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If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source

 
Anonymous Coward
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08/28/2022 04:31 PM
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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77928881


Thread: Jesus' judgment of YOU

epiclol
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77928881


Thread: In the beginning was the Word (Page 3)
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77928881


This thread serves to seperate those who like shit sandwiches from them who want truth in advertising.


Sure are a lot of shit eaters.


epiclol
Anonymous Coward
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08/28/2022 04:35 PM
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Keep straing at gnats while deep throating a camel.

And I don't mean a cigarette.
Copperegla  (OP)

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08/28/2022 04:49 PM

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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
It always aggravates me the name thing, Jesus, was never his name, it was Aramaic, I’m sure you understand.

So much about ancient writings is very askew.

I have read a translation of the common Lords Prayer, by the Sufi scholar,
Neil Douglas-Klotz, Ph.D, at the time, if this translation is valid, God, is termed mother/ father, the duality, that’s how it lands in Aramaic. Something like that shifts the whole biblical paradigm, but it is ignored by the early churches.

I hate dogma, it wrecks the planet, it would be nice if holy books were accurate.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79863586


I hear you. Amazing though the power in the name Jesus, as people cast out demons.

The text says the Messiah has multiple names and titles, and the gospel will be shared throughout the world in different languages.

I think the people who are drawn to the literal Aramaic and H-brew are primarily scholars wanting to get as close as possible to the source. There's a certain irony it ultimately though, because the source is Holy Spirit and not ink.

Regarding your question about pronouns, I've thoroughly studied that in Aramaic. The Aramaic consistently uses the masculine for God, Son, and Holy Spirit. Angels too are almost always masculine. There is one instance in Revelation 11 where a female spirit is referenced in relation to a male spirit. I found that very interesting, but again in Aramaic the female pronoun is never used for God, Son, or Holy Spirit.

One time I debated online another Aramaic scholar who tried to claim female pronouns for the author of the fourth gospel. I showed very clearly the debater was falsely inserting words into the text. Its sad when folks get so keen on an ideology they will change literal text to fit their narrative. Nowhere is this more prevalent than the false translation "everlasting". Here's my blog and video on that subject: [link to www.logicalhierarchy.com (secure)]
Matthew 7:2 & 7:12 are a prophecy specific to you, "By the judgment that you judge, you will be judged. And by the measure that you measure, you will be measured.... Whatever you want a person to do to you, do also to them, for this is the law and the prophets."
Anonymous Coward
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08/28/2022 04:57 PM
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Problem.... People want to hide truth, not just about God, but everything. Take for example nutrition, weight loss, medicine.

But the most devious is the Catholic church, their killing, and confiscating of original languages, books written by Christians in the dark ages ETC.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
Begone, dark star…
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 42762838

Anonymous Coward 42762838

So you have judged me first.

Surely you find yourself most righteous..

Who do YOU say that Jesus Christ is?

.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84087633


Who do YOU say that Jesus Christ is, most self-righteous one?
Anonymous Coward
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08/28/2022 05:07 PM
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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
Wow, it looks like you’ve put in quite a bit of time & energy into producing this document. Thanks for sharing it.

I’m still trying to understand the significance though. I’m not a scholar like you and I do look up to you for all of this work.

Your work is based on documents from the twelfth century…whereas the Romans filtered the known scriptures in the third century in Nicaea (got their story straight if you will).

Are you implying that the Romans had some specific reason for leaving out the version of scripture you have been studying? You say right up front that the oldest known record of the Aramaic “bible” did not show up until some 800 years after the Roman Council settled the issue.

I sure hope the archeological scholars of the future don’t come across fragments of the National Enquirer thinking that it is an accurate portrayal of American spiritual thinking.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
It always aggravates me the name thing, Jesus, was never his name, it was Aramaic, I’m sure you understand.

So much about ancient writings is very askew.

I have read a translation of the common Lords Prayer, by the Sufi scholar,
Neil Douglas-Klotz, Ph.D, at the time, if this translation is valid, God, is termed mother/ father, the duality, that’s how it lands in Aramaic. Something like that shifts the whole biblical paradigm, but it is ignored by the early churches.

I hate dogma, it wrecks the planet, it would be nice if holy books were accurate.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79863586


I hear you. Amazing though the power in the name Jesus, as people cast out demons.

The text says the Messiah has multiple names and titles, and the gospel will be shared throughout the world in different languages.

I think the people who are drawn to the literal Aramaic and H-brew are primarily scholars wanting to get as close as possible to the source. There's a certain irony it ultimately though, because the source is Holy Spirit and not ink.

Regarding your question about pronouns, I've thoroughly studied that in Aramaic. The Aramaic consistently uses the masculine for God, Son, and Holy Spirit. Angels too are almost always masculine. There is one instance in Revelation 11 where a female spirit is referenced in relation to a male spirit. I found that very interesting, but again in Aramaic the female pronoun is never used for God, Son, or Holy Spirit.

One time I debated online another Aramaic scholar who tried to claim female pronouns for the author of the fourth gospel. I showed very clearly the debater was falsely inserting words into the text. Its sad when folks get so keen on an ideology they will change literal text to fit their narrative. Nowhere is this more prevalent than the false translation "everlasting". Here's my blog and video on that subject: [link to www.logicalhierarchy.com (secure)]
 Quoting: Copperegla


Not only are demons cast out in the name of Jesus Christ, but my prayers have been and are answered in His name.
Copperegla  (OP)

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08/28/2022 05:15 PM

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Not only are demons cast out in the name of Jesus Christ, but my prayers have been and are answered in His name.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 42762838


Great point about prayer, especially as you've given the most relatable point.

I'm reminded of John 21, where the Messiah appears on the shoreline (reincarnates if you will) as an older man. And the one who recognizes Messiah first was the beloved disciple. Imagine it's like connecting with the heart before the traditional senses of sight and sound. I think it all works together, but the heart has a primary purpose for some reason.
Matthew 7:2 & 7:12 are a prophecy specific to you, "By the judgment that you judge, you will be judged. And by the measure that you measure, you will be measured.... Whatever you want a person to do to you, do also to them, for this is the law and the prophets."
Anonymous Coward
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08/28/2022 05:42 PM
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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
It always aggravates me the name thing, Jesus, was never his name, it was Aramaic, I’m sure you understand.

So much about ancient writings is very askew.

I have read a translation of the common Lords Prayer, by the Sufi scholar,
Neil Douglas-Klotz, Ph.D, at the time, if this translation is valid, God, is termed mother/ father, the duality, that’s how it lands in Aramaic. Something like that shifts the whole biblical paradigm, but it is ignored by the early churches.

I hate dogma, it wrecks the planet, it would be nice if holy books were accurate.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79863586


I hear you. Amazing though the power in the name Jesus, as people cast out demons.

The text says the Messiah has multiple names and titles, and the gospel will be shared throughout the world in different languages.

I think the people who are drawn to the literal Aramaic and H-brew are primarily scholars wanting to get as close as possible to the source. There's a certain irony it ultimately though, because the source is Holy Spirit and not ink.

Regarding your question about pronouns, I've thoroughly studied that in Aramaic. The Aramaic consistently uses the masculine for God, Son, and Holy Spirit. Angels too are almost always masculine. There is one instance in Revelation 11 where a female spirit is referenced in relation to a male spirit. I found that very interesting, but again in Aramaic the female pronoun is never used for God, Son, or Holy Spirit.

One time I debated online another Aramaic scholar who tried to claim female pronouns for the author of the fourth gospel. I showed very clearly the debater was falsely inserting words into the text. Its sad when folks get so keen on an ideology they will change literal text to fit their narrative. Nowhere is this more prevalent than the false translation "everlasting". Here's my blog and video on that subject: [link to www.logicalhierarchy.com (secure)]
 Quoting: Copperegla


Thanks, I will so check out your link.

I get hung up on names, and mistranslations, bugs me.

If for instance I was a human of significant importance, and my name was Aristotle, but for centuries everyone called me Johnny, I’d be pissed, it would not resonate.

J wasn’t even a letter until 15th century I believe, the Jesus thing doesn’t work in my perspective. He had a name, erroneous men changed it to suit their need.
Copperegla  (OP)

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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
Wow, it looks like you’ve put in quite a bit of time & energy into producing this document. Thanks for sharing it.

I’m still trying to understand the significance though. I’m not a scholar like you and I do look up to you for all of this work.

Your work is based on documents from the twelfth century…whereas the Romans filtered the known scriptures in the third century in Nicaea (got their story straight if you will).

Are you implying that the Romans had some specific reason for leaving out the version of scripture you have been studying? You say right up front that the oldest known record of the Aramaic “bible” did not show up until some 800 years after the Roman Council settled the issue.

I sure hope the archeological scholars of the future don’t come across fragments of the National Enquirer thinking that it is an accurate portrayal of American spiritual thinking.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 23196659


Great questions, and that's funny re National Enquirer. Until those Vatican vaults open up and we get to see what they've hidden from us, I think in any given decade, archaeology is our best opportunity to learn new things. Dead sea scrolls was proof of that.

Today and historically, scholarly consensus is the oldest known fragments of the gospel are in Koine Greek. But even those fragments are dated to a time (circa 90AD) decades after the Christians fled Israel and the scribes were making translations in Greek and Latin for wealthy patrons. Many of these patrons had guarded libraries and vaults to safeguard their treasures, so it makes sense Greek and Latin fragments could survive. The early Christians lived differently and had different financial means.

Aramaic does have the dead sea scrolls found in pots in a cave, which is quite the claim to fame today (for the accuracy of the Old Testament).

Among Aramaic primacists (like myself), the two main reasons Aramaic is considered so reliable today:

(1) Separateness. The Aramaic church was completely separate from the Catholic church (both geographically and governmentally), so it never even had the pressure, means, or opportunity to go Greek. According to its traditions, this Church of the East has stayed consistently with Aramaic for 2,000 years! And its earliest periods were so loosely governed that you might say it was ungovernable. This also helps answer your question "Romans got their story straight if you will". With that said, your point still has some validity (mostly as an unanswerable question), because the Church of the East was aware of and seemed to be recognizing the canonical decisions of the Catholic Church circa 5th century. Details here: [link to www.peshitta.org]

(2) Scribal procedure. Like the H-brew scribes before them, the Aramaic scribes were known for counting every letter to ensure accurate copies. It was an imperfect process though, so there are a handful of scribal errors between copies.
Matthew 7:2 & 7:12 are a prophecy specific to you, "By the judgment that you judge, you will be judged. And by the measure that you measure, you will be measured.... Whatever you want a person to do to you, do also to them, for this is the law and the prophets."
Anonymous Coward
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08/28/2022 05:43 PM
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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
Here is the Aramaic prayer...

[link to abwoon.org (secure)]
Horticulture

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08/28/2022 05:59 PM

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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
Thanks OP! Good explanation. I use several translations of the Bible including George Lamsa's translation from the ancient "Aramaic of the Peshitta". I often compare particular versions such as KJV, NKJV, and the Hebraic Roots Bible with the Aramaic version. There is a high degree of consistency within these four translations, but every once in awhile the Aramaic translation may use a few different words which makes the scripture more clear or adds new meaning. I also like having a translation from the language Jesus spoke the most growing up!

Last Edited by Horticulture on 08/28/2022 06:01 PM
Copperegla  (OP)

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08/28/2022 06:03 PM

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I like the rope analogy. You could get it through..a string at a time by unraveling it first.

 Quoting: Seer777


Good example, I'd never thought of that before. The string would no longer be a rope, but rather the potentiality of a rope. Perhaps like a fractal that can compress or expand without self-destruction.
Matthew 7:2 & 7:12 are a prophecy specific to you, "By the judgment that you judge, you will be judged. And by the measure that you measure, you will be measured.... Whatever you want a person to do to you, do also to them, for this is the law and the prophets."
daughteroftheking8

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Oh my, I"m so jealous of your rare abilities! I've studies the bible for the last 15 years, but sadly I only speak english and I know that I'm missing so much!

I also know so much has been lost or twisted in translation. Sometimes I look up words in strongs, but even that doesn't help much.

I wish I knew how to speak those languages, it would benefit me so much.

Thanks for sharing OP, super interesting stuff!!

hf
daughteroftheking8
Copperegla  (OP)

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08/28/2022 06:08 PM

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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
Thanks OP! Good explanation. I use several translations of the Bible including George Lamsa's translation from the ancient "Aramaic of the Peshitta". I often compare particular versions such as KJV, NKJV, and the Hebraic Roots Bible with the Aramaic version. There is a high degree of consistency within these four translations, but every once in awhile the Aramaic translation may use a few different words which makes the scripture more clear or adds new meaning. I also like having a translation from the language Jesus spoke the most growing up!
 Quoting: Horticulture


That's great! Do you have a favorite bible verse from Revelation to share on this Sunday? (The book of Revelation begins with the statement that John was praying in Patmos on the first day of the week, or has he says literally "1 in 7").
Matthew 7:2 & 7:12 are a prophecy specific to you, "By the judgment that you judge, you will be judged. And by the measure that you measure, you will be measured.... Whatever you want a person to do to you, do also to them, for this is the law and the prophets."
Horticulture

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08/28/2022 06:22 PM

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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
Thanks OP! Good explanation. I use several translations of the Bible including George Lamsa's translation from the ancient "Aramaic of the Peshitta". I often compare particular versions such as KJV, NKJV, and the Hebraic Roots Bible with the Aramaic version. There is a high degree of consistency within these four translations, but every once in awhile the Aramaic translation may use a few different words which makes the scripture more clear or adds new meaning. I also like having a translation from the language Jesus spoke the most growing up!
 Quoting: Horticulture


That's great! Do you have a favorite bible verse from Revelation to share on this Sunday? (The book of Revelation begins with the statement that John was praying in Patmos on the first day of the week, or has he says literally "1 in 7").
 Quoting: Copperegla


Yes, happy to share one of my favorites. John first conveys his own greeting to the seven churches and then:

"And from Jesus Christ who is the faithful witness, and the first to arise from the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. To him who loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood.

And has made us a spiritual kingdom to God and his Father, to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

Revelation 1:5-6
daughteroftheking8

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OP, do you have any insights on the mark of the beast scriptures in revelation?
daughteroftheking8
Copperegla  (OP)

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OP, do you have any insights on the mark of the beast scriptures in revelation?
 Quoting: daughteroftheking8


Yes, thanks for asking. The relevant verses are Revelation 13:16-18 (mark of the beast between the eyes or right hand; given to anyone, rich/poor, great/small; can't buy or sell; 666 and the number of his name).

In the original Aramaic text, the term 'mark' is ruShma, meaning tattoo or inscription. That Aramaic word ruShma is also a wordplay for rhuma Shma ("Roman name").  

So the mark of the beast is probably a biometric ID tattoo, because that would check all the boxes. They will give you your ROMAN NAME. Biometric ID controls your identity, your accounts, your payments, etc. and it links seamlessly to other technologies.

I'm an anti-vaccine activist (lawyer) and so I research the latest vaccine patents. I can tell you something almost no one is noticing -- the latest vaccine tattoo technology (you'll see it soon, it's only just beginning to make national news from Gates Foundation funded groups in Queensland and America) foreshadows the mark of the beast, especially because this new vaccine tattoo technology uses the compound luciferase to illuminate the subject's skin.

Reported March 6, 2022, "An electronic tattoo will soon become part of our everyday lives according to Microsoft co-founder, Bill Gates... Bill Gates said in a recent Instagram post that he believes that regardless of the fact that the technology is still in a very early stage of development, it has all the potential to replace today’s smartphones. The company behind this pioneering technology is called Chaotic Moon Studios, and it is currently focusing specifically on the medical field...Gates wants electronic tattoos to replace smartphones."  [link to euroweeklynews.com (secure)]

Gates is probably lying about his tech being in an early stage. How do I know? Because I found the latest mainstream publication, August 12, 2022, from these same people discussed above (holding the patents), who are pushing their vaccine tattoos as ready for deployment:  [link to www.sciencedirect.com (secure)]
("Skin-patch delivered subunit vaccine induces broadly neutralising antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern")

But again, I think the vax technology is not the mark of the beast. The biometric tattoo ID technology is the mark. The vax is just the poison they push with it (just as they push debt with it, and more), in order to claim everyone must get it in order to buy and sell in society. 

It probably won't get rolled out internationally until after the grid goes down (they'll tell us EMPs and/or hackers). I'd say we're about 1-3 years away from the UN's implementation of worldwide biometric ID.  But I'm just guessing. I don't think it will happen here in the US though; I think the destiny of the US is to ultimately overthrow the UN this decade. Before that happens, God is giving America natural disasters and various institutional reboots as our detox, so we eliminate this woke-left systemic infection. Once we're battle ready (Christ-reoriented as a Nation), then God will use the American military (strongest in the world) for the Revelation 19 war against the beast. Gonna be epic. I think we're going to crush its head and usher in the Millennial Reign, for Yahshua!

That's my interpretation. I'm sure it will be refined as we navigate these end-times, but I'm excited to utterly end the satanists. This generation is finding power in Christ. Good news.

Last Edited by Copperegla on 08/28/2022 08:08 PM
Matthew 7:2 & 7:12 are a prophecy specific to you, "By the judgment that you judge, you will be judged. And by the measure that you measure, you will be measured.... Whatever you want a person to do to you, do also to them, for this is the law and the prophets."
the lionhound

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08/28/2022 09:55 PM
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OP, do you have any insights on the mark of the beast scriptures in revelation?
 Quoting: daughteroftheking8


Yes, thanks for asking. The relevant verses are Revelation 13:16-18 (mark of the beast between the eyes or right hand; given to anyone, rich/poor, great/small; can't buy or sell; 666 and the number of his name).

In the original Aramaic text, the term 'mark' is ruShma, meaning tattoo or inscription. That Aramaic word ruShma is also a wordplay for rhuma Shma ("Roman name").  

So the mark of the beast is probably a biometric ID tattoo, because that would check all the boxes. They will give you your ROMAN NAME. Biometric ID controls your identity, your accounts, your payments, etc. and it links seamlessly to other technologies.

I'm an anti-vaccine activist (lawyer) and so I research the latest vaccine patents. I can tell you something almost no one is noticing -- the latest vaccine tattoo technology (you'll see it soon, it's only just beginning to make national news from Gates Foundation funded groups in Queensland and America) foreshadows the mark of the beast, especially because this new vaccine tattoo technology uses the compound luciferase to illuminate the subject's skin.

Reported March 6, 2022, "An electronic tattoo will soon become part of our everyday lives according to Microsoft co-founder, Bill Gates... Bill Gates said in a recent Instagram post that he believes that regardless of the fact that the technology is still in a very early stage of development, it has all the potential to replace today’s smartphones. The company behind this pioneering technology is called Chaotic Moon Studios, and it is currently focusing specifically on the medical field...Gates wants electronic tattoos to replace smartphones."  [link to euroweeklynews.com (secure)]

Gates is probably lying about his tech being in an early stage. How do I know? Because I found the latest mainstream publication, August 12, 2022, from these same people discussed above (holding the patents), who are pushing their vaccine tattoos as ready for deployment:  [link to www.sciencedirect.com (secure)]
("Skin-patch delivered subunit vaccine induces broadly neutralising antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern")

But again, I think the vax technology is not the mark of the beast. The biometric tattoo ID technology is the mark. The vax is just the poison they push with it (just as they push debt with it, and more), in order to claim everyone must get it in order to buy and sell in society. 

It probably won't get rolled out internationally until after the grid goes down (they'll tell us EMPs and/or hackers). I'd say we're about 1-3 years away from the UN's implementation of worldwide biometric ID.  But I'm just guessing. I don't think it will happen here in the US though; I think the destiny of the US is to ultimately overthrow the UN this decade. Before that happens, God is giving America natural disasters and various institutional reboots as our detox, so we eliminate this woke-left systemic infection. Once we're battle ready (Christ-reoriented as a Nation), then God will use the American military (strongest in the world) for the Revelation 19 war against the beast. Gonna be epic. I think we're going to crush its head and usher in the Millennial Reign, for Yahshua!

That's my interpretation. I'm sure it will be refined as we navigate these end-times, but I'm excited to utterly end the satanists. This generation is finding power in Christ. Good news.
 Quoting: Copperegla


The best news I’ve heard in a long time. Thank you for posting. I’ll start digging.
daughteroftheking8

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08/28/2022 10:16 PM
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Thank you so much for your insight! Exciting to say the least! Ok, now how about the rapture. Any insights on that one?

I hope it's good news.....lol. But if not, thats ok too, God's plan is perfect no matter what it is.

THank you OP!
daughteroftheking8
Maremare

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08/28/2022 10:25 PM

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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
Interesting white horse conquering may translate as multi layer conspiracy. Also 144,000 sealed between/middle of their eyes
 Quoting: Maremare


So glad to see you're reading it! If helpful, here is a list of the main variances. The original text better identifies what to expect during the end-times. I've bolded the ones I think are most important.

1:1 consistent grammar in Crawford suggests the first word glyna (revelations) is actually plural

1:3 the first blessing is to Yahshua exclusively. The second blessing is to those who hear and guard the word, and their blessing is not separate from Yahshua but rather is within Yahshua (because the blessing is stated as a singular word twbThna, which is an emphasized word (na suffix) to show the fullness of the blessing given to Yahshua).

1:6 Crawford uses the definite article twice lEalma dEalma to confirm that the Father remains in control of the "the age of this world"

1:16 an energetic "spirit" (ruKha) comes from the mouth of the messiah, not a sharp spear (rumKha)

2:17 Crawford identifies a person in Pergama with a solitary life, not a white pebble/accounting.

2:23 Crawford has a scribal correction in the margin about the bridal veil of Jezebel

3:7 Crawford has the spelling davyd. The first spelling dvd was used during the first temple period, and then dvyd was the progression of the name around the second temple period. And now here is Crawford we see davyd, which is suggestive of a third temple period (the messiah is the temple).

6:12 In regards to the beginning of the 6th seal, Crawford has nuhra ("light"). Obviously that is a big difference from the standard translation of the 6th seal beginning with nuda ("earthquake"). So the standard text prophesies a great earthquake, whereas Crawford prophesies a great light.

6:12 Crawford refers to the sun being like zqa ("wineskin"), whereas the standard translation has sqa ("sackcloth").

6:14 Crawford says the sky aThpShr ("was dissolved/interpreted"). By contrast, the Peshitto has aThprSh ("was parted").


7:4 Crawford spells Israel aysrayl, which preserves the wordplay with ayln in the beginning of this chapter seven.

7:15 Crawford uses the Aphel conjugation of nagn ("will cause dwelling"), which conveys a much different meaning that ngn ("will dwell") because the subject here is the one God on the throne.

9:11 Referring to the angel of the abyss, Crawford has mlaka ("angel/messenger") but the standard translation is mlka ("king"). So Crawford highlights many angels overseeing the 5th seal locusts, and one particular angel as the angel of the abyss. By contrast, the standard translation refers only to this "king/ruler angel" of the abyss.

10:1 - Regarding the angel's feet, Crawford has gmura ("burning coals"), whereas the standard translation has Eamuda ("pillars"). Crawford preserves the wordplay in the verse that refers to the Gemara and Mishnah.

10:6 Crawford has two unique aspects that change the grammar of the verse to point it correctly, as you can see in more detail in my spreadsheet.

10:9 The Peshitto has 13 additional words here to state twice that John devours the little scroll. By contrast, Crawford advises only once that John eats the scroll.

11:6 In regards to how the two witnesses cause harm to the earth, SP has udnmKhwn ("and they will strike (plural)"), whereas Crawford has udnmkkun ("and they will lay low (plural)").

11:12 Crawford has an Aphel conjugation umaTsdyn ("are caused to gaze") but SP has the normal passive umTsdyn ("and were gazing"). The meanings are quite different, because Crawford suggests that the two witnesses (filled with spirit) are directed by spirit to gaze from above into their enemies below, whereas SP suggests the enemies below are gazing into the witnesses above.

11:13 Crawford has a vav prefix that potentially changes the whole meaning of the verse, such that 7,000 men die in the earthquake and desolation, rather than 7,000 names of men in the earthquake.

11:19 In reference to the ark of the covenant in heaven, SP has the same spelling for the ark of the covenant on earth, but Crawford has a unique and plural spelling "ark of the convenants".

12:1 SP has a "crown of stars" on the woman, but Crawford has "crown of thorns".

13:3 SP has waThdmrTh ("and was amazed"), but Crawford has waThdbrTh ("and was guided").

13:12 Regarding the authority of the second creature with respect to the first creature, SP has ThEabd ("was worked"), but Crawford has dThEabry ("of being transferred"). Crawford has a more specific legal meaning, and a potential wordplay with Eabr ("H-brew"), which is quite relevant if Rome transferred its office/authority to any particular institution, such as the Catholic church.

13:14 Regarding the actions of the second beast, SP has wThtEaa ("and is seducing") whereas Crawford has wThEata ("and is forgiving"). The root in Crawford is Eata, which has some important alternate definitions as well: "cover", "blot out", "cancel". Some will be reminded of the Catholic priests forgiving sins, or the infamous Catholic power of excommunication.

14:3 SP has ala an maa ("unless if one hundred..."), whereas Crawford has umaa ("and one hundred..."). The difference is important because SP is saying that the 144,000 are nSha ("humans"), but Crawford is saying they are not nSha ("humans") because the text just advised that no nSha ("humans") are able to learn the song. Indeed, the text confirms this further by saying these 144,000 were purchased from the earth. So the 144,000 are in the kingdom of God at this point, rather than characterized as nSha ("human"). Lastly, this phrase umaa begins a new sentence in Crawford that concludes in the next verse with the word bThula ("virgins").

14:14 SP has KhrypTha ("swift/sharp"), but Crawford has KhurTha ("shining/white"). Crawford is logical because Rev 14:18 highlights only one angel that holds a "swift/sharp sickle" and he is identified in Rev 14:17-18 as we note the singular tense ldayTh mglTha KhrypTha ("to he having to him the sickle sharp").

16:8-9 SP has three phrases here that are not found in Crawford. SP concludes Rev 16:8 with the phrase bnura ("in fire") and then begins the new verse with uaThKhmmu bnynSha ("and were scorched the sons of men"). Crawford is more logical because it does not require men to burn literally "in fire" as SP requires, but rather Crawford specifies that men are burned by the great heat.

16:16 SP has an extra word here. SP has unknSh anun ("and will assemble them") in the plural form, whereas Crawford has simply unknSh ("and will assemble") in the singular form. Crawford matches the singular tense of the previous verse (Rev 16:15). By contrast, SP is plural so it requires reference back two verses to the anun ("them") in Rev 16:14. This is a very important distinction because it means that SP connects mgdu ("Megiddo" or "Armageddon") with war. By contrast, Crawford opens up the possibility that mgdu ("Megiddo") is not a place of war (or at least not exclusively a place of war), but rather is (also) the positive place where a last remnant ('he/she who watches and guards his/her garments') can assemble for the blessing of meeting "Yahshua the thief". Indeed, in H-brew mgdu means "pleasant" and "valuable", which sounds like it could be a fitting place for 'Yahshua the thief' to steal away this remnant. Moreover, the dichotomy of verses further supports the Crawford reading, as Rev 16:12-14 describe evil spirits and war, whereas Rev 16:15-16 appear to focus on the positive, namely Yahshua and the remnant.

17:12 SP has the ten horns ruling for ShEaTha ("hour" or "moment") but Crawford has ShnTha ("year" or "sleep"). This is a big difference, especially given the Roman precedent of the DECEMVIRI who ruled for one year and set law.

17:16 Regarding the relationship between the whore and the ten horns, SP states that the ten horns nsnyn ("will hate (plural)"), but Crawford has nsEarn ("will inspect (plural)"). The root verb in Crawford sEar has many alternate meanings: "visit", "look after", "heal", "care for", "work", "perform", "act".

18:9 SP states oddly regarding the merchants who watch Babylon burn waShThEalyw ("and they were elevated") but Crawford has the logical phrase waShThEayw ("and they tell tales"). Crawford comes from the root aShThEawTha ("tale/narration/speech").


19:9 Regarding those invited to the lamb's supper, SP has kThub ("write"), but Crawford has Thub ("again/repent"). Crawford is used logically here as an expression Thub tubyhun which means "they are blessed again" or "they are even more blessed".

19:9 Regarding the lamb's supper, SP has repetitively dmShThwThh ("of his marriage feast"), but Crawford has this unique insight dThShmShThh ("of his service").

19:17 SP has Thu aThknShu ("come be assembling (plural)"), but Crawford has uaThknShu ("and they were assembled"). The distinction changes the verse and quote, because SP is translated, "And he says to the birds that fly in the middle of heaven/sky, 'come, be gathering together to the supper great of Alha." By contrast, Crawford is translated, "And he says to the birds of flying, 'be midst the sky'. And they were assembled to the supper great of Alha."

19:19 SP has umlka ("and kings"), but Crawford has ulmlka ("and to kings"). The lamed here is quite significant because Crawford distinguishes between 'the creature and her armies' and 'the kings of the earth and their armies'.

20:6 SP has mnTha ("part"), but Crawford has myTha ("death"). Crawford is logical, first because it emphasizes that only those who have died can receive the blessing, and second because this word myTha concludes the sentence; and the next word bqymTha is logically the beginning of the next sentence (thereby preventing a run-on sentence).

21:11 Regarding the foundation stone of New Jerusalem, SP has yShph ("jasper") but Crawford has nShph ("its smoothness"). The letter nun is very clear in Crawford (and indeed is repeated in Rev 21:18, adding certainty) -- the root word here in Crawford has many alternate translations as well, such as "soul", "purifying", "breath", "light wind", "glide", "morning", "evening".

21:17 Regarding the wall surrounding New Jerusalem, SP has 144,000 cubits but Crawford has 140,000 cubits. The ancient cubit has several possible measurements historically (i.e., 17.5 (H-brew short), 18 inches (common), 20.4 inches (H-brew long). The wall described here in Crawford (140,000 cubits) would be approximately 44 miles (depending on the precise cubit measurement, the length from the elbow to middle finger on the mlaka ("angel/messenger") holding the measuring rod (as this verse advises that his/her hand is the standard).

21:18 Once again, and regarding this wall around New Jerusalem, SP has yShph ("jasper") but Crawford has nShph ("its smoothness").

21:19 For the first foundation stone of the wall around New Jerusalem, SP once again has yShph ("jasper") but Crawford has nShph ("its smoothness"). Smooth stones began several mighty things in the bible (such as the smooth stones taken from the Jordan river before the J-wish people entered Jerusalem after the exodus; or King David's smooth stone that defeated Goliath) - a smooth foundation is a cornerstone of traditional building. Indeed, another translation for nShph is "His smooth one", so the cornerstone here (the first stone) would be the smooth rock of Alha, yShuEa. In H-brew, yShuEa means "Yah's rock".
 Quoting: Copperegla

Interesting, thank you.
Maremare
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08/28/2022 10:31 PM
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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation, congratulations, you just effectively wasted your time!
Anonymous Coward
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08/28/2022 10:37 PM
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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
There are about 270,000 differences between known manuscripts of the so-called New Testament.

An interesting book about this is "Misquoting Jesus", written by a Christian scholar.

And yes, the original texts were most probably not in Greek. The oldest manuscripts we have date from centuries after Jesus' time.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation, congratulations, you just effectively wasted your time!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 77722247


We shouldn't opinate about things that we don't understand. Live and let live.
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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
Not only are demons cast out in the name of Jesus Christ, but my prayers have been and are answered in His name.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 42762838


Great point about prayer, especially as you've given the most relatable point.

I'm reminded of John 21, where the Messiah appears on the shoreline (reincarnates if you will) as an older man. And the one who recognizes Messiah first was the beloved disciple. Imagine it's like connecting with the heart before the traditional senses of sight and sound. I think it all works together, but the heart has a primary purpose for some reason.
 Quoting: Copperegla


Where are you getting that Jesus appeared as an older man? Is that speculation as to why they don’t recognize Him or is there something in the other translations to indicate that?

Also, I’d love to see a translation from Aramaic for Psalm 23 if you have it handy.

Thank you!
Copperegla  (OP)

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08/28/2022 11:23 PM

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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
Thanks, I will so check out your link.

I get hung up on names, and mistranslations, bugs me.

If for instance I was a human of significant importance, and my name was Aristotle, but for centuries everyone called me Johnny, I’d be pissed, it would not resonate.

J wasn’t even a letter until 15th century I believe, the Jesus thing doesn’t work in my perspective. He had a name, erroneous men changed it to suit their need.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 72610147


:) I hear you, but you know your heart just softens right up when you hear a child pray to Jesus, as the prayer comes from the heart

Oh, I've got something you may like to try -- you can pronounce Yahweh's name in breath. It's really cool, like this:

breathe in smiling (eee) breathe out with relief (haa) breathe in with wonder (ooo) breathe out with understanding (haa)

You can even do this while you run in nature. See how energized you feel. Power in the name.
Matthew 7:2 & 7:12 are a prophecy specific to you, "By the judgment that you judge, you will be judged. And by the measure that you measure, you will be measured.... Whatever you want a person to do to you, do also to them, for this is the law and the prophets."
Copperegla  (OP)

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08/28/2022 11:43 PM

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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
I'm reminded of John 21, where the Messiah appears on the shoreline (reincarnates if you will) as an older man. And the one who recognizes Messiah first was the beloved disciple. Imagine it's like connecting with the heart before the traditional senses of sight and sound. I think it all works together, but the heart has a primary purpose for some reason.
 Quoting: Copperegla


Where are you getting that Jesus appeared as an older man? Is that speculation as to why they don’t recognize Him or is there something in the other translations to indicate that?

Also, I’d love to see a translation from Aramaic for Psalm 23 if you have it handy.

Thank you!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 80091218


Correct, that's my informed speculation/logic that Messiah appeared older, because:

1. Delay. The apostles heard the Messiah's words clearly and saw him directly but they didn't recognize him. Instead, they took time to cast their nets. That's a clue he looked different somehow.

2. Heart. It was only the beloved disciple (known for his heart) who recognized Messiah first. Again, this suggests visual and auditory cues were not enough to recognize Messiah.

3. Little children and an elder. Messiah calls the apostles 'little children' (tlya). Compare John 13:33 'my sons' (bny). If the Messiah on the shoreline (who they didn't recognize yet) looked the same age or younger as the apostles, and he called them 'little children', presumably they would have been offended, laughed, or reacted in some way to the comment. Instead, they obeyed him exactly like you would obey an elder in 1st Century Israel.

I have the Aramaic version of Psalm 23 in my library. It's on paper though, not sure how to get that to you. If you have a question about it, I'm happy to answer.

Last Edited by Copperegla on 08/28/2022 11:46 PM
Matthew 7:2 & 7:12 are a prophecy specific to you, "By the judgment that you judge, you will be judged. And by the measure that you measure, you will be measured.... Whatever you want a person to do to you, do also to them, for this is the law and the prophets."
ThirstyMarlin!

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08/28/2022 11:44 PM
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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
I'm an ancient language scholar of Aramaic and H-brew. The University of Manchester (Special Collections Department) gave me access to the oldest known copy on earth of the Book of Revelation in the 1st century language of the messiah Yahshua (Jesus).



A great example, compare these two translations of Mark 10:25:

-- Greek (foreign language): "It is easier for a camel through the eye of the needle to enter, than for a rich man to enter into the reign of God."

-- Aramaic (native language): "It is easier for a rope to enter into the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.”

The word gmla in Jesus' language had dual meanings: 'camel' and 'rope'. So it's obvious that a Greek translator made a mistake saying 'camel', because it makes no sense for someone trying to push a camel through a sewing needle. Of course the original Aramaic makes perfect sense as a metaphor -- trying to fit a rope through a sewing needle.

-- I guess they would say if you're going to a baseball game today at Yankee Stadium, you must still be speaking Greek, never mind the word "stadium" is a word used across different languages and cultures.

The more you know.
 Quoting: Copperegla


Camel to enter the eye of a needle is referring to gates that were entered outside the main gates which were closed at night in Jerusalem.

In order for the camel to enter 'the eye of the needle' entrance, he had to be unpacked and stoop.

That's the meaning here. A rope is IMPOSSIBLE to put through the eye of a needle, it isn't just hard to do.

The camel is correct in that it was difficult, but not impossible.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 82880390


This is the answer as I was taught in Sunday School.

My teacher also explained:

This represents that a man, like a camel, is heavily weighted with
worldly goods.

To enter the Kingdom, we must enter humbly (like the camel kneeling).
Unpack our "stuff".
Move forward unloaded...and we can reload again!
Oh yes we can!

You see, Jesus was not telling everyone to give away
everything they own, to follow him.
No,sorry...but you'll miss these insights if you believe
the University professors who teach Biblical non-sense.

What?
You think 2000 of years of scholarship
and we just figured out this translation bussiness?
Because we was just dumb back than I gusse.

-AND- What's up with the "Roots" movement?

Like...Jesus does not like his name in Greek?
He wants YOU to call him by his Aramaic name?

I don't get it.
What about John...do we still call him John?
Paul?
I'm sure David is fine, no need to re-translate that.
Mary?

"Luke...use the Force Luke."
Ragnor-IZB4B
"And you too Thomas!
Quit doubting...have faith."
Marlin!
mondali2

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08/29/2022 12:57 AM
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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
revelation, the anointing of St John is an inward journey of awakening.

example the 7 churches are the 7 chakras

to him that overcometh even as I overcame. is repeated 6 or 7 times in revelation.

Revelation is about what we all must go through to reunite with spirit.

Restored new testament by James Morgan Price. available in pdf form on line, enjoy

vol 2 is about revelations.
mondali2
Sister of THE Revolution

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08/29/2022 01:05 AM

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Re: If you're interpreting the Book of Revelation today, consider this original text source
Ops quote: The bottom line is that you don't need to speak or know ancient languages for your salvation in Christ. Nor does any Christian need to fight over this, when we obviously have greater threats in this world.

But all the same, there is tons of evidence for the original spoken language to also be the original written language. And evidence adds up. But if the Father wanted Aramaic primacy to be self-evident anywhere, it would be. For example, the first words of Revelation would be "this book was originally written in Aramaic by Yahshua's apostle John". And for that matter, the Torah would be written in unblemished H-brew right in the big blue sky for all to obey. But no, that's not our world. Our world is one of perspective and lost history because it is what helps us grow, and what we deserve.

Peace.



yoda

Last Edited by Sister of THE Revolution on 08/29/2022 01:06 AM





GLP