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Electricians...I have a mystery

 
TheEmptyChild
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08/21/2021 03:28 PM
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Electricians...I have a mystery
It is almost impossible to get a hold of an electrician in my area. They don't return calls and so I've got a "contractor" buddy helping as well as he can. Not a professional but he gets by.

This is a problem we are chasing and if anyone can help to let me know if we are on the right track that would be cool.

-The main breaker was tripping inside the house box when we had what we thought were too many things running.

-We chased the problem through all the circuits and discovered that everything worked when the hot water switch was turned OFF.

-Buddy came out and checked the inside box and nothing was odd there.

-Checked the outside box and the main switch out there was toasted. Half melted actually. So, we switched that out and everything seemed ok.

-About a week later we used a lot of hot water for laundry, dishes, etc. We also had the dryer and AC on and suddenly....the whole house went out. We checked the Main INSIDE the house and it was fine. The main OUTSIDE was HOT and arced when we flipped it back on. 45 minutes went by and it tripped AGAIN.

-Using the trick from a week earlier we shut off the hot water switch in the house. Nothing tripped again and everything else worked.

-Our buddy came back and checked. With everything on we can think of that draws a lot of electricity we reach about 45 amps and the outside main trips. It is a 100 amp box.

-We did also discover that our water heater was shot. Not sure if this is related. The water heater alone draws about 16 amps.

-We just got a new water heater and have not installed it yet.

-Our buddy is thinking we need a new outside box all together which he is able to do for us.

I know it's a long story and there might be nobody that can help or cares to. If there is anyone who likes an electrical mystery feel free to offer your two cents worth.

We are already moving forward with changing the outside box (when the rain decides to stop) but I want to know if we should be prepared to have further issues once the job is done.
Copious_Sedition

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08/21/2021 03:39 PM

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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
You have 2 main breakers? Can you take pictures?

Brand, model? Does it say the AIC rating on them?

Last Edited by Copious_Sedition on 08/21/2021 03:41 PM
TheEmptyChild  (OP)

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08/21/2021 03:43 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
You have 2 main breakers? Can you take pictures?

Brand, model? Does it say the AIC rating on them?
 Quoting: Copious_Sedition


The main box outside (on the pole) runs into the sub box inside the house...where there is a main for the house. Not sure if my 15 year old phone would even get a clear pic.
Nonentity

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08/21/2021 03:44 PM

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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
Did you check the house ground?

Bad grounds can create all kinds of weird issues.

Also, a broken wire could give intermittent results. One day it can test fine, the next day it can test broken.

But it seems you're drawing too much amps.


I agree, replace everything broken. If you can't afford to do it right the 1st time, you're going to afford to pay twice as much.
TheEmptyChild  (OP)

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08/21/2021 03:51 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
Did you check the house ground?

Bad grounds can create all kinds of weird issues.

Also, a broken wire could give intermittent results. One day it can test fine, the next day it can test broken.

But it seems you're drawing too much amps.


I agree, replace everything broken. If you can't afford to do it right the 1st time, you're going to afford to pay twice as much.
 Quoting: Nonentity


Not sure about the house ground...I'd have to look for it. There is a pipe running down out of the bottom of the box..possibly in there? When he puts the meter on we only pull 45 amps...with almost everything on. We made sure to have all the stuff on that uses 220.

We though the bad water heater was drawing too much since it was going bad and that wasn't the case.
HarMegiddo

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08/21/2021 03:52 PM

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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
Yeah, need pics.

You said your inside main didn't trip, is that on both legs of the bussbar?
The things going through my mind first, were obviously the water heater neutral(probably 240) being tied to a 120 branch circuit neutral, with the water heater bad, electricity sounds like it's just trying to find a path to ground, and it may be.
If your 100a is tripping at 45 amps, I'd be watching that meter.

Try doing a load calc. and watching the meter.
Calculate your KWH vs. Volt-amps you know are being used for like 10 minutes.
The bad water heater may have just been backfeeding power to ground, or everywhere else.

Other thought was an unbalanced load in your panel. Usually not terrible, you just want to make sure the normal appliances/circuits have balanced average on both legs(sides) of the panel.

Bad water heater & a misplaced neutral somewhere down the line could've been the culprit.

Obviously hard to know without shocking myself a couple times.
HarMegiddo
OpenHeartMonk

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08/21/2021 03:55 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
my guess is you have a short circuit in your hot water tank, keep that circuit breaker off until you replace it.
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LSv2

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08/21/2021 03:55 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
Could be too much strain on your panel. You may need to upgrade to a 400 AMP panel.
chuff1

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08/21/2021 03:56 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
If you have a drop in voltage from your transformer on the pole, it would cause a larger than normal current draw. Check both legs and make sure there is 120vrms to neutral.
Second, breakers open due to heat, once they heat up you have to let them cool or they trip quicker.
sovereignwarrior

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08/21/2021 03:59 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
The element in the hot water heater is 220v. When the element shorted out, it created a fault between both phases which caused the main breaker to trip and go bad. Sometimes when there’s a fault like this, it can bypass the branch circuit breaker and trip the main. Since the main breaker hasn’t been exercised forever, it went bad
Hiballdrinker222

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08/21/2021 04:00 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
OP, I am sure that you have a loose connection at the outside main breaker. Somewhere in that box, line or load.
Hiballdrinker222
klotjap

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08/21/2021 04:00 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
Check for voltage drop and current draw. A broken neutral between the house and transformer would also cause these problems. Or you have a major short somewhere causing excessive current draw on one leg.
klotjap
Ozark Spark

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08/21/2021 04:02 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
Need more information.

Brand and size of the main breakers, if you have a panel that is very outdated and questionable quality you should probably upgrade. Check the grounding at the water heater (be sure the frame is grounded) and your main service ground, check to insure all grounding conductors are tight.

Make sure the grounding conductors are separated from the neutral conductors in any subpanel downstream of the main service.

What size is the water heater breaker.

What was the W/H drawing, if the elements were failing that could be your issue but, the first upstream breaker should have tripped not the main.

Last Edited by Zarko on 08/21/2021 04:13 PM
TheEmptyChild  (OP)

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08/21/2021 04:02 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
Yeah, need pics.

You said your inside main didn't trip, is that on both legs of the bussbar?
The things going through my mind first, were obviously the water heater neutral(probably 240) being tied to a 120 branch circuit neutral, with the water heater bad, electricity sounds like it's just trying to find a path to ground, and it may be.
If your 100a is tripping at 45 amps, I'd be watching that meter.

Try doing a load calc. and watching the meter.
Calculate your KWH vs. Volt-amps you know are being used for like 10 minutes.
The bad water heater may have just been backfeeding power to ground, or everywhere else.

Other thought was an unbalanced load in your panel. Usually not terrible, you just want to make sure the normal appliances/circuits have balanced average on both legs(sides) of the panel.

Bad water heater & a misplaced neutral somewhere down the line could've been the culprit.

Obviously hard to know without shocking myself a couple times.
 Quoting: HarMegiddo


THIS is interesting. My initial thought was to blame the water heater.

Also a lot of the breakers in the house box are on one side. We could possible do some moving around.

I am going to run this by my buddy and see if we can narrow this down. In the mean time...would checking outlets for loose neutral wires be a good idea?
Copious_Sedition

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08/21/2021 04:04 PM

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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
OP a main breakers tripping outside when your breakers on the loads in your house don't trip isn't good. Could be a transformer or utilities issue.

The breakers in the panel (water heater) should trip way before the main breaker. If you have 2 mains the house breakers would trip first if the issue was in the house (assuming the house side main is still good)

A bad heating element in the electric water heater should be no heat or an immediate trip of the water heater circuit.
Crypto-Tard

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08/21/2021 04:05 PM

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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
my guess is you have a short circuit in your hot water tank, keep that circuit breaker off until you replace it.
 Quoting: OpenHeartMonk


My money is on this first.

Then check your grounds (might need to drive in a new copper ground rod) and replace the 100A main breaker.

I'd start with that and don't use your existing hot water heater.
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CMcC

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08/21/2021 04:06 PM

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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
Sounds to me that the wire that goes from your mast to the 'little box' on the outside of your house has failed. Good luck.
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Copious_Sedition

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08/21/2021 04:08 PM

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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
OP if your water heater is bad and the breaker is bad you can test by running those wires to another breaker of the same size.ie a dryer or electric oven.

It would trip that 30,40,50 Amp breaker pretty quick.
Hiballdrinker222

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08/21/2021 04:10 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
OP, I will put money on the fact that it is a loose connection in the breaker outside. Loose connection and amps equals heat.
Hiballdrinker222
TheEmptyChild  (OP)

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08/21/2021 04:10 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
Thank you for all the answers. This is great. We have a lot to look at now.

It seems that the common denominator is the water heater though...right? Since we ARE changing the main box on the pole AND the hot water heater we SHOULD be able to narrow this down in the next few days. Now I have more to look into as we do this project.

I needed to update the outside box anyway and I am having him put something in the box for a generator to plug in.
Ozark Spark

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08/21/2021 04:11 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
Yeah, need pics.

You said your inside main didn't trip, is that on both legs of the bussbar?
The things going through my mind first, were obviously the water heater neutral(probably 240) being tied to a 120 branch circuit neutral, with the water heater bad, electricity sounds like it's just trying to find a path to ground, and it may be.
If your 100a is tripping at 45 amps, I'd be watching that meter.

Try doing a load calc. and watching the meter.
Calculate your KWH vs. Volt-amps you know are being used for like 10 minutes.
The bad water heater may have just been backfeeding power to ground, or everywhere else.

Other thought was an unbalanced load in your panel. Usually not terrible, you just want to make sure the normal appliances/circuits have balanced average on both legs(sides) of the panel.

Bad water heater & a misplaced neutral somewhere down the line could've been the culprit.

Obviously hard to know without shocking myself a couple times.
 Quoting: HarMegiddo


THIS is interesting. My initial thought was to blame the water heater.

Also a lot of the breakers in the house box are on one side. We could possible do some moving around.

I am going to run this by my buddy and see if we can narrow this down. In the mean time...would checking outlets for loose neutral wires be a good idea?
 Quoting: TheEmptyChild




That's NOT your problem, in residential panels you have 240 volts between two buss bars that are A/B down each side.
TheEmptyChild  (OP)

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08/21/2021 04:13 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
my guess is you have a short circuit in your hot water tank, keep that circuit breaker off until you replace it.
 Quoting: OpenHeartMonk


My money is on this first.

Then check your grounds (might need to drive in a new copper ground rod) and replace the 100A main breaker.

I'd start with that and don't use your existing hot water heater.
 Quoting: Crypto-Tard


This is my thought as well. If we change everything on the pole AND the water heater I hope the problem is fixed. Definitely checking the grounds.
STLmo

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08/21/2021 04:13 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
my guess is you have a short circuit in your hot water tank, keep that circuit breaker off until you replace it.
 Quoting: OpenHeartMonk


This. I've been an electrician for 11 years doing mostly service calls just like this. It has nothing to do with grounds like one poster said. It's likely bypassing the water heater breaker and just tripping the main.

The other possibility is that hot main breaker that you replaced, needs to have the busbar cleaned off with a wire brush. If it was getting hot, it can cause damage to the busbar the breaker snaps into and not be so obvious. So when you replace the main breaker, it still isn't making a good connection which creates heat, which causes the breaker to trip.
Anonymous Coward
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08/21/2021 04:13 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
Thank you for all the answers. This is great. We have a lot to look at now.

It seems that the common denominator is the water heater though...right? Since we ARE changing the main box on the pole AND the hot water heater we SHOULD be able to narrow this down in the next few days. Now I have more to look into as we do this project.

I needed to update the outside box anyway and I am having him put something in the box for a generator to plug in.
 Quoting: TheEmptyChild


The common denominator is specifics. MY 17 year old phone would take good enough pics! (old phone wars begin)...
BBQ BOY™

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08/21/2021 04:14 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
OP if your water heater is bad and the breaker is bad you can test by running those wires to another breaker of the same size.ie a dryer or electric oven.

It would trip that 30,40,50 Amp breaker pretty quick.
 Quoting: Copious_Sedition


Or just swap that breaker to another 70 amp location like your Air conditioner and turn your air on. That would let you know if its the Breaker.
"Never underestimate the pain of a person. In all honesty, everyone is struggling. Just some people are better at hiding it than others."

Everyone has to work out their own salvation.

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BBQ BOY™

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08/21/2021 04:14 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
double post

Last Edited by BBQ BOY™ on 08/21/2021 04:14 PM
"Never underestimate the pain of a person. In all honesty, everyone is struggling. Just some people are better at hiding it than others."

Everyone has to work out their own salvation.

Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards.
TheEmptyChild  (OP)

User ID: 29469609
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08/21/2021 04:14 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
OP if your water heater is bad and the breaker is bad you can test by running those wires to another breaker of the same size.ie a dryer or electric oven.

It would trip that 30,40,50 Amp breaker pretty quick.
 Quoting: Copious_Sedition


Also a good idea. Thanks.
TheEmptyChild  (OP)

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08/21/2021 04:15 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
Thank you for all the answers. This is great. We have a lot to look at now.

It seems that the common denominator is the water heater though...right? Since we ARE changing the main box on the pole AND the hot water heater we SHOULD be able to narrow this down in the next few days. Now I have more to look into as we do this project.

I needed to update the outside box anyway and I am having him put something in the box for a generator to plug in.
 Quoting: TheEmptyChild


The common denominator is specifics. MY 17 year old phone would take good enough pics! (old phone wars begin)...
 Quoting: William Poole


Heh...I'll see what I can do.
Risingtide

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08/21/2021 04:16 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
Electrician here, it’s likely your old hwt. Branch circuit breakers will often stay on while mains trip. You don’t need a new panel to resolve this issue. It was either a short between one of the element and tank from build up on a rotted element or the control mechanism between the two elements failed.
Nonentity

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08/21/2021 04:18 PM

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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
Check for voltage drop and current draw. A broken neutral between the house and transformer would also cause these problems. Or you have a major short somewhere causing excessive current draw on one leg.
 Quoting: klotjap


Agreed.

Voltage loss from a break or loose connection can increase the amps big time.

Last Edited by Nonentity on 08/21/2021 04:19 PM
Ozark Spark

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08/21/2021 04:21 PM
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Re: Electricians...I have a mystery
Also, if you have old copper water supply lines make sure those are bonded to your electrical system ground. When a water heater element goes bad it can energize the copper pipe if it's not properly bonded.

Newer homes have all plastic so that isn't an issue but old houses with copper or galvanized supply lines can be dangerous if they aren't bonded.





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