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Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)

 
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 79986956
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11/23/2022 03:21 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
Every economy has an ultimate implied owner The economy itself has an implied owner. In the common modern economy, the owner is the one that creates and manages the NUMBERS. The bond numbers, the certificate numbers, the account numbers, the person (social) numbers, etc. That entity is the owner, and that entity dictates the rules.

In an alternate economy, the entity that mints the currency, or possibly manages the currency is the owner. At the base level, the one that brings the rain, causes the wheat to grow, feeds the cows, etc is the owner.

When building an alternate economy it is very important to:

a) Not depend on any oracle that is dictated by another economy. An example would be the market value of silver.
b) Remember that every economy has an implied owner. Take time to identify at every level / point who the implied owner is. Make it as decentralized as possible.

<continues...>
Anonymous Coward
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11/23/2022 03:21 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
Every economy has an ultimate implied owner The economy itself has an implied owner. In the common modern economy, the owner is the one that creates and manages the NUMBERS. The bond numbers, the certificate numbers, the account numbers, the person (social) numbers, etc. That entity is the owner, and that entity dictates the rules.

In an alternate economy, the entity that mints the currency, or possibly manages the currency is the owner. At the base level, the one that brings the rain, causes the wheat to grow, feeds the cows, etc is the owner.

When building an alternate economy it is very important to:

a) Not depend on any oracle that is dictated by another economy. An example would be the market value of silver.
b) Remember that every economy has an implied owner. Take time to identify at every level / point who the implied owner is. Make it as decentralized as possible.

<continues...>
Anonymous Coward
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11/23/2022 03:22 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
I think a lot of the problems would be alleviated if we didn't allow homes to be speculative assets.

Renting/Landlords shouldn't exist.

Homes should be HOMES. Shelter.

But I'm just a dreamer...
 Quoting: BLACK GHOST


Only rentals should those two to four story flat top multi family homes where the landlord is ON THE PREMISES. They exist.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84806378


So if someone wants to rent out a single family home, in your little dictatorship, you wouldn’t allow them to- why?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 81447247


Because it ruins the neighborhood and it becomes a flophouse for lowlifes. And they don’t pay taxes when their kids use the township school system, and everyone else’s taxes have to be raised.
Anonymous Coward
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11/23/2022 03:26 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
Ownership dictates rules Whatever entity owns an economy dictates the rules of the economy. Be very wary of any economy that uses a set of rules dictated by a human or some sort of arbitrary power structure.

The law of Moses (not at all reflected in modern or ancient j daism or kabalah or anything like that) presented an economy that had no central power structure. It had teachers and judges (who arose from every family equally), but no central managing or governing body.

There are many rule based economies that one can look at over time.

<continues...>
Anonymous Coward
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11/23/2022 03:26 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
Ownership abstracts There will always be richer and poorer people. The richer will always have poorer people working for them. The employers will have their own rules. Never, as an employee, allow the employer to become a new economy for your.

Only, always, even at risk of life and limb, insist on an independent and rule based economy.

<continues...>
Anonymous Coward
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11/23/2022 03:27 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
Independent economies are far more robust Every time a manager or overseer or politician is introduced to an economic system, that system becomes more sluggish. Zero government systems are ideal. There will always be the overhead of teaching and adjudication (determining who owes who what). But there should never be a place in any economic system for a person that "oversees" anything for the "good" of anyone. Every human should be aware of his own business. When there is a problem, it should be taken to the most experienced (oldest) in the community for determination of equity. Usually the oldest are the least fit for regular work, and the most experienced in determining equity.

Because independent economies are more robust, the are feared and attacked by less robust, more religious (human controlled) economies.

<continues...>
Anonymous Coward
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11/23/2022 03:27 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
Independent economies must prepare for survival in antagonistic circumstances There are several approaches for alternate economies. a) Locate in a defensible / unattackable location. Africa has been amazingly difficult to colonize because it is difficult to approach / attack. b) Do not present as a single entity, but appear like a multitude of more or less independent oddballs, no one of which is worth attacking. Try attacking cicadas. c) If you are alone and have no group, live off the waste of the system you live near. No one cares about the garbage collectors. d) Work the extremes. Almost all major economies require all-the-time services. If an economy is based on harvesting the extremes, it is very difficult to attack in the usual ways. This is a storage based economy. Solar electricity is an example: harvest in the day, use at night. Power outages do not effect. Decentralized.

The US is based on the idea that might makes right. This is sortof true, and works out in the typical case, but in the cases outlined above, might is not the key factor. Cleverness is.

<continues...>
Anonymous Coward
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11/23/2022 03:28 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
There is always excess, use the excess This is perhaps the most difficult for Americans to believe. There is always excess, even in the poorest situations. Always USE the excess. Among 20 families there is always enough money to build another nice house, and buy another good piece of land. DO IT. Saving that excess is waste. Using the excess is always profitable. Issue internal notes of debt, and do not charge interest. Allow the notes to be trade-able. Guess what? You now have your own currency.

It is best to make the notes expire… or the notes themselves will become hoarded. Defeats the purpose. The law of Moses gave every note a maximum lifespan of 50 years. Add the idea that children (under 20) cannot hold a note and you have an extreme case of 70 years.
Anonymous Coward
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11/23/2022 03:28 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
Create implied insurance Everyone that has an income of any kind should save about 3% in a stash that is solely for the purpose of giving to the poor. Not just any poor bastard, but specifically to the poor within the exclusive economy. “Poor” means someone that had an accident and broke and arm and needs care. “Poor” means a family that had a house burn down. “Poor” means a harvest that flooded out and needs a wall built to make the field safe from flooding. “Poor” means a young family that is highly skilled, but needs a facility to execute said skill.

There will always be some sort of network in any economy. The closest people to the “poor” person should empty their insurance first, then the farther away in the network, etc. Generally this will be family first, friends later, etc.

<The End>
Larry D. Croc

User ID: 70736097
United States
11/23/2022 03:34 PM

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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
I think a lot of the problems would be alleviated if we didn't allow homes to be speculative assets.

Renting/Landlords shouldn't exist.

Homes should be HOMES. Shelter.

But I'm just a dreamer...
 Quoting: BLACK GHOST


Only rentals should those two to four story flat top multi family homes where the landlord is ON THE PREMISES. They exist.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84806378


So if someone wants to rent out a single family home, in your little dictatorship, you wouldn’t allow them to- why?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 81447247


Because it ruins the neighborhood and it becomes a flophouse for lowlifes. And they don’t pay taxes when their kids use the township school system, and everyone else’s taxes have to be raised.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84806378



That's not true. The property owner continues to pay the property taxes which are usually figured into the rent paid.

If the tenant doesn't pay the rent? Makes no difference, the property owner is still on the hook.

Whatever gave you the idea that "they don't pay the taxes when their kids use the township school system"? Keep in mind that people who are retired or those that have no kids are also paying for the local school system.
"Socialism only works in two places: Heaven where they don't need it and hell, where they already have it." Ronald Reagan

The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so." Ronald Reagan
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 75192448
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11/23/2022 06:14 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
If sincerely seeking critique of usury and fractional reserve banking, a suggestion:

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 81559706
United States
11/23/2022 06:19 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
I think a lot of the problems would be alleviated if we didn't allow homes to be speculative assets.

Renting/Landlords shouldn't exist.

Homes should be HOMES. Shelter.

But I'm just a dreamer...
 Quoting: BLACK GHOST


Only rentals should those two to four story flat top multi family homes where the landlord is ON THE PREMISES. They exist.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84806378


So if someone wants to rent out a single family home, in your little dictatorship, you wouldn’t allow them to- why?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 81447247


Because it ruins the neighborhood and it becomes a flophouse for lowlifes. And they don’t pay taxes when their kids use the township school system, and everyone else’s taxes have to be raised.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84806378


Maybe in some areas but not every sfr rental is a “flop house”

Also, the landlords are paying taxes so that’s a moot point.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 81559706
United States
11/23/2022 06:20 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
If sincerely seeking critique of usury and fractional reserve banking, a suggestion:


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75192448


The thumbnail looks like highly biased propaganda
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 84198874
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11/23/2022 06:41 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
If sincerely seeking critique of usury and fractional reserve banking, a suggestion:


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75192448


Anthony Migchels; I recognized his voice. We have been in intermittent communication for several years.

[link to (secure)] realcurrencies. wordpress.com/ (remove spaces)
Anonymous Coward
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11/23/2022 06:44 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
"Privatize profits; socialize losses" is the mantra of the bankers. "Bail out the banks; send the bill to the taxpayers" is the advocated solution.
Anonymous Coward
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11/23/2022 06:53 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
If sincerely seeking critique of usury and fractional reserve banking, a suggestion:


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75192448


The thumbnail looks like highly biased propaganda
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 81559706


That's as good as any reason to ignore it.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 84198874
United States
11/23/2022 06:55 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
Economics for the literacy challenged from Paul Grignon of British Columbia. Cartoon series demonstrate the message:

[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

How to create producer credits:

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 84198874
United States
11/23/2022 07:58 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
Congratulations to the poster from the UK.

As for the nay-nay bird - if you find yourself locked into a mental jail - check your own pockets. You are acting as your own warden and guard keeping yourself locked in a jail cell you built yourself.
Anonymous Coward
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United States
11/23/2022 09:10 PM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
GIVE YOURSELF CREDIT
[link to www.youtube.com (secure)]

Anonymous Coward
User ID: 84493348
United States
11/24/2022 07:03 AM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
The biggest crisis of our time is the 21st century lending crisis. Lenders are creating outrageous terms meant to fail & giving them out to everyone just because they qualify to get fckd. The cap that they put on interest rates are determined by people lobbying on behalf of the lenders. Balloon payments should be illegal. Arbitrary adjustable payments should be illegal. When interest rates fluctuate, it's not proportionate to inflation and it does nothing but tighten the vice grip even further.

Precious metals are nothing but a store of value; the argument that we should go back to PM is a false paradigm meant to muddy the very real dialog that needs to be had. At this point if we went backed to asset beacked currency for the dollar, it would hurt the dollar more than help it due to all the cash now in circulation.


I'm too young to remember but there used to be a time when the main way people bought property was all at once. It sounds crazy but that was reality. The baby boomers messed that up living outside of their means because the financial institutions instigated it; that's why we're here.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84795815


Lol what? The 21st century lending crisis?

You do realize for the past almost 10 years that money has been the cheapest basically it’s ever been?

Instead of having such a strong opinion about things you clearly know nothing about, maybe try educating yourself a little bit. And that doesn’t mean watch bitchute videos. It means real education.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 42717143




Your a pretentious antagonizer that isn't interested in any meaningful dialog. They were agreeing with you & it went right over your head.

The only differing opinion was that you seem to think everything is just fine; almost taking the stance that it's never been better.

Your response was a very bold statement; What exactly does "money has been the cheapest its ever been" even mean?
Anonymous Coward
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United States
11/24/2022 09:46 AM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
Under Roosevelt the credit of this nation was collectivized in an implementation of the fifth plank of the communist manifesto. Today, this would be called “identity theft.” Your credit was taken without proper recompense nor proper bookkeeping. The central bank hypothecates your promissory notes and takes a lien on your property.

They run a recurrent cycle of easy [credit] money for several years and then a tight [credit] money for several more years. This is a wealth aggregation scheme that can only end with the banker owning everything. Thus “you will own nothing.”
Anonymous Coward
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11/24/2022 09:54 AM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
Eric Harris Braun: [link to eric.harris-braun.com]

“When I was growing up in Ecuador, I remember being in the marketplace where I saw a man sitting at a table with a pen and paper. He was listening to a customer and was writing away like mad. I remember not understanding what that man was selling. Was he composing a poem on the spot? I couldn't imagine the visibly poor customer wanting a poem. So I asked my parents who told me that he was selling the writing itself; that the customer was illiterate and needed to send a letter and so would pay the man to write the letter. I remember being amazed by this at the time, but then forgot about it pretty quickly. This story comes back to me now that I've come to understand that almost all of us in the world are doing exactly the same thing as those illiterate customers I saw in my youth. We are illiterate and don't even know it. We don't recognize that there is a form of "writing" we hire others to do for us but could learn ourselves. This form of writing is the writing of wealth acknowledgments, and what we call it is money.”

Money is a special extension of language where by means of symbols and contracts humans are enabled the exchange of ownership of real things by means of proxy instruments.

More on this concept from the developers at MetaCurrency: [link to metacurrency.org]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 82070612
United States
11/24/2022 09:55 AM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
If sincerely seeking critique of usury and fractional reserve banking, a suggestion:


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75192448


The thumbnail looks like highly biased propaganda
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 81559706


That's as good as any reason to ignore it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75192448


Well, you do have to consider the source. But no one ever said not to watch it. Just made an observation.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 84198874
United States
11/24/2022 09:56 AM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
Money is not a *thing* - money is a communication about a shared value by which real things may be assigned values.

Here is an example of a token symbolic representation of the value of a human hour; still existing after 25 years of usage:

[link to theithacan.org (secure)]
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84198874


From page 100:
Thread: Get rid of the money system, then get rid of goverrments (Page 100)
Anonymous Coward
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11/24/2022 09:59 AM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
The biggest crisis of our time is the 21st century lending crisis. Lenders are creating outrageous terms meant to fail & giving them out to everyone just because they qualify to get fckd. The cap that they put on interest rates are determined by people lobbying on behalf of the lenders. Balloon payments should be illegal. Arbitrary adjustable payments should be illegal. When interest rates fluctuate, it's not proportionate to inflation and it does nothing but tighten the vice grip even further.

Precious metals are nothing but a store of value; the argument that we should go back to PM is a false paradigm meant to muddy the very real dialog that needs to be had. At this point if we went backed to asset beacked currency for the dollar, it would hurt the dollar more than help it due to all the cash now in circulation.


I'm too young to remember but there used to be a time when the main way people bought property was all at once. It sounds crazy but that was reality. The baby boomers messed that up living outside of their means because the financial institutions instigated it; that's why we're here.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84795815


Lol what? The 21st century lending crisis?

You do realize for the past almost 10 years that money has been the cheapest basically it’s ever been?

Instead of having such a strong opinion about things you clearly know nothing about, maybe try educating yourself a little bit. And that doesn’t mean watch bitchute videos. It means real education.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 42717143




Your a pretentious antagonizer that isn't interested in any meaningful dialog. They were agreeing with you & it went right over your head.

The only differing opinion was that you seem to think everything is just fine; almost taking the stance that it's never been better.

Your response was a very bold statement; What exactly does "money has been the cheapest its ever been" even mean?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84493348


Well see, I was right. If you don’t understand what cheap money means, you aren’t qualified to have a strong opinion that is meaningful.

You can have your own opinion. It just is irrelevant.

That’s like someone telling you how to play soccer and then asking you ‘what’s a yellow card’?
Anonymous Coward
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United States
11/24/2022 10:00 AM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
The working philosophy of the people at the Metacurrency project: [link to metacurrency.org (secure)]

or metacurrency.org/about/ (add your own ww-etc)
Anonymous Coward
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11/24/2022 10:10 AM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
You need to read the Ronald Coase theorem and examine what he wrote about transaction costs. What happens with a currency that bears a regular charge based upon the writings of Silvio Gesell is the rate of exchange multiplies such that the cost of each exchange drops precipitously.

[link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]

With a time-as-money system of exchange you must maintain so many units of exchange per participant in circulation. You must have pumps and pulls – I.E. - some formalized method of putting currency into circulation while using a time based charge to pull currency out of circulation. Quantity of circulating media is maintained at a ratio to population demographics.

Hypothecation of promissory notes is a recognized method of placing currency into circulation, and in addition I propose subsidies for food production enterprises thus validating the over-active tabby's statement.

Ronald Coase also recognized the need for formalized property rights in economics; this simply expressed position is the largest failure in socialized societies. China has yet to generally recognize the need for property rights.
Anonymous Coward
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11/24/2022 10:13 AM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
If you buy into the idea that money is a communication, that does not equate into money will be free. Money-as-communication must still be accurate and true; in my vernacular, any act of telling lies with money symbols is a counterfeiting. Anti-counterfeiting (guarantee of specific performance of contract) will always cost; you need professional administrators.

These administrators must be in an agency relation to the people and should (IMO) be self bonded. Any malfeasance of office needs to be met with loss of job and loss of bond.
Anonymous Coward
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11/24/2022 10:17 AM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
When people can’t simplify ideas and boil them down into easily understood pieces of information, there’s a very good chance those aren’t good ideas or their ideas.
Anonymous Coward
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11/24/2022 10:22 AM
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Re: Question for the anti-bank, anti-lending and anti-crypto crowd (who believe all 3)
the cost of lies

Today it occurs to me that one way of describing inflation is that it is a tax on falsehood. Most of the taxes we pay are explicitly levied in some way or another. Inflation is the implicit tax that we pay through the structure of the monetary system itself, because of the way money is issued. I don’t want to dwell on that too much as others have; see: wikipedia, Ron Paul on the right, and Tom Greco on the left.

What is interesting to me is that this “tax” is another case of the importance of truth telling. We think most often of the moral questions of individual truth telling, but this is a question of corporate truth telling. A fundamental lie is built into the structure of money itself, and that lie hurts us. It’s a tricky lie, the one that’s built into money, because it feels like a small one. In fact it’s measurably small. It’s in the single digits. It’s the 3-5% percent annual inflation rate!

Unfortunately as our society is structured it is virtually impossible for us to reverse that lie. But we can start bubbles of truth telling, bubbles that can then grow and expand… Those bubbles are all the places were we start issuing money honestly. Where we recognize that money is actually information, and as such each monetary transaction is a speech act, a telling. If it is a truthful telling, it is an acknowledgment of a wealth exchange. If that telling over or understates the wealth exchanged, then that falsehood will come back to haunt us.

[link to eric.harris-braun.com (secure)]





GLP