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Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems

 
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Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
Splitting Time from Space—New Quantum Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime

Was Newton right and Einstein wrong? It seems that unzipping the fabric of spacetime and harking back to 19th-century notions of time could lead to a theory of quantum gravity.

Physicists have struggled to marry quantum mechanics with gravity for decades. In contrast, the other forces of nature have obediently fallen into line. For instance, the electromagnetic force can be described quantum-mechanically by the motion of photons. Try and work out the gravitational force between two objects in terms of a quantum graviton, however, and you quickly run into trouble—the answer to every calculation is infinity. But now Petr Hořava, a physicist at the University of California, Berkeley, thinks he understands the problem. It’s all, he says, a matter of time.

More specifically, the problem is the way that time is tied up with space in Einstein’s theory of gravity: general relativity. Einstein famously overturned the Newtonian notion that time is absolute—steadily ticking away in the background. Instead he argued that time is another dimension, woven together with space to form a malleable fabric that is distorted by matter. The snag is that in quantum mechanics, time retains its Newtonian aloofness, providing the stage against which matter dances but never being affected by its presence. These two conceptions of time don’t gel.

The solution, Hořava says, is to snip threads that bind time to space at very high energies, such as those found in the early universe where quantum gravity rules. “I’m going back to Newton’s idea that time and space are not equivalent,” Hořava says. At low energies, general relativity emerges from this underlying framework, and the fabric of spacetime restitches, he explains.

Hořava likens this emergence to the way some exotic substances change phase. For instance, at low temperatures liquid helium’s properties change dramatically, becoming a “superfluid” that can overcome friction. In fact, he has co-opted the mathematics of exotic phase transitions to build his theory of gravity. So far it seems to be working: the infinities that plague other theories of quantum gravity have been tamed, and the theory spits out a well-behaved graviton. It also seems to match with computer simulations of quantum gravity.

Hořava’s theory has been generating excitement since he proposed it in January, and physicists met to discuss it at a meeting in November at the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Waterloo, Ontario. In particular, physicists have been checking if the model correctly describes the universe we see today. General relativity scored a knockout blow when Einstein predicted the motion of Mercury with greater accuracy than Newton’s theory of gravity could.

Can Hořřava gravity claim the same success? The first tentative answers coming in say “yes.” Francisco Lobo, now at the University of Lisbon, and his colleagues have found a good match with the movement of planets.

Others have made even bolder claims for Hořava gravity, especially when it comes to explaining cosmic conundrums such as the singularity of the big bang, where the laws of physics break down. If Hořava gravity is true, argues cosmologist Robert Brandenberger of McGill University in a paper published in the August Physical Review D, then the universe didn’t bang—it bounced. “A universe filled with matter will contract down to a small—but finite—size and then bounce out again, giving us the expanding cosmos we see today,” he says. Brandenberger’s calculations show that ripples produced by the bounce match those already detected by satellites measuring the cosmic microwave background, and he is now looking for signatures that could distinguish the bounce from the big bang scenario.

Hořava gravity may also create the “illusion of dark matter,” says cosmologist Shinji Mukohyama of Tokyo University. In the September Physical Review D, he explains that in certain circumstances Hořava’s graviton fluctuates as it interacts with normal matter, making gravity pull a bit more strongly than expected in general relativity. The effect could make galaxies appear to contain more matter than can be seen. If that’s not enough, cosmologist Mu-In Park of Chonbuk National University in South Korea believes that Hořava gravity may also be behind the accelerated expansion of the universe, currently attributed to a mysterious dark energy. One of the leading explanations for its origin is that empty space contains some intrinsic energy that pushes the universe outward. This intrinsic energy cannot be accounted for by general relativity but pops naturally out of the equations of Hořava gravity, according to Park.
[link to www.scientificamerican.com]
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
This is soooo wrong. Where can I begin?
Anonymous Coward
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11/25/2009 03:50 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
"For instance, the electromagnetic force can be described quantum-mechanically by the motion of photons."

No No No. Quantum -Mechanicaly? WTF is quantum mechanically?
That is a made up word.

Electro magnetic force is described as motion of electrons.
Photons are mass less light particles.Photons have no mass.

Come to the picnic, all are invited, the only requirement is that you at LEAST bring a picnic basket with you!
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11/25/2009 03:53 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
"Physicists have struggled to marry quantum mechanics with gravity for decades."

No they haven't, only quantum physicists have.

Because it's quasi science.

I have not struggled at all since Einstein showed that gravity was not a force,but, an effect. As a result of the space time continuum.
Anonymous Coward
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11/25/2009 03:55 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
OP: quit quoting= start thinking!
Free Store  (OP)

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11/25/2009 03:58 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
"Physicists have struggled to marry quantum mechanics with gravity for decades."

No they haven't, only quantum physicists have.

Because it's quasi science.

I have not struggled at all since Einstein showed that gravity was not a force,but, an effect. As a result of the space time continuum.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 824576

I'm not disagreeing with you.

Is a magnet's principal a force or an effect?
Anonymous Coward
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11/25/2009 04:03 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
I too have some serious issues with this article. I guess we'll know in 50 years one way or the other.
Anonymous Coward
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11/25/2009 04:06 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
No they haven't, only quantum physicists have.

Because it's quasi science.

 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 824576


so, the quantum computing (based on quantum physic) is also a quasi thing...?

I'm afraid you are the one who has to start to think, Einsteins theories are wrong and obsolete

the universe is electric quantum field, get over it





iamwith
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
Magnetics, as realized in experiments is force. Don't grab your dictionary. Yet.

I believe it's effects can appear to be a force. But, think about it on your own.

Is there a way to measure the force caused by a magnetic field when there is no counter force?
For instance , take a magnet in the presence of a ferro magnetic substance like iron, now compare it to the magnetic force upon a neutral body in the presence of bismuth.

Did the force dissapear? Did it become disjointed, deterred, refracted.

Energy is energy right? So was it dissapated? Refracted(where did it go) energy is constant.Newton sats it will manifest itself in some way, somewhere, equal to what it always was. You cannot reduce or increade it.

So, where does it manifest itself of apparent dissapation or refraction?

In friction as exposed to copper? As heat? Light? or something else on a dimension unknown or at least not yet understood?
Anonymous Coward
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11/25/2009 04:17 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
No they haven't, only quantum physicists have.

Because it's quasi science.



so, the quantum computing (based on quantum physic) is also a quasi thing...?

I'm afraid you are the one who has to start to think, Einsteins theories are wrong and obsolete

the universe is electric quantum field, get over it





iamwith
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 826669

Quantum physics exists , at least partially, because no one can yet explain the basis of the foundation of energy.
Energy cannot be created from nothing. Einstein, nor anybody else has yet to explain how, knowing that, the universe exists.

Thus the search goes on for the "creation particle/matter/spark/inspiration."

Heaven forbid the mystical and inspiring phrase from the bible might simply just be true.
God is, was, and always will be. From the beginning of time until time everlasting in a world without end. Amen.

It has been offered as the explanation for at least 6000 years as long as men have written.

Einstein could not find the source of the start of being, nor Newton, nor anyone else so far.

Be the genius. Be the first in the history of mankind to do what the most intelligent minds we have yet to offer have been unable to do.
Explain how matter was intially set into motion considering Newtons law.

Good luck.
Free Store  (OP)

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11/25/2009 04:25 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
OK good luck to you..Treat gravity particles as you do light particles
DanfromtheHills

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11/25/2009 04:27 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
"For instance, the electromagnetic force can be described quantum-mechanically by the motion of photons."

No No No. Quantum -Mechanicaly? WTF is quantum mechanically?
That is a made up word.

Electro magnetic force is described as motion of electrons.
Photons are mass less light particles.Photons have no mass.

Come to the picnic, all are invited, the only requirement is that you at LEAST bring a picnic basket with you!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 824576


Ok, let me first agree that this article has some curious points. It seems that you have some grasp of science, so lets proceed to it and not get personal.

"Quantum-Mechanically", I assume will be those things which are governed by probabilistic equations. Sometimes the language barrier interferes...

Electromagnetic force is something generally ascribed to two bodies having a voltage difference between them. Such as a cloud bank and the Earth. Motion of electrons is defined as being measured in Amperes.

As far as I know photons have no mass.

It seems to me that Zeeya Merali is implying that the rules that govern things are tiered. This separation of rules is based on frequencies. As it is a preliminary work, it is open to interpretation.

Does anyone know of any peer-reviews on the topic?
"Nothing to see here, go back to sheep..." --- AC 1251379
Anonymous Coward
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11/25/2009 04:28 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
No they haven't, only quantum physicists have.

Because it's quasi science.



so, the quantum computing (based on quantum physic) is also a quasi thing...?

I'm afraid you are the one who has to start to think, Einsteins theories are wrong and obsolete

the universe is electric quantum field, get over it





iamwith
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 826669

You are defining quantum computation based on quantum physics which itself is a fallacy.
You cannot logically define the existence of something on the theoretical existence of something else and pretend it's a fact.

How did come up with "the universe is a quantum field"?
WTF does that mean?
Explain the universe(I really don't know where to begin here) based on that ridiculously generalized statement.
How about we take that statement you made and relate it somehow to the movement of matter under velocity and it's effect on mass> you up for that? For starters?
Anonymous Coward
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11/25/2009 04:30 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
OK good luck to you..Treat gravity particles as you do light particles
 Quoting: Free Store

WTF is a "gravity particle?"
Free Store  (OP)

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11/25/2009 04:31 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
Remember..good luck
DanfromtheHills

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11/25/2009 04:34 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
from page 2 of the article...

"Hořava’s theory, however, is far from perfect. Diego Blas, a quantum gravity researcher at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) in Lausanne has found a “hidden sickness” in the theory when double-checking calculations for the solar system. Most physicists examined ideal cases, assuming, for instance, that Earth and the sun are spheres, Blas explains: “We checked the more realistic case, where the sun is almost a sphere, but not quite.” General relativity pretty much gives the same answer in both the scenarios. But in Hořava gravity, the realistic case gives a wildly different result."

Again intriguing. The best part about the theory so far, why does it give such a divergent result? True science in the making even if the original premise proves to be completely erroneous.
"Nothing to see here, go back to sheep..." --- AC 1251379
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
"For instance, the electromagnetic force can be described quantum-mechanically by the motion of photons."

No No No. Quantum -Mechanicaly? WTF is quantum mechanically?
That is a made up word.

Electro magnetic force is described as motion of electrons.
Photons are mass less light particles.Photons have no mass.

Come to the picnic, all are invited, the only requirement is that you at LEAST bring a picnic basket with you!


Ok, let me first agree that this article has some curious points. It seems that you have some grasp of science, so lets proceed to it and not get personal.

"Quantum-Mechanically", I assume will be those things which are governed by probabilistic equations. Sometimes the language barrier interferes...

Electromagnetic force is something generally ascribed to two bodies having a voltage difference between them. Such as a cloud bank and the Earth. Motion of electrons is defined as being measured in Amperes.

As far as I know photons have no mass.

It seems to me that Zeeya Merali is implying that the rules that govern things are tiered. This separation of rules is based on frequencies. As it is a preliminary work, it is open to interpretation.

Does anyone know of any peer-reviews on the topic?
 Quoting: DanfromtheHills

It is a fact that photons have no mass. That is why nothing that has maSS can ever exceed the speed of light. Because it would take an infinite amount of energy to achieve it. Get it?
The "rules that govern *things* are tiered? "The separation of rules is based on frequency*= have you thought about this statement?
It is a preliminary work?/???
It is not a preliminary work- no offense intended.
You are thinking. Great.Please do not let theorhetical thinking bleed onto the matte.
Anonymous Coward
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11/25/2009 04:41 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
from page 2 of the article...

"Hořava’s theory, however, is far from perfect. Diego Blas, a quantum gravity researcher at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) in Lausanne has found a “hidden sickness” in the theory when double-checking calculations for the solar system. Most physicists examined ideal cases, assuming, for instance, that Earth and the sun are spheres, Blas explains: “We checked the more realistic case, where the sun is almost a sphere, but not quite.” General relativity pretty much gives the same answer in both the scenarios. But in Hořava gravity, the realistic case gives a wildly different result."

Again intriguing. The best part about the theory so far, why does it give such a divergent result? True science in the making even if the original premise proves to be completely erroneous.
 Quoting: DanfromtheHills

A work in progress. Einstein in his theory of general relativity has already been proven to be true.

If someone has has something better offer, then it it remains only a question until it can
A) prove itself to be true
B) Prove Einstein to be incorrect

Neither has happened yet..
However, Copernicus was proven to be incorrect and so Newton, but, it took several hundred years to do so.
Anonymous Coward
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11/25/2009 04:47 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
wtf? what name is it Hořava? Japan or Russian or what? It does not seem to be English. How to pronounce it?
Anonymous Coward
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11/25/2009 04:50 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
Further, since photons have no mass. How does e=mc2 apply?

The answer will make you think, because it cannot apply to massless particles. By definition. There is separate equation to measure light which as a wavelength or frequency which someone here earlier posted in a confusing manner.

Is it possible that light (photons) always exists and manifests itself as we rudimentarily interpret and register it as waves? Or frequency?

Is it possible that we are still in the "stone age" as far as understanding this goes. I do believe so.
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
wtf? what name is it Hořava? Japan or Russian or what? It does not seem to be English. How to pronounce it?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 826684

LOL
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
OK good luck to you..Treat gravity particles as you do light particles

WTF is a "gravity particle?"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 824576



It doesn't appear that our science has examined this aspect of a magnetic field thoroughly. I'm unable to find any name that defines the smallest magnetic unit. The obvious name would be "magnetron", such as "electron" in electricity.
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
Remember..good luck
 Quoting: Free Store


Remember, you are one stupid fuck.
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
It is a fact that photons have no mass. That is why nothing that has maSS can ever exceed the speed of light. Because it would take an infinite amount of energy to achieve it. Get it?
The "rules that govern *things* are tiered? "The separation of rules is based on frequency*= have you thought about this statement?
It is a preliminary work?/???
It is not a preliminary work- no offense intended.
You are thinking. Great.Please do not let theorhetical thinking bleed onto the matte.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 824576


You know, I was gonna give ya break kiddo, because I like the fact that young folks are interested in science and math, and that gives me a bright rosy feeling about the future. This bit of personal folly having been set duly aside, I consider it upon my honor to destroy the THING the you have just left on my favorite forum. I am not sure what that thing is yet, as I am trying do decide whether it is English, or some former pilgrimish script.

But, at last, I think I have the language in which you converse converted, and, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I think it best to offer a line item veto of your diatribe, and let the chips fall where they may...

"It is a fact that photons have no mass."

Photons around black holes acquire equivalent mass, that is the reason why light does not escape a black hole. The "fact" that photons have no mass holds true for most of the known universe, just not all of it.

"That is why nothing that has maSS can ever exceed the speed of light."

[link to www.khouse.org]

"Some scientists now claim they have broken the ultimate speed barrier: the speed of light.1

Particle physicists at the NEC Research Institute at Princeton apparently have indicated that light pulses can be accelerated to up to 300 times their normal velocity of 186,282 miles per second."

At least YOU think that.

"The "rules that govern *things* are tiered? "The separation of rules is based on frequency*= have you thought about this statement?"

Yes actually I have. It's a hermetic philosophy, As Above, So Below. I'm not sure of it's exact meaning, and I'm not sure anyone else does either. But, it does conjure up some powerful imagery that everyone should be exposed to...

The universe is an ever expansive thing. Filled with the tendrils of unknown stuffs which the human race calls dark matter. Currently, we can only guess as to the size, shape, and elastic nature of the cosmos we inhabit. These veins of matter connect every cell and membrane of the universe we can see. Every Galaxy, every nebula. The gravitational influences from these massive interstellar bodies transmit themselves without remit of time instantaneously across the chronoclastic infundibulum. Across these galaxies exist a multitude of stars, on some of which, planets orbit in the right proximity to sustain and evolve life. This life would have originated from the interactions of the those constituent components called proteins and amino acids that are not far along the list of the most common compounds in the universe, water being the first. The components that make these first cells are in essence the blocks that formed the first atoms, entangled from the first cause.

Is it not plain to see that things operate on scales?

"It is a preliminary work?/???"

As far as I know it is. If you know peer reviews or other things associated with this topic, please feel free to post them. This is the first I've heard of it.

"It is not a preliminary work- no offense intended.
You are thinking. Great.Please do not let theorhetical thinking bleed onto the matte."

Skoal, and I tip my whiskey to ya!
VestanPance

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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
As with standard ideas about the universe, all these theories share one thing in common....they all have fudge factors...made up stuff such as Dark Matter, which allows a theory to fit.

Last Edited by VestanPance on 11/25/2009 05:50 AM
Cheers.
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DanfromtheHills

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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
As with standard ideas about the universe, all these theories share one thing in common....they all have fudge factors...made up stuff such as Dark Matter, which allows a theory to fit.
 Quoting: VestanPance


Yep
"Nothing to see here, go back to sheep..." --- AC 1251379
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11/25/2009 06:00 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
In Obamaland the laws of physics
had to be suspended.. all that was
is no longer valid and they can
pull proof to support any new theory
out their ass faster than you can say

Mmm Mmm Mmm gotta be true!
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
Magnetics, as realized in experiments is force. Don't grab your dictionary. Yet.

I believe it's effects can appear to be a force. But, think about it on your own.

Is there a way to measure the force caused by a magnetic field when there is no counter force?
For instance , take a magnet in the presence of a ferro magnetic substance like iron, now compare it to the magnetic force upon a neutral body in the presence of bismuth.

Did the force dissapear? Did it become disjointed, deterred, refracted.

Energy is energy right? So was it dissapated? Refracted(where did it go) energy is constant.Newton sats it will manifest itself in some way, somewhere, equal to what it always was. You cannot reduce or increade it.

So, where does it manifest itself of apparent dissapation or refraction?

In friction as exposed to copper? As heat? Light? or something else on a dimension unknown or at least not yet understood?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 824576


I'm never studied physics, and I only know as much as I've learned from reading various articles and watching NOVA docos (mainly around the 'String Theory' stage - The Elegant Universe & Einstein's Equation of Life & Death) so I'm probably out of the loop on most of this nowadays. But I remember seeing a doco years ago (possibly on M-Theory) which posed the possibility that gravitons were 'escaping' into another dimension; and another one more recently which hypothesised that the reason we can't 'see' much of the Universe we know is there (dark matter) is because it is just not capable of measuring from 3-d perspective. I was reminded of it recently by that "Imagining the 10th dimension" vid someone posted here: [link to www.youtube.com]



Sorry if i'm getting off track here, just seemed relevant.


OK good luck to you..Treat gravity particles as you do light particles

WTF is a "gravity particle?"
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 824576



I think he means a 'graviton' [link to en.wikipedia.org]
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
Lol @ typo

"I'm never studied physics" - probably says it all doesn't it :p
Free Store  (OP)

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11/25/2009 06:23 AM
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
I think he means a 'graviton'

Nice try..I mean particle as in light particle and magnetic particle

Something has to flow in order to work

Anyways off topic
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Re: Physicists: Theory Topples Einstein's Spacetime it seems
As with standard ideas about the universe, all these theories share one thing in common....they all have fudge factors...made up stuff such as Dark Matter, which allows a theory to fit.


Yep
 Quoting: DanfromtheHills



Indeed, sounds like global warming. If you can't make your sums add up, then just make something else up to help you on your way.

I'm no physicist, but Dark Matter just sounds like BS to commonsense ears.





GLP