I am an experienced helicopter pilot in SoCal familiar with crash area. Ask me anything.

The charter rate is in the vicinity of $5,000 / flight hour, probably with standby time of $1,000 per hour. If Kobe owned the aircraft, and leased it back to the company, which would not really reflect on the registration document, he may have only been paying for the pilot at $1,000 / day or something similar, and paid only the actual operating cost of the aircraft, which may be half the charter price.

I’m not really answering your question, but the cyclic, which is in the pilot’s right hand (the stick), controls pitch and roll and has the most effect on helicopter attitude.

Thanks for your answers Max!

One minute of Ass-Puckering-Fear... Just doesn't seem enough for a reggiN Rapist?

?

The engine sound of the aircraft will change as attitude and power settings are changed when they were struggling to regain control as well as the Doppler effect with a low, passing aircraft.

I can’t know for certain, obviously, but it would be an extreme coincidence and a very, very low probability that they flew for 45 minutes with no engine trouble, yet had engine trouble in the last 30 seconds of the flight at the exact same time they accidentally entered the clouds.

Anyway, the NTSB will be able to ascertain whether the engines were spinning normally on impact by the damage pattern of the turbine wheels on the engine casing, on the amount and quality of fuel remaining in the fuel controls and other indicators.

In every aviation accident you’ll hear some witness say that the engine or aircraft was on fire. Every. Single. Time. It’s what people have seen in movies and expect to see in real life.

Even if this aircraft lost one engine, it has another. This is a twin engine aircraft for that reason. At lower gross weights, it was certified in transport category to be able to fly away, with one engine inoperative.

That’s actually quite a normal turbine sound as an aircraft passes by. The building in noise you hear is the Doppler effect, which changes tone as the aircraft passes by.

The shrill tone you hear throughout is simply the sound of a jet turbine engine. The turbines turn at 40-50,000 rpm and produce a very, very high frequency whine. It produces that oscillating sound for several reasons: High frequency sound waves are easily distorted by interference and echo, much more than low frequency sound. The air can carry a good portion of wave cleanly and distort the next as the wind or temperature of the air layer changes. It even over-modulates your ear drum like it does on a speaker, (or the low quality mic on the ring doorbell) and your hearing ability changes.

That clip is not an indication of a malfunctioning engine.

You’re welcome kpm. I’ve enjoyed your posts over the years. I have to ask, is that your hair in your avatar?, because it looks quite like Kate Beckinsale too.

Last Edited by MaxTork on 01/29/2020 04:23 PM

Nyuk-Nyuk-Nyuk...!

"Jerry" Cock-Arian...? It doesn't get much more obvious?

Standing outside Church... Drinking Coffee...?

I guess it COULD happen?

It sounds like a Crisis-Actor standard Shill-O-Rama story to me?
?

Some pilots have reported helicopters flying low in LA are sometimes shot at by gangs.

I’m here because I’ve been a regular on GLP for years, but haven’t had much opportunity to offer expert opinion. In this area, I am actually an expert. I’ve been flying many different types of helicopters over 30 years, in many different places, but also have in depth knowledge of SoCal and the area of the crash. ......and there was, immediately following the crash, a bunch of nonsense statements being made regarding the accident.

I don't believe that and it wasn't my intention for it to come off that way. I have enjoyed your explanations very much.

adding to that... when I said "assumes everyone to be dumb" I did not mean you personally assume that although my wording was poor - I meant the explanations in the "news" that it was merely weather or as simple as the pilot making one fatal error. At best it was a combo of weather and a series of bad decisions, true. But I have trouble believing nobody on board spoke up - that they all just went along. But you addressed some of those issues. I still believe there is a big piece of the equation missing.
Do you think they will release any text messages that may have been sent via anyone on board or examine that angle for more info?

Hi JoJo,

I wasn’t ignoring your question. I was actually saving it for last. I’m not a heavy airplane guy, so take my opinion here with a grain of salt. Maybe a passing airline guy can add some comments later.

Prologue - Boeing is a very old company dating back to the barnstorming days and canvas wings. The original airline pilots in the 1930’s were old barnstormers, mail pilots or survivors of World War I. These guys were true stick-and-rudder guys.

Not much really changed in aviation over time. Oh sure, the aircraft size and capabilities improved, but the pilots came up the same way, through crop dusting, banner towing, bush flying or a hundred other things, things that really taxed the skills of an aviator and taught them how to fly anything, in any condition and still land on the numbers. Read Ernest K Gann, “Fate is the Hunter”
When new aircraft types and models came out, (and they never come into the field perfect) these class of pilots wrung them out. I can imagine a conversation going like this:

“Yeah, when I put the flaps into that one setting, the aircraft tried to flip over on it’s back. It’s no big deal, I put in opposite aileron and full rudder. It still landed like a dream”

Boeing goes back and re-designs the flaps and all is well. New designs are like that. The first customers are an extension of the flight test program.

Fast forward a few years. Automation has come into the industry. There are systems on the aircraft to compensate for everything. The pilot has very little to do except monitor the systems. Even if the pilots still come from stick-and-rudder-ville, they lose those skills to disuse.

At some point, pilots aren’t even coming into the industry with those skills anymore. Today it’s possible to get a rating in an aircraft, even the most complex airliner out there, by flying only it’s simulator. If it’s legal, or not restricted by regulation, someone will do it.

Today when a malfunction occurs in the aircraft a pilot may not have the stick-and-rudder skills to fly out of it. They may only know memorized systems routines.

1) If X malfunction occurs. - Press B Button
then
2) If malfunction condition continues. - Re-engage B Button, Press C button

Etc.

It’s more like a hacker trying to hack into a computer than a pilot flying an aircraft.

When the 737 Max had it’s problem, and went into an unusual attitude, it was not a former barnstormer or banner tower at the controls, it was a hacker.

Button B didn’t work. Button C didn’t work, Button D didn’t work. All the while the aircraft is careening out of the sky. The companies and governments are now involved. Boeing will be forced to install better buttons.

Last Edited by MaxTork on 01/29/2020 05:13 PM

One major frustrating thing in these crashes without cockpit voice recorders is that we can’t pin-point the exact causes of why they went too far. Was it macho? Was it distraction? Was it pressure to keep going? We need to crack the Mystery.

That would be a fascinating study if text messages came out during this accident progression. If they exist, I’m sure TMZ will find a way to buy and release them

Your reasoning was very sound regarding the pilots mind with regard to his state of mind during the flight (afraid to lose his job) etc. That said, Bryant struck me as the kind of guy that you don't tell him what do...he's a I'll tell you what to do or else kind of guy.

Of course, if I was worth north of 500 Million Dollars, I'd probably be the same way.

Anyway, given the amount of time Bryant spent in helicopters I'm sure he knew he was in trouble long before trouble found him...that said, I'm surprised that he didn't command the pilot to land that helicopter...maybe I'm overthinking the matter but that's something I would've done.

Not that it matters now...

What do you think?

Hey Hey We're The Monkees

OP, I love your thread and your answers and I hope this isn't a stupid question or that I didn't misunderstand what was said about the probably final moment.

If the helicopter rose in an attempt to get above the fog, then dashed forward and down until it crashed due to pilot disorientation, I can't help but wonder why after rising with no visibility the pilot didn't just hover in place to give himself time to make an assessment, maybe communicate the situation to his client, provide options, apologize for the delay, and maybe even slowly start descending.

I can't understand anyone rising up to get out of the fog, finding themselves still in the fog, then deciding on forward motion into the unknown.

What would have caused the disorientation you described before the crash, but after the the vertical rise?

From what I've seen of videos shot from helicopters, they can pretty easily stay in one spot, can't they?

Excellent question!

I'd like to know also!

This happened to me in a fixed wing. Complete head trip. I had a senior pilot in the backseat and he took over as soon as he heard me say “ack wtf”. Still remember how weird a sensation it was and how fast things went from normal to fucked.

Thank you!

Well put. AT TOP SPEED horizontally and top speed down too. You don't go top speed if you are disorientated. Period.

OP, have you seen this video?

[link to twitter.com (secure)]

Does anything sound odd in this video?

If so, what?

Best question on here, great point

When they reached whatever peak altitude they reached, you’re assuming that he was in control. He wasn’t. He had no perception, whatsoever of where he was in space. That moment was quickly followed by the dive. All points along that path felt the same to him.

A helicopter is an inherently unstable aircraft. Flying the aircraft is a continuous series of small motor movements by the pilot in response to deviations from some visual reference, like keeping a spot on the windscreen aligned with a distant outside object. You make hundreds of subconscious control movements a minute, with both hands and feet to keep the aircraft aligned. Take away that visual reference and immediately the pilot begins to overcontrol. The pilot tries to substitute the only sense he has left, the G force sensation for the visual sense he lost. With G forces, a turn feels the same as a climb, a nose over feels the same as reducing a bank.

You’d have to really experience it to understand, but the loss of visual reference while flying is extremely disorienting.

If by odd you mean malfunctioning, I would say no. That’s a normal sound of a turbine helicopter going by. You have the high-frequency squeal of the engines, which is the dominant audio source, but there’s also the low beat of the main rotor discernible, with maybe a medium-frequency tail rotor growl in there indicating a turn.

If anything surprises me it’s that the aircraft seemed to pass slower than I would have expected from the speed reports.

Except that he had a radar altimeter (showing the ground approaching) and a classic computerized PFD (Primary Flight Display) showing attitude, pitch, roll, and the horizon). You insist with 100% certainty that a dead person is guilty, but IMO that's guesswork at best and disinfo at worst. That said, to your credit is that you are a glp oldtimer.

Last Edited by confused_but_not_idiot on 01/30/2020 01:04 PM

Of course you can never be 100% certain when you weren’t on board, however, the same hallmarks, from scores of other IIMC spatial disorientation accidents, are there,

Yes he did have a PFD and a RadAlt, but never got the aircraft stable enough for them to be of any benefit.

The aircraft also had an autopilot, which could have flown the aircraft out of there, had it been in use.

OK I love how these accidents take on a life of their own. I am not a licensed pilot but been up in and flown many friends airplanes and helicopters over the last 45 years also taking lessons, studying and an avid reader of flight magazines, watching shows about crashes and investigating them and being in law enforcement 33 years including a Team Leader in traffic crash reconstruction and traffic homicide. Number 1 do not put a lot of faith in witnesses unless you spoke to them personally or have all the information including follow up questions. Number 2 if there is heavy fog and you cannot see the required distance or know you will enter heavy fog or could cover you are not able to fly in cancel the flight. Number 3 this is an IFR equipped helicopter certified to fly in very poor weather as this helicopter was designed to fly out to oil platforms over the ocean hundreds of miles. Number 4 given the terrain this pilot who supposedly skilled in flying this area was way too low. I would want to be 2500' given any TV or radio towers and hills or mountains peaking at 1800'-2000'. The Flight Aware tracking shows a period of time the helicopter slowed way down to speeds of 50 to 70 MPH. You can see the heading keep changing. This is a sign of the pilot being disoriented which is very dangerous if you do not watch your instruments. As far as a witness that actually did not see the crash but said they heard sputtering from the engine prior to the impact. This was a twin turbine helicopter and turbine engines do not usually make sputtering noises that would be a piston engine. Possibly they heard the rotors hitting the hillside as the helicopter flew into it at an angle damaging the rotor blades until the fuselage impacted the hillside. I don't know if this helicopter had upgraded avionics since it was the B generation with D being the newest being S76-D. If the pilot had an iPad or tablet running many different flight planning software's would show him where he's at and pick out a safe spot to land. Most fog in our area in Florida burns off by 10 AM. Asking the ATC for VFR flight following me when you have an IFR equipped helicopter is beyond me. It'll take the NTSB a year or 2 to close this case out. Also helicopter can hover giving the pilot an opportunity to determine his location and make a decision on what options he had and which to choose. Sadly this probably could have been avoided. When pilots are often in a hurry to get somewhere or try to beat beat bad weather often ends in tragedy. IFR would have been his safest choice. You are given airspace set aside for your aircraft with other aircraft safely spaced around you and he had a helicopter with an 18,000' service ceiling but limited to 10,000' without supplemental oxygen. I saw many people posting outrageous things like why did they get rid of navigators or the chain to the tail rotor broke. Wow chains on the tail rotor was that on the first helicopter they broke? And navigators are still used on large military or civilian aircraft that required them. Newer aircraft technology doesn't require it do to upgrading instruments and on board systems. I don't think this helicopter had a chain. Sadly looking at the Ariel photo's it appears the helicopter flew into terrain. The debris field is narrow and widens out after impact.

The helicopter wasn't equipped with a terrain system. It seems very strange that a pilot who transports celebrities, not just Kobe, wouldn't have his helicopter in top-notch condition with all of the safety features.,,

IMO this would be the single most damning thing against the pilot, but I was under the impression that it was ATC that ordered him to use VFR instead of IFR (visual instead of instruments). Here's part of the transcript:

Burbank tower: 317P Burbank tower. You can expect a few minutes; I got a special VFR helicopter I need to get to transitioning. He’s been holding for about 15 minutes. … Northwest, follow the 5 Freeway. Maintain special VFR, special VFR conditions at or below 2,500 [feet].

Helicopter: Maintain special VFR at or below 2,500 [feet], [follow] I-5 northbound. 2EchoX.

Of course, we don't have the full transcript yet. The full flight path including who got on when. We don't have unedited audio recordings of the ATCs. We don't have the active radar data that have. And a lot more stuff, like traffic cameras that probably showed the crash. Why withhold all this from us? What do you have to hide?

A clue that something serious was wrong, more than a slight mis-aiming of the aircraft is the lack of any apparent replies from SoCal ATC.

Last Edited by confused_but_not_idiot on 01/30/2020 11:24 PM

I would think the pilot requested the special VFR as in fog and dense low clouds VFR aircraft would not be allowed to fly at all. Most law enforcement helicopters ate not IFR equipped so they cannot fly in poor weather. As I stated before this model helicopter was designed for sea rescue and oil rig transport then modified for executive transport. It was designed to fly hundreds of miles over very bad weather in the ocean. Sadly many options could have prevented this tragedy bit until the NTSB looks at everything we won't know and it's only their best gathering of the evidence and facts. Clearly if you become disoriented and panic things go bad fast. Panic is the worst thing. I see no reason why he would not use auto pilot and fly IFR if the helicopter was equipped and his training and practice up to date. Clearly you can see once he's notified he's too low to track he climbs at 1400 fpm prior to impact. If he could have banked hard left or right possibly he could have avoided impact. I myself would like to be way above anything you can hot in poor weather. Altitude can be your best friend for many reasons. Supposedly Kobe chartered this helicopter with this pilot. I would have preferred to have upgraded navigation with synthetic vision and situational awareness as well as TCAS. Also regarding the questions about hovering and waiting you need to see a reference point to do that unless you have auto pilot hover. You need to see an object to make constant corrections to correct for wind and torque changes in the rotor head and tail rotor. Kennedys nephew got killed flying a new faster RG airplane and no IFR training who flew to Martha's Vineyard but it got dark and fog rolled in. He couldn't feel he was bankjng because he didn't watch his instruments and lost altitude flying into the ocean. Your ears don't feel the motion like walking without a visual reference and you can put the plane into a bank without realizing it and it'll keep banking until you stall or fly into the sea, ground or other fixed object. We had a medical helicopter fly into a TV tower guy wire on a sunny clear day killing all on board. You always have to be aware of what's around your and scan your instruments at least every minute or two.