Pre-Trib Rapture? How Does the Last Trump Happen BEFORE that? - KJV Bible Sutdy

False doctrine?

Christians are graffed into Israel. Paul is clear on this - on TOP of the Father stating several times in the Old Testament that He would reconcile the Gentiles back to Him.

2 Believer Resurrections? Says who?

Scripture doesn't show that.

The First Resurrection in Revelation is of Believers - the same that Paul talks about in 1 Thessalonians 4.

The Second Resurrection is non-believers headed to the Lake of Fire.

You are absolutely correct. It is after the tribulation period. Keep in mind I was raised to believe in the pre-trib rapture until God showed me how it is wrong.

The details of the timing of the when the tribulation happens (right about now) and the timing of the rapture once the tribulation starts are laid out in the first few posts in this thread:

Thread: Rapture Harpazo is 40 days into the Day of the Lord.

But I disagree with using the work "tard' to address people who don't yet know. What do you and I have in knowledge or posessions that we did not receive from heaven? If God had not shown me the truth, I would not have known. We are beggars for understanding from the same God as they.

Good thread servant of the Lord, you are correct, definetly no pretrib rapture. Most luke warm christians will be deceived and accept the antichrist and mark of the beast failing to understand the antichrist comes before Jesus returns. When the illuminati stage their "christ" but actually antichrist coming as the saviour of man, most so called christians will bend the knee to him and his false peace. The antichrist will behead many true Christians with the support of the masonic megachurchs and mother harlot roman catholic church. By the way, the illuminati will project a false coming of Christ in the sky to usher in the antichrist and world government and world religion. The satelittes and tech nasa puts up will project images in the sky making every religion think their messiah is coming and he is one and the same, this will be the antichrist, the messiah of the heathen. He will appear to bring peace to the bloody chaos we are entering.

Matthew 24:24

King James Version

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I started out perplexed as well.
What I do find peace in is looking through the Bible for examples.

One day, inside, I heard "Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego" repeatedly.
"I will put a seal on their forehead"
"As in the days of Noah"
"Crossing the Red Sea"
"1 Thessalonians 5:8..."

8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

Then came the revelation of the trumpets of the great tribulations vs the wrath of God. THAT is what we are raptured out of the way of. Jesus will be with us through the tribulations, like through the furnace was burning 7 times hotter with the 3. We will walk through the great tribulation with Jesus by our side. Like with Peter walking on water. KEEP YOUR EYES ON JESUS OR YOU(ME EVERYONE) WILL SINK.

Keep up the Lord's work and thank you.

R

You do realize that the book of Revelations was not written when Paul wrote about the last trump, right?

You really need to study up brother or sister.



Last Edited by S.O.S. on 05/14/2022 12:41 AM

--- 'Quickly' doesn't mean 'soon' or 'immenant'.

2000 years later proves such. ---

Scripturaly, Heanvenly speaking, this was 2 days ago...

2 Peter 3:8
New International Version
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

SOOOOO, Don't forget, he rose on the third day. <-- Rapture, happens in the air.
2nd coming, he comes back DOWN TO EARTH. Save some copy paste go here -> s3. amazonaws .com/media.cloversites.com/9a/9a298965-99e0-4ae3-ad6c-7779b84​feb2a/documents/The_Difference_Between_the_Rapture_and_Second​_Coming_of_Christ.pdf

That's what you people claim - but no scripture supports that.

So...how many 'last trump's' do you think there is?

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,

at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,

and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed.

...

Compare that to this....

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend
from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel,

and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain

shall be caught up together with them

in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Donald Trump must die first

2 Thessalonians 1:8
“In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”

King James Version (KJV)



Please obey the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ
This is how...

Matthew 28:17-20
King James Version
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

People who say that there will be a literal 'Last Trump' when Jesus returns - are short-sighted. Do you bro really believe that for eternity of eternities, no more trumpets will be blown?

The Bible is a book based on Covenants, Eras, Dispensations. In accordance, the last trump is not the literal last trump, it is the last trumpet call in a particular dispensation. The last trump - is the last trump in the age of Grace, the Church age.

Go figure.

"church age"? Where is that in the Bible?

It's not there.

.....

You obviously don't believe what Paul said.
And Jesus also said 'trumpet'.

1. In vers 16 Paul says 'the trump of God'...

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

2. Which 'trump'? The LAST Trump. That's NOT before the Tribulation

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Pre-Trib Tards claim that Paul never taught about Christians going through Tribulation. What do you call this?

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Hebrews first, and also of the Gentiles;

Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

2 Corinthians 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

2 Corinthians 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

This. Good explanation. It is very hard to debate with people like the OP though, reason being, they are not reading the Bible, dividing it properly and keeping it in context.

The Catholic church destroyed the truth of eschatology and created great hatred for I-rael. They spiritualized most of prophecy, implemented pagan beliefs and practices and they stopped generations from reading the Bible for themselves. They used it for control and wealth.

When the reformers broke off, they understood grace through faith, but they kept much of the Spiritualization of prophecy, so the obvious plain sense reading of the pre tribulation rapture, a literal Millenial kingdom, the seven year Trib....these things were not taught by many denominations.

Those who were taught that the church replaces I-rael, taught that the Body of Christ will go through the Trib as some kind of purification or Christian limbo....there are so many combinations of these false ideas that it is incredible, really. And when someone latches onto them it is almost impossible to get them to see Biblical truth.

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus, not by works. Paul taught we are to rightly divide the Scripture. We are taught by Paul that we will be raptured before the man of lawlessness is revealed...the restrainer is removed first, and the restrainer is the age of grace and the holy spirit filled Christians in it. The Thessalonians thought that they had missed the rapture because false teachers came behind Paul teaching that they had missed the Rapture. Paul replied, the man of lawlessness cannot be revealed until after the restrainer is gone.

The body of Christ is not meant for wrath. Jesus paid the full price of God's wrath. The entire seven year Tribulation is God's wrath. Christ is opening the seals and pouring out the wrath. He is not pouring wrath on His own body.

It is easy to understand, but like I said, I have seen people with agendas write entire books taking Scripture out of context in order to try and call it false. It really comes down to grace. Works based false teachers think we have to do our part. Christ did it all, if you place your person in anything else at all, you arent saved.

This. Good explanation. It is very hard to debate with people like the OP though, reason being, they are not reading the Bible, dividing it properly and keeping it in context.

The Catholic church destroyed the truth of eschatology and created great hatred for I-rael. They spiritualized most of prophecy, implemented pagan beliefs and practices and they stopped generations from reading the Bible for themselves. They used it for control and wealth.

When the reformers broke off, they understood grace through faith, but they kept much of the Spiritualization of prophecy, so the obvious plain sense reading of the pre tribulation rapture, a literal Millenial kingdom, the seven year Trib....these things were not taught by many denominations.

Those who were taught that the church replaces I-rael, taught that the Body of Christ will go through the Trib as some kind of purification or Christian limbo....there are so many combinations of these false ideas that it is incredible, really. And when someone latches onto them it is almost impossible to get them to see Biblical truth.

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus, not by works. Paul taught we are to rightly divide the Scripture. We are taught by Paul that we will be raptured before the man of lawlessness is revealed...the restrainer is removed first, and the restrainer is the age of grace and the holy spirit filled Christians in it. The Thessalonians thought that they had missed the rapture because false teachers came behind Paul teaching that they had missed the Rapture. Paul replied, the man of lawlessness cannot be revealed until after the restrainer is gone.

The body of Christ is not meant for wrath. Jesus paid the full price of God's wrath. The entire seven year Tribulation is God's wrath. Christ is opening the seals and pouring out the wrath. He is not pouring wrath on His own body.

It is easy to understand, but like I said, I have seen people with agendas write entire books taking Scripture out of context in order to try and call it false. It really comes down to grace. Works based false teachers think we have to do our part. Christ did it all, if you place your person in anything else at all, you arent saved.

We do go through general tribulation, the wrath of man. The seven year tribulation is God's wrath. Paul went through many tribulations, he is writing about preaching the gospel and being chained to guards and being shipwrecked and being beat up. All Christians's go through that in some form. The early Christian's were cut in half and eaten by wolves. That is Rome's wrath. Not God's.

There are still many Christian's killed in places like China, the Middle East, etc, for their faith. We in the West have been blessed with alot of freedom. That seems to be ending soon though.

The Bible explicitly says that we are not meant for God's wrath. The seals are opened at the beginning of the Trib.

Well if you knew what the last trump actually was you would know it happens every year at a specific time.


Argumentative

Says who?

Revelation 20 clearly shows that Believers went THROUGH the Great Tribulation - as Paul said "WE who are alive and REMAIN".

.....

The 'scene' of the "tribulation saints" in Revelation 20 is AFTER Satan has been cast into the pit for a thousand years.

That is NOT BEFORE the End Times Tribulation

Revelation 20:4

[link to www.biblegateway.com (secure)]

Revelation 20:2-7 KJV

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him,
that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were

beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image,
neither had received his mark
upon their foreheads, or in their hands;

and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

The Great Tribulation isn't wrath.

NO scripture says 'the church' goes ANYWHERE.

Jesus returns ONCE.

After the Rapture happens, do you think you will be furious?

Or would you be humbled and repentant?

I already told Father God that IF there is a pre-trib rapture - He coould leve me behind to help others.

I'm not worried.

Scripture doesn't support Jesus returniing more than once.

I agree in a post Tribulation Rapture...

We will be tested to see if we are worthy to be God's Children. It's a choice. Be with God or be with Satan and be thrown in the lake of fire...

doublepost

Last Edited by DuckNCover on 05/21/2022 12:44 AM

hen chapter 20 says that we, the redeemed, are going to reign with the Lord Jesus Christ for a thousand years. That reign is not described here in great detail. You will find the detailed description of it in the Old Testament, particularly in the book of Isaiah. We are told that Jesus will rule with “a rod of iron,” and we are told that some people will reign with Him specifically, those to whom judgment has been given.

Now who, specifically, will reign with Jesus? According to Daniel 7, Old Testament Saints will be included in this group: “The saints of the highest one will receive the kingdom . . . Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatest of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the highest one.” The apostles will also be included. In Matthew 19:28 Jesus promised His apostles that “in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

Those of us who have become Saints during the church age will certainly be included. That promise is made in several places in the New Testament. For example, in Revelation 2 it states: “And he who overcomes . . . To him I will give authority over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron….” Finally, the Tribulation martyrs who die for Jesus will be included according to Revelation 20: “And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus . . . And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”

You did exactly what I have been saying about misusing context. In this instance you blatantly ignore that John saw a group of people on thrones. Then he says, THEN he saw another group, those that had been beheaded. The first group on the thrones is the Body of Christ.

This commentary nails it.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.

John sees certain people sitting on thrones have the privilege to judge in a vision. He does not give their identity. Other Scriptures tell us that saints will judge the world.

“Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?” (1 Corinthians 6:1).

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

A second group who will reign is the martyrs of the Tribulation

Paul says that we will be raptured, harpazoed in the Greek. That we will meet Jesus in the air, predeced by those saved people in the grave.

The apostles only thought He was coming once too. They thought He was coming to be king. They missed the entire part about the sacrifice and the suffering lamb.

Paul says that God revealed to him a mystery hid in Him from the beginning of time. The age of grace, the Body of Christ, the rapture of the Body of Christ, ie the restrainer being removed before the Tribulation. These things were a mystery, revealed to Paul for the first time.

You arent dividing Scripture properly, that is the fault in your views. You sound like a devout Catholic priest ready to be whipped for the Lord. The problem is you are applying Jesus's teaching to the J-ws to the Body of Christ. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. Gentiles were never given the law at all. We are given the good news of Jesus and given forgiveness and absolute grace through faith as a gift from God almighty. It has nothing to do with us being beat up or whipped or "working our way". When you believe that you reduce Jesus and His sacrifice and suffering to a footnote in your continuing work of self sacrifice and self salvation.

Jesus did it ALL. No man can brag. But post trib people always keep bragging about how they are ready to stay in the Trib and fight for Jesus, apparently rather than being with Jesus as He teaches will happen, through Paul, before the Trib.

"Proof that the Tribulation is NOT Gods Wrath"

6th Seal is the 'dividing line' between Tribulation and Wrath.

[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

Ive seen it. When Steve Anderson preaches it I generally know if is false teaching. He is one of the worst teachers out there. A real hateful bigot who hate J-ws, thinks gay people should be executed and he teaches replacement theology. He has about as much in common with a Holy Spirit filled Christian as the devil.

You folks write reams of paragraphs with NO scripture - just "statements'.

Most pastors want a "church" of followers.
They are "forced" in some regards to preach things that are popular versus what is actual scriptural TRUTH.

1. No scripture states that Believers / "the Church" will miss Tribulation.

2. No scripture states that Jesus returns BEFORE "the day of the Lord".

3. No scripture states that Jesus returns MORE than once.

4. No scripture states that Jesus takes "the Church" to heaven for any period of time.

5. No scripture states that Tribulation only happens to the Hebrews.

Jesus clearly states that it will encompase the entire Earth.