Crypto bottoms when we have our next "world event" similar to covid pandemic | |
nemo_solus
User ID: 78144728 Luxembourg 01/11/2023 08:06 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | nemo just fyi. bought some s-coins again. thinking we are repeating the moment before march 2020 covid crash right now. as in, not repeating the 2018 bottom... repeating the 2020 bottom. wont be shorting until mid/late february at the earliest. not sure on a bitcoin topping price but would like to see 22/23k for bitcoin mid february. Quoting: Mr Cheese Well, Crypto is always exciting (except when it isn't - LoL) - we'll see what happens next! Still going with the idea that this is an exit pump. Not sure how big it will be, but it certainly could go on for a week or three more. Haven't changed the strategy, still in the same trade position, but watching to see if there is any change in the cash positioning, reaction of BTC to the overhead zone or major fundamental news. Primarily, I'll be watching what the cash does as my guide. Last Edited by nemo_solus on 01/11/2023 08:21 AM |
nemo_solus
User ID: 78144728 Luxembourg 01/11/2023 08:13 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | wont go lower than $13'000, statistical probability suggests price will start a bull run near this price. wont go to the depths your suggesting! lol Quoting: Anonymous Coward 80931127 Thanks for the input! That is certainly a possibility - we were discussing this issue (likely areas for a bottom) earlier in the thread, not sure if you had a chance to read through that though. Not sure what statistical basis you are considering (but would appreciate you explaining it!) but the way I was considering the 13-12k$ region was based on a volume profile: https://imgur.com/a/zrbN93M As you can see, there is a heavy zone of volume starting at those levels and would be a lot of resistance to go through in order to reach lower prices. All things are possible, the question is more one of what is what is most probable over the time frame considered. :) Last Edited by nemo_solus on 01/11/2023 08:15 AM |
nemo_solus
User ID: 78144728 Luxembourg 01/11/2023 10:01 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Howdy Cheese! Things are looking nice and green today, hopefully your trades are going well too! https://imgur.com/a/kI2KSQ4 Looks like BTC has made a decision to test the upper resistance zone. Closed the day testing the MA100 (blue) and is working towards the MA200 (green) next on the daily chart. https://imgur.com/a/wS566PA Cash has really picked up moving into the market since yesterday, now at approximately 62% of the way to the expected target of the lower support line. Still in the same long trades, trailing stops as before. Still considering this an exit pump until proven otherwise. I'm not sure how long the run up will last and of the mind that although there may have been some semi-OK news on the FTX front today, the full damage to the market is still there and just waiting to be recognized. Last Edited by nemo_solus on 01/11/2023 10:09 PM |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 16242016 United States 01/11/2023 10:11 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | bitcoin still under the 200 day moving average at 19,500$ so honestly this shouldn't be exciting anyone just yet. Under 19,500$ means exactly nothing is happening. Daily ichimoku resistance cloud is at 18,500$. So two resistances it has yet to break. Meh. i did sell my coins after a tiny profit. just going to wait for a few days to gain clarity. not exactly interested in anything going up or down right now. too volatile for my tastes. i'm happy buying later at higher prices if it does go up. still have not seen a single bullish harmonic pattern on any crypto and i look at dozens of them. Not one... single... bullish harmonic. If this really was the bottom? There would be a few of them. Just saying. No bullish harmonics makes me highly suspicious that there is more downside action coming. |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 16242016 United States 01/11/2023 10:17 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | [imgur] [link to imgur.com (secure)] here's an example of why i'm not excited for a bullrun, just by looking at ethereum. ethereum hasn't even left that very simple downsloping channel yet. eth currently at 1402. top of that channel is like 1540$-1560$ ish. consider me bored of crypto right now. assets are in the middle of a range and they can go either way. not the moment to enter a trade so no interest for me at all. i'll be interested after a week or so maybe. |
nemo_solus
User ID: 78144728 Luxembourg 01/11/2023 10:44 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | bitcoin still under the 200 day moving average at 19,500$ so honestly this shouldn't be exciting anyone just yet. Under 19,500$ means exactly nothing is happening. Daily ichimoku resistance cloud is at 18,500$. So two resistances it has yet to break. Meh. Quoting: Mr Cheese i did sell my coins after a tiny profit. just going to wait for a few days to gain clarity. not exactly interested in anything going up or down right now. too volatile for my tastes. i'm happy buying later at higher prices if it does go up. still have not seen a single bullish harmonic pattern on any crypto and i look at dozens of them. Not one... single... bullish harmonic. If this really was the bottom? There would be a few of them. Just saying. No bullish harmonics makes me highly suspicious that there is more downside action coming. No doubt that we're not likely in any sort of major bullish trend. The DMA 200 zone will be a big test, for sure and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see another bottom form. As before, keeping an eye on the cash flow to try and spot a reversal, but otherwise just letting the trade plan run as intended. We'll see what happens! |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 16242016 United States 01/12/2023 12:29 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Nemo, i don't know how much you get into harmonic patterns but they truly are the only time i get hyper confident an asset will go up or down. Not only the harmonic pattern itself but you really want to see the reversal location at a major price point to give it more believability. Harmonics are usually shaped like the letter M or the letter W (there are special ones that are different but we wont get into that today) the gartley the cypher those are my two favorites. Remember last year when bitcoin was at 48.2k and I said it was making the biggest bearish gartley harmonic i've ever seen and i said it would drop to at least 20-24k? Moments like that are extremely rare. Okay all that being said. I've found a potential bearish gartley harmonic for tron. Tron sucks. We all know that. But this is a real pattern and the reversal location is at a major price point from before the bullrun. I think this is the cue when everything else will be topping out. That's why this is important. Remember, all coins go up together and all go down together. Tron is currently at 5.65 cents. The harmonic wants tron to go up to 6.11 cents and then reject. I'll show you what i'm talking about with the pictures now. BTW, tron is almost definitely what i will be shorting for the end of this bear market. This just looks too beautiful. ~~~ ~~~ picture 1 [imgur] [link to imgur.com (secure)] this is the potential bearish gartley harmonic i really like the small yellow arrow on the left being support before the asset just dropped in this first picture. the white arrow is the 786 of the gartley, the target where i will look to short. ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ picture 2 [imgur] [link to imgur.com (secure)] look on this daily line chart before the bullrun topped. that big arrow on the left? that's a very very important price point... and it's exactly at the 786 of this potential bearish gartley. In my opinion, this is when everything collapses again. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 84158295 United States 01/12/2023 02:23 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | bitcoin still under the 200 day moving average at 19,500$ so honestly this shouldn't be exciting anyone just yet. Under 19,500$ means exactly nothing is happening. Daily ichimoku resistance cloud is at 18,500$. So two resistances it has yet to break. Meh. Quoting: Mr Cheese i did sell my coins after a tiny profit. just going to wait for a few days to gain clarity. not exactly interested in anything going up or down right now. too volatile for my tastes. i'm happy buying later at higher prices if it does go up. still have not seen a single bullish harmonic pattern on any crypto and i look at dozens of them. Not one... single... bullish harmonic. If this really was the bottom? There would be a few of them. Just saying. No bullish harmonics makes me highly suspicious that there is more downside action coming. No doubt that we're not likely in any sort of major bullish trend. The DMA 200 zone will be a big test, for sure and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see another bottom form. As before, keeping an eye on the cash flow to try and spot a reversal, but otherwise just letting the trade plan run as intended. We'll see what happens! Cheese when you said it will crash on the 13th did you mean that's when it will go up? |
nemo_solus
User ID: 78144728 Luxembourg 01/12/2023 11:12 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Nemo, i don't know how much you get into harmonic patterns but they truly are the only time i get hyper confident an asset will go up or down. Not only the harmonic pattern itself but you really want to see the reversal location at a major price point to give it more believability. Quoting: Mr Cheese Hi Cheese, As always, thanks for the education and analysis. I've tried using harmonics but just couldn't really ever grok them enough to feel comfortable with the results, but maybe some day.... Tron is probably going to be the failure point of the whole USDT scheme, so having a specific level to watch for is a very useful bit of information. Getting the timing of the market correct is very difficult to do, so I don't know when the bear will return, but I am positive it won't be gone for long as there are too many fundamental reasons. But for now, I am happy to stay in the long trade for however much time it plays out for. https://imgur.com/a/7CUQIcE Cash is still moving out of Stablecoins, although not as fast today as yesterday. A reversal here is my signal that it's time to exit long. https://imgur.com/a/9O9zvaD BTC moved up nicely today, closing at the upper limits of the resistance zone. How it interacts with the DMA 200 and prior support over the next day or so will be an indication of how strong this trend up might be. As mentioned earlier, I've moved the majority of my capital off exchange and into self custody as it a very real possibility of major failures everywhere. But the small amount I'm risking in this trade I'll probably risk again going short when this run up ends. I'll have to look at shorting Tron, although it could well end up being a Pyrrhic victory. Last Edited by nemo_solus on 01/12/2023 11:15 PM |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 16242016 United States 01/12/2023 11:18 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | bitcoin still under the 200 day moving average at 19,500$ so honestly this shouldn't be exciting anyone just yet. Under 19,500$ means exactly nothing is happening. Daily ichimoku resistance cloud is at 18,500$. So two resistances it has yet to break. Meh. Quoting: Mr Cheese i did sell my coins after a tiny profit. just going to wait for a few days to gain clarity. not exactly interested in anything going up or down right now. too volatile for my tastes. i'm happy buying later at higher prices if it does go up. still have not seen a single bullish harmonic pattern on any crypto and i look at dozens of them. Not one... single... bullish harmonic. If this really was the bottom? There would be a few of them. Just saying. No bullish harmonics makes me highly suspicious that there is more downside action coming. No doubt that we're not likely in any sort of major bullish trend. The DMA 200 zone will be a big test, for sure and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see another bottom form. As before, keeping an eye on the cash flow to try and spot a reversal, but otherwise just letting the trade plan run as intended. We'll see what happens! Cheese when you said it will crash on the 13th did you mean that's when it will go up? was an old theory that has since proven wasn't going to happen. i think we're going to go up over the coming week(s) but not a lot. still expect a major crash to happen some time over the next several months. not sure right now when the crash will happen but i feel like i will know when it's starting. markets have not made bullish harmonic patterns yet so i'm not convinced this is the longterm bottom. i think we're repeating the 2001 financial crisis and i expect further financial carnage to happen... eventually. honestly markets are probably not safe to buy until 2024. if we have a bullish impuse in 2023 i think it will be short-lived. i will definitely make lots of noise on the forum when i feel markets are bottoming. i'll make a new thread about it. things just dont look good to me now. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 85057665 01/12/2023 11:20 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 16242016 United States 01/12/2023 11:30 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Tron is probably going to be the failure point of the whole USDT scheme, so having a specific level to watch for is a very useful bit of information. Quoting: nemo_solus huh? i dont understand this. why's tron important? failure point? i'm intrigued BTC moved up nicely today, closing at the upper limits of the resistance zone. How it interacts with the DMA 200 and prior support over the next day or so will be an indication of how strong this trend up might be. Quoting: nemo_solus bitcoin has several bearish harmonics it could make. it actually has 3 different potential bearish harmonics it could make as it has made the X-A-B-C of all 3 of these so far (truly unique moment right now. i've never seen 3 potential harmonics just one impulse in the same direction from completion). The D wave is the rejection wave. Depending how high bitcoin goes will determine which bearish harmonic it is. -a bearish bat harmonic topping at 20,800$ (would be perfect to get all the moonboys hyped about a bullrun starting if it goes over 20k) -a bigger harmonic, the bearish cypher harmonic at 23k -a 2nd even bigger bearish cypher harmonic at 28.8k ~~ ~~ i believe bitcoin probably will reject at one of these three spots. I said this a few weeks ago... but if bitcoin goes to 28.8k and rejects there? I'm giving serious consideration that bitcoin may bottom at 2400$ area. honestly i think the 28.8k bearish cypher rejection makes the most sense... i'm just not going to sit here and tell you that i think it's actually going to happen. i'll believe it when i see it, basically. |
nemo_solus
User ID: 78144728 Luxembourg 01/13/2023 02:06 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Tron is probably going to be the failure point of the whole USDT scheme, so having a specific level to watch for is a very useful bit of information. Quoting: nemo_solus huh? i dont understand this. why's tron important? failure point? i'm intrigued Hi Cheese, I apologize in advance as I'm not sure I can provide an entirely adequate full explanation here as I'm still trying to come to terms with the information, the potential scope of it all and what level of trust to place on the reporting and speculation. That being said, below are some sources you should read through. When reading these, it is important to remember the dates of these articles and what has come to happen in the months since: [link to www.singlelunch.com (secure)] [link to protos.com (secure)] https://twitter.com/_/status/1613620678716186625 https://twitter.com/_/status/1611367961599655937 https://twitter.com/_/status/1611434453167144960 Also worth taking some time to peruse the entire feeds of these folks too. I'm not a huge fan on this method of sharing thoughts as it isn't coherent and is difficult to follow, but it is an absolutely crazy and deep rabbit hole to fall into. It is also why I have moved back to fiat, off exchange and out of crypto almost entirely. If what is being alleged here is even partially true, it is catastrophic enough that you can't even short it as nobody will survive to be able to settle the trade. Last Edited by nemo_solus on 01/13/2023 02:16 AM |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 84983888 France 01/13/2023 02:22 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | exit pump = sucker rally. [link to broward.ghost.io (secure)] it's too easy for a big player to generate the TA pattern you're looking for and sucker you in. price needs to reach $30k to stabilize miners and $60k by early 2024. that's just to keep miner erosion at breakeven. nobody will keep mining longterm at zero profit. |
nemo_solus
User ID: 78144728 Luxembourg 01/13/2023 02:35 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Yes, that's the consensus here so far, you certainly don't want to be the bag holder when the music stops. Last Edited by nemo_solus on 01/13/2023 02:48 AM |
nemo_solus
User ID: 78144728 Luxembourg 01/13/2023 02:36 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 16242016 United States 01/13/2023 11:05 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | bitcoin looks more bullish than it's looked in 3+ year right now on the 8 hour/12 hour charts. indicators look phenomenally bullish(at least for right now). pretty sure it's about to blast above the 200day moving average in the next week. no clue what's going to happen. i am in a few low market cap s-coins expecting a small pump but i'm not hopeful in the slightest that it is a long term bottom. maybe i'm wrong. i'll sell my garbage coins after a healthy pump and wait for the next moment. i still think we're repeating the 2001 financial crisis. i don't think this is the longterm bottom. |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 16242016 United States 01/13/2023 11:54 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | nemo, despite being tentatively bullish in the short term... i will keep repeating that, at best case, i think this is a repeat of the 2001 financial crisis. worst case? it could be a legit depression. but i am leaning towards 2001 financial crisis. if this is true then we will have 2 more major crashes across all assets. (maybe 3 crashes? but at least 2 more) according to the s&p500... first crash should be march 2023. final crash should be march 2024. according to the DXY... first crash should be 9/11/2023 second crash should be 9/11/2024 just not sure on the timing yet. i do think the big crashes will be separated by a full year though. [imgur] [link to imgur.com (secure)] this is the dxy on the weekly line chart with the ichimoku cloud enabled. yellow arrow on the right is where the dxy is right now. yellow arrow on the left is where the dxy was before the 2001 financial crisis when it looked exactly how it looks right this second. white arrow on the left was 9/11/2001 twin towers attack. this is why i think we are about to repeat the 9/11/2001 stock market crash. and if we repeat the 9/11 stock market crash... i am a conspiracy theorist. this tells me we are going to repeat a world event similar in scale to 9/11. hope i'm wrong about that but i expect something major to happen when the dxy makes that 9/11 crash repeat. and it is happening. maybe covid. maybe war. who the fuck knows. bad shit is coming. (you all know that though) |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 16242016 United States 01/13/2023 08:32 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Here's what i'm thinking, Nemo. (i was waiting to say this idea until bitcoin got over the 200 day moving average which it just did an hour ago) I'm using ethereum on this one. I'm tentatively bullish for the next 2 1/2 months for all crypto. Bitcoin is insanely bullish right now. The rest of coins should follow suit. I'm comparing the 3 colored lines on the right to the corresponding 3 colored lines on the left. I believe we are going to remain bullish for a few months. Look how similar those 3 areas look to each other. Anyways, i'm thinking this lasts until april 1st and then we'll have a year long crypto rug pull again. Would love to see 2300/2400$ ethereum as a top in end of march. We never got that over the last few months and I did think it should have been the top the whole time and was annoyed it never happened... well... if you use fib brackets to compare the left to the right (on the candle chart, not the line chart), it does project to 2300/2400 if this market repeats and does the same fib extension. So that's my plan right now on where/when i plan on shorting this into the dirt. IMO, after April 1st, this gets unbelievably nasty. For a year+. For everything. IMO, end of march 2023 is your last chance to get out of crypto before it dirt naps. [imgur] [link to imgur.com (secure)] |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 84184154 United States 01/13/2023 08:37 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Here's what i'm thinking, Nemo. Quoting: Mr Cheese (i was waiting to say this idea until bitcoin got over the 200 day moving average which it just did an hour ago) I'm using ethereum on this one. I'm tentatively bullish for the next 2 1/2 months for all crypto. Bitcoin is insanely bullish right now. The rest of coins should follow suit. I'm comparing the 3 colored lines on the right to the corresponding 3 colored lines on the left. I believe we are going to remain bullish for a few months. Look how similar those 3 areas look to each other. Anyways, i'm thinking this lasts until april 1st and then we'll have a year long crypto rug pull again. Would love to see 2300/2400$ ethereum as a top in end of march. We never got that over the last few months and I did think it should have been the top the whole time and was annoyed it never happened... well... if you use fib brackets to compare the left to the right (on the candle chart, not the line chart), it does project to 2300/2400 if this market repeats and does the same fib extension. So that's my plan right now on where/when i plan on shorting this into the dirt. IMO, after April 1st, this gets unbelievably nasty. For a year+. For everything. IMO, end of march 2023 is your last chance to get out of crypto before it dirt naps. [imgur] [link to imgur.com (secure)] Nice so you wait for the number to go up and then you become bullish. |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 16242016 United States 01/13/2023 08:38 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 16242016 United States 01/13/2023 08:40 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Nice so you wait for the number to go up and then you become bullish. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84184154 i waited for bitcoin to get over the 200 day moving average because being beneath it meant it was not bullish. also this is not a bullrun. this is temporary. markets are going to get absolutely murdered from april 2023 to april 2024. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 85108442 Indonesia 01/13/2023 08:41 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | here is where your cash is coming from... Thread: We are in big trouble folks! huge treasury liquidation just as Biden admin wants to ditch debt ceiling. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 84204326 United States 01/13/2023 08:54 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Nice so you wait for the number to go up and then you become bullish. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84184154 i waited for bitcoin to get over the 200 day moving average because being beneath it meant it was not bullish. also this is not a bullrun. this is temporary. markets are going to get absolutely murdered from april 2023 to april 2024. A whole year huh... |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 16242016 United States 01/13/2023 08:56 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Nice so you wait for the number to go up and then you become bullish. Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84184154 i waited for bitcoin to get over the 200 day moving average because being beneath it meant it was not bullish. also this is not a bullrun. this is temporary. markets are going to get absolutely murdered from april 2023 to april 2024. A whole year huh... we're repeating the 2001 financial crisis, in my opinion. |
zzbudzz
User ID: 85108499 United States 01/13/2023 09:31 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Banned often |
nemo_solus
User ID: 78144728 Luxembourg 01/13/2023 11:17 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | here is where your cash is coming from... Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85108442 Thread: We are in big trouble folks! huge treasury liquidation just as Biden admin wants to ditch debt ceiling. Can't comment on direct USG involvement, but I'll say that Tether is known to hold a lot of Treasuries. https://twitter.com/_/status/1614067634911473668 https://twitter.com/_/status/1614066181635284994 https://twitter.com/_/status/1614066178342768640 |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 16242016 United States 01/13/2023 11:20 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | i've been around long enough to say that they always try to scare you from being in tether when a crash is coming. i think the tether stuff is just nonsense. they always give bad advice in the news. always out to mislead you. remember, these are the people who published the matt damon article calling you an idiot for not buying bitcoin at 68k. |
Anonymous Coward (OP) User ID: 16242016 United States 01/13/2023 11:22 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | that being said, i am expecting higher prices for a while. i'll definitely start going nuts when i think it will go down again... but it seems like it will go up for the foreseeable future. again, bitcoin on the 12 hour chart is the most bullish it has been in 4 years right now. that can't be ignored. it's going to take a long time for this to cool down. months, possibly. ~~~~~ ~~~~~ real bullrun won't start until 2024/2025 at the absolute earliest. |
nemo_solus
User ID: 78144728 Luxembourg 01/13/2023 11:37 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Here's what i'm thinking, Nemo. Quoting: Mr Cheese (i was waiting to say this idea until bitcoin got over the 200 day moving average which it just did an hour ago) I'm using ethereum on this one. I'm tentatively bullish for the next 2 1/2 months for all crypto. Bitcoin is insanely bullish right now. The rest of coins should follow suit. I'm comparing the 3 colored lines on the right to the corresponding 3 colored lines on the left. I believe we are going to remain bullish for a few months. Look how similar those 3 areas look to each other. Anyways, i'm thinking this lasts until april 1st and then we'll have a year long crypto rug pull again. Would love to see 2300/2400$ ethereum as a top in end of march. We never got that over the last few months and I did think it should have been the top the whole time and was annoyed it never happened... well... if you use fib brackets to compare the left to the right (on the candle chart, not the line chart), it does project to 2300/2400 if this market repeats and does the same fib extension. So that's my plan right now on where/when i plan on shorting this into the dirt. IMO, after April 1st, this gets unbelievably nasty. For a year+. For everything. IMO, end of march 2023 is your last chance to get out of crypto before it dirt naps. I'm still following the trade plan, just waiting to see how far this all goes. I'm just in some Alts and ETH as well, as I don't have much capital at risk, I'm looking for the greatest gains and using leverage. https://imgur.com/a/2zozn0v Cash flow really picked up the pace today, we're just about at the projected target support trend line already. Not sure what will happen next but the Cash flow will continue to be my guide for reversal or trend continuation decision making. https://imgur.com/a/3RlEihc BTC really did decisively pierce the DMA 200 and close well above it. Wouldn't surprise me to see some back testing of it as a support, but by late Sunday evening we should have a sense of where things might trend next. If we see folks FOMOing into the market, we could see a lot more green days, there is plenty of Cash left sitting in Stablecoins to fuel the rocket for a bit. Also, was very curious to know if you had read any of the above sources and had any thoughts on the matters? As I mentioned, it has me very concerned, so much so that aside from this small trade, I am literally completely exited out of the market (into fiat and off exchange in all ways). |