has not completed the covenant He confirmed in verse 27. He will complete that confirmation after the final 42 months (GREAT TRIBULATION); which is at the end of 1000 years when Satan is no longer bound. We are still in the MIDDLE of the 69th week. Presently we are in a pause for the Church Age. In other words things are still playing out but God just called "TIME OUT" to give way to the Gentiles; even made space for a second Sabbath during this time EACH WEEK that we celebrate as RESURECCTION SUNDAY! That Sabbath will end with the pre-trib rapture.

I will address the signs for the pre-trib rapture soon.
 Quoting: B4Birth


Interesting but I do not agree about the Sabbath ending. God said the Sabbath is forever. Also the Sabbath is not on Sunday unlike the RCC would like you to believe.


You are the first pre-tribber I have seen to use Daniel 9:25-27 to show the covenant was about Christ and not about the antichrist. I am not shocked and do believe the week was broken up after the death, burial and Resurrection of Christ.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Remember I did not say the Sabbath ended, Another sabbath was added to celebrate the resurrection. So there are two Sabbaths, The second will end with the pre-trib rapture. Check the history of when the early Christian church met beginning with Jesus at the first one on the FIRST day of the week. Christians were not allowed in the synagogue.
 Quoting: B4Birth


If you check the greek whereever you see 1st of week(mia ton sabbaton) which everyone calls Sunday is really one of the sabbaths in greek which can be translated as the sabbath counting of the omer and not as Sunday. Sunday is not a 2nd sabbath. That is purely the rcc made up.
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
...


I will here put some things in numerical order about the return of Jesus. Before I start let me say that even though the rapture is pre-trib the verses you mentioned above do not support a pre-trib rapture. The verses you used above are related to the FINAL return of Jesus which was Paul's concern here.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

BEFORE THE FINAL RETURN (after the rapture)
1. per verse three must be a falling away first.

2. per verse 3 the man of sin will be revealed who is also the son of perdition (Satan) who is endowed with the spirit of Satan (Lucifer) and is also called the BEAST.

3. per verse 7 Satan has to be removed out of the way (of course most Christians mistake this for the Holy Ghost). Remember that Satan is removed for a thousand years while the BEAST is in charge. Then Satan is loosed for a short time (42 months or 3.5 years)

4. per verse 8 that "WICKED" BEAST will be revealed. Then Jesus will destroy the BEAST when He comes back at His final return.

The rapture is well before all of this. Take not that it does not say that Jesus destroys Satan at the time He destroys the BEAST. Jesus destroys the son of Satan named Lucifer (the son of perdition).

In this thread as I address other comments I will show you the pre-trib rapture. You may be shocked to find that the seven years are not seven continuous years but are divided in two parts. The first half is mentioned in Daniel where Jesus is killed in the middle of the week (42 month).

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In these verses Daniel takes us up to 69 week. It is in the middle of that 69 week that Jesus is killed. Because of His death He has not completed the covenant He confirmed in verse 27. He will complete that confirmation after the final 42 months (GREAT TRIBULATION); which is at the end of 1000 years when Satan is no longer bound. We are still in the MIDDLE of the 69th week. Presently we are in a pause for the Church Age. In other words things are still playing out but God just called "TIME OUT" to give way to the Gentiles; even made space for a second Sabbath during this time EACH WEEK that we celebrate as RESURECCTION SUNDAY! That Sabbath will end with the pre-trib rapture.

I will address the signs for the pre-trib rapture soon.
 Quoting: B4Birth


Interesting but I do not agree about the Sabbath ending. God said the Sabbath is forever. Also the Sabbath is not on Sunday unlike the RCC would like you to believe.


You are the first pre-tribber I have seen to use Daniel 9:25-27 to show the covenant was about Christ and not about the antichrist. I am not shocked and do believe the week was broken up after the death, burial and Resurrection of Christ.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Remember I did not say the Sabbath ended, Another sabbath was added to celebrate the resurrection. So there are two Sabbaths, The second will end with the pre-trib rapture. Check the history of when the early Christian church met beginning with Jesus at the first one on the FIRST day of the week. Christians were not allowed in the synagogue.
 Quoting: B4Birth


If you check the greek whereever you see 1st of week(mia ton sabbaton) which everyone calls Sunday is really one of the sabbaths in greek which can be translated as the sabbath counting of the omer and not as Sunday. Sunday is not a 2nd sabbath. That is purely the rcc made up.
 Quoting: Achduke7


I don't get your point here. Are you saying all the days of the week are wrong. Is Monday really Monday and is Tuesday really Tuesday. The Bible says Jesus rose on the first day of the week. Tell me what day do you think that is out of the seven choices?
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
...


Interesting but I do not agree about the Sabbath ending. God said the Sabbath is forever. Also the Sabbath is not on Sunday unlike the RCC would like you to believe.


You are the first pre-tribber I have seen to use Daniel 9:25-27 to show the covenant was about Christ and not about the antichrist. I am not shocked and do believe the week was broken up after the death, burial and Resurrection of Christ.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Remember I did not say the Sabbath ended, Another sabbath was added to celebrate the resurrection. So there are two Sabbaths, The second will end with the pre-trib rapture. Check the history of when the early Christian church met beginning with Jesus at the first one on the FIRST day of the week. Christians were not allowed in the synagogue.
 Quoting: B4Birth


If you check the greek whereever you see 1st of week(mia ton sabbaton) which everyone calls Sunday is really one of the sabbaths in greek which can be translated as the sabbath counting of the omer and not as Sunday. Sunday is not a 2nd sabbath. That is purely the rcc made up.
 Quoting: Achduke7


I don't get your point here. Are you saying all the days of the week are wrong. Is Monday really Monday and is Tuesday really Tuesday. The Bible says Jesus rose on the first day of the week. Tell me what day do you think that is out of the seven choices?
 Quoting: B4Birth


No, that the translation first of the week may be wrong. It may actually be one of the sabbaths instead. It is translated from "mia ton sabbaton"

Last Edited by Achduke7 on 06/12/2020 04:54 PM
Achduke
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
I believe the Pre-Tribulation Rapture to be the Truth of Jesus Christ

and you cannot demand that I not believe the Pre-Tribulation Rapture to be the Truth of Jesus Christ

or that I must believe what you say to believe in Jesus Christ

when I am more than quite capable of knowing and believing in Jesus Christ according to my understanding of God's Word The Bible as He has led me so far

Yeah, you got that right.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79022111


"Your" understanding of God's word"?

YOU didn't do the research.

YOU believe in a false doctrine concocted by Paulinistic numbskulls from the 1800's.

ALL you folks do is to repeat what "theologians" like Chuck Missler and others have taught.
 Quoting: Servant-of-the-LORD


Would you like to go be with Jesus right this very second?
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
You have no argument FOR a pre-trib rapture.
 Quoting: Servant-of-the-LORD


Says you, horse.

And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts."

Revelation 21:6
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79022111


What does that verse have to do with a "rapture"?

NOTHING.

 Quoting: Servant-of-the-LORD

Calm down, old man, you might make yourself go see Jesus sooner than the Rapture!

Correct. Nothing.. That verse is about your heart and drinking the water of life, horse...
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
"Your"...
YOU...
YOU...
ALL you.
 Quoting: Servant-of-the-LORD

Thus sayeth almighty you.

So what?

Because we disagree, your cognitive dissonance cannot handle even the possibility that almighty you is wrong, therefore you cannot say anything else.

I'm looking and hoping for Jesus at every moment.

You are not.

Truth.
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Because other posters of pretrib rapture threads like to delete anything they do not agree with even when it is based on scripture here is a pretrib rapture thread for everyone else.

This thread is for those that defend the pretrib rapture. Please only post bible verses that only pertain to the pretrib rapture. If the verse can apply to both pretrib and postrib then do not post it.

Also no videos or websites. If you cannot defend the pretrib rapture on your own then do not post.

Most important be courteous to each other. I will delete posts that are mean and vile. We can be civil and act like brothers in sisters without name calling.

Lastly any bible haters will be purged from this thread and blocked. Do not waste yours and my time.

I would like to see only pretrib scriptures. I do not expect many posts on this thread because I am pretty sure there are no verses that can only be applied to the pretrib rapture doctrine.

Here is a start many use that does not apply to pretrib.

2Thes 2:1-3 1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

The gathering in verse 2Thes 2:1 is about the rapture/harpazo. Before this can happen then the conditions in 2Thes 2:3 must be met first as Paul says.

In 2Thes 2:3 many pretribbers will say the falling away really means depart and that the pretribbers are the ones departing.


If this is a departure then 1Timothy 4:1-3 is the best verses to associate with 2Thes 2:3. 1Timothy 4 is already happening. This along with Antichrist will be the start.

1Timothy 4:1-3 1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
 Quoting: Achduke7



Paul Paul Paul Paul
Fail
Servant-of-the-LORD

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06/12/2020 11:16 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Paul says "we who are ALIVE AND REMAIN".

Remain from WHAT? The Tribulation.

NOT ONE SINGLE WRITER says that we "miss tribulation".
-----------------------------
Compare what Paul says to what Jesus says in these passages.

See how these are ALL the same event.

1 Thessalonians 4


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



1. Notice that Verses 16 & 17 are pretty much EXACTLY what Jesus says in the Gospel descriptions.


Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


2. Then notice how Paul's verses 15 & 17 match....


Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
 Quoting: Servant-of-the-LORD


Paul is not talking about the rapture in his letter. He is talking about a time 1000 years after the rapture and immediately after the 42 months of great tribulation. It is also called the last resurrection. The first resurrection is with the rapture. The only people resurrection in the first resurrection are those who were BEHEADED for the faith in Jesus.

Rev_20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 Quoting: B4Birth


There is NO "pre-tribulation" rapture.

Jesus returns ONCE - to set up His Millenial Kingdom.
I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
Servant-of-the-LORD

User ID: 79023775
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06/12/2020 11:19 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
"Your"...
YOU...
YOU...
ALL you.
 Quoting: Servant-of-the-LORD

Thus sayeth almighty you.

So what?

Because we disagree, your cognitive dissonance cannot handle even the possibility that almighty you is wrong, therefore you cannot say anything else.

I'm looking and hoping for Jesus at every moment.

You are not.

Truth.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79022111


The REAL truth is that scripture does NOT lie.

NO scripture supports a pre-trib rapture.

It's a pipe dream created the same time Paulinism started.

TRUE doctrines are based on verses with either "Thus saith the LORD" OR "Jesus said....".
I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
Servant-of-the-LORD

User ID: 79023775
United States
06/12/2020 11:21 PM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
I believe the Pre-Tribulation Rapture to be the Truth of Jesus Christ

and you cannot demand that I not believe the Pre-Tribulation Rapture to be the Truth of Jesus Christ

or that I must believe what you say to believe in Jesus Christ

when I am more than quite capable of knowing and believing in Jesus Christ according to my understanding of God's Word The Bible as He has led me so far

Yeah, you got that right.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79022111


"Your" understanding of God's word"?

YOU didn't do the research.

YOU believe in a false doctrine concocted by Paulinistic numbskulls from the 1800's.

ALL you folks do is to repeat what "theologians" like Chuck Missler and others have taught.
 Quoting: Servant-of-the-LORD


Would you like to go be with Jesus right this very second?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79022111


You keep deflecting the issues of the TOPIC.

another do
I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God.
B4Birth

User ID: 68702654
United States
06/13/2020 12:54 AM
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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Paul says "we who are ALIVE AND REMAIN".

Remain from WHAT? The Tribulation.

NOT ONE SINGLE WRITER says that we "miss tribulation".
-----------------------------
Compare what Paul says to what Jesus says in these passages.

See how these are ALL the same event.

1 Thessalonians 4


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



1. Notice that Verses 16 & 17 are pretty much EXACTLY what Jesus says in the Gospel descriptions.


Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


2. Then notice how Paul's verses 15 & 17 match....


Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
 Quoting: Servant-of-the-LORD


Paul is not talking about the rapture in his letter. He is talking about a time 1000 years after the rapture and immediately after the 42 months of great tribulation. It is also called the last resurrection. The first resurrection is with the rapture. The only people resurrection in the first resurrection are those who were BEHEADED for the faith in Jesus.

Rev_20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 Quoting: B4Birth


There is NO "pre-tribulation" rapture.

Jesus returns ONCE - to set up His Millenial Kingdom.
 Quoting: Servant-of-the-LORD


The Millennial reign is not on earth. It is at the place that Jesus left to prepare for us. It is another Mansion (planet) called "The New Jerusalem". In the end it will be merged with this planet. The Father's house (Universe) has many Mansions (Planets). If there were not many Mansions (Planets) He would have told us so. At the pre-trib rapture we are taken to this place.
Achduke7  (OP)

User ID: 78023456
United States
06/13/2020 08:52 AM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
Paul says "we who are ALIVE AND REMAIN".

Remain from WHAT? The Tribulation.

NOT ONE SINGLE WRITER says that we "miss tribulation".
-----------------------------
Compare what Paul says to what Jesus says in these passages.

See how these are ALL the same event.

1 Thessalonians 4


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



1. Notice that Verses 16 & 17 are pretty much EXACTLY what Jesus says in the Gospel descriptions.


Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


2. Then notice how Paul's verses 15 & 17 match....


Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
 Quoting: Servant-of-the-LORD


Paul is not talking about the rapture in his letter. He is talking about a time 1000 years after the rapture and immediately after the 42 months of great tribulation. It is also called the last resurrection. The first resurrection is with the rapture. The only people resurrection in the first resurrection are those who were BEHEADED for the faith in Jesus.

Rev_20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 Quoting: B4Birth


There is NO "pre-tribulation" rapture.

Jesus returns ONCE - to set up His Millenial Kingdom.
 Quoting: Servant-of-the-LORD


The Millennial reign is not on earth. It is at the place that Jesus left to prepare for us. It is another Mansion (planet) called "The New Jerusalem". In the end it will be merged with this planet. The Father's house (Universe) has many Mansions (Planets). If there were not many Mansions (Planets) He would have told us so. At the pre-trib rapture we are taken to this place.
 Quoting: B4Birth


So Christ comes back during the 2nd coming and then takes off to go to his off world planet mansion?
Achduke
Servant-of-the-LORD

User ID: 42176986
United States
06/13/2020 10:32 AM

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Re: Defending the Pre-trib rapture **** New and Improved
The Millennial reign is not on earth. It is at the place that Jesus left to prepare for us. It is another Mansion (planet) called "The New Jerusalem". In the end it will be merged with this planet. The Father's house (Universe) has many Mansions (Planets). If there were not many Mansions (Planets) He would have told us so. At the pre-trib rapture we are taken to this place.
 Quoting: B4Birth


So Christ comes back during the 2nd coming and then takes off to go to his off world planet mansion?
 Quoting: Achduke7


I smell a urantian.


ufo56ufo56ufo56ufo56

.......abduct..............abduct..............abduct..............abduct

GOAT2x.....GOAT2x......GOAT2x......GOAT2x
I am a humble Servant of the one True Living God.





GLP