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Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff

 
ERIN
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12/20/2009 04:22 PM
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Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff

[link to theautomaticearth.blogspot.co...es-and-mr.html]

VK: The persistent notion that there's only $1-2 trillion in losses remaining in the banking system, as some people conclude from what Roubini and others may have stated, is false; that would be peanuts. The Federal Reserve printed $1.55 trillion to buy up toxic MBS plus Treasury paper. But the problem has not been cured, in particular: most of the toxic debt still remains hidden through the application of shady accounting practices. There is no solution in sight in the current political paradigm.

Think about it this way: the US government has implicitly and explicitly guaranteed, loaned, subsidized and given away about $12.8 trillion to banks while these banks have only $10 trillion or so in real assets. Why is the government giving so much assistance, a sum far greater then all assets combined of the US banking system?

Simple really, the derivatives aka bets are far larger than global GDP, estimated to be between $500 trillion and $1,5 quadrillion. JP Morgan alone holds $90 trillion or so in derivatives while the entire US GDP per annum is no more than one-sixth of that, at $14-odd trillion.

So those bets have gone bad and gone wrong and they have been kept hidden in the broom cupboard thanks to creative fictional accounting practices, in level 3 assets on bank balance sheets, and in off balance sheet items.

The losses are real, the bets went bad, and Washington is attempting a show of CONfidence to prevent a systemic collapse. But when Mr. Market calls the government's bluff, and he will, then people will realize the US Government is the naked emperor, with no money to back up those guarantees for failed and long dead enterprises.

There are three things in life that man can't prevent - death, taxes and Mr. Market calling the bluff.

See, Mr. Market is a master illusionist, is he not? Evidence you say?!

First he creates a mini panic, a preview if you will, that has many people crying out, "head for the hills", "rapids ahead!", then he deftly creates a slope of hope, which we are on now for the moment, where all the suckers who ran for the hills and paddled away from the rapids and in the process lost a few trillion here and there, realize how 'naive' they were and start buying any risky asset in sight. Gotta recoup those losses they say!

This year Mr. Market has gotten quite a leg up in emerging markets, what with Brazil rising 80% and India up by 70%, the anti-USD play evolving into a dollar carry trade and giving rise to bubbleicious bubbles in Asia, gold, stocks, and with corporate bond yields declining all year long. Alas, Mr. Market never makes it too easy and has been giving people cause for worry. What is it with those pesky 10 Year bonds yielding 3.5%, can't they sniff the inflation ahead people ask, why are they priced so high? Also, why did the difference between the long end of the curve and short end of the curve reach new highs recently?

Mr. Market gives hints to those who see and those who listen. What goes up, must come down as the old cliché goes. Bill Bonner puts it best, "The extent of the correction is equal and opposite to the deception that preceded it." And my, what deception we had! A glorious age of mankind was dawning we were told, that of stable growth, the end of recessions, scientific economic theory and a gilded age of prosperity.

So Mr. Market gives us hints, hints not to listen to the fools, the ones that missed the crisis and are now predicting its early demise. The hints are obviously the rising USD over the last few days, the considerable fall in gold, the problems re-emanating across Dubai, Spain, Greece, Ireland etc. Looks like Mr. Market is saying that the flight to safety has begun and lord knows it will be grand. When those on the slope of hope get caught up at the greasy end, when they suddenly lose grip, with horror etched on their faces as they tumble away far down into the nether regions of the world.

So the USD will rise in value much to the shock of all. The economy is worsening and it's rising people will say? Maybe even double in value from present values, it seems likely given the amount of debt deflation occurring in the world. The dollar represents 65% of the world's money and as money gets scarcer, the USD will be the One eyed King of the blind and ill, oil will fall substantially, a return to 10 dollars per barrel or less is in the cards given how much demand is going to plummet next year, so forget about Sheikhs in Abu Dhabi bailing out their hapless cousins in Dubai. Gold must fall, eventually I see Gold returning to 600 or less, maybe kissing the DOW, the bottom will be in when the Dow/ Gold ratio reaches around 1.

Emerging markets will get battered hard, bitterly hard. They rose the fastest and they will fall the fastest. The wind will get sucked out of them much faster than the US because remember emerging markets are peripheries, the flight to safety will see them crumble as money rushes to the perceived safety of the core countries. Imagine a concentric circle crumbling from outside in.

The world will groan and moan, for as yet we have not seen a real bust, whether it's the gravity defying Australian kangaroo economy which must contract sharply as China's epic credit fuelled hangover will eventually end leading to a bursting resource bubble there and in the overvalued Australian dollar or the bubbly Canadian house price boom whose vintage is decidedly toxic or those overpriced box-like hovels in England people call homes, their true value must eventually come out as Mr. Market believes in the truth and nothing is quite like the light of truth to reveal the ugly toxic glory of all credit cretins.

We will also learn that all those factories in China are worth zero, as well as those in Korea and Japan, as the buyers of their goods are fast becoming broke, unemployed and homeless and those who still have a roof over their head will find out that those houses are worth close to Zero and my how wages will fall due to the cascading effects of the deflationary spiral! It will certainly be a sight to behold. Though you may not see much in your wallet or your bank account.

Corporate bonds will get hammered and many companies will default as they simply can't pay back or up. This will grievously damage or end many too big to bailout entities and heaven help them as countries decide that saving banks isn't a particularly good idea if they have to commit national suicide in the process. Even the strongest companies are not worth the risk, as cash flow will all but dry up, much like quality entertainment on US television at present, as hardly any exists.

Let's watch cash flow drying up in greater detail for a moment; the banks you see have borrowed trillions upon trillions of dollars from the rest of the world and each other. Between today and 2012-2013 the banks need to refinance around $7 trillion at the least (that's what they're telling us, it could be much higher).

Now a basic rule of capitalism and thus banking is that you obviously want to make a profit, greed and the self are the key building blocks of our capitalist system. So banks borrow cheaply and make loans at a higher rate, the spread is how they make a profit. Now currently banks are not making many loans, in fact both European and American banks are decreasing the amount of loans they make while holding onto record reserves of cash.

What they are doing is borrowing at 0% from the FED and using that to buy Treasuries that pay around 3.5% and currently since the market is rallying they are using that to go long via speculative positions.

It sounds like a good deal but when you think about the fact that they have borrowed at a much higher rate then 3.5% and that they still hold trillions upon trillions of derivatives that require interest payments on the liabilities side of the balance sheet, and that they hold trillions in deteriorating commercial real estate loans, mortgages, businesses loans, corporate bonds etc. on the asset side, you can sniff out the trouble they are in!

Now because the vast majority of money supply is credit and that supply of credit has been declining, the amount of cash in the economy is declining and will decline further due to the unwillingness of banks to lend and the fear that borrowers have of going into more debt then they already are in. Obviously at some point the borrower realizes that swimming is fun but only if your head is above the water!

So income streams from mortgages, commercial loans, small and medium sized companies start declining as these companies lack substantial cash flow to meet their loan obligations. When the assets remain marked to myth for a longer period of time, the cash flow declines start having very real impacts. As cash flowing into the banking system declines, how can banks meet their trillions in obligations in the form of loans, bonds, deposit interest and the like? In short, they can't.

So if less income is coming in from the asset side of your business, the less likely you are to be able to pay your liabilities regardless of how high you 'book' your level 3 assets. And if ever level 3 assets are allowed to be marked to market, you'll find that the whole bada bing is worth zilch instantly; what I would call a bada boom.

So Mr. Market will start calling the banks when serious cash flow problems start emerging, in today's slope of hope rally, participants such as the banks and corporations have issued a record amount of bonds to stave off their cash flow problems and keep operations going as they can't get loans. Trying to solve a debt problem by adding more debt is just plain silly akin to 'curing' a tumorous cancer by providing the patient with adrenalin jabs to keep him alive while he writhes in agony for longer. The next deflationary wave down then hits when market participants realize how bad the real economy is due to:

1) The hidden psychological (herding) forces. A crisis of confidence.

2) Declining cash flows, cash that is vital in keeping the economy afloat.

We will see a flight to safety and a cascade down in the markets along with declines in wages, prices and an increasing debt burden as real interest rates skyrocket, provoking downturns in world trade and the whole globalization whopeedoo train!

When the proverbial smelly stuff hits the fan, the long end of the curve is an attractive place to be, the differential between the long and short ends looks far too large. 30 year bonds will shoot up in price and go substantially down in yields. I'm thinking that Mr. Market is hinting at a huge flight to safety. This could see 30 year yields at 1% or less, it all depends on Mr. Market of course, he alone is the giant amongst men.

Lest we forget the midgets amongst men, we shall honour them as well, currently Mr. Market has led resource currencies and commodities to heights far above where they should be and soon we shall find out that they are going to get hammered and hammered hard into the ground. As the Chinese crack stimulus fades and the sheer force of the contraction we are facing will wipe out all pricing support as demand will evaporates into the ether.

Obviously as we see an increasing loss of confidence, a bank run could ensue and definitely accelerate events rapidly! We could see a cascade event/ tipping point in the middle of next year or earlier as people lose confidence in the system. Once fear grips the population, I suspect Mr. Market will be looking forward to creating bank holidays and closures of the stock market. Banning those 'evil' short sellers and jawboning the slope of hope recovery, expect great oratory from President Obama next year and an attempt to take on more debt by Congress in attempt to 'recover' and 'stabilize'.

Did I mention Mr. Market loves practical jokes?

Now there's the old adage, All men are created equal but some more so then others. 'Tis the same with debt really. Not all debt is equal, some of it is more useful then other debt, for example private sector debt is more capital efficient then public sector debt though both are socially inefficient in the long run but that is a story for another day. A corporation is going to use debt more efficiently then a government is ever going to, as it has a profit motive to extract the most out of that borrowed dollar.

Now things get interesting, the time of creation of that debt is also very relevant. As credit forms 99% of the money supply and because money supply must always grow given the present monetary paradigm, it is obvious that credit/debt created 20 years ago carried more bang for the buck and that credit/debt created 60 years ago carried even more than that!

In the 1970's a car, good affordable housing, a nice university education etc cost far less then it does today and on much lower incomes as well.

So in the 70's and 80's a dollar borrowed was worth much more then it is today. You could buy more land, more house, more car, more education and more stock! Today a dollar won't do much as it has steadily devalued over time by a process we all know and love called inflation whereby your purchasing power as well as borrowing power declines over time.

Moreover, our economies have hit the big fearsome brick wall of diminishing returns. Today we have a situation where for every dollar that an individual or a company borrows, the system gets out maybe 10 cents or less of growth. In the 1950's, it is estimated that every dollar borrowed would generate 3 dollars of growth. That's a large part of the reason why all those trillions in bailouts, guarantees, subsidies, loans etc are having such negligible impact.

So we have trillions of borrowing and record spending to get a few paltry billions in 'growth'.

A debt saturated society is thus faced with two conundrums as time progresses.

1) The ability to service the debt plus interest declines steadily over time leading to cash flow problems.

2) The usefulness of that extra dollar of debt also steadily declines. Thus we are moving towards a point where for every dollar borrowed we have a contraction (I was going to use that ghastly word 'negative growth' but decided against it) due to debt saturation.

Hence, the marginal cost of taking on one more dollar of debt will become detrimental to society as a whole, as the marginal benefit of that one more dollar is negative. This is precisely how societies decline and as in our present debt based monetary system, the principal must be paid with interest by society as a whole in one form or the other.

This is either done through:

1) A deflationary depression where debt is defaulted upon and living standards plummet and millions are left broke and homeless - a societal disaster.

2) A hyperinflation that leads to the complete debasement of the currency and the utter failure of the monetary system - a societal disaster.

Some deflationistas focus on the mechanics that will make deflation the driving force initially and for the foreseeable future - constrained lending by banks, hoarding of cash, the inability of the Fed to keep pace with credit destruction and the unwillingness of foreigners to finance government deficits indefinitely as their balance sheets are constrained by declining export income (we're looking at China and Japan, the Gulf). When, but only when, an economy has become isolated enough can hyperinflation take place, and as a reaction to deflation. The American economy knows no such isolation, and can therefore not be hyperinflated at the moment. In five years, yes, but the world will be a whole different place by then.

By the way, actually paying back the debt is impossible in a system that requires constant debt creation just to keep even, remember the Red Queen in Alice of Wonderland? One has to run faster just to keep up.

So next year we look all set to see the beginning of shortages of goods and services in the western world, as companies go bust due to their target market having barely enough money to survive. Bank runs and heightened fear are highly possible, but always remember at the height of that fear, Mr. Market will once again create a slope of hope much like 2009, but much worse, because at the time it will look like a God-send, a "recovery is finally here" will be the cry across the land. Here the battered and the wounded will be given hope and motivation, only to be suckered into finding out they are yet again on a slope of hope.

The slope of hope that leads to the abyss. I hope one now appreciates and understands Ilargi's all time classic line, "Heads you lose, tails you die".
First
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12/20/2009 04:25 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
YOU CALL THAT BLUFF!!!
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 04:50 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
How is anyone in the US going to be able to AFFORD to pay their taxes and pay off that bailout?

Can you imagine if a business man did to an individual person what the US govt. and Fed are doing to the entire United States of America?
dance
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 05:09 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
Nah. Don't buy the author's position that the dollar will get stronger over the next few years. If that is the case, why is Bill Gross of PIMCO selling his Treasury holdings and going in all cash? Obviously, he sees inflation ahead, and is going super short term to keep pace with the eventual rise in interest rates as the world dumps our bonds. If deflation were actually on the horizon, I'd be buying 10 year notes and 30 year bonds like there was no tomorrow. But there will be a tomorrow; it's just going to be super ugly as rates soar through the roof with double digit inflation rates.
Dervish NLI
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12/20/2009 05:23 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
How is anyone in the US going to be able to AFFORD to pay their taxes and pay off that bailout?

Can you imagine if a business man did to an individual person what the US govt. and Fed are doing to the entire United States of America?
dance
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 526155



That debt cannot be paid off. Thats the plan anyway.
The only thing of value will be the LAND you own that can feed you when you can't afford to buy anything.
When the bossman says you work for 1 loaf of bread a day, you work for 1 loaf or you go hungry.

Hyperinflation will not occur because that debases the wealth of the elite. You know, the guys who run the system,they won't let it happen.

I have said for years on this site that the goal is to "put us in our place" by keeping us dumb and hungry and happy for scraps. Its serfdom all over again,except this time its permanent.

The only thing that will save us is the arrival of alien space brothers,Jesus V. II , the Mahdi or some form of global enlightenment. Since I do not buy into religion or have much faith in our fellow man, I went and bought a farm.

the last curse in pandoras box was hope.
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 05:24 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
No way.
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 05:52 PM
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Hyperinflation will not occur because that debases the wealth of the elite.
 Quoting: Dervish NLI 832592


they will have all the wealth they want when we are dead
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 06:04 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
"...the bottom will be in when the Dow/ Gold ratio reaches around 1..."

Gold bugs are right, gold is a storeholder of wealth. If the DOW declines to 5,000 then gold appreciates to 5,000. If the DOW declines to 500 it has fallen nearly 95% but gold has only fallen about 50%. Which would you rather hold?
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 06:07 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
1 more thing.

This time around it will be far worse than the Great Depression due to labor specialization. In the 1st Great Depression a much larger percentage of the population was involved in agriculture a very general profession. Now we have 1,000's of professional specializations dependent on the existing global economic structure. All those specializations will have to learn new skills, and the more specialized someone is, the harder will be the fall.

This does not end well.
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 06:11 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
go and watch myspacesecrets on youtube

here => [link to www.youtube.com]

He has been spot of for years.
ERIN
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12/20/2009 06:51 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
Not too long ago, a billion dollars in a governmental budget was a lot of money. Then we got into hundreds of billions. People understood that this was a lot, just because of all the zeros. Now, unfortunately, the number has become small: the world "trillion," as in $1.2 trillion for health care reform, seems so tiny. But it has 12 zeroes behind it, which is so easy to forget.

The total public debt is now at 141% of GDP. That puts the United States in some elite company--only Japan, Lebanon and Zimbabwe are higher. That's only the start. Add household debt (highest in the world at 99% of GDP) and corporate debt (highest in the world at 317% of GDP, not even counting off-balance-sheet swaps and derivatives) and our total debt is 557% of GDP. Less than three years ago our total indebtedness crossed 500% of GDP for the first time."

Add the unfunded portion of entitlement programs and we're at 840% of GDP.

The world has not seen such debt levels in modern history. This debt is not serviceable. Imagine that total debt is 557% of GDP, without considering entitlements. The interest on the debt will consume all the tax revenues of the country in the not-too-distant future. Then there will be no way out but to create more debt in order to finance the old debt.

It assures a period of economic devastation. In a last, desperate attempt, politicians at the federal and local levels will raise taxes to astronomical heights to raise revenues. And that only assures destruction of the economy. Forget the fable of economic recovery. Unless there is a change in Washington by next year's election, there will be no way to turn back.

Japan's recession is now 19 years old. It has the highest debt-to-GDP level (227%) of any industrialized country. The Fitch rating agency is talking about a potential downgrade of Japan's debt. Japan's stock market is still down 75% from the high in 1990. We predict it will make new bear market lows next year. That will make it a 20-year-long bull market [bear market makes more sense - Mish] on the way to 25 years. The bulls in the U.S. should consider that possibility in the formerly great United States of America.

I do not believe the bullish theory that the U.S. situation is different than Japan's. Ours is so much worse.


[link to globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com]
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 07:01 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
"...the bottom will be in when the Dow/ Gold ratio reaches around 1..."

Gold bugs are right, gold is a storeholder of wealth. If the DOW declines to 5,000 then gold appreciates to 5,000. If the DOW declines to 500 it has fallen nearly 95% but gold has only fallen about 50%. Which would you rather hold?
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 802656


Ding ding ding, we have a winner folks.


1. increase your pantry
2. pay off your debts
3. if you have any extra, gold/silver bullion.
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 07:20 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
Flaws in the Deflation Case

[link to www.bearishnews.com]
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 07:21 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
Don't Monetize the Debt
The president of the Dallas Fed on inflation risk and central bank independence.

[link to online.wsj.com]
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 07:43 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
Jim Willie sent out the following note this afternoon:

FW: contact with strong ties to info sources

huge demands for physical gold are coming from entities holding allocated gold accounts
they have deposits at gold bullion banks
they are showing up unannounced, with full paperwork, demanding gold to be handed over paperwork consists of lists, bars, dates, serial numbers, weights, and smelter hallmark brands
this is a full blown run on the bullion banks
it is unclear whether they only doubt their gold remains in possession, or if fake gold is held
they are being shown the stacks of shiny pretty gold bars, and urged not to take possession but the entities are not convinced their particular own gold bars are there
big clearing houses are owed gold bullion, and the bullion banks do not have it
at the same time, the delivery process has been corrupted big
cash bribes are being offered in bids to settle in cash without delivery in futures contracts in fact, the cash bribes are patterned in a reduction over consecutive days
this gives the impression of the extraordinary period being only a brief segment of time
this is a full blown run on the bullion banks
we are fast entering the FRAMEWORK of divergence between paper gold and physical gold
my source confirmed that the divergence is an end game symptom
geez! we might see a $970 gold price before the system just shuts down
this is a run on the gold banks
did I mention this is a run on the gold banks ??
soon we might not have any prices listed on the gold exchanges
soon we might hear of an important default, from a party using courts and legal staffs
soon the physical gold price will be some average of five known private party large volume traders
this is a run on the gold banks
/ jim

[link to harveyorgan.blogspot.com]
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 08:06 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
The Greatest Outpouring Of Money And Credit In History

12.7 trillion donated to bankers, solving a problem they created, buy bonds, or gamble in the markets? Inflation on the way, could the US default on its debt? Food aid and unemployment rising together, yet another bank collapse, Dubai bailed out.


[link to theinternationalforecaster.com]
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 08:36 PM
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US pensions go bust, gold crashes, China flops, Bunds soar, predicts Saxo


America's Social Security Trust Fund will go bankrupt; both gold and the Japanese yen will crash; and China's currency will devalue as bad loans catch up with the over-stretched banking system – all in the course of 2010.


[link to www.telegraph.co.uk]
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 08:47 PM
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This is true. The only thing people in the U.S. HAVE to do is die and pay taxes.

Well, I do my best to not pay taxes, and I am fighting dying every day!
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 09:18 PM
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<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=" [link to www.youtube.com] name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" [link to www.youtube.com] type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 09:21 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
Bob Chapman's analysis is very similar.

"It looks like the stock market is finally ready to rollover. It is in a well-defined head and shoulders pattern that began in September. This is what happens when trillions are given to the financial sector and a pittance to the public. This is a control planner’s formula for disaster. The present dollar rally could end at 78 or 80 and then the test of 71.18. Our government rigged this rally using the currency swaps they created out of thin air in March.

If banks do not increase lending by 20% in 2010, a second credit crisis will beset markets. Stocks are way over valued having baked in a strong recovery with the help of TARP funds. This market reminds us of the alcoholic who has to have a drink upon rising and says he is not an alcoholic. All Wall Street knows is profits and they could care less about unemployment. The debasement of our currency means nothing. Speculation wages again with no thought of lower financial profits in the first quarter and a distinct chance of a second credit crisis. Ignored is the government’s manipulative presence in the market, or market fundamentals. Today’s speculation reflects the lack of trust, confidence and lack of fiscal and monetary discipline. The theme is we had better make it while we can, because there may be no tomorrow. As a result the probability of a steep market correction is strong. What we are involved in economically and financially is not a common correction, it is a correction in a bear market and few, even professionals, see this. This happened in the early 1930s and by the end of 1940 we still had not exited depression. We had to arrange a war to extricate ourselves."

Much more at the link: [link to www.theinternationalforecaster.com]
Reality Is B.S

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12/20/2009 09:22 PM
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This is true. The only thing people in the U.S. HAVE to do is die and pay taxes.

Well, I do my best to not pay taxes, and I am fighting dying every day!
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 709239

Only a fool would pay taxes into this system at this point.
Throwing more erroneous useless information into the original arguement.
Anonymous Coward
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12/20/2009 09:28 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
their whole motivation is to collapse the economy. when you realize this, everything makes sense.

the people in charge are GLOBALISTS. their goal is WORLD WIDE DOMINATION.
Anonymous Coward
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Ireland
12/20/2009 09:34 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
"All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, nor from want of honor or virtue, so much as downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation."
--John Adams (1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd U.S. President

Still true, John Adams.
Still true.

verysad

The Real Cause of the Current Financial Crisis

[link to www.youtube.com]

"Lenin was certainly right. There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose." - John Maynard Keynes, 1919
[link to en.wikiquote.org]

"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as a result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved." - Ludwig Von Mises, Human Action, a Treatise on Economics, (Fox & Wilkes, 4th rev. ed., 1963)
[link to en.wikiquote.org]

Ten Lost Years

[link to www.youtube.com]

The Money That Is Sold Abroad Is You

[link to www.youtube.com]
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 773082
United States
12/20/2009 09:53 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
The global economic situation is unprecedented in history. The fact is nobody knows if we'll get hyperinflation or a super depression. My guess is that shadowstats has it right; hyperinflationary depression, the worst of both worlds. We'll soon find out...
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 839787
United States
12/20/2009 10:04 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
Excellent read OP. It is obvious that the dollar will rise at least on the short term due to all the debt defaults that are happening (and will happen). Just look at how gold fell from almost $1300 to its current levels.

I disagree though with the following assertions

1)Long-term treasuries will rise on the long term

This assumes that there will be constant demand for US treasuries, that US treasuries will always be perceived as risk free and that the US government will not run into any cash flow problems when it comes to debt service.

The ever increasing supply of treasuries seems to negate a lot of the appetite for demand, and there are simply not enough dollars to buy treasuries at this rate of increase (which is what China has mentioned recently). The increased supplies of treasuries and falling tax receipts will may lead to at least some to doubt the US's ability to repay its debt (this has already happened - check out the news regarding Australia's shadow finance minister's statements about the US debt). Finally, the burgeoning US debt will at some point bite the country's ass, for if the conditions mentioned earlier materialize (increased debt, falling demand due to shortage of dollars, falling tax receipts) and when sovereigns begin to publicly doubt the US's debt's risk free status then the country may have to default on its debt, or print its way through it.

2) Gold will fall to $600

This may be possible on the short term, but I find it highly unlikely on the long term. Since there is a strong chance that there will be problems in the treasury market, there seems to be two possible scenarios

**A failure in the treasury market (nobody wants to buy) will increase the dollar's value and lower gold's, but on the long run will be bullish for gold, as a debtor nation's failure to secure additional debt will ultimately lead to questions regarding its ability to repay them, which will naturally lead to doubts regarding the value of the currency it prints.

**A debt default on the part of the US will naturally lead to a decline in the value of the currency it prints, which is bullish for the dollar

Note that if either scenario materializes the US dollar will most likely lose its reserve status, which will lead to a decline in its value as its reserve status forms a large part of its appeal as a safe haven.

Also note that in the 1930s the dollar was pegged with gold (yes after 1933 gold was banned in US, but foreign countries could still exchange dollars for gold), thus the deflation which occurred in the 1930s could be attributable to a rise in the value of gold itself, and not necessarily the paper dollar. This is very likely especially given that gold was legal tender in the US prior to 1933.


Anyway I guess 2010 will be an interesting year. Good luck yall. Store non-perishable food (honey, white rice, sugar, canned food etc...)
Eagle # 1
User ID: 822411
United States
12/20/2009 10:18 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
ERIN .... All I can quote is the old expression that " Figures don't LIE, BUT, liers FIGURE."

You have a lot of correct figures, but your whole assumption on defationary sprial leaves OUT MANY variables, such as:
1. The government/crooked politicians/banksters ARE in control and they DON'T want their gravy train to derail !
2. The people ARE armed, and when denied food via price, shortage, whatever, they will NOT listen to hungry children cry and wives entrete them into SOME sort of action.
3. You ASSUME people with money buying bonds that pay 3.5 % in THIRTY YEARS, while inflation IS NOW at 7%.
4. You ASSUME bonds ARE the 'safe haven', while GOLD/SILVER has occupied THAT role for thousands of years.
5. You ASSUME that FIAT paper will STILL be accepted, while it's destruction continues around the world.
Voltare (Sp?) was right; "The intrinsic value of all FIAT money is ZERO."

Nice set of assumptions and well written. I see the hyperinflation FIRST; then the deflationary spiral, even though it seems that the trillions spent have not YET affected prices. But massive bank failures, as a result of the 500 Trillion in Derivatives overhanging the world, are STILL to make their appearance, along with the overvalued 'assets' in the banking system.

Eagle
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 822411
United States
12/20/2009 11:00 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
bump
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 845897
United States
12/20/2009 11:30 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
ERIN .... All I can quote is the old expression that " Figures don't LIE, BUT, liers FIGURE."

You have a lot of correct figures, but your whole assumption on defationary sprial leaves OUT MANY variables, such as:
1. The government/crooked politicians/banksters ARE in control and they DON'T want their gravy train to derail !
2. The people ARE armed, and when denied food via price, shortage, whatever, they will NOT listen to hungry children cry and wives entrete them into SOME sort of action.
3. You ASSUME people with money buying bonds that pay 3.5 % in THIRTY YEARS, while inflation IS NOW at 7%.
4. You ASSUME bonds ARE the 'safe haven', while GOLD/SILVER has occupied THAT role for thousands of years.
5. You ASSUME that FIAT paper will STILL be accepted, while it's destruction continues around the world.
Voltare (Sp?) was right; "The intrinsic value of all FIAT money is ZERO."

Nice set of assumptions and well written. I see the hyperinflation FIRST; then the deflationary spiral, even though it seems that the trillions spent have not YET affected prices. But massive bank failures, as a result of the 500 Trillion in Derivatives overhanging the world, are STILL to make their appearance, along with the overvalued 'assets' in the banking system.

Eagle
 Quoting: Eagle # 1 822411

whoa....that's a real ballsy call. fucking douchebag. growing tiresome of the armchair economists shoehorning every scenario to fit their collective thesis-which is invariably....gold to the moon.....hyperinflation.....all our debts can be paid off by going to work for 3 seconds. goldbugs need to pull their heads out before they get shit on. btw unless there is eternal hyperflation, it will be followed by deflation. again nice call eagle #dumbass
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 550635
United States
12/20/2009 11:43 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
How is anyone in the US going to be able to AFFORD to pay their taxes and pay off that bailout?

Can you imagine if a business man did to an individual person what the US govt. and Fed are doing to the entire United States of America?
dance
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 526155



Wait till cap and trade, health care reform kicks in. Then Emanuel takes all the youth and makes them work for free for three months a year. Wait till power bills triple from cap and trade.

They seek riots in order to collapse the dollar. They may eventually get it, but I believe they greatly underestimate the outcome. So far, everything they try is a failure. Their riot creation will be too.
Anonymous Coward
User ID: 845904
Canada
12/20/2009 11:46 PM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
I can sum this whole thread up with one emote.


bsflag
ERIN
User ID: 845708
United States
12/21/2009 12:01 AM
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Re: Death, Taxes, and Mr. Market Calling the bluff
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GLP