Godlike Productions - Discussion Forum
Users Online Now: 1,573 (Who's On?)Visitors Today: 105,496
Pageviews Today: 143,862Threads Today: 73Posts Today: 622
01:11 AM


Rate this Thread

Absolute BS Crap Reasonable Nice Amazing
 

The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages

 
astrolabe
User ID: 357362
United States
01/17/2008 11:26 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
We're From the Government and We're Here to Help

THE FOLLY OF FISCAL STIMULUS PACKAGES

Steve Chapman

January 17, 2008


In the best of times, most members of Congress are to fiscal irresponsibility what alcoholics are to the bottle—unable to resist even though they know they should. So imagine how our leaders will behave once they are told that budgetary indiscipline is no longer a vice but a virtue.

That's the counsel now from some economists and all three major Democratic presidential candidates. With a possible recession looming, they insist the federal government needs to provide a stimulus to the economy by spending or rebating money it doesn't have. That will put more cash in the pockets of consumers, who will then spend it, boosting the fortunes of companies and their employees and staving off a downturn. Or so the thinking goes.

Hillary Clinton has proposed a package that includes money to help homeowners pay mortgages they should not have taken out, as well as funds for "alternative energy investments" that might fail the cost-benefit test on their strict merits, and possibly direct rebates, too. Barack Obama wants to provide immediate tax cuts of $250 per person, while encouraging jobless workers to remain jobless by extending the time they can collect unemployment benefits. John Edwards' plan includes many of the same elements.

But skepticism is in order. Any money that the government lays out, after all, will not drop miraculously from the sky. Since the federal budget is already running a deficit, those funds will have to be obtained the old-fashioned way—by borrowing. More money would be spent by those who get the help, but less would be spent by those who provide it. So the whole transaction may add up to not much more than zero.

Giving money to people, as Obama urges, is the most direct type of stimulus. Oddly, though, there are only paltry grounds to prove it actually works. In 2001, the Treasury mailed rebates of $300 to $600 to taxpaying households, something the Bush administration later credited for invigorating the economy. In reality, later studies found, people generally declined to go out and spend, preferring to save the money or pay down debt. The booster rocket never left the launch pad.

Back in 1993, by contrast, President Clinton said a fiscal stimulus was essential to revive economic growth. But Congress refused, and the productive sector somehow managed to grope its way, unstimulated, into the longest peacetime expansion in history.

In their more sober moments, economists offer numerous reasons to treat fiscal stimulus as a wasteful charade. William Gale and Samara Potter of the center-left Brookings Institution noted in a 2002 study that tax changes of the sort being contemplated today have "a weak record in stimulating short-term economic activity."

Even if you believe a fiscal stimulus can work, it's unrealistic to think these plans would do the trick. Clinton and Obama envision packages worth $70 billion and $75 billion, respectively. But that amounts to just one-half of 1 percent of our annual output. It's like giving you a dollar every time you spend $200. Would that change your total economic activity? No? Then it probably won't rev up the nation's.

Another problem is that to succeed, a transfusion of federal cash has to be timed just right. That is not easy given that a) the legislative process often moves at the speed of continental drift and b) the president and Congress can't agree on whether the ocean is salty.

Peter Orszag, director of the Congressional Budget Office, told The Wall Street Journal, "Most of the stimulus options under consideration would be difficult to actually get out the door in the first half of 2008." By the time a program spreads its healing balm, we may find the recession has died a natural death—or was never born.

So we don't know that these efforts to stimulate the economy will have the helpful impact that has been promised. We do know, however, that they will have one regrettable consequence: putting the government—and thus the taxpaying public—deeper in debt.

We may never reap the benefits of a fiscal stimulus, if it comes to pass. But rest assured, we'll be paying the price for years to come.


[link to www.reason.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 336627
United States
01/18/2008 01:45 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
exactly this is a move of desperation.
Geode

User ID: 340118
United States
01/18/2008 02:42 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
And just as importantly, the covert tax of greater inflation which robs each of us through the loss of value of everything we own and our savings/life insurance/retirement plans/IRA accounts/Capital "gains"(where the increased price has the same or less actual value) etc., etc. To make matters worse they bump us up to the next tax level, and thus tax us an ever higher percentage on our less valuable earnings!!! Evil dudes and dudettes there in D.C., hoping to buy our votes with our own money.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 6907
United States
01/18/2008 03:21 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 357430
France
01/18/2008 03:32 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
read here :

Surviving The Greatest Financial Crash Ever

Thread: ***SURVIVING THE GREATEST FINANCIAL CRASH EVER ***


.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 93449
United States
01/18/2008 07:17 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
always remember that it is congress that taxes and spends.
I wonder how all the pork barrel congress persons feels today.

Does this mean that tax cuts for the rich or trickle down didn't work?? I think the only trickle down was on Baba Boosch's leg!!
BelieveYouMe

User ID: 173267
United States
01/18/2008 08:11 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
Why not pay China not to send their products over here, much like the farm subsidies pay farmers not grown crops. Then we could grow our own products here.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 184760
United States
01/18/2008 08:26 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
Why not pay China not to send their products over here, much like the farm subsidies pay farmers not grown crops. Then we could grow our own products here.
 Quoting: BelieveYouMe

CHina doesn't send their products over here..we buy them cause they are cheaper.
Jomama

User ID: 357474
United States
01/18/2008 08:30 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
Bernanke (Fed Chairman) may just issue credit cards to
the poor, stoked with Fed digits, so they can all live
thru what's coming.

'course he'd hafta go thru congress.

They'll oblige as they're the something-for-nothing
boyz.

1rof1
to herd or not to herd
[link to djomama.blogspot.com]
BelieveYouMe

User ID: 173267
United States
01/18/2008 08:51 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
CHina doesn't send their products over here..we buy them cause they are cheaper.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 184760


No there not cheaper they are cheap and in the long run they end up costing us more. The long run son.

note: just because there is no such thing as "the long run" that doesn't mean China is the answer.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 322602
United States
01/18/2008 10:54 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
this is not about us peeps, its about the corps. if we don't have any money to spend, who will support our corporations.

Its about big business ya fools.

its about paying your credit cards.

fuck, everybody should declare bankruptcy!!
Follower of the Way

User ID: 335844
United States
01/18/2008 10:59 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
I work for a Native American company and report to a tribe of Native Americans. They are like the board of directions.

They report to the Tribal Council. The council is elected by the Natives, much like secular elections.

The Council members get special rewards for their position, so they try to retain it for as long as possible.

Each election cycle, they go around promising money to the Natives in order to be elected again. We all know many Natives are poor and go for it.

The problem is, there is not much money anymore to give out. If they were smart, they'd create their own currency, but since they use dollars, there is only so much to go around.

My company makes much money and the Tribal Council tries to take the profit away from the company to hand out to keep their promise. Without the profit, the company cannot grow and increase jobs for the natives. So it's funny how it mimics what happens in the secular America.

My whole point is. Politicians bribe the public into voting for them. Whether it's good for the system or not.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 39024
United States
01/18/2008 11:22 AM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6907



We don't live in a Democracy, we live in a Republic for that very reason and others

[link to deoxy.org]
Kanandaa

User ID: 344118
Canada
01/18/2008 12:09 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
With a possible recession looming, they insist the federal government needs to provide a stimulus to the economy by spending or rebating money it doesn't have. That will put more cash in the pockets of consumers, who will then spend it, boosting the fortunes of companies and their employees and staving off a downturn. Or so the thinking goes.
 Quoting: astrolabe 357362


So the thinking goes, for those thinking within the confines of a broken system.

They want to give People a whole bunch of money? Not that this isn't a step in the right direction, but let's remember two key things here:

1) there would be no real debt in doing so, only alleged debt which lacks a)full disclosure about how the money was made (accounting entry), and b)fair and equal consideration (no real value because of how it was made);

2) 75-85% of that money would end up right back into the governments hands through taxation (how many corporations do goods pass through, and how many corporations don't pass on the cost of taxes to the final consumer).

And yeah, the whole buying votes thing should be #3.

There is still potential for such a program to help People, keeping their houses until NESARA system changes come about being one example, so as always, let's see what walk comes from this talk. I, for One, would still love to see less talk about money and more talk/action about what is really important right now, the restitution of the constitution/Rule of Law and the removal of corrupted politicians. Money isn't money until these changes happen, it is more debt that We are paying to use (debt on debt, the reason interest in a fiat currency system ensures its doom). Politicians helped start the Fed Res/Bank of Canada, politicians will go down with it if they continue to be fools by not supporting the changes that are happening.

Great work everyone, full steam ahead.

Namaste. hf
In Service To And As Our Highest Light, Love And Law,
Thank You God,
Much Love And Blessings To All That Is,
:D
Danny/Kanandaa
astrolabe
User ID: 357627
Netherlands
01/18/2008 12:58 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
Bernanke (Fed Chairman) may just issue credit cards to
the poor, stoked with Fed digits, so they can all live
thru what's coming.

'course he'd hafta go thru congress.

They'll oblige as they're the something-for-nothing
boyz.

1rof1
 Quoting: Jomama



Oh Lord, Jomama... this sounds like a hybrid of NESARA and Franklin Roosevelt. Hyper-inflation here we come. Wasayo
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 309282
United States
01/18/2008 01:36 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
Send everyone a 150000. That would be a good stimulus.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 39024
United States
01/18/2008 02:18 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
if you don't want yours just send it to me
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 330782
United States
01/18/2008 02:55 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.



We don't live in a Democracy, we live in a Republic for that very reason and others

[link to deoxy.org]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 39024

Technically its a Constitutional Republic. It can hardly be called a democracy as it is a very limited democracy. Federally speaking at the Federal Level the democracy only exists between the 535 members of Congress. 535 representing over 300 Million US Citizens. Definitely NOT a Democracy. But we don't want a democracy anyways as a full democracy is exactly the same as Mob Rule.

At the Several States level that is the 50 States, they too are Constitutional Republics, and the only democracy normally practiced in them is between the members of their respective State Legislatures.

At the County level, look for democracy and you will find it most of the time only among the County Board of Supervisors or whatever the County government is called.

At the City Level look for democracy and you will find it normally only among the members of the City Councils.

It is very rare that there is a public referendum, (which is yet not a full democracy, as only some of the people can vote anyways).

There is as a result very little democracy at any level of government within the USA.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 330782
United States
01/18/2008 03:02 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
The problem is that we have a case of Over Stimulation as it is, much as a drug addict constantly increasing the amount of drug they have to use to acheive the same level of "high".

Another metaphor would be a blood tranfusion into a body that is bleeding out all over the place at the same time you are trying to pump new blood into it. Sometimes you just have to let the patient die.

We need to return to the basis of the type of Economy laid down by the US Constitution, where the Congress regulates the value of all foreign currency, and coins its own money.

The problem is that the USA has been through a considerable number of Bankrupcies, some Chapter 13, some Chapter 11, but is right now trying to stave off a Chapter 7 Bankrupcy.

Any more "stimulation" of the economy by the Fed will drive the USA into hyperinflation. Which will destroy the very fabric of the American economy and bring the rest of the world down with it.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 330782
United States
01/18/2008 03:03 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
Ambac was just downgraded from AAA rating to a AA rating.
wimperindog
User ID: 18839
United States
01/18/2008 03:07 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
Obviously doling out tax money to taxpayers, even if the government COULD get it done in a timely fashion (not), will not help the economic situation one iota. The question arises, then, WHY would the idea even be entertained? Here are some of my guesses. Feel free to add your own.

1. TPTB know that EVERYONE is sick and tired of hearing the career politicians' campaign promises. We need something else to hear and talk about.

2. This "chicken in every pot" theory may have bleed-over effect for the coming election. The republicans can say they gave us all $$, hence the sheeple will vote republican.

3. TPTB need to act AS IF they know what to do in the current crisis. Of course they don't, but that's of little consequence. It's the 'AS IF' that counts. (They learned this lesson by way of busch reading a book about goats, upside down, as our country was being 'attacked.')

4. While they're printing up all that big money to hand out to all us little peons, they can easily print up zillions more for themselves...who's counting?

5. It gives the career politicians something else to haggle over in Congress. Of course they will never come to an agreement, but everyone becomes embroiled in watching who said what, when, and how. Hopefully the populace (little peons) will forget about the reason they're haggling.

I'm sure there are many other reasons. Care to add your guesses?
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 258525
United States
01/18/2008 03:32 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
Here is what I would like to see happen.

The government would allow you to withdraw money from your 401K or IRA to pay off/down your home mortguage. No taxes, no penalty no nothing.

This may or may not help those who are close to forclosure, but would possibly help many keep there homes if things get really bad.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 301703
Canada
01/18/2008 03:40 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
...hoping to buy our votes with our own money.
 Quoting: Geode


Yeah, but it works like a charm. People have really short memories, and they fall for it every time.

That's the part that cracks me up.

tomato
The OP

User ID: 357214
Bolivia
01/18/2008 05:17 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
exactly this is a move of desperation.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 336627

Sounds a little more like a "move to communism"

Seriously this is the sort of thing a socialist government would do, you Americans are so famous for your left-phobia yet the government does this! Awesome!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 330782
United States
01/18/2008 05:39 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
"When they get to $250,000 per American, then we'll know they are sincere."
D.Smith
User ID: 357567
United States
01/18/2008 05:46 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
WE have come to believe ourselves entitled to wealth and prosperity.

Pretending that the 'market' and 'capitalism' uncontrolled and unfettered will keep us great

WE were told there was not a need to control greed that it was good for us to consume, and that as long as we continued to consume everything would be fine.

Capitalism has no country, no conscience, no since of dignity, no since of purpose, no since of fairness or honesty. That is the job of human beings, who were suppose to insure capitalism and the market adhered to order and remained under control of the common welfare, it was our job not to allow it to fall in to the hands of the privileged few, we have failed, instead we have been ignorant and abdicated our duties. Now huge companies are controlling the world, making laws to protect the rights of corporations, rights that should have only been given to human beings, making us second class citizens to entities that or beholding to no vote, no country, no government entity.
D.Smith
User ID: 357567
United States
01/18/2008 05:46 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
WE have come to believe ourselves entitled to wealth and prosperity.

Pretending that the 'market' and 'capitalism' uncontrolled and unfettered will keep us great

WE were told there was not a need to control greed that it was good for us to consume, and that as long as we continued to consume everything would be fine.

Capitalism has no country, no conscience, no since of dignity, no since of purpose, no since of fairness or honesty. That is the job of human beings, who were suppose to insure capitalism and the market adhered to order and remained under control of the common welfare, it was our job not to allow it to fall in to the hands of the privileged few, we have failed, instead we have been ignorant and abdicated our duties. Now huge companies are controlling the world, making laws to protect the rights of corporations, rights that should have only been given to human beings, making us second class citizens to entities that or beholding to no vote, no country, no government entity.
D.Smith
User ID: 357567
United States
01/18/2008 05:46 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
WE have come to believe ourselves entitled to wealth and prosperity.

Pretending that the 'market' and 'capitalism' uncontrolled and unfettered will keep us great

WE were told there was not a need to control greed that it was good for us to consume, and that as long as we continued to consume everything would be fine.

Capitalism has no country, no conscience, no since of dignity, no since of purpose, no since of fairness or honesty. That is the job of human beings, who were suppose to insure capitalism and the market adhered to order and remained under control of the common welfare, it was our job not to allow it to fall in to the hands of the privileged few, we have failed, instead we have been ignorant and abdicated our duties. Now huge companies are controlling the world, making laws to protect the rights of corporations, rights that should have only been given to human beings, making us second class citizens to entities that or beholding to no vote, no country, no government entity.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 18243
United States
01/18/2008 05:46 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
The budget needs to be cut and the deficit reduced to try to keep the dollar from being devalued further. Are they that stupid? The country is going bankrupt and they want to give everyone more money....unbelieveable.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 338225
United States
01/18/2008 06:08 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
I will vote for the Candidate promising me the most money.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 357765
United States
01/18/2008 06:16 PM
Report Abusive Post
Report Copyright Violation
Re: The Folly of Fiscal Stimulus Packages
I was wondering how the fuck 800 or even 1600 bucks will help me pay my 4200 dollar mortgage...?





GLP