Electricians...I have a mystery | |
Copious_Sedition
User ID: 79658680 United States 08/21/2021 03:39 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | You have 2 main breakers? Can you take pictures? Brand, model? Does it say the AIC rating on them? Last Edited by Copious_Sedition on 08/21/2021 03:41 PM |
TheEmptyChild
(OP) User ID: 29469609 United States 08/21/2021 03:43 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Nonentity
User ID: 80539033 United States 08/21/2021 03:44 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Did you check the house ground? Bad grounds can create all kinds of weird issues. Also, a broken wire could give intermittent results. One day it can test fine, the next day it can test broken. But it seems you're drawing too much amps. I agree, replace everything broken. If you can't afford to do it right the 1st time, you're going to afford to pay twice as much. |
TheEmptyChild
(OP) User ID: 29469609 United States 08/21/2021 03:51 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Did you check the house ground? Quoting: Nonentity Bad grounds can create all kinds of weird issues. Also, a broken wire could give intermittent results. One day it can test fine, the next day it can test broken. But it seems you're drawing too much amps. I agree, replace everything broken. If you can't afford to do it right the 1st time, you're going to afford to pay twice as much. Not sure about the house ground...I'd have to look for it. There is a pipe running down out of the bottom of the box..possibly in there? When he puts the meter on we only pull 45 amps...with almost everything on. We made sure to have all the stuff on that uses 220. We though the bad water heater was drawing too much since it was going bad and that wasn't the case. |
HarMegiddo
User ID: 79751988 United States 08/21/2021 03:52 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | You said your inside main didn't trip, is that on both legs of the bussbar? The things going through my mind first, were obviously the water heater neutral(probably 240) being tied to a 120 branch circuit neutral, with the water heater bad, electricity sounds like it's just trying to find a path to ground, and it may be. If your 100a is tripping at 45 amps, I'd be watching that meter. Try doing a load calc. and watching the meter. Calculate your KWH vs. Volt-amps you know are being used for like 10 minutes. The bad water heater may have just been backfeeding power to ground, or everywhere else. Other thought was an unbalanced load in your panel. Usually not terrible, you just want to make sure the normal appliances/circuits have balanced average on both legs(sides) of the panel. Bad water heater & a misplaced neutral somewhere down the line could've been the culprit. Obviously hard to know without shocking myself a couple times. HarMegiddo |
OpenHeartMonk
User ID: 79746458 Canada 08/21/2021 03:55 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | my guess is you have a short circuit in your hot water tank, keep that circuit breaker off until you replace it. Aether for the Soul [link to www.youtube.com (secure)] |
LSv2
User ID: 80616672 United States 08/21/2021 03:55 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
chuff1
User ID: 79267439 United States 08/21/2021 03:56 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | If you have a drop in voltage from your transformer on the pole, it would cause a larger than normal current draw. Check both legs and make sure there is 120vrms to neutral. Second, breakers open due to heat, once they heat up you have to let them cool or they trip quicker. |
sovereignwarrior
User ID: 80758896 United States 08/21/2021 03:59 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The element in the hot water heater is 220v. When the element shorted out, it created a fault between both phases which caused the main breaker to trip and go bad. Sometimes when there’s a fault like this, it can bypass the branch circuit breaker and trip the main. Since the main breaker hasn’t been exercised forever, it went bad |
Hiballdrinker222
User ID: 54614258 United States 08/21/2021 04:00 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
klotjap
User ID: 80758704 United States 08/21/2021 04:00 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Ozark Spark
User ID: 80772137 United States 08/21/2021 04:02 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Need more information. Brand and size of the main breakers, if you have a panel that is very outdated and questionable quality you should probably upgrade. Check the grounding at the water heater (be sure the frame is grounded) and your main service ground, check to insure all grounding conductors are tight. Make sure the grounding conductors are separated from the neutral conductors in any subpanel downstream of the main service. What size is the water heater breaker. What was the W/H drawing, if the elements were failing that could be your issue but, the first upstream breaker should have tripped not the main. Last Edited by Zarko on 08/21/2021 04:13 PM |
TheEmptyChild
(OP) User ID: 29469609 United States 08/21/2021 04:02 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Yeah, need pics. Quoting: HarMegiddo You said your inside main didn't trip, is that on both legs of the bussbar? The things going through my mind first, were obviously the water heater neutral(probably 240) being tied to a 120 branch circuit neutral, with the water heater bad, electricity sounds like it's just trying to find a path to ground, and it may be. If your 100a is tripping at 45 amps, I'd be watching that meter. Try doing a load calc. and watching the meter. Calculate your KWH vs. Volt-amps you know are being used for like 10 minutes. The bad water heater may have just been backfeeding power to ground, or everywhere else. Other thought was an unbalanced load in your panel. Usually not terrible, you just want to make sure the normal appliances/circuits have balanced average on both legs(sides) of the panel. Bad water heater & a misplaced neutral somewhere down the line could've been the culprit. Obviously hard to know without shocking myself a couple times. THIS is interesting. My initial thought was to blame the water heater. Also a lot of the breakers in the house box are on one side. We could possible do some moving around. I am going to run this by my buddy and see if we can narrow this down. In the mean time...would checking outlets for loose neutral wires be a good idea? |
Copious_Sedition
User ID: 80109041 United States 08/21/2021 04:04 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | OP a main breakers tripping outside when your breakers on the loads in your house don't trip isn't good. Could be a transformer or utilities issue. The breakers in the panel (water heater) should trip way before the main breaker. If you have 2 mains the house breakers would trip first if the issue was in the house (assuming the house side main is still good) A bad heating element in the electric water heater should be no heat or an immediate trip of the water heater circuit. |
Crypto-Tard
User ID: 78144147 United States 08/21/2021 04:05 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | my guess is you have a short circuit in your hot water tank, keep that circuit breaker off until you replace it. Quoting: OpenHeartMonk My money is on this first. Then check your grounds (might need to drive in a new copper ground rod) and replace the 100A main breaker. I'd start with that and don't use your existing hot water heater. When you are afraid of losing your life, you have already lost your life. Don't be afraid. |
CMcC
User ID: 80226562 United States 08/21/2021 04:06 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Copious_Sedition
User ID: 80109041 United States 08/21/2021 04:08 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Hiballdrinker222
User ID: 54614258 United States 08/21/2021 04:10 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
TheEmptyChild
(OP) User ID: 29469609 United States 08/21/2021 04:10 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Thank you for all the answers. This is great. We have a lot to look at now. It seems that the common denominator is the water heater though...right? Since we ARE changing the main box on the pole AND the hot water heater we SHOULD be able to narrow this down in the next few days. Now I have more to look into as we do this project. I needed to update the outside box anyway and I am having him put something in the box for a generator to plug in. |
Ozark Spark
User ID: 80772137 United States 08/21/2021 04:11 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Yeah, need pics. Quoting: HarMegiddo You said your inside main didn't trip, is that on both legs of the bussbar? The things going through my mind first, were obviously the water heater neutral(probably 240) being tied to a 120 branch circuit neutral, with the water heater bad, electricity sounds like it's just trying to find a path to ground, and it may be. If your 100a is tripping at 45 amps, I'd be watching that meter. Try doing a load calc. and watching the meter. Calculate your KWH vs. Volt-amps you know are being used for like 10 minutes. The bad water heater may have just been backfeeding power to ground, or everywhere else. Other thought was an unbalanced load in your panel. Usually not terrible, you just want to make sure the normal appliances/circuits have balanced average on both legs(sides) of the panel. Bad water heater & a misplaced neutral somewhere down the line could've been the culprit. Obviously hard to know without shocking myself a couple times. THIS is interesting. My initial thought was to blame the water heater. Also a lot of the breakers in the house box are on one side. We could possible do some moving around. I am going to run this by my buddy and see if we can narrow this down. In the mean time...would checking outlets for loose neutral wires be a good idea? That's NOT your problem, in residential panels you have 240 volts between two buss bars that are A/B down each side. |
TheEmptyChild
(OP) User ID: 29469609 United States 08/21/2021 04:13 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | my guess is you have a short circuit in your hot water tank, keep that circuit breaker off until you replace it. Quoting: OpenHeartMonk My money is on this first. Then check your grounds (might need to drive in a new copper ground rod) and replace the 100A main breaker. I'd start with that and don't use your existing hot water heater. This is my thought as well. If we change everything on the pole AND the water heater I hope the problem is fixed. Definitely checking the grounds. |
STLmo
User ID: 7305023 United States 08/21/2021 04:13 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | my guess is you have a short circuit in your hot water tank, keep that circuit breaker off until you replace it. Quoting: OpenHeartMonk This. I've been an electrician for 11 years doing mostly service calls just like this. It has nothing to do with grounds like one poster said. It's likely bypassing the water heater breaker and just tripping the main. The other possibility is that hot main breaker that you replaced, needs to have the busbar cleaned off with a wire brush. If it was getting hot, it can cause damage to the busbar the breaker snaps into and not be so obvious. So when you replace the main breaker, it still isn't making a good connection which creates heat, which causes the breaker to trip. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 77547432 Canada 08/21/2021 04:13 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Thank you for all the answers. This is great. We have a lot to look at now. Quoting: TheEmptyChild It seems that the common denominator is the water heater though...right? Since we ARE changing the main box on the pole AND the hot water heater we SHOULD be able to narrow this down in the next few days. Now I have more to look into as we do this project. I needed to update the outside box anyway and I am having him put something in the box for a generator to plug in. The common denominator is specifics. MY 17 year old phone would take good enough pics! (old phone wars begin)... |
BBQ BOY™
User ID: 72493816 United States 08/21/2021 04:14 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | OP if your water heater is bad and the breaker is bad you can test by running those wires to another breaker of the same size.ie a dryer or electric oven. Quoting: Copious_Sedition It would trip that 30,40,50 Amp breaker pretty quick. Or just swap that breaker to another 70 amp location like your Air conditioner and turn your air on. That would let you know if its the Breaker. "Never underestimate the pain of a person. In all honesty, everyone is struggling. Just some people are better at hiding it than others." Everyone has to work out their own salvation. Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards. |
BBQ BOY™
User ID: 72493816 United States 08/21/2021 04:14 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | double post Last Edited by BBQ BOY™ on 08/21/2021 04:14 PM "Never underestimate the pain of a person. In all honesty, everyone is struggling. Just some people are better at hiding it than others." Everyone has to work out their own salvation. Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards. |
TheEmptyChild
(OP) User ID: 29469609 United States 08/21/2021 04:14 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
TheEmptyChild
(OP) User ID: 29469609 United States 08/21/2021 04:15 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Thank you for all the answers. This is great. We have a lot to look at now. Quoting: TheEmptyChild It seems that the common denominator is the water heater though...right? Since we ARE changing the main box on the pole AND the hot water heater we SHOULD be able to narrow this down in the next few days. Now I have more to look into as we do this project. I needed to update the outside box anyway and I am having him put something in the box for a generator to plug in. The common denominator is specifics. MY 17 year old phone would take good enough pics! (old phone wars begin)... Heh...I'll see what I can do. |
Risingtide
User ID: 68220502 Canada 08/21/2021 04:16 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Electrician here, it’s likely your old hwt. Branch circuit breakers will often stay on while mains trip. You don’t need a new panel to resolve this issue. It was either a short between one of the element and tank from build up on a rotted element or the control mechanism between the two elements failed. |
Nonentity
User ID: 80539033 United States 08/21/2021 04:18 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Check for voltage drop and current draw. A broken neutral between the house and transformer would also cause these problems. Or you have a major short somewhere causing excessive current draw on one leg. Quoting: klotjap Agreed. Voltage loss from a break or loose connection can increase the amps big time. Last Edited by Nonentity on 08/21/2021 04:19 PM |
Ozark Spark
User ID: 80772137 United States 08/21/2021 04:21 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Also, if you have old copper water supply lines make sure those are bonded to your electrical system ground. When a water heater element goes bad it can energize the copper pipe if it's not properly bonded. Newer homes have all plastic so that isn't an issue but old houses with copper or galvanized supply lines can be dangerous if they aren't bonded. |