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Rapture^

 
Anonymous Coward
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01/12/2023 01:30 PM
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Re: Rapture^
No such thing as interpretation, that's mans carnal mind. The Bible is spiritually discerned not "interpreted".
Achduke7

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01/12/2023 02:31 PM

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Re: Rapture^
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.


1Thessalonians 4:13-18
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85095557



The classic Rapture text.

Nice find!

You're learning ....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


That text refers to the resurrection.

How do we know it is the resurrection? By looking at the context defined in 1th 4:14 which is talking about the resurrection of Christ and in the future our resurrection also.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 Quoting: Achduke7

The fact of the matter is people like yourself in this thread and others have made this a religious doctrine in itself when scripture is very clear on God's promise to remove His bride. People or I should say the devil has worked overtime and has made this such a complicated issue with semantic arguments by confusing simple words like tribulation for example. People use this word describing the 7-year Tribulation, others get specific and claim tribulation only denotes the first 3 1/2 years of the 7-year tribulation, both are correct. Paul himself said He shouldn't even have to write to us regarding this promise as we will all know the season we're in (1 Thessolonians 5:5) and the scripture is very clear on who will be removed and what will take place after the bride of Christ is removed.

People have misconstrued God's word and torn down God's promise to His people at the end of the age by lies such as, for example, claiming the Rapture is an idea thought up in the 1800s by Darby and McDonald which is laughable (as the term has been echoed and prophesied for thousands of years and is in the Old Testament) and yet another attempt to foil God's promise and dash people's hope making them complacent.

It's sickening to witness this thread in some instances being a perfect example.


There are two Resurrections-

The Wedding Supper of the Lamb in Heaven takes place after the Rapture during the 7-year Tribulation and the Wedding is for Jesus and His followers who are alive on earth (at the time of the Rapture) who are taken up along with those who have died in Christ in the past (who will come with Jesus in the clouds) to be reunited with their bodies to put on the incorruptible and don new heavenly bodies (1 Thessaloninans 4:16-17). These will be the people who attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven with Christ and this takes place during the 7-year Tribulation.

Those who are left behind and have to endure the 7-year Tribulation and lose their lives but are saved because of faith will have to wait until they too are resurrected but will not experience the Marriage Supper with Christ (Revelation 6:9). These martyrs of the 7-year Tribulation are told to wait a little longer until their brothers and sisters are also killed for their testimony so they too can be resurrected in Christ's second coming (Revelation 6:11, 20:4).




"The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There will be the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).

What great rejoicing will attend the first resurrection! What great anguish at the second! What a responsibility we have to share the Gospel! “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 23).

[link to www.gotquestions.org (secure)]
 Quoting: Seek^


The resurrection is not a religious doctrine. This is clearly defined in the bible. Christ and others mentioned it dozens of times. What they did not mention is the rapture. You know why? Because it is not the rapture. It was called the harpazo which is part of the resurrection. I understand that rapture is a Latin word that flowed to English but the original Greek was harpazo and rapture no longer means catch away to the clouds but has now become a full fledged doctrine and even includes movies just to define that one word. In all actuality the whole rapture doctrine is the resurrection that Christ talked about.

There are only two more resurrections. The first resurrection is when the just are going which includes those that are in the tribulation. How do we know this?

Read Revelation 20:4-6. This is the 1st resurrection and tribulation saints are part of this resurrection. How do we know they are tribulation saints? Because they did not take the mark or worship the beast which happens during the tribulation.

And the 1st resurrection does not happen in phases. It happens in the twink of an eye or instantly for everyone.

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Last Edited by Achduke7 on 01/12/2023 02:35 PM
Achduke
Achduke7

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01/12/2023 02:59 PM

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Re: Rapture^
First, it is important to recognize the purpose of the tribulation. According to Daniel 9:27, there is a seventieth “seven” (seven years) that is still yet to come. Daniel’s entire prophecy of the seventy sevens (Daniel 9:20-27) is speaking of the nation of Israel. It is a time period in which God focuses His attention especially on Israel. The seventieth seven, the tribulation, must also be a time when God deals specifically with Israel. While this does not necessarily indicate that the church could not also be present, it does bring into question why the church would need to be on the earth during that time.

The primary Scripture passage on the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The rapture is God’s removing of His people from the earth. A few verses later, in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the tribulation. It seems inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things. Either Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or He will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.” However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation.

[link to www.gotquestions.org (secure)]
 Quoting: Seek^


You are making up words. It is not "wrath of the tribulation". It is tribulation and then wrath. They are two separate words and two separate events. Look at Matthew 24:29. It is not hard to understand. Everything before Matt 24:29 is tribulation. And then at Matt 24:29 is Is After the tribulation because (well read it) The tribulation is over! Then the Wrath starts and Christ gathers his people.

As for Daniel 9 The first 3.5 years of that week was fulfilled in Christ. The covenant that was to be fulfilled is the New Covenant which Christ confirmed. This was the end of sacrifice. Have you seen any sacrifices since in Israel since 70 AD? Christ was cut off at 3.5 years and now the 2nd half of this 3.5 years is yet to happen. That will be the tribulation of 3.5 years.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the peoples of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Daniel 9:24-27 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Achduke
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01/12/2023 03:17 PM
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Re: Rapture^
"Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

Luke 21:28
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85095557



"And then shall they see the Son of Man coming"


All will see His Coming. ALL.

That disqualifies a secret Rapture 7 years prior.

ALL will see His Coming.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


Why do you assume that the Bible teaches a secret Rapture? To the best of my understanding, the whole world will know about it when it happens. The great mass of humanity will be stood there, slowly realizing what a momentous event has just happened. But we who have been Raptured will be long gone.
 Quoting: Judethz



I personally do not believe in a 'secret' or quiet Rapture, however a good portion of the pre-trib camp believes that.

Although I have never imbibed in the genre, the 'Left Behind' series of books and movies highlight the 'snatching away' part, but do not stress a 'parousia' or coming and continual visual presence of Christ.

Can you point to a scripture verse that clearly states that the whole world will see Christ come and snatch away His Bride exactly 7 years before He comes again?

I didn't think so ...


Something interesting for you to consider ...

Regarding the death of Lazarus, Martha's brother.

Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”


WHEN does Martha say Lazarus will rise again?
AT THE LAST DAY
The Day of the Lord - Resurrection Day - The Rapture
All the same day

Martha does NOT say that Lazarus will rise in the Rapture, 7 years prior to the Last Day. Nor does Jesus correct her and place the rising of Lazarus 7 years prior to the Last Day.
Anonymous Coward
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01/12/2023 03:51 PM
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Re: Rapture^
...



Daniel's 70th Week.

Still not God's Wrath
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432

Provide scriptural proof. Explain your stance scripturally. Let us see it.


Unbelievable.

You don't even comprehend that the final week in Daniel's 70 week prophesy is the 7-year Tribulation which includes God's wrath ie the Great Tribulation or the second half of the 7-year Tribulation.

You have to be troll at this point, pathetic.
 Quoting: Seek^



I assure you .. no, I PROMISE you that I am NO TROLL.
[As God is my witness, I'm not just trolling]

I am a serious, committed christian and study the Word very closely.

God's Wrath is not the tribulation, rather God's Wrath comes immediately AFTER the tribulation.

Remember the 30 days?

I have come from where you are now. I understand the pre-trib rapture and your arguments for it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432

I assure you that you have absolutely, without a doubt, no idea what you're talking about. None. Zero. I know this for a fact.

Anyone can grab random scripture and throw random interpretation on it, it's what you've done since Page 6 of this thread and what people do to tear down God's word.

Get out of this thread. It's pitiful to read.
 Quoting: Seek^



Why all the hostility? Calm down.

The Subject is 'Rapture', not 'Pre-Trib Rapture ONLY'.

The Subject seems to indicate that views other than pre-trib are welcome for discussion.


No one can presume to know what another individual knows ...

As I have stated previously, I came from the pre-trib camp 30ish years back. I do understand your position from Daniel to Revelation. Because I do not recite back to you your point, does not mean that I do not understand where you are coming from. Please tone it down. I will do likewise.

Every endtimes position is open for evaluation and comparison against what the Word of God has to say.

I personally believe the Pre-Wrath view is the most scripturally accurate and stands up to scrutiny best.


Is it possible to have a civil discussion about the Rapture on this thread?
Anonymous Coward
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01/12/2023 03:54 PM
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...

Provide scriptural proof. Explain your stance scripturally. Let us see it.


Unbelievable.

You don't even comprehend that the final week in Daniel's 70 week prophesy is the 7-year Tribulation which includes God's wrath ie the Great Tribulation or the second half of the 7-year Tribulation.

You have to be troll at this point, pathetic.
 Quoting: Seek^



I assure you .. no, I PROMISE you that I am NO TROLL.
[As God is my witness, I'm not just trolling]

I am a serious, committed christian and study the Word very closely.

God's Wrath is not the tribulation, rather God's Wrath comes immediately AFTER the tribulation.

Remember the 30 days?

I have come from where you are now. I understand the pre-trib rapture and your arguments for it.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432

I assure you that you have absolutely, without a doubt, no idea what you're talking about. None. Zero. I know this for a fact.

Anyone can grab random scripture and throw random interpretation on it, it's what you've done since Page 6 of this thread and what people do to tear down God's word.

Denying those seeking Christ and His promise and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (which is Christ's own celebration with us) by purposefully misconstruing scripture and sowing confusion and removing hope is tearing down God's word. Imagine if someone became lax in their walk because of the nonsense you've posted here or elsewhere and died when the Rapture occurred? What if you've strengthened the false views of an unbeliever reading this thread and they are killed when the Rapture takes place or soon after and are lost forever? Do you not realize God will hold you accountable?

You're interested in no truth here hence why you omitted my quote explaining in 6-year-old terms Daniel's 70 week prophecy which is obviously something you don't understand and are choosing to ignore to sow confusion. You've contradicted yourself an innumerable amount of times in this thread while throwing out personal attacks in your nonsense.

Get out of this thread. It's pitiful to read.
 Quoting: Seek^


Revelation tells you when God's Wrath starts.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Now this corresponds to Matthew 24.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Now applying logic we see that anything before the wrath which happens when the sun and moon go dark is tribulation. After the sun and moon go dark is God's Wrath.
 Quoting: Achduke7



This is spot on and key to understanding endtimes.

Thank You
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Rapture^
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.


1Thessalonians 4:13-18
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85095557



The classic Rapture text.

Nice find!

You're learning ....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


That text refers to the resurrection.

How do we know it is the resurrection? By looking at the context defined in 1th 4:14 which is talking about the resurrection of Christ and in the future our resurrection also.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 Quoting: Achduke7



I'm of the opinion that the Resurrection, the Rapture and the opening of the Day of the Lord (God's Wrath) all occur at the same time / are the same event.

There is no resurrection 7 years before there is the real Resurrection taught in scripture.

I believe the enemy could use this 7 year resurrection before the real Resurrection to fool pre-trib christians into thinking they have missed the rapture/resurrection.

Jesus taught perseverance and prayer, not escape.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Rapture^
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.


1Thessalonians 4:13-18
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85095557



The classic Rapture text.

Nice find!

You're learning ....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


That text refers to the resurrection.

How do we know it is the resurrection? By looking at the context defined in 1th 4:14 which is talking about the resurrection of Christ and in the future our resurrection also.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 Quoting: Achduke7

The fact of the matter is people like yourself in this thread and others have made this a religious doctrine in itself when scripture is very clear on God's promise to remove His bride.
 Quoting: Seek^



Scripture is clear that we are not appointed unto God's Wrath
We can agree on that point (I hope) OK?

Now we have to ascertain when God's Wrath begins, for we can be certain that we are not around when God's Wrath falls.

In Revelation 6:17 we see clearly when God's Wrath comes:
“For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

That occurs immediately after the cosmic disturbances prior in Chapter 6 of Revelation AND also stated by Jesus Himself in the Olivet Discourse:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." Matt 24:29

These cosmic events occur at the 6th Seal and mark the end of the tribulation period and the beginning of the Day of the Lord's Wrath.

It makes perfect sense that in the interlude of Chapter 7, the 144K are sealed and the church is raptured/resurrected.

You can read about your rapture/resurrection in Revelation 7:9-17

God's Wrath commences in Chapter 8, with the church safe in Heaven.
Anonymous Coward
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01/12/2023 04:42 PM
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But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.


1Thessalonians 4:13-18
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85095557



The classic Rapture text.

Nice find!

You're learning ....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


That text refers to the resurrection.

How do we know it is the resurrection? By looking at the context defined in 1th 4:14 which is talking about the resurrection of Christ and in the future our resurrection also.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 Quoting: Achduke7

People or I should say the devil has worked overtime and has made this such a complicated issue with semantic arguments by confusing simple words like tribulation for example. People use this word describing the 7-year Tribulation, others get specific and claim tribulation only denotes the first 3 1/2 years of the 7-year tribulation, both are correct.

It's sickening to witness this thread in some instances being a perfect example.
 Quoting: Seek^



This point I can heartily agree with you!

In order to communicate with one another effectively, the language barrier must first be scaled.

Terms should be carefully defined so that we are certain to be discussing the same event.


I wouldn't describe it as 'sickening', but perhaps we have gotten off on the wrong foot due to this very issue of not defining our terms.

A thought - Perhaps if we discuss a single point, rather than posting a wall of scripture on a variety of subjects, we would gain more traction and coherence, as well as mutual understanding?
Anonymous Coward
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01/12/2023 04:47 PM
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Re: Rapture^
No such thing as interpretation, that's mans carnal mind. The Bible is spiritually discerned not "interpreted".
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 84986257



How do you think the Bible was translated into virtually every language on earth?

Translators interpreted what was written and translated that interpretation into the new language.

Interpretation - 'the action of explaining the meaning of something'
Achduke7

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01/12/2023 04:53 PM

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...



The classic Rapture text.

Nice find!

You're learning ....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


That text refers to the resurrection.

How do we know it is the resurrection? By looking at the context defined in 1th 4:14 which is talking about the resurrection of Christ and in the future our resurrection also.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 Quoting: Achduke7

The fact of the matter is people like yourself in this thread and others have made this a religious doctrine in itself when scripture is very clear on God's promise to remove His bride.
 Quoting: Seek^



Scripture is clear that we are not appointed unto God's Wrath
We can agree on that point (I hope) OK?

Now we have to ascertain when God's Wrath begins, for we can be certain that we are not around when God's Wrath falls.

In Revelation 6:17 we see clearly when God's Wrath comes:
“For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

That occurs immediately after the cosmic disturbances prior in Chapter 6 of Revelation AND also stated by Jesus Himself in the Olivet Discourse:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." Matt 24:29

These cosmic events occur at the 6th Seal and mark the end of the tribulation period and the beginning of the Day of the Lord's Wrath.

It makes perfect sense that in the interlude of Chapter 7, the 144K are sealed and the church is raptured/resurrected.

You can read about your rapture/resurrection in Revelation 7:9-17

God's Wrath commences in Chapter 8, with the church safe in Heaven.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.


Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Achduke
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Re: Rapture^
First, it is important to recognize the purpose of the tribulation. According to Daniel 9:27, there is a seventieth “seven” (seven years) that is still yet to come. Daniel’s entire prophecy of the seventy sevens (Daniel 9:20-27) is speaking of the nation of Israel. It is a time period in which God focuses His attention especially on Israel. The seventieth seven, the tribulation, must also be a time when God deals specifically with Israel. While this does not necessarily indicate that the church could not also be present, it does bring into question why the church would need to be on the earth during that time.
 Quoting: Seek^



No disrespect, just discussing here .. OK?

The purpose of the 70th Week of Daniel is, according to scripture:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

I don't think anywhere in scripture is Daniel's 70th Week called 'the Tribulation'.
The 70th Week contains the tribulation, as well as a lot more than just tribulation.

If we be careful about applying blanket terminology and let scripture define our terms, I think we can profit from it.
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...


That text refers to the resurrection.

How do we know it is the resurrection? By looking at the context defined in 1th 4:14 which is talking about the resurrection of Christ and in the future our resurrection also.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 Quoting: Achduke7

The fact of the matter is people like yourself in this thread and others have made this a religious doctrine in itself when scripture is very clear on God's promise to remove His bride.
 Quoting: Seek^



Scripture is clear that we are not appointed unto God's Wrath
We can agree on that point (I hope) OK?

Now we have to ascertain when God's Wrath begins, for we can be certain that we are not around when God's Wrath falls.

In Revelation 6:17 we see clearly when God's Wrath comes:
“For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

That occurs immediately after the cosmic disturbances prior in Chapter 6 of Revelation AND also stated by Jesus Himself in the Olivet Discourse:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." Matt 24:29

These cosmic events occur at the 6th Seal and mark the end of the tribulation period and the beginning of the Day of the Lord's Wrath.

It makes perfect sense that in the interlude of Chapter 7, the 144K are sealed and the church is raptured/resurrected.

You can read about your rapture/resurrection in Revelation 7:9-17

God's Wrath commences in Chapter 8, with the church safe in Heaven.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.


Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Couple more good references to the most often talked about event in scripture .. the Day of the Lord.

Thanks!

Cosmic disturbance/celestial events are always mentioned in conjunction with the Day of the Lord.

These cosmic events are a good timeline marker across various scriptures to divide tribulation from God's Wrath.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Rapture^
...



The classic Rapture text.

Nice find!

You're learning ....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


That text refers to the resurrection.

How do we know it is the resurrection? By looking at the context defined in 1th 4:14 which is talking about the resurrection of Christ and in the future our resurrection also.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 Quoting: Achduke7

The fact of the matter is people like yourself in this thread and others have made this a religious doctrine in itself when scripture is very clear on God's promise to remove His bride. People or I should say the devil has worked overtime and has made this such a complicated issue with semantic arguments by confusing simple words like tribulation for example. People use this word describing the 7-year Tribulation, others get specific and claim tribulation only denotes the first 3 1/2 years of the 7-year tribulation, both are correct. Paul himself said He shouldn't even have to write to us regarding this promise as we will all know the season we're in (1 Thessolonians 5:5) and the scripture is very clear on who will be removed and what will take place after the bride of Christ is removed.

People have misconstrued God's word and torn down God's promise to His people at the end of the age by lies such as, for example, claiming the Rapture is an idea thought up in the 1800s by Darby and McDonald which is laughable (as the term has been echoed and prophesied for thousands of years and is in the Old Testament) and yet another attempt to foil God's promise and dash people's hope making them complacent.

It's sickening to witness this thread in some instances being a perfect example.


There are two Resurrections-

The Wedding Supper of the Lamb in Heaven takes place after the Rapture during the 7-year Tribulation and the Wedding is for Jesus and His followers who are alive on earth (at the time of the Rapture) who are taken up along with those who have died in Christ in the past (who will come with Jesus in the clouds) to be reunited with their bodies to put on the incorruptible and don new heavenly bodies (1 Thessaloninans 4:16-17). These will be the people who attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven with Christ and this takes place during the 7-year Tribulation.

Those who are left behind and have to endure the 7-year Tribulation and lose their lives but are saved because of faith will have to wait until they too are resurrected but will not experience the Marriage Supper with Christ (Revelation 6:9). These martyrs of the 7-year Tribulation are told to wait a little longer until their brothers and sisters are also killed for their testimony so they too can be resurrected in Christ's second coming (Revelation 6:11, 20:4).




"The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There will be the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).

What great rejoicing will attend the first resurrection! What great anguish at the second! What a responsibility we have to share the Gospel! “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 23).

[link to www.gotquestions.org (secure)]
 Quoting: Seek^


The resurrection is not a religious doctrine. This is clearly defined in the bible. Christ and others mentioned it dozens of times. What they did not mention is the rapture. You know why? Because it is not the rapture. It was called the harpazo which is part of the resurrection. I understand that rapture is a Latin word that flowed to English but the original Greek was harpazo and rapture no longer means catch away to the clouds but has now become a full fledged doctrine and even includes movies just to define that one word. In all actuality the whole rapture doctrine is the resurrection that Christ talked about.

There are only two more resurrections. The first resurrection is when the just are going which includes those that are in the tribulation. How do we know this?

Read Revelation 20:4-6. This is the 1st resurrection and tribulation saints are part of this resurrection. How do we know they are tribulation saints? Because they did not take the mark or worship the beast which happens during the tribulation.

And the 1st resurrection does not happen in phases. It happens in the twink of an eye or instantly for everyone.

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 Quoting: Achduke7



Great synopsis.

Could not have said it better.

Spot on. Agree and Thank You!
Anonymous Coward
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01/12/2023 05:55 PM
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Re: Rapture^
First, it is important to recognize the purpose of the tribulation. According to Daniel 9:27, there is a seventieth “seven” (seven years) that is still yet to come. Daniel’s entire prophecy of the seventy sevens (Daniel 9:20-27) is speaking of the nation of Israel. It is a time period in which God focuses His attention especially on Israel. The seventieth seven, the tribulation, must also be a time when God deals specifically with Israel. While this does not necessarily indicate that the church could not also be present, it does bring into question why the church would need to be on the earth during that time.

The primary Scripture passage on the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The rapture is God’s removing of His people from the earth. A few verses later, in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the tribulation. It seems inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things. Either Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or He will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.” However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation.
 Quoting: Seek^


You are making up words. It is not "wrath of the tribulation". It is tribulation and then wrath. They are two separate words and two separate events. Look at Matthew 24:29. It is not hard to understand. Everything before Matt 24:29 is tribulation. And then at Matt 24:29 is Is After the tribulation because (well read it) The tribulation is over! Then the Wrath starts and Christ gathers his people.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Solid and Spot On.



As for Daniel 9 The first 3.5 years of that week was fulfilled in Christ. The covenant that was to be fulfilled is the New Covenant which Christ confirmed. This was the end of sacrifice. Have you seen any sacrifices since in Israel since 70 AD? Christ was cut off at 3.5 years and now the 2nd half of this 3.5 years is yet to happen. That will be the tribulation of 3.5 years.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Now here is where it gets interesting and I applaud you for taking this one on.

Because some of the things Daniel details were fulfilled in Christ's earthly ministry of 3.5 years, we can conclude that half of Daniel's 70th Week has been ticked down.
3.5 years remain on God's time piece.



Daniel 9:24-27 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 Quoting: Achduke7


The antichrist confirms a 7 year covenant
[Interesting .. 7 years like Daniel's 70th Week .. a counterfeit covenant]

However, the antichrist does not control God's time piece.
Only God controls His clock and 3.5 years have already run out.

God's time piece again starts when the antichrist declares himself god and demands worship.

OP, this is why we are adament about tribulation vs God's Wrath.
So very many believe we have 7 years of tribulation, when it will be 3.5 years of Great Tribulation.

Nice post Achduke7

Thank you for your contribution!
Judethz
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01/12/2023 06:57 PM

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Re: Rapture^
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.


1Thessalonians 4:13-18
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85095557



The classic Rapture text.

Nice find!

You're learning ....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


That text refers to the resurrection.

How do we know it is the resurrection? By looking at the context defined in 1th 4:14 which is talking about the resurrection of Christ and in the future our resurrection also.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 Quoting: Achduke7


blackcat You are just making stuff up as you go along.
Anonymous Coward
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01/12/2023 07:07 PM
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Re: Rapture^
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.


1Thessalonians 4:13-18
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85095557



The classic Rapture text.

Nice find!

You're learning ....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


That text refers to the resurrection.

How do we know it is the resurrection? By looking at the context defined in 1th 4:14 which is talking about the resurrection of Christ and in the future our resurrection also.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 Quoting: Achduke7


:blackcat: You are just making stuff up as you go along.
 Quoting: Judethz



You must be kidding.

Can you back that statement up with any facts?
Achduke7

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01/12/2023 07:35 PM

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Re: Rapture^
First, it is important to recognize the purpose of the tribulation. According to Daniel 9:27, there is a seventieth “seven” (seven years) that is still yet to come. Daniel’s entire prophecy of the seventy sevens (Daniel 9:20-27) is speaking of the nation of Israel. It is a time period in which God focuses His attention especially on Israel. The seventieth seven, the tribulation, must also be a time when God deals specifically with Israel. While this does not necessarily indicate that the church could not also be present, it does bring into question why the church would need to be on the earth during that time.

The primary Scripture passage on the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The rapture is God’s removing of His people from the earth. A few verses later, in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the tribulation. It seems inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things. Either Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or He will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.” However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation.
 Quoting: Seek^


You are making up words. It is not "wrath of the tribulation". It is tribulation and then wrath. They are two separate words and two separate events. Look at Matthew 24:29. It is not hard to understand. Everything before Matt 24:29 is tribulation. And then at Matt 24:29 is Is After the tribulation because (well read it) The tribulation is over! Then the Wrath starts and Christ gathers his people.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Solid and Spot On.



As for Daniel 9 The first 3.5 years of that week was fulfilled in Christ. The covenant that was to be fulfilled is the New Covenant which Christ confirmed. This was the end of sacrifice. Have you seen any sacrifices since in Israel since 70 AD? Christ was cut off at 3.5 years and now the 2nd half of this 3.5 years is yet to happen. That will be the tribulation of 3.5 years.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Now here is where it gets interesting and I applaud you for taking this one on.

Because some of the things Daniel details were fulfilled in Christ's earthly ministry of 3.5 years, we can conclude that half of Daniel's 70th Week has been ticked down.
3.5 years remain on God's time piece.



Daniel 9:24-27 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 Quoting: Achduke7


The antichrist confirms a 7 year covenant
[Interesting .. 7 years like Daniel's 70th Week .. a counterfeit covenant]

However, the antichrist does not control God's time piece.
Only God controls His clock and 3.5 years have already run out.

God's time piece again starts when the antichrist declares himself god and demands worship.

OP, this is why we are adament about tribulation vs God's Wrath.
So very many believe we have 7 years of tribulation, when it will be 3.5 years of Great Tribulation.

Nice post Achduke7

Thank you for your contribution!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


Where do you see the antichrist confirming any covenant? Looking at the most most common place in 9:27 the word "he" does not even exist.
Achduke
Achduke7

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01/12/2023 07:44 PM

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Re: Rapture^
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.


1Thessalonians 4:13-18
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85095557



The classic Rapture text.

Nice find!

You're learning ....
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


That text refers to the resurrection.

How do we know it is the resurrection? By looking at the context defined in 1th 4:14 which is talking about the resurrection of Christ and in the future our resurrection also.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 Quoting: Achduke7


blackcat You are just making stuff up as you go along.
 Quoting: Judethz


I am sorry. I do not normally see your biblically ignorant posts. I blocked them a long time ago.

Since you cared to comment without adding anything to the subject matter, what is the term used when Christ Died and Rose again?

Last Edited by Achduke7 on 01/12/2023 07:49 PM
Achduke
Achduke7

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01/12/2023 08:36 PM

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Re: Rapture^
...


That text refers to the resurrection.

How do we know it is the resurrection? By looking at the context defined in 1th 4:14 which is talking about the resurrection of Christ and in the future our resurrection also.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 Quoting: Achduke7

The fact of the matter is people like yourself in this thread and others have made this a religious doctrine in itself when scripture is very clear on God's promise to remove His bride. People or I should say the devil has worked overtime and has made this such a complicated issue with semantic arguments by confusing simple words like tribulation for example. People use this word describing the 7-year Tribulation, others get specific and claim tribulation only denotes the first 3 1/2 years of the 7-year tribulation, both are correct. Paul himself said He shouldn't even have to write to us regarding this promise as we will all know the season we're in (1 Thessolonians 5:5) and the scripture is very clear on who will be removed and what will take place after the bride of Christ is removed.

People have misconstrued God's word and torn down God's promise to His people at the end of the age by lies such as, for example, claiming the Rapture is an idea thought up in the 1800s by Darby and McDonald which is laughable (as the term has been echoed and prophesied for thousands of years and is in the Old Testament) and yet another attempt to foil God's promise and dash people's hope making them complacent.

It's sickening to witness this thread in some instances being a perfect example.


There are two Resurrections-

The Wedding Supper of the Lamb in Heaven takes place after the Rapture during the 7-year Tribulation and the Wedding is for Jesus and His followers who are alive on earth (at the time of the Rapture) who are taken up along with those who have died in Christ in the past (who will come with Jesus in the clouds) to be reunited with their bodies to put on the incorruptible and don new heavenly bodies (1 Thessaloninans 4:16-17). These will be the people who attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven with Christ and this takes place during the 7-year Tribulation.

Those who are left behind and have to endure the 7-year Tribulation and lose their lives but are saved because of faith will have to wait until they too are resurrected but will not experience the Marriage Supper with Christ (Revelation 6:9). These martyrs of the 7-year Tribulation are told to wait a little longer until their brothers and sisters are also killed for their testimony so they too can be resurrected in Christ's second coming (Revelation 6:11, 20:4).




"The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There will be the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).

What great rejoicing will attend the first resurrection! What great anguish at the second! What a responsibility we have to share the Gospel! “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 23).

[link to www.gotquestions.org (secure)]
 Quoting: Seek^


The resurrection is not a religious doctrine. This is clearly defined in the bible. Christ and others mentioned it dozens of times. What they did not mention is the rapture. You know why? Because it is not the rapture. It was called the harpazo which is part of the resurrection. I understand that rapture is a Latin word that flowed to English but the original Greek was harpazo and rapture no longer means catch away to the clouds but has now become a full fledged doctrine and even includes movies just to define that one word. In all actuality the whole rapture doctrine is the resurrection that Christ talked about.

There are only two more resurrections. The first resurrection is when the just are going which includes those that are in the tribulation. How do we know this?

Read Revelation 20:4-6. This is the 1st resurrection and tribulation saints are part of this resurrection. How do we know they are tribulation saints? Because they did not take the mark or worship the beast which happens during the tribulation.

And the 1st resurrection does not happen in phases. It happens in the twink of an eye or instantly for everyone.

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 Quoting: Achduke7



Great synopsis.

Could not have said it better.

Spot on. Agree and Thank You!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


Hi AC432,

Here is some more info on Revelation, Wrath and the resurrection/harpazo event.

The key to Revelation is the woes and God's wrath. They are time stamps on how to organize Revelation. Revelation jumps around a bit and tells the same things from different viewpoints and symbology. Also the word "Alas" is also the same word origin as woe. You can also follow the earthquake. The Earthquake of Rev 6:12 is the same quake as Rev 11:13. There seems to always be a Earthquake around the time of resurrection as it happened during Christ and also when the 2 Witnesses are resurrected.

Revelation 6:12 corresponds with Matthew 24:29.

The wrath of God which is after the 2nd woe is shown in Rev 6 and in Rev 11.



Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Achduke
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Re: Rapture^
First, it is important to recognize the purpose of the tribulation. According to Daniel 9:27, there is a seventieth “seven” (seven years) that is still yet to come. Daniel’s entire prophecy of the seventy sevens (Daniel 9:20-27) is speaking of the nation of Israel. It is a time period in which God focuses His attention especially on Israel. The seventieth seven, the tribulation, must also be a time when God deals specifically with Israel. While this does not necessarily indicate that the church could not also be present, it does bring into question why the church would need to be on the earth during that time.

The primary Scripture passage on the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The rapture is God’s removing of His people from the earth. A few verses later, in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the tribulation. It seems inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth. This could mean two things. Either Christ will protect believers in the midst of the trials, or He will deliver believers out of the trials. Both are valid meanings of the Greek word translated “from.” However, it is important to recognize what believers are promised to be kept from. It is not just the trial, but the “hour” of trial. Christ is promising to keep believers from the very time period that contains the trials, namely the tribulation. The purpose of the tribulation, the purpose of the rapture, the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and the interpretation of Revelation 3:10 all give clear support to the pre-tribulational position. If the Bible is interpreted literally and consistently, the pre-tribulational position is the most biblically-based interpretation.
 Quoting: Seek^


You are making up words. It is not "wrath of the tribulation". It is tribulation and then wrath. They are two separate words and two separate events. Look at Matthew 24:29. It is not hard to understand. Everything before Matt 24:29 is tribulation. And then at Matt 24:29 is Is After the tribulation because (well read it) The tribulation is over! Then the Wrath starts and Christ gathers his people.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Solid and Spot On.



As for Daniel 9 The first 3.5 years of that week was fulfilled in Christ. The covenant that was to be fulfilled is the New Covenant which Christ confirmed. This was the end of sacrifice. Have you seen any sacrifices since in Israel since 70 AD? Christ was cut off at 3.5 years and now the 2nd half of this 3.5 years is yet to happen. That will be the tribulation of 3.5 years.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Now here is where it gets interesting and I applaud you for taking this one on.

Because some of the things Daniel details were fulfilled in Christ's earthly ministry of 3.5 years, we can conclude that half of Daniel's 70th Week has been ticked down.
3.5 years remain on God's time piece.



Daniel 9:24-27 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 Quoting: Achduke7


The antichrist confirms a 7 year covenant
[Interesting .. 7 years like Daniel's 70th Week .. a counterfeit covenant]

However, the antichrist does not control God's time piece.
Only God controls His clock and 3.5 years have already run out.

God's time piece again starts when the antichrist declares himself god and demands worship.

OP, this is why we are adament about tribulation vs God's Wrath.
So very many believe we have 7 years of tribulation, when it will be 3.5 years of Great Tribulation.

Nice post Achduke7

Thank you for your contribution!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


Where do you see the antichrist confirming any covenant? Looking at the most most common place in 9:27 the word "he" does not even exist.
 Quoting: Achduke7


There are a number of viewpoints from various folks about Daniel 9:27.

Most would take the opinion that 'He' is the antichrist.

I lean towards Messiah being the 'He' in the first half of verse 27 and antichrist probably being the desolator in the second half of verse 27.

We shall see .. remain on watch!
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01/12/2023 09:49 PM

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Re: Rapture^
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You are making up words. It is not "wrath of the tribulation". It is tribulation and then wrath. They are two separate words and two separate events. Look at Matthew 24:29. It is not hard to understand. Everything before Matt 24:29 is tribulation. And then at Matt 24:29 is Is After the tribulation because (well read it) The tribulation is over! Then the Wrath starts and Christ gathers his people.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Solid and Spot On.



As for Daniel 9 The first 3.5 years of that week was fulfilled in Christ. The covenant that was to be fulfilled is the New Covenant which Christ confirmed. This was the end of sacrifice. Have you seen any sacrifices since in Israel since 70 AD? Christ was cut off at 3.5 years and now the 2nd half of this 3.5 years is yet to happen. That will be the tribulation of 3.5 years.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Now here is where it gets interesting and I applaud you for taking this one on.

Because some of the things Daniel details were fulfilled in Christ's earthly ministry of 3.5 years, we can conclude that half of Daniel's 70th Week has been ticked down.
3.5 years remain on God's time piece.



Daniel 9:24-27 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 Quoting: Achduke7


The antichrist confirms a 7 year covenant
[Interesting .. 7 years like Daniel's 70th Week .. a counterfeit covenant]

However, the antichrist does not control God's time piece.
Only God controls His clock and 3.5 years have already run out.

God's time piece again starts when the antichrist declares himself god and demands worship.

OP, this is why we are adament about tribulation vs God's Wrath.
So very many believe we have 7 years of tribulation, when it will be 3.5 years of Great Tribulation.

Nice post Achduke7

Thank you for your contribution!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


Where do you see the antichrist confirming any covenant? Looking at the most most common place in 9:27 the word "he" does not even exist.
 Quoting: Achduke7


There are a number of viewpoints from various folks about Daniel 9:27.

Most would take the opinion that 'He' is the antichrist.

I lean towards Messiah being the 'He' in the first half of verse 27 and antichrist probably being the desolator in the second half of verse 27.

We shall see .. remain on watch!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


The word he is not in the original Hebrew. Check strongs or the lexicon.

Last Edited by Achduke7 on 01/12/2023 11:09 PM
Achduke
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Re: Rapture^
...

The fact of the matter is people like yourself in this thread and others have made this a religious doctrine in itself when scripture is very clear on God's promise to remove His bride. People or I should say the devil has worked overtime and has made this such a complicated issue with semantic arguments by confusing simple words like tribulation for example. People use this word describing the 7-year Tribulation, others get specific and claim tribulation only denotes the first 3 1/2 years of the 7-year tribulation, both are correct. Paul himself said He shouldn't even have to write to us regarding this promise as we will all know the season we're in (1 Thessolonians 5:5) and the scripture is very clear on who will be removed and what will take place after the bride of Christ is removed.

People have misconstrued God's word and torn down God's promise to His people at the end of the age by lies such as, for example, claiming the Rapture is an idea thought up in the 1800s by Darby and McDonald which is laughable (as the term has been echoed and prophesied for thousands of years and is in the Old Testament) and yet another attempt to foil God's promise and dash people's hope making them complacent.

It's sickening to witness this thread in some instances being a perfect example.


There are two Resurrections-

The Wedding Supper of the Lamb in Heaven takes place after the Rapture during the 7-year Tribulation and the Wedding is for Jesus and His followers who are alive on earth (at the time of the Rapture) who are taken up along with those who have died in Christ in the past (who will come with Jesus in the clouds) to be reunited with their bodies to put on the incorruptible and don new heavenly bodies (1 Thessaloninans 4:16-17). These will be the people who attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven with Christ and this takes place during the 7-year Tribulation.

Those who are left behind and have to endure the 7-year Tribulation and lose their lives but are saved because of faith will have to wait until they too are resurrected but will not experience the Marriage Supper with Christ (Revelation 6:9). These martyrs of the 7-year Tribulation are told to wait a little longer until their brothers and sisters are also killed for their testimony so they too can be resurrected in Christ's second coming (Revelation 6:11, 20:4).




"The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There will be the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).

What great rejoicing will attend the first resurrection! What great anguish at the second! What a responsibility we have to share the Gospel! “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 23).

[link to www.gotquestions.org (secure)]
 Quoting: Seek^


The resurrection is not a religious doctrine. This is clearly defined in the bible. Christ and others mentioned it dozens of times. What they did not mention is the rapture. You know why? Because it is not the rapture. It was called the harpazo which is part of the resurrection. I understand that rapture is a Latin word that flowed to English but the original Greek was harpazo and rapture no longer means catch away to the clouds but has now become a full fledged doctrine and even includes movies just to define that one word. In all actuality the whole rapture doctrine is the resurrection that Christ talked about.

There are only two more resurrections. The first resurrection is when the just are going which includes those that are in the tribulation. How do we know this?

Read Revelation 20:4-6. This is the 1st resurrection and tribulation saints are part of this resurrection. How do we know they are tribulation saints? Because they did not take the mark or worship the beast which happens during the tribulation.

And the 1st resurrection does not happen in phases. It happens in the twink of an eye or instantly for everyone.

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 Quoting: Achduke7



Great synopsis.

Could not have said it better.

Spot on. Agree and Thank You!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


Hi AC432,

Here is some more info on Revelation, Wrath and the resurrection/harpazo event.

The key to Revelation is the woes and God's wrath. They are time stamps on how to organize Revelation. Revelation jumps around a bit and tells the same things from different viewpoints and symbology. Also the word "Alas" is also the same word origin as woe. You can also follow the earthquake. The Earthquake of Rev 6:12 is the same quake as Rev 11:13. There seems to always be a Earthquake around the time of resurrection as it happened during Christ and also when the 2 Witnesses are resurrected.

Revelation 6:12 corresponds with Matthew 24:29.

The wrath of God which is after the 2nd woe is shown in Rev 6 and in Rev 11.



Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
 Quoting: Achduke7



The overlay of the Trumpets and Woes makes good sense to me from a Pre-Wrath Rapture perspective.

Thanks for the reminder!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 22255432
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01/12/2023 10:22 PM
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Re: Rapture^
...


Solid and Spot On.



...


Now here is where it gets interesting and I applaud you for taking this one on.

Because some of the things Daniel details were fulfilled in Christ's earthly ministry of 3.5 years, we can conclude that half of Daniel's 70th Week has been ticked down.
3.5 years remain on God's time piece.



...


The antichrist confirms a 7 year covenant
[Interesting .. 7 years like Daniel's 70th Week .. a counterfeit covenant]

However, the antichrist does not control God's time piece.
Only God controls His clock and 3.5 years have already run out.

God's time piece again starts when the antichrist declares himself god and demands worship.

OP, this is why we are adament about tribulation vs God's Wrath.
So very many believe we have 7 years of tribulation, when it will be 3.5 years of Great Tribulation.

Nice post Achduke7

Thank you for your contribution!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


Where do you see the antichrist confirming any covenant? Looking at the most most common place in 9:27 the word "he" does not even exist.
 Quoting: Achduke7


There are a number of viewpoints from various folks about Daniel 9:27.

Most would take the opinion that 'He' is the antichrist.

I lean towards Messiah being the 'He' in the first half of verse 27 and antichrist probably being the desolator in the second half of verse 27.

We shall see .. remain on watch!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


The word he is not in the original Hebrew. Check strings.
 Quoting: Achduke7


10-4

Thanks again!
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 22255432
United States
01/12/2023 10:27 PM
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Re: Rapture^
...

The fact of the matter is people like yourself in this thread and others have made this a religious doctrine in itself when scripture is very clear on God's promise to remove His bride. People or I should say the devil has worked overtime and has made this such a complicated issue with semantic arguments by confusing simple words like tribulation for example. People use this word describing the 7-year Tribulation, others get specific and claim tribulation only denotes the first 3 1/2 years of the 7-year tribulation, both are correct. Paul himself said He shouldn't even have to write to us regarding this promise as we will all know the season we're in (1 Thessolonians 5:5) and the scripture is very clear on who will be removed and what will take place after the bride of Christ is removed.

People have misconstrued God's word and torn down God's promise to His people at the end of the age by lies such as, for example, claiming the Rapture is an idea thought up in the 1800s by Darby and McDonald which is laughable (as the term has been echoed and prophesied for thousands of years and is in the Old Testament) and yet another attempt to foil God's promise and dash people's hope making them complacent.

It's sickening to witness this thread in some instances being a perfect example.


There are two Resurrections-

The Wedding Supper of the Lamb in Heaven takes place after the Rapture during the 7-year Tribulation and the Wedding is for Jesus and His followers who are alive on earth (at the time of the Rapture) who are taken up along with those who have died in Christ in the past (who will come with Jesus in the clouds) to be reunited with their bodies to put on the incorruptible and don new heavenly bodies (1 Thessaloninans 4:16-17). These will be the people who attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven with Christ and this takes place during the 7-year Tribulation.

Those who are left behind and have to endure the 7-year Tribulation and lose their lives but are saved because of faith will have to wait until they too are resurrected but will not experience the Marriage Supper with Christ (Revelation 6:9). These martyrs of the 7-year Tribulation are told to wait a little longer until their brothers and sisters are also killed for their testimony so they too can be resurrected in Christ's second coming (Revelation 6:11, 20:4).




"The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “first fruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There will be the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 20:4).

Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).

What great rejoicing will attend the first resurrection! What great anguish at the second! What a responsibility we have to share the Gospel! “And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 23).

[link to www.gotquestions.org (secure)]
 Quoting: Seek^


The resurrection is not a religious doctrine. This is clearly defined in the bible. Christ and others mentioned it dozens of times. What they did not mention is the rapture. You know why? Because it is not the rapture. It was called the harpazo which is part of the resurrection. I understand that rapture is a Latin word that flowed to English but the original Greek was harpazo and rapture no longer means catch away to the clouds but has now become a full fledged doctrine and even includes movies just to define that one word. In all actuality the whole rapture doctrine is the resurrection that Christ talked about.

There are only two more resurrections. The first resurrection is when the just are going which includes those that are in the tribulation. How do we know this?

Read Revelation 20:4-6. This is the 1st resurrection and tribulation saints are part of this resurrection. How do we know they are tribulation saints? Because they did not take the mark or worship the beast which happens during the tribulation.

And the 1st resurrection does not happen in phases. It happens in the twink of an eye or instantly for everyone.

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 Quoting: Achduke7



Great synopsis.

Could not have said it better.

Spot on. Agree and Thank You!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


Hi AC432,

Here is some more info on Revelation, Wrath and the resurrection/harpazo event.

The key to Revelation is the woes and God's wrath. They are time stamps on how to organize Revelation. Revelation jumps around a bit and tells the same things from different viewpoints and symbology. Also the word "Alas" is also the same word origin as woe. You can also follow the earthquake. The Earthquake of Rev 6:12 is the same quake as Rev 11:13. There seems to always be a Earthquake around the time of resurrection as it happened during Christ and also when the 2 Witnesses are resurrected.

Revelation 6:12 corresponds with Matthew 24:29.

The wrath of God which is after the 2nd woe is shown in Rev 6 and in Rev 11.



Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
 Quoting: Achduke7



I believe we have lost our Pre-Trib Rapture friends.

Come back and discuss ... MUCH to learn here.
Anonymous Coward
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01/12/2023 10:40 PM
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Re: Rapture^
...


Solid and Spot On.



...


Now here is where it gets interesting and I applaud you for taking this one on.

Because some of the things Daniel details were fulfilled in Christ's earthly ministry of 3.5 years, we can conclude that half of Daniel's 70th Week has been ticked down.
3.5 years remain on God's time piece.



...


The antichrist confirms a 7 year covenant
[Interesting .. 7 years like Daniel's 70th Week .. a counterfeit covenant]

However, the antichrist does not control God's time piece.
Only God controls His clock and 3.5 years have already run out.

God's time piece again starts when the antichrist declares himself god and demands worship.

OP, this is why we are adament about tribulation vs God's Wrath.
So very many believe we have 7 years of tribulation, when it will be 3.5 years of Great Tribulation.

Nice post Achduke7

Thank you for your contribution!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


Where do you see the antichrist confirming any covenant? Looking at the most most common place in 9:27 the word "he" does not even exist.
 Quoting: Achduke7


There are a number of viewpoints from various folks about Daniel 9:27.

Most would take the opinion that 'He' is the antichrist.

I lean towards Messiah being the 'He' in the first half of verse 27 and antichrist probably being the desolator in the second half of verse 27.

We shall see .. remain on watch!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


The word he is not in the original Hebrew. Check strings.
 Quoting: Achduke7



A Revelation rough timeline that may prove useful to you:

Revelation 1 - Happened in the 90s AD
Revelation 2/3 - From the writing of Revelation to Eternity future
Revelation 4/5 - Unknown future date
Revelation 6 thru 10 - beginning to end of 70th week
Revelation 11 - middle of 70th week to 30 days past the 70th week
Revelation 12 - Eternity past to End of 70th week
Revelation 13 - middle of 70th week to 30 days past 70th week
Revelation 14 thru 19 - happens in 30 days (God's Wrath)
Revelation 20 - 1,000 years after the 70th week
Revelation 21/22 - Eternity future
Mdc61170

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01/12/2023 10:53 PM
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Re: Rapture^
...


The resurrection is not a religious doctrine. This is clearly defined in the bible. Christ and others mentioned it dozens of times. What they did not mention is the rapture. You know why? Because it is not the rapture. It was called the harpazo which is part of the resurrection. I understand that rapture is a Latin word that flowed to English but the original Greek was harpazo and rapture no longer means catch away to the clouds but has now become a full fledged doctrine and even includes movies just to define that one word. In all actuality the whole rapture doctrine is the resurrection that Christ talked about.

There are only two more resurrections. The first resurrection is when the just are going which includes those that are in the tribulation. How do we know this?

Read Revelation 20:4-6. This is the 1st resurrection and tribulation saints are part of this resurrection. How do we know they are tribulation saints? Because they did not take the mark or worship the beast which happens during the tribulation.

And the 1st resurrection does not happen in phases. It happens in the twink of an eye or instantly for everyone.

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 Quoting: Achduke7



Great synopsis.

Could not have said it better.

Spot on. Agree and Thank You!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


Hi AC432,

Here is some more info on Revelation, Wrath and the resurrection/harpazo event.

The key to Revelation is the woes and God's wrath. They are time stamps on how to organize Revelation. Revelation jumps around a bit and tells the same things from different viewpoints and symbology. Also the word "Alas" is also the same word origin as woe. You can also follow the earthquake. The Earthquake of Rev 6:12 is the same quake as Rev 11:13. There seems to always be a Earthquake around the time of resurrection as it happened during Christ and also when the 2 Witnesses are resurrected.

Revelation 6:12 corresponds with Matthew 24:29.

The wrath of God which is after the 2nd woe is shown in Rev 6 and in Rev 11.



Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
 Quoting: Achduke7



I believe we have lost our Pre-Trib Rapture friends.

Come back and discuss ... MUCH to learn here.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


We don't need to discuss nothing. We actually beleive
what the Bible says. Pre Trib is truth.
The bride is gone before the Tribulation.
It's pretty simple.
Two roofs over my head
Crichton clan-God.Send.Grace

Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15)
Achduke7

User ID: 84682233
United States
01/12/2023 11:18 PM

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Great synopsis.

Could not have said it better.

Spot on. Agree and Thank You!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


Hi AC432,

Here is some more info on Revelation, Wrath and the resurrection/harpazo event.

The key to Revelation is the woes and God's wrath. They are time stamps on how to organize Revelation. Revelation jumps around a bit and tells the same things from different viewpoints and symbology. Also the word "Alas" is also the same word origin as woe. You can also follow the earthquake. The Earthquake of Rev 6:12 is the same quake as Rev 11:13. There seems to always be a Earthquake around the time of resurrection as it happened during Christ and also when the 2 Witnesses are resurrected.

Revelation 6:12 corresponds with Matthew 24:29.

The wrath of God which is after the 2nd woe is shown in Rev 6 and in Rev 11.



Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
 Quoting: Achduke7



I believe we have lost our Pre-Trib Rapture friends.

Come back and discuss ... MUCH to learn here.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


We don't need to discuss nothing. We actually beleive
what the Bible says. Pre Trib is truth.
The bride is gone before the Tribulation.
It's pretty simple.
 Quoting: Mdc61170


Where does it say the Bride is gone? If you believe the Bible you should be able to point the verses that say this.
Achduke
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 22255432
United States
01/13/2023 12:11 AM
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Re: Rapture^
...



Great synopsis.

Could not have said it better.

Spot on. Agree and Thank You!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


Hi AC432,

Here is some more info on Revelation, Wrath and the resurrection/harpazo event.

The key to Revelation is the woes and God's wrath. They are time stamps on how to organize Revelation. Revelation jumps around a bit and tells the same things from different viewpoints and symbology. Also the word "Alas" is also the same word origin as woe. You can also follow the earthquake. The Earthquake of Rev 6:12 is the same quake as Rev 11:13. There seems to always be a Earthquake around the time of resurrection as it happened during Christ and also when the 2 Witnesses are resurrected.

Revelation 6:12 corresponds with Matthew 24:29.

The wrath of God which is after the 2nd woe is shown in Rev 6 and in Rev 11.



Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
 Quoting: Achduke7



I believe we have lost our Pre-Trib Rapture friends.

Come back and discuss ... MUCH to learn here.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 22255432


We don't need to discuss nothing. We actually beleive
what the Bible says. Pre Trib is truth.
The bride is gone before the Tribulation.
It's pretty simple.
 Quoting: Mdc61170



Your statement would be hilarious, if it were not so tragic.

If your position is true and unassailable, then you should not fear discussing the reasons and scriptures that support it.

Corrie ten Boom would disagree that christians don't ever see tribulation.

Have you discovered those scriptures which prove the Bride is gone before tribulation yet??
Seek^  (OP)

User ID: 82692810
United States
01/13/2023 02:59 PM
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GLP