Playstation 2 component incites African war; console war reached into the Congo | |
Evil Twin
User ID: 473264 United States 07/25/2008 09:32 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Redheaded Stepchild
(OP) User ID: 461218 United States 07/25/2008 09:46 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Well, I have a PS2, but I don't feel as guilty as say, the Rwandan warlords that used the child labor to line their own pockets should. Quoting: Evil TwinET: I doubt they feel the least guilty. After all, they are watching their own bottom line. I don't have a PS2. There's an old X-Box on the bookcase, but that was donated to us when someone upgraded their own system. I do have a computer that has a strong level of planned obsolescence. In my self-absorbed fog I never once paid the least attention to what the real cost was for the computer, and for the ones I'll buy in the future...when this one quits. The point is to shed a little light on the human cost modern consumerism requires. "Until you are willing to organize your friends and neighbors and literally shut down cities - drive at 5mph through the streets of major cities on the freeway and stop commerce, refuse to show up for work, refuse to borrow and spend more than you make, show up in Washington DC with a million of your neighbors and literally shut down The Capitol you WILL be bent over the table on a daily basis." Karl Denninger Don't blame me; I voted for Ron Paul. Silence is consent. |
Evil Twin
User ID: 473264 United States 07/25/2008 09:55 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Well, I have a PS2, but I don't feel as guilty as say, the Rwandan warlords that used the child labor to line their own pockets should. Quoting: Redheaded StepchildThe point is to shed a little light on the human cost modern consumerism requires. I understand. Maybe we need a new label, like on the 'dolphin-safe' tuna. "Slave labor-free" capacitors inside. I'm sure the majority of the world has no idea this goes on. |
Me
User ID: 394187 United Kingdom 07/25/2008 09:55 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I'm not sure why Ben Silverman has mainly targeted PS2's though .. ... electronic gadgets like cell phones, iPods, laptop computers, play stations, wireless systems, DVD players, blackberries and pagers possible [link to childrens-rights.suite101.com] I listen to both God and Satan ... I like to hear both sides of the story. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 283565 United States 07/25/2008 09:58 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Redheaded Stepchild
(OP) User ID: 461218 United States 07/25/2008 10:01 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I understand. Quoting: Evil TwinMaybe we need a new label, like on the 'dolphin-safe' tuna. "Slave labor-free" capacitors inside. I'm sure the majority of the world has no idea this goes on. Great idea. I have no idea whether or not "dolphin-safe" tuna really is helping the dolphins, but I do know that I prefer to buy the tuna that at least tells me no dolphins were involved in the making of the tuna. "Until you are willing to organize your friends and neighbors and literally shut down cities - drive at 5mph through the streets of major cities on the freeway and stop commerce, refuse to show up for work, refuse to borrow and spend more than you make, show up in Washington DC with a million of your neighbors and literally shut down The Capitol you WILL be bent over the table on a daily basis." Karl Denninger Don't blame me; I voted for Ron Paul. Silence is consent. |
Redheaded Stepchild
(OP) User ID: 461218 United States 07/25/2008 10:02 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This is the first I have heard about Coltan and yet more than 2 million Children have died in the past ten years from mining it. =( Quoting: MeI'm not sure why Ben Silverman has mainly targeted PS2's though .. ... electronic gadgets like cell phones, iPods, laptop computers, play stations, wireless systems, DVD players, blackberries and pagers possible [link to childrens-rights.suite101.com] Perhaps he needed a hook? "Until you are willing to organize your friends and neighbors and literally shut down cities - drive at 5mph through the streets of major cities on the freeway and stop commerce, refuse to show up for work, refuse to borrow and spend more than you make, show up in Washington DC with a million of your neighbors and literally shut down The Capitol you WILL be bent over the table on a daily basis." Karl Denninger Don't blame me; I voted for Ron Paul. Silence is consent. |
Evil Twin
User ID: 473264 United States 07/25/2008 10:05 AM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This is the first I have heard about Coltan and yet more than 2 million Children have died in the past ten years from mining it. =( Quoting: MeI'm not sure why Ben Silverman has mainly targeted PS2's though .. ... electronic gadgets like cell phones, iPods, laptop computers, play stations, wireless systems, DVD players, blackberries and pagers possible [link to childrens-rights.suite101.com] Yep. Tantalum caps are likely to be found in any electronic gizmo where size and weight are at a premium. |
Derren User ID: 473324 United States 07/25/2008 12:10 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This is an example of how twisted the understanding of basic economics has become. If a corporation in the U.S. wished to purchase elephant dung to be made into a special plant fertilizer, and that dung was essentially free for the picking up, would that not be a great way for trade to enhance the living conditions of a group of native Africans ? So when the local warlords, in conspiracy with the local government, forces children to pick up elephant dung and give it to them, the U.S. is somehow complicit in child slave labor ? We have been criticized for not engaging Africa in trade and thereby helping those countries. The market for metals is a free international market through which any country is free to trade. So now that a few corporations wish to engage in this market we are killing children and forcing slave labor ? One would be better focusing on the corrupt African governments and warlords. |
Redheaded Stepchild
(OP) User ID: 461218 United States 07/25/2008 12:16 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This is an example of how twisted the understanding of basic economics has become. Quoting: Derren 473324If a corporation in the U.S. wished to purchase elephant dung to be made into a special plant fertilizer, and that dung was essentially free for the picking up, would that not be a great way for trade to enhance the living conditions of a group of native Africans ? So when the local warlords, in conspiracy with the local government, forces children to pick up elephant dung and give it to them, the U.S. is somehow complicit in child slave labor ? We have been criticized for not engaging Africa in trade and thereby helping those countries. The market for metals is a free international market through which any country is free to trade. So now that a few corporations wish to engage in this market we are killing children and forcing slave labor ? One would be better focusing on the corrupt African governments and warlords. U.S.? I'm talking about CONSUMERS and CORPORATIONS. "Until you are willing to organize your friends and neighbors and literally shut down cities - drive at 5mph through the streets of major cities on the freeway and stop commerce, refuse to show up for work, refuse to borrow and spend more than you make, show up in Washington DC with a million of your neighbors and literally shut down The Capitol you WILL be bent over the table on a daily basis." Karl Denninger Don't blame me; I voted for Ron Paul. Silence is consent. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 470976 United Kingdom 07/25/2008 12:18 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
loosecannon
User ID: 473320 United States 07/25/2008 12:21 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | This is an example of how twisted the understanding of basic economics has become. Quoting: Derren 473324If a corporation in the U.S. wished to purchase elephant dung to be made into a special plant fertilizer, and that dung was essentially free for the picking up, would that not be a great way for trade to enhance the living conditions of a group of native Africans ? So when the local warlords, in conspiracy with the local government, forces children to pick up elephant dung and give it to them, the U.S. is somehow complicit in child slave labor ? We have been criticized for not engaging Africa in trade and thereby helping those countries. The market for metals is a free international market through which any country is free to trade. So now that a few corporations wish to engage in this market we are killing children and forcing slave labor ? One would be better focusing on the corrupt African governments and warlords. Hard rock mining isn't as free as picking up dung. And Africa has minerals that are exceptionally rare, and because of their cheap labor are cheap. The video manufacturer is benefiting from CHEAP tantalum. And additionally their demand for the resource increased world demand considerably. You can ignore the causal relationships between consumption and production if you like, taking comfort in the fact that the slavedrivers are merely being paid for their practices..... But legally that does make us fourth or fifth party accessories to slavery. |
Derren User ID: 473324 United States 07/25/2008 12:40 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | U.S.? I'm talking about CONSUMERS and CORPORATIONS. Quoting: Redheaded StepchildThe computer you are using right now contains tantalum capacitors. I assume you did not purchase the ore, smelt the tantulum, manufacture the capacitors and contruct your computer ? You purchase tatalum via corporations by way of international trade agreements set up to facilitate trade. Those trade agreements are signed by governments. The governments in Africa are corrupt and utilize warlords to enslave children. This has nothing to do with consumers, the corporations that provide goods to consumers or even the U.S. government. It has to do governments in Africa. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 473324 United States 07/25/2008 12:57 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Hard rock mining isn't as free as picking up dung. Quoting: loosecannonAnd Africa has minerals that are exceptionally rare, and because of their cheap labor are cheap. The video manufacturer is benefiting from CHEAP tantalum. And additionally their demand for the resource increased world demand considerably. You can ignore the causal relationships between consumption and production if you like, taking comfort in the fact that the slavedrivers are merely being paid for their practices..... But legally that does make us fourth or fifth party accessories to slavery. Do you think there is some kind of sliding scale of the value of the commodity that at some point would justify child slave labor ? The value of the commodity has nothing to do with child slave labor. Does it matter if children are brutally forced into mines or brutally forced to pick up elephant dung ? The principal is exactly the same. The resource is owned by the country in Africa where the ore is located. It does not matter if it's coltan or elephant dung, it is exactly the same issue. It is necessary for governments to establish trade agreements so that they are able to participate in global commodity markets. It establishes the legal framework and settles the currency values and methods of exchange. Every country and even individuals may purchase tantalum on the OPEN global commodity market. If a country has this commodity and wishes to sell it on the global market, any person or corporation may bid for it. The control of how that commodity reaches the market lies totally within the control of the country that has that commodity, and no where else. I am just dismayed that so many people think the U.S. and consumers are even remotely responsible for child slavery and the brutality in some African countries. It is absurd. It displays a complete ignorance of how global markets work and how much the U.S. is able to help developing countries by buying goods and services from them. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 454051 United States 07/25/2008 01:28 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Isn't the United States responsible for every atrocity committed in the world? Aren't we responsible for the actions of every single government and their citizens? Maybe we should just refrain from buying any products made outside the United States, including food. We are the bad guys in every single situation that develops regarding treatment of the some country's citizens. The government heads of that country are never castigated for the atrocious acts because it is much easier to lay the blame on the United States. The truth be told, most countries would have no prosperity whatsoever without United States consumerism. |
loosecannon
User ID: 473320 United States 07/25/2008 01:43 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Do you think there is some kind of sliding scale of the value of the commodity that at some point would justify child slave labor ? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 473324The value of the commodity has nothing to do with child slave labor. Does it matter if children are brutally forced into mines or brutally forced to pick up elephant dung ? The principal is exactly the same. The resource is owned by the country in Africa where the ore is located. It does not matter if it's coltan or elephant dung, it is exactly the same issue. It is necessary for governments to establish trade agreements so that they are able to participate in global commodity markets. It establishes the legal framework and settles the currency values and methods of exchange. Every country and even individuals may purchase tantalum on the OPEN global commodity market. If a country has this commodity and wishes to sell it on the global market, any person or corporation may bid for it. The control of how that commodity reaches the market lies totally within the control of the country that has that commodity, and no where else. I am just dismayed that so many people think the U.S. and consumers are even remotely responsible for child slavery and the brutality in some African countries. It is absurd. It displays a complete ignorance of how global markets work and how much the U.S. is able to help developing countries by buying goods and services from them. I understand the mechanism you are discussing. But legally we are parties to the crime, because we are paying for it's commissions. The number of middle men in the exchange seperates us from the deed itself but not from responsibility. And neither the commodities markets or the "need" you speak of for nations to participate in them are absolute. Many corporations negotiate directly with resource extractors directly, often owning the resource extraction industry. Bilateral agreements and simple contracts, it happens all the time, common practice. You don't want responsibility for your consumption is how it appears. You want to blame the poor nations who have the least power and the most needs for outside capital for a system they had the least role in constructing. Make hay, I hope it eases your conscience. |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 472852 Australia 07/25/2008 01:48 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Plenty of Coltan in my backyard. Unfortunately, no slave labour here to process it. I'm positive that this will be remedied eventually. Then we can ALL be African and Asian - like one, united new world and no one will feel discriminated against anymore as all except a handful will be equally treated like shit. ahhhhhhhhhh |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 473324 United States 07/25/2008 02:29 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | I understand the mechanism you are discussing. Quoting: loosecannonBut legally we are parties to the crime, because we are paying for it's commissions. The number of middle men in the exchange seperates us from the deed itself but not from responsibility. And neither the commodities markets or the "need" you speak of for nations to participate in them are absolute. Many corporations negotiate directly with resource extractors directly, often owning the resource extraction industry. Bilateral agreements and simple contracts, it happens all the time, common practice. You don't want responsibility for your consumption is how it appears. You want to blame the poor nations who have the least power and the most needs for outside capital for a system they had the least role in constructing. Make hay, I hope it eases your conscience. Wikipedia: Tantalum ================================================== The main production of tantalum occurs in Australia, where the largest producer, Talison Minerals (formerly part of the Sons of Gwalia company), operates the Wodgina mine.[3] Tantalum minerals are also mined in Brazil, Canada, China, Ethiopia and Mozambique. Tantalum is also produced in Thailand and Malaysia as a by-product of tin mining and smelting. ====================================================== Do you see the Democratic Republic of Congo anywhere on that list ? Why is there not an outcry regarding murder and child slave labor in Australia ? It's because Australia is not run by a corrupt and brutal government and warlords. "But legally we are parties to the crime, because we are paying for it's commissions. The number of middle men in the exchange seperates us from the deed itself but not from responsibility." What you are saying here is that anyone who uses a $10 bill to pay for groceries and that $10 bill was one stolen from an old lady who was brutally murdered, is as guilty as the murderer ? Commodities and currencies are exchanged across the globe in the trillions of dollars each day. Just because any consumer chooses to own either, does not make them responsible for anyone else who has owned that commodity or chooses to buy or sell it, and is an evil demon. It is the evil demon that is the problem. How would you solve this problem of child slavery and brutality ? Would you cut off all trade with Congo ? "Many corporations negotiate directly with resource extractors directly, often owning the resource extraction industry. Bilateral agreements and simple contracts, it happens all the time, common practice." Importing tantalum powder into the U.S. by any method other than the global commodities market is called smuggling. So now U.S. consumers are also smugglers ? "Make hay, I hope it eases your conscience." The computer you are using contains tantalum capacitors, which by your logic, makes you a child killer. Is that so ? |
Anonymous Coward User ID: 473385 Spain 07/25/2008 02:31 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
loosecannon
User ID: 473481 United States 07/25/2008 06:34 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | "Many corporations negotiate directly with resource extractors directly, often owning the resource extraction industry. Bilateral agreements and simple contracts, it happens all the time, common practice." Quoting: Anonymous Coward 473324Importing tantalum powder into the U.S. by any method other than the global commodities market is called smuggling. So now U.S. consumers are also smugglers ? You must have flipped a circuit. Why would importing Tantalum be smuggling? It isn't a controlled substance and anybody can buy and sell it import it etc. It must pass customs with the required paperwork, that's it. you can buy it here: [link to chinacarbide.com] |
loosecannon
User ID: 473481 United States 07/25/2008 06:41 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | The computer you are using contains tantalum capacitors, which by your logic, makes you a child killer. Is that so ? Quoting: Anonymous Coward 473324actually that is your logic, which is why it is flawed. My logic says that if my computer contains tantalum that was mined in Africa with child slave labor then I am an assessory to that slavery. By virtue of the fact that I helped pay for the commission of those war crimes. Ask Nike for a further explanation. |
CanadianVandal
User ID: 471650 United States 07/25/2008 06:43 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | |
Redheaded Stepchild
(OP) User ID: 461218 United States 07/25/2008 06:59 PM Report Abusive Post Report Copyright Violation | Hard rock mining isn't as free as picking up dung. Quoting: loosecannonAnd Africa has minerals that are exceptionally rare, and because of their cheap labor are cheap. The video manufacturer is benefiting from CHEAP tantalum. And additionally their demand for the resource increased world demand considerably. You can ignore the causal relationships between consumption and production if you like, taking comfort in the fact that the slavedrivers are merely being paid for their practices..... But legally that does make us fourth or fifth party accessories to slavery. LOOSECANNON: That pretty much sums it up, as I see it. It leaves a dull ache in the pit of my stomach, too. Putting a little light on the subject might mean that people will become more aware of the impact their consumption has on those who have no power over their own lives. Maybe. "Until you are willing to organize your friends and neighbors and literally shut down cities - drive at 5mph through the streets of major cities on the freeway and stop commerce, refuse to show up for work, refuse to borrow and spend more than you make, show up in Washington DC with a million of your neighbors and literally shut down The Capitol you WILL be bent over the table on a daily basis." Karl Denninger Don't blame me; I voted for Ron Paul. Silence is consent. |