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Rapture^

 
Achduke7

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01/18/2023 02:23 PM

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Re: Rapture^
...it is post-trib.
 Quoting: Achduke7


At the Second Coming Return of Jesus Christ,

Jesus comes here to stay here.

So where do you think your Raptured get sent to?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85126522


During the resurrection they meet Christ in the clouds as he arrives.
Achduke
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01/18/2023 08:51 PM
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Re: Rapture^
The word "perished" below in the second verse also translates to vanish, this is the rapture and how life will be in the Tribulation for those left behind.

[link to biblehub.com (secure)]






Israel’s Great Misery

Woe is me! For I am like one gathering summer fruit at the gleaning of the vineyard; there is no cluster to eat, no early fig that I crave.

The godly man has perished from the earth; there is no one upright among men. They all lie in wait for blood; they hunt one another with a net. Both hands are skilled at evil; the prince and the judge demand a bribe. When the powerful utters his evil desire, they all conspire together. The best of them is like a brier; the most upright is sharper than a hedge of thorns. The day for your watchmen has come, the day of your visitation. Now is the time of their confusion.

Do not rely on a friend; do not trust in a companion. Seal the doors of your mouth from her who lies in your arms. For a son dishonors his father, a daughter rises against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man’s enemies are the members of his own household.

Micah 6:1-6
 Quoting: Seek^



That is not Micah 6.

This is Micah 6:1-6

"Hear ye now what the LORD saith; Arise, contend thou before the mountains, and let the hills hear thy voice. Hear ye, O mountains, the LORD'S controversy, and ye strong foundations of the earth: for the LORD hath a controversy with his people, and he will plead with Israel.
O my people, what have I done unto thee? and wherein have I wearied thee? testify against me. For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of servants; and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.
O my people, remember now what Balak king of Moab consulted, and what Balaam the son of Beor answered him from Shittim unto Gilgal; that ye may know the righteousness of the LORD.
Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?"


BTW - 'perished' is the word abad

98 times where abad is used it means 'perish'.
62 times where abad is used it means 'destroy'.
10 times where abad is used it means 'lose'

Perish, destroy, lose .. utterly broken, undone .. these are not 'Rapture' words.

As the soup Nazi would say, 'No proof for you'.
Anonymous Coward
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01/18/2023 09:04 PM
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Re: Rapture^
Revelation 20 describes a millennial kingdom, a 1,000-year literal period during which Jesus will reign from His throne in Jerusalem. Who will occupy this millennial kingdom?

In some cases, it is clear who will be with Jesus in this millennial kingdom. First Thessalonians 4:17 notes that believers in Jesus Christ who join Him during the rapture will be with Him forever. Therefore, every Christian from the time of Jesus on earth to the rapture will be in the millennial kingdom.

Second, there will be those who are resurrected after Christ returns to earth.
 Quoting: Seek^



So every christian from the time of Jesus to the Rapture?
The dead in Christ are resurrected and the living are raptured.

Then you say there is another resurrection?
A second resurrection?

I don't see that in scripture .. 2 resurrections of christians.
Achduke7

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01/19/2023 07:29 AM

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Re: Rapture^
Revelation 20 describes a millennial kingdom, a 1,000-year literal period during which Jesus will reign from His throne in Jerusalem. Who will occupy this millennial kingdom?

In some cases, it is clear who will be with Jesus in this millennial kingdom. First Thessalonians 4:17 notes that believers in Jesus Christ who join Him during the rapture will be with Him forever. Therefore, every Christian from the time of Jesus on earth to the rapture will be in the millennial kingdom.

Second, there will be those who are resurrected after Christ returns to earth.
 Quoting: Seek^



So every christian from the time of Jesus to the Rapture?
The dead in Christ are resurrected and the living are raptured.

Then you say there is another resurrection?
A second resurrection?

I don't see that in scripture .. 2 resurrections of christians.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78701318


The first rapture is in the undocumented resurrection.

The tribulation saints are in the 1st resurrection. There are so many in the first resurrection I do not know how many even left before them in the undocumented resurrection.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw]the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.This [is] the first resurrection.

Last Edited by Achduke7 on 01/19/2023 07:31 AM
Achduke
Judethz
Israel is Eternal

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01/19/2023 07:36 AM

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Re: Rapture^
During the resurrection they meet Christ in the clouds as he arrives.
 Quoting: Achduke7


german5 Really. Are we just supposed to take your word for that, or are you going to attempt to twist scripture again to support your lies?
Seek^  (OP)

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01/19/2023 07:43 AM
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Re: Rapture^
The word "perished" below in the second verse also translates to vanish, this is the rapture and how life will be in the Tribulation for those left behind.

[link to biblehub.com (secure)]






Israel’s Great Misery

Woe is me! For I am like one gathering summer fruit at the gleaning of the vineyard; there is no cluster to eat, no early fig that I crave.

The godly man has perished from the earth; there is no one upright among men. They all lie in wait for blood; they hunt one another with a net. Both hands are skilled at evil; the prince and the judge demand a bribe. When the powerful utters his evil desire, they all conspire together. The best of them is like a brier; the most upright is sharper than a hedge of thorns. The day for your watchmen has come, the day of your visitation. Now is the time of their confusion.

Do not rely on a friend; do not trust in a companion. Seal the doors of your mouth from her who lies in your arms. For a son dishonors his father, a daughter rises against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man’s enemies are the members of his own household.

Micah 6:1-6
 Quoting: Seek^



That is not Micah 6.

This is Micah 6:1-6

"Hear ye now what the LORD saith; Arise, contend thou before the mountains, and let the hills hear thy voice. Hear ye, O mountains, the LORD'S controversy, and ye strong foundations of the earth: for the LORD hath a controversy with his people, and he will plead with Israel.
O my people, what have I done unto thee? and wherein have I wearied thee? testify against me. For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of servants; and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.
O my people, remember now what Balak king of Moab consulted, and what Balaam the son of Beor answered him from Shittim unto Gilgal; that ye may know the righteousness of the LORD.
Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?"


BTW - 'perished' is the word abad

98 times where abad is used it means 'perish'.
62 times where abad is used it means 'destroy'.
10 times where abad is used it means 'lose'

Perish, destroy, lose .. utterly broken, undone .. these are not 'Rapture' words.

As the soup Nazi would say, 'No proof for you'.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78701318

Strong's Concordance
abad: to perish
Original Word: אָבַד
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: abad
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-bad')
Definition: to perish
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to perish

annihilate (2), annihilated (1), been lost (1), broken (1), corrupts (1), destroy (33), destroyed (15), destroying (2), destroys (2), destruction (2), dying (2), fail (1), fails (1), give up as lost (1), lacking (1), lost (12), make vanish (1), makes to perish (1), no (2), obliterate (1), perish (61), perished (16), perishes (7), perishing (2), ruined (4), surely perish (3), take (1), utterly destroy (1), wandering (1), wastes (1), wiped (1).
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 78701318
01/19/2023 08:52 AM
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Re: Rapture^
The word "perished" below in the second verse also translates to vanish, this is the rapture and how life will be in the Tribulation for those left behind.

[link to biblehub.com (secure)]






Israel’s Great Misery

Woe is me! For I am like one gathering summer fruit at the gleaning of the vineyard; there is no cluster to eat, no early fig that I crave.

The godly man has perished from the earth; there is no one upright among men. They all lie in wait for blood; they hunt one another with a net. Both hands are skilled at evil; the prince and the judge demand a bribe. When the powerful utters his evil desire, they all conspire together. The best of them is like a brier; the most upright is sharper than a hedge of thorns. The day for your watchmen has come, the day of your visitation. Now is the time of their confusion.

Do not rely on a friend; do not trust in a companion. Seal the doors of your mouth from her who lies in your arms. For a son dishonors his father, a daughter rises against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. A man’s enemies are the members of his own household.

Micah 6:1-6
 Quoting: Seek^



That is not Micah 6.

This is Micah 6:1-6

"Hear ye now what the LORD saith; Arise, contend thou before the mountains, and let the hills hear thy voice. Hear ye, O mountains, the LORD'S controversy, and ye strong foundations of the earth: for the LORD hath a controversy with his people, and he will plead with Israel.
O my people, what have I done unto thee? and wherein have I wearied thee? testify against me. For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of servants; and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.
O my people, remember now what Balak king of Moab consulted, and what Balaam the son of Beor answered him from Shittim unto Gilgal; that ye may know the righteousness of the LORD.
Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?"


BTW - 'perished' is the word abad

98 times where abad is used it means 'perish'.
62 times where abad is used it means 'destroy'.
10 times where abad is used it means 'lose'

Perish, destroy, lose .. utterly broken, undone .. these are not 'Rapture' words.

As the soup Nazi would say, 'No proof for you'.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78701318

Strong's Concordance
abad: to perish
Original Word: אָבַד
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: abad
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-bad')
Definition: to perish
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
to perish

annihilate (2), annihilated (1), been lost (1), broken (1), corrupts (1), destroy (33), destroyed (15), destroying (2), destroys (2), destruction (2), dying (2), fail (1), fails (1), give up as lost (1), lacking (1), lost (12), make vanish (1), makes to perish (1), no (2), obliterate (1), perish (61), perished (16), perishes (7), perishing (2), ruined (4), surely perish (3), take (1), utterly destroy (1), wandering (1), wastes (1), wiped (1).
 Quoting: Seek^


ONE very questionable instance? LOL
Talk about majoring on minors ... HUGE fail.

Abad
KJV Translation Count — Total: 184x

The KJV translates Strong's H6 in the following manner: perish (98x), destroy (62x), lose (10x), fail (2x), surely (2x), utterly (2x), broken (1x), destruction (1x), escape (1x), flee (1x), spendeth (1x), take (1x), undone (1x), void (1x).

אָבַד ʼâbad, aw-bad'; a primitive root; properly, to wander away, i.e. lose oneself; by implication to perish (causative, destroy):—break, destroy(-uction), not escape, fail, lose, (cause to, make) perish, spend, × and surely, take, be undone, × utterly, be void of, have no way to flee.


Again, not a 'rapture' word
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2023 08:54 AM
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Re: Rapture^
During the resurrection they meet Christ in the clouds as he arrives.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Really. Are we just supposed to take your word for that, or are you going to attempt to twist scripture again to support your lies?
 Quoting: Judethz



"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."


Is that scripture twisted?
Is that scripture a lie?

Do you even KNOW scripture??
Seek^  (OP)

User ID: 84855065
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01/19/2023 09:52 AM
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Re: Rapture^
What people are hung up on is the fact that there are different time periods that the First Resurrection occurs. This is lost on so many and the cause of great confusion.

All Old Testament Saints, all who've died in Christ since His finished work on the cross, and all who are alive when the pre-tribulation Rapture occurs are all a part of the First Resurrection and will celebrate and take part in the Wedding Feast of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which will occur in Heaven during the 7-year Tribulation on earth. What makes the pre-tribulation Rapture extremely unique is the people alive who are taken will never experience death in any form whatsoever and is why the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:55, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?". These people taken in the pre-tribulation Rapture to celebrate in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb will in fact never experience death.

Those left behind who turn to Christ and die that are saved during the 7-year Tribulation will be given white robes and are told to remain under the altar until the rest of their brothers and sisters are killed during the allotted time frame of the 7-year Tribulation (Rev. 6:11). These are referred to as Tribulation Saints. These dead Tribulation Saints are told to wait because there will be a post-tribulation Rapture of these Saints who died during the Tribulation and they too will also receive their glorified bodies and will reign with Christ during His millennial reign-


Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished.)

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4-5



These Tribulation Saints are also considered a part of the First Resurrection.



Those physically alive during Christ's Second Coming to earth where He steps foot on the Mt of Olives in judgment who are saved will enter into Christ's millennial reign on earth in earthly bodies, not glorified bodies and their offspring will populate Christ's millennial Kingdom. When these people die in Christ's millennial reign, they too will be a part of the First Resurrection because they are saved and have their inheritance of eternal life in Christ.


The Second Resurrection however is a singular event that takes place at the end of Christ's millennial reign where all of the unsaved dead in the history of mankind who are all waiting in hell are resurrected and stand before Jesus Christ and are judged individually for each of their sins and because they do not have Jesus' righteous covering for their sins, they are judged according to the Law by their works and they along with Satan, the fallen angels, and hell and death itself will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Afterward, God creates a New Earth which will resemble the Garden of Eden but better and the Heavens and the New Jerusalem which is God's throne will descend down upon the New Earth and the Father will reign supreme with His family on earth.

The Bible ends there.


Accept Jesus today and give your life to Him as you're not promised your next breath.

Last Edited by Seek^ on 01/19/2023 10:03 AM
Achduke7

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01/19/2023 10:47 AM

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Re: Rapture^
During the resurrection they meet Christ in the clouds as he arrives.
 Quoting: Achduke7


Really. Are we just supposed to take your word for that, or are you going to attempt to twist scripture again to support your lies?
 Quoting: Judethz



"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."


Is that scripture twisted?
Is that scripture a lie?

Do you even KNOW scripture??
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78701318


That is a normalcy bias because they do not see scripture that does not fit their ideas of a pre-trib rapture.
Achduke
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01/19/2023 10:50 AM
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Re: Rapture^
That is a normalcy bias because they do not see scripture that does not fit their ideas of a pre-trib rapture.
 Quoting: Achduke7


That is a normalcy bias because they do not see scripture that does not fit their ideas of a post-trib rapture.
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2023 10:50 AM
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Re: Rapture^
They.

Them..

Always...
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2023 10:51 AM
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Re: Rapture^
Never

ever

me

.
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2023 10:52 AM
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Re: Rapture^
Why should Jesus count you worthy?

hmm
Achduke7

User ID: 84682233
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01/19/2023 10:52 AM

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Re: Rapture^
What people are hung up on is the fact that there are different time periods that the First Resurrection occurs. This is lost on so many and the cause of great confusion.

All Old Testament Saints, all who've died in Christ since His finished work on the cross, and all who are alive when the pre-tribulation Rapture occurs are all a part of the First Resurrection and will celebrate and take part in the Wedding Feast of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which will occur in Heaven during the 7-year Tribulation on earth. What makes the pre-tribulation Rapture extremely unique is the people alive who are taken will never experience death in any form whatsoever and is why the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:55, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?". These people taken in the pre-tribulation Rapture to celebrate in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb will in fact never experience death.

Those left behind who turn to Christ and die that are saved during the 7-year Tribulation will be given white robes and are told to remain under the altar until the rest of their brothers and sisters are killed during the allotted time frame of the 7-year Tribulation (Rev. 6:11). These are referred to as Tribulation Saints. These dead Tribulation Saints are told to wait because there will be a post-tribulation Rapture of these Saints who died during the Tribulation and they too will also receive their glorified bodies and will reign with Christ during His millennial reign-


Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished.)

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4-5



These Tribulation Saints are also considered a part of the First Resurrection.



Those physically alive during Christ's Second Coming to earth where He steps foot on the Mt of Olives in judgment who are saved will enter into Christ's millennial reign on earth in earthly bodies, not glorified bodies and their offspring will populate Christ's millennial Kingdom. When these people die in Christ's millennial reign, they too will be a part of the First Resurrection because they are saved and have their inheritance of eternal life in Christ.


The Second Resurrection however is a singular event that takes place at the end of Christ's millennial reign where all of the unsaved dead in the history of mankind who are all waiting in hell are resurrected and stand before Jesus Christ and are judged individually for each of their sins and because they do not have Jesus' righteous covering for their sins, they are judged according to the Law by their works and they along with Satan, the fallen angels, and hell and death itself will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Afterward, God creates a New Earth which will resemble the Garden of Eden but better and the Heavens and the New Jerusalem which is God's throne will descend down upon the New Earth and the Father will reign supreme with His family on earth.

The Bible ends there.


Accept Jesus today and give your life to Him as you're not promised your next breath.
 Quoting: Seek^


The resurrection happens in an instant. You are really stretching and twisting verses to fit your view.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At least you accept the tribulation saints are part of the 1st resurrection as noted in Revelation 20:4-6. That is a first step.
Achduke
Achduke7

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01/19/2023 11:12 AM

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Re: Rapture^
What is the purpose of a pretribulation rapture?

We know the saints are resurrected and live with Christ forever more.

We know the 144K are pure yet still are resurrected and return with Christ.

So why this undocumented event?

By all accounts the dead in Christ which includes the saints and 144K go first. Then the living go.
Achduke
Seek^  (OP)

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01/19/2023 11:17 AM
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Re: Rapture^
What people are hung up on is the fact that there are different time periods that the First Resurrection occurs. This is lost on so many and the cause of great confusion.

All Old Testament Saints, all who've died in Christ since His finished work on the cross, and all who are alive when the pre-tribulation Rapture occurs are all a part of the First Resurrection and will celebrate and take part in the Wedding Feast of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which will occur in Heaven during the 7-year Tribulation on earth. What makes the pre-tribulation Rapture extremely unique is the people alive who are taken will never experience death in any form whatsoever and is why the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:55, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?". These people taken in the pre-tribulation Rapture to celebrate in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb will in fact never experience death.

Those left behind who turn to Christ and die that are saved during the 7-year Tribulation will be given white robes and are told to remain under the altar until the rest of their brothers and sisters are killed during the allotted time frame of the 7-year Tribulation (Rev. 6:11). These are referred to as Tribulation Saints. These dead Tribulation Saints are told to wait because there will be a post-tribulation Rapture of these Saints who died during the Tribulation and they too will also receive their glorified bodies and will reign with Christ during His millennial reign-


Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished.)

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4-5



These Tribulation Saints are also considered a part of the First Resurrection.



Those physically alive during Christ's Second Coming to earth where He steps foot on the Mt of Olives in judgment who are saved will enter into Christ's millennial reign on earth in earthly bodies, not glorified bodies and their offspring will populate Christ's millennial Kingdom. When these people die in Christ's millennial reign, they too will be a part of the First Resurrection because they are saved and have their inheritance of eternal life in Christ.


The Second Resurrection however is a singular event that takes place at the end of Christ's millennial reign where all of the unsaved dead in the history of mankind who are all waiting in hell are resurrected and stand before Jesus Christ and are judged individually for each of their sins and because they do not have Jesus' righteous covering for their sins, they are judged according to the Law by their works and they along with Satan, the fallen angels, and hell and death itself will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Afterward, God creates a New Earth which will resemble the Garden of Eden but better and the Heavens and the New Jerusalem which is God's throne will descend down upon the New Earth and the Father will reign supreme with His family on earth.

The Bible ends there.


Accept Jesus today and give your life to Him as you're not promised your next breath.
 Quoting: Seek^


The resurrection happens in an instant. You are really stretching and twisting verses to fit your view.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At least you accept the tribulation saints are part of the 1st resurrection as noted in Revelation 20:4-6. That is a first step.
 Quoting: Achduke7

Not stretching anything, you’re simply misinterpreting and misunderstanding the context of the scripture you referenced above. The twinkling of an eye is in regard to the pre-tribulation Rapture and the last trump, not trumpet as so many misinterpret. That “trump” is not a trumpet but is actually Jesus’ voice which sounds like a trumpet when He calls His church up on the Lord’s day.

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

Revelation 1:10-11






The church is mentioned 19 times in the first three chapters of Revelation. The very first verse after these chapters in Chapter 4 of Revelation is a foreshadowing of the pre-tribulation Rapture of the church and the church is therefore never mentioned again through the detailed description of the 7-year Tribulation which spans from Chapters 4-20. The reason for this is because the church isn’t on earth and is taking part in the Wedding celebration in Heaven during the 7-year Tribulation.

You will also notice that the title of Chapter 4 in Revelation is titled “The Throne Room” because this is exactly where those Raptured in the pre-tribulation Rapture will stand which is the Judgment Seat of Christ so they may receive their heavenly rewards for their time on earth and will be told to rest from their labors and enter Heaven.

The Throne Room of Heaven

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

Revelation 4:1

Last Edited by Seek^ on 01/19/2023 11:26 AM
Achduke7

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01/19/2023 11:29 AM

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Re: Rapture^
What people are hung up on is the fact that there are different time periods that the First Resurrection occurs. This is lost on so many and the cause of great confusion.

All Old Testament Saints, all who've died in Christ since His finished work on the cross, and all who are alive when the pre-tribulation Rapture occurs are all a part of the First Resurrection and will celebrate and take part in the Wedding Feast of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which will occur in Heaven during the 7-year Tribulation on earth. What makes the pre-tribulation Rapture extremely unique is the people alive who are taken will never experience death in any form whatsoever and is why the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:55, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?". These people taken in the pre-tribulation Rapture to celebrate in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb will in fact never experience death.

Those left behind who turn to Christ and die that are saved during the 7-year Tribulation will be given white robes and are told to remain under the altar until the rest of their brothers and sisters are killed during the allotted time frame of the 7-year Tribulation (Rev. 6:11). These are referred to as Tribulation Saints. These dead Tribulation Saints are told to wait because there will be a post-tribulation Rapture of these Saints who died during the Tribulation and they too will also receive their glorified bodies and will reign with Christ during His millennial reign-


Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished.)

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4-5



These Tribulation Saints are also considered a part of the First Resurrection.



Those physically alive during Christ's Second Coming to earth where He steps foot on the Mt of Olives in judgment who are saved will enter into Christ's millennial reign on earth in earthly bodies, not glorified bodies and their offspring will populate Christ's millennial Kingdom. When these people die in Christ's millennial reign, they too will be a part of the First Resurrection because they are saved and have their inheritance of eternal life in Christ.


The Second Resurrection however is a singular event that takes place at the end of Christ's millennial reign where all of the unsaved dead in the history of mankind who are all waiting in hell are resurrected and stand before Jesus Christ and are judged individually for each of their sins and because they do not have Jesus' righteous covering for their sins, they are judged according to the Law by their works and they along with Satan, the fallen angels, and hell and death itself will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Afterward, God creates a New Earth which will resemble the Garden of Eden but better and the Heavens and the New Jerusalem which is God's throne will descend down upon the New Earth and the Father will reign supreme with His family on earth.

The Bible ends there.


Accept Jesus today and give your life to Him as you're not promised your next breath.
 Quoting: Seek^


The resurrection happens in an instant. You are really stretching and twisting verses to fit your view.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At least you accept the tribulation saints are part of the 1st resurrection as noted in Revelation 20:4-6. That is a first step.
 Quoting: Achduke7

Not stretching anything, you’re simply misinterpreting and misunderstanding the context of the scripture you referenced above. The twinkling of an eye is in regard to the pre-tribulation Rapture and the last trump, not trumpet as so many misinterpret. That “trump” is not a trumpet but is actually Jesus’ voice which sounds like a trumpet when He calls His church up on the Lord’s day.

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

Revelation 1:10-11






The church is mentioned 19 times in the first three chapters of Revelation. The very first verse after these chapters in Chapter 4 of Revelation is a foreshadowing of the pre-tribulation Rapture of the church and the church is therefore never mentioned again through the detailed description of the 7-year Tribulation which spans from Chapters 4-20. The reason for this is because the church isn’t on earth and is taking part in the Wedding celebration in Heaven during the 7-year Tribulation.

You will also notice that the title of Chapter 4 in Revelation is titled “The Throne Room” because this is exactly where those Raptured in the pre-tribulation Rapture will stand which is the Judgment Seat of Christ so they may receive their heavenly rewards for their time on earth and will be told to rest from their labors and enter Heaven.

The Throne Room of Heaven

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

Revelation 4:1
 Quoting: Seek^


The whole of Revelation was to the churches.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
Achduke
Seek^  (OP)

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01/19/2023 12:30 PM
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Re: Rapture^
What people are hung up on is the fact that there are different time periods that the First Resurrection occurs. This is lost on so many and the cause of great confusion.

All Old Testament Saints, all who've died in Christ since His finished work on the cross, and all who are alive when the pre-tribulation Rapture occurs are all a part of the First Resurrection and will celebrate and take part in the Wedding Feast of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb which will occur in Heaven during the 7-year Tribulation on earth. What makes the pre-tribulation Rapture extremely unique is the people alive who are taken will never experience death in any form whatsoever and is why the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:55, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?". These people taken in the pre-tribulation Rapture to celebrate in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb will in fact never experience death.

Those left behind who turn to Christ and die that are saved during the 7-year Tribulation will be given white robes and are told to remain under the altar until the rest of their brothers and sisters are killed during the allotted time frame of the 7-year Tribulation (Rev. 6:11). These are referred to as Tribulation Saints. These dead Tribulation Saints are told to wait because there will be a post-tribulation Rapture of these Saints who died during the Tribulation and they too will also receive their glorified bodies and will reign with Christ during His millennial reign-


Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished.)

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4-5



These Tribulation Saints are also considered a part of the First Resurrection.



Those physically alive during Christ's Second Coming to earth where He steps foot on the Mt of Olives in judgment who are saved will enter into Christ's millennial reign on earth in earthly bodies, not glorified bodies and their offspring will populate Christ's millennial Kingdom. When these people die in Christ's millennial reign, they too will be a part of the First Resurrection because they are saved and have their inheritance of eternal life in Christ.


The Second Resurrection however is a singular event that takes place at the end of Christ's millennial reign where all of the unsaved dead in the history of mankind who are all waiting in hell are resurrected and stand before Jesus Christ and are judged individually for each of their sins and because they do not have Jesus' righteous covering for their sins, they are judged according to the Law by their works and they along with Satan, the fallen angels, and hell and death itself will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Afterward, God creates a New Earth which will resemble the Garden of Eden but better and the Heavens and the New Jerusalem which is God's throne will descend down upon the New Earth and the Father will reign supreme with His family on earth.

The Bible ends there.


Accept Jesus today and give your life to Him as you're not promised your next breath.
 Quoting: Seek^


The resurrection happens in an instant. You are really stretching and twisting verses to fit your view.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At least you accept the tribulation saints are part of the 1st resurrection as noted in Revelation 20:4-6. That is a first step.
 Quoting: Achduke7

Not stretching anything, you’re simply misinterpreting and misunderstanding the context of the scripture you referenced above. The twinkling of an eye is in regard to the pre-tribulation Rapture and the last trump, not trumpet as so many misinterpret. That “trump” is not a trumpet but is actually Jesus’ voice which sounds like a trumpet when He calls His church up on the Lord’s day.

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

Revelation 1:10-11






The church is mentioned 19 times in the first three chapters of Revelation. The very first verse after these chapters in Chapter 4 of Revelation is a foreshadowing of the pre-tribulation Rapture of the church and the church is therefore never mentioned again through the detailed description of the 7-year Tribulation which spans from Chapters 4-20. The reason for this is because the church isn’t on earth and is taking part in the Wedding celebration in Heaven during the 7-year Tribulation.

You will also notice that the title of Chapter 4 in Revelation is titled “The Throne Room” because this is exactly where those Raptured in the pre-tribulation Rapture will stand which is the Judgment Seat of Christ so they may receive their heavenly rewards for their time on earth and will be told to rest from their labors and enter Heaven.

The Throne Room of Heaven

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

Revelation 4:1
 Quoting: Seek^


The whole of Revelation was to the churches.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
 Quoting: Achduke7

Revelation was given by God to John of Patmos for the churches and also for everyone as encouragement and also a warning but you’re yet again not acknowledging context with your referenced scripture above. Your point?

Rev 22:16 above doesn’t fall within Chapters 4-20 in Revelation where the 7-year Tribulation is explained in detail and where the church is glaringly absent and Rev 22:16 is in no way, shape, or form implying the church enduring the 7-year Tribulation. Context is clearly lost on you.

Last Edited by Seek^ on 01/19/2023 12:31 PM
Achduke7

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01/19/2023 01:33 PM

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Re: Rapture^
...


The resurrection happens in an instant. You are really stretching and twisting verses to fit your view.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At least you accept the tribulation saints are part of the 1st resurrection as noted in Revelation 20:4-6. That is a first step.
 Quoting: Achduke7

Not stretching anything, you’re simply misinterpreting and misunderstanding the context of the scripture you referenced above. The twinkling of an eye is in regard to the pre-tribulation Rapture and the last trump, not trumpet as so many misinterpret. That “trump” is not a trumpet but is actually Jesus’ voice which sounds like a trumpet when He calls His church up on the Lord’s day.

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

Revelation 1:10-11






The church is mentioned 19 times in the first three chapters of Revelation. The very first verse after these chapters in Chapter 4 of Revelation is a foreshadowing of the pre-tribulation Rapture of the church and the church is therefore never mentioned again through the detailed description of the 7-year Tribulation which spans from Chapters 4-20. The reason for this is because the church isn’t on earth and is taking part in the Wedding celebration in Heaven during the 7-year Tribulation.

You will also notice that the title of Chapter 4 in Revelation is titled “The Throne Room” because this is exactly where those Raptured in the pre-tribulation Rapture will stand which is the Judgment Seat of Christ so they may receive their heavenly rewards for their time on earth and will be told to rest from their labors and enter Heaven.

The Throne Room of Heaven

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

Revelation 4:1
 Quoting: Seek^


The whole of Revelation was to the churches.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
 Quoting: Achduke7

Revelation was given by God to John of Patmos for the churches and also for everyone as encouragement and also a warning but you’re yet again not acknowledging context with your referenced scripture above. Your point?

Rev 22:16 above doesn’t fall within Chapters 4-20 in Revelation where the 7-year Tribulation is explained in detail and where the church is glaringly absent and Rev 22:16 is in no way, shape, or form implying the church enduring the 7-year Tribulation. Context is clearly lost on you.
 Quoting: Seek^


Your confusion is separating Israel and the saints from the church. Also where is a 7 year tribulation defined in Revelation? I only see 3.5 years or forty two months.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.
Achduke
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01/19/2023 01:44 PM
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Re: Rapture^
What is the purpose of a pretribulation rapture?

We know the saints are resurrected and live with Christ forever more.

We know the 144K are pure yet still are resurrected and return with Christ.

So why this undocumented event?

By all accounts the dead in Christ which includes the saints and 144K go first. Then the living go.
 Quoting: Achduke7


The 144,000 JWES do not return with Jesus Christ.

However you claim to know this, it is not from Scripture.

You have no place for Jwes in your eschatology
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2023 01:45 PM
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Re: Rapture^
The confusion is yours.
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2023 01:46 PM
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Re: Rapture^
Why should Jesus count you worthy?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85128008



Because I survived the Great Tribulation and did not lose faith.

Because I did not believe the lie of a Rapture before anything 'gets bad'.

Because I have kept the word of His Patience, He will keep me from the hour of temptation.

Because I have shown His love in deeds and in truth.



What makes YOU worthy? Hmmmmmmm
Achduke7

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01/19/2023 01:47 PM

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Re: Rapture^
What is the purpose of a pretribulation rapture?

We know the saints are resurrected and live with Christ forever more.

We know the 144K are pure yet still are resurrected and return with Christ.

So why this undocumented event?

By all accounts the dead in Christ which includes the saints and 144K go first. Then the living go.
 Quoting: Achduke7


The 144,000 JWES do not return with Jesus Christ.

However you claim to know this, it is not from Scripture.

You have no place for Jwes in your eschatology
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75431352


Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Weird nothing about the pre-trib church. Just the 144K.

Last Edited by Achduke7 on 01/19/2023 01:49 PM
Achduke
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01/19/2023 02:35 PM
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Re: Rapture^
What is the purpose of a pretribulation rapture?

We know the saints are resurrected and live with Christ forever more.

We know the 144K are pure yet still are resurrected and return with Christ.

So why this undocumented event?

By all accounts the dead in Christ which includes the saints and 144K go first. Then the living go.
 Quoting: Achduke7


The 144,000 JWES do not return with Jesus Christ.

However you claim to know this, it is not from Scripture.

You have no place for Jwes in your eschatology
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75431352


Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Weird nothing about the pre-trib church. Just the 144K.
 Quoting: Achduke7



Their theology is a mishmash of peoples and resurrections.

Yes plural .. they will fit as many resurrections in there as they need to buttress their illegitimate claim to a Pre-Tribulation rapture.

They literally make it up as they go ... even Hal Lindsey would not recognize the Pre-Trib theology today.

Where you show them their errors in scripture, they just make up another resurrection, tribulation, rapture, etc. to fit their twisted theology.

They disrespect scripture by placing tribulations, raptures and resurrections where they ought not be.

Where all else fails, they just say, 'tribulation saints'.

I know this because I was a good pre-tribulation rapture believer in the Southern Baptist Church.

Until I actually studied the bible seriously after a divorce.

I found errors too numerous to count with a pre-trib rapture.

That's when first I found Grace (in a legalistic church), then the Pre-Wrath Rapture.


The bottom line is this - These pre-tribulationists are NOT students of the Bible. They think they are, but they are not.

They approach the Word with a pre-conceived idea that they attempt to fit into the biblical narrative.

They are students of different authors like Lindsey, LaHaye,
Walvoord, McGee, Swindoll, Piper, McArthur, ad nauseum.


I've heard everything from these deceivers ....
from the 144,000 are destined for hell to the Resurrection is not really the resurrection and tribulation is not tribulation.

Nuttier than almost any cultist I encounter, for at least the cultist will look up the scripture and acknowledge it as such.
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Re: Rapture^
Why should Jesus count you worthy?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85128008



Because I survived the Great Tribulation and did not lose faith.

Because I did not believe the lie of a Rapture before anything 'gets bad'.

Because I have kept the word of His Patience, He will keep me from the hour of temptation.

Because I have shown His love in deeds and in truth.



What makes YOU worthy? Hmmmmmmm
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 78701318



Are you 'worthy' because you pussed out in a pre-tribulation 'rapture'? I think NOT.

You should familiarize yourself with saints like Corrie ten Boom and Watchman Nee if you want to see what tribulation the saints actually endure.


"Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods." Matthew 24:45-47
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Re: Rapture^
Why should Jesus count you worthy?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 85128008




You want worthy???

You ought to read 'Foxe's Book of Martyrs' to see that the church has been in tribulation for vast portions of it's history.

These tribulations did not crush the church, rather, the church flourished in tribulation.

Now this is another issue with pre-trib.

If all believers are raptured before tribulation, how are there a vast, innumerable number of believers before the throne at the 6th Seal?

Who preached Jesus to them? How did they know how to be Born Again? If the Holy Spirit is removed, they are not truly Born Again saints. If there are 'tribulation saints', why is God pouring out His Wrath upon them?

I could stack 100s of questions like that, and the answer is NOT in pre-tribulation rapture.
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Re: Rapture^
The confusion is yours.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75431352



Now THAT ^^^^^^^^^ is debate for a pre-Tribulationalist.
[Keeping track of numerous raptures, resurrections and tribulations must be confusing for them]


If a more intrepid and inspired pre-tribulationalist posts scripture, they never let it speak for itself.

They ALWAYS pour their meaning and lack of understanding into the scripture.

LET GOD'S WORD SPEAK FOR ITSELF.
TAKE GOD AT HIS WORD. (that is called 'Faith' by the way]
Seek^  (OP)

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Re: Rapture^
Your confusion is separating Israel and the saints from the church. Also where is a 7 year tribulation defined in Revelation? I only see 3.5 years or forty two months.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.
 Quoting: Achduke7

Your confusion is not realizing that those who are left behind and are forced to go through the 7-year Tribulation are not the church as Christ’s body/church is taken pre-tribulation in the Rapture and their removal starts the 7-year Tribulation itself.

Your confusion stems from claiming the church are those of Israel who by definition excludes them from His body of believers as they already deny Jesus as their Savior. The entire point of the Tribulation is for God’s chosen throughout the Bible to finally turn to Jesus and is why the Tribulation is centered around these people and why Christ’s bride is never mentioned in Chapters 4-20 of Revelation when these events of the Tribulation are described.

The denial of God’s son who is the only one who can save their soul as God’s wrath remains on them for their unbelief (John 3:36) for these people is the entire point of the Tribulation. Unbelievers not of God’s chosen who enter into the 7-year Tribulation and later through faith in Christ become saved and die are included as Tribulation Saints as well and had they believed before the Tribulation began, they would have been spared and been Harpazo’d.

The 7-year Tribulation is the last week of Daniel’s 70th prophecy. The first 3.5 years of the 7-year Tribulation is when the restrainer is removed and the man of lawlessness is revealed upon the world stage immediately after the pre-Tribulation Rapture where he ushers in a false peace (1 Thes 5:13) and those left “shall not escape” and are forced to endure the 7-year Tribulation as I’ve explained multiple times throughout this thread.

The 3.5 years you’re referencing above is the last 3.5 years of the 7-year Tribulation that I’ve already explained multiple times in this thread where Satan is cast out of Heaven permanently and assumes bodily control of his Anti-Christ puppet and forces the mark and all to worship him and those who oppose are hunted and killed.

Last Edited by Seek^ on 01/19/2023 03:35 PM
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Re: Rapture^
Your confusion is separating Israel and the saints from the church. Also where is a 7 year tribulation defined in Revelation? I only see 3.5 years or forty two months.

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.
 Quoting: Achduke7

Your confusion is not realizing that those who are left behind and are forced to go through the 7-year Tribulation are not the church as Christ’s body/church is taken pre-tribulation in the Rapture and their removal starts the 7-year Tribulation itself.
 Quoting: Seek^



Then who are these 'tribulation saints', as you put it:

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands ...

And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

These are not the church? Then who are they?

[Wait for it ... he's going to say 'tribulation saints', like they always do]

How are they in Heaven without the Holy Spirit indwelling them if they are not the church and the Holy Spirit has been removed from the earth?





GLP