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Avro Arrow Shes Back!

 
Sgt.HardWood
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Avro Arrow Shes Back!
A history lesson young people.
Other countries have for generations been developing technology.
How far have we come since the stealth tech was shown in the gulf war?



Avro Arrow 1958 specs. They were this far ahead 1958, How far ahead do you think they might be now?


Credit to Jim100 AB

A short synopsis of the Arrow
The Arrow as Fighter-Interceptor
RCAF AIR 7-3 Specification and the C-105

Avro Canada and the RCAF examined a range of alternative sizes and configurations for a supersonic interceptor, culminating in RCAF "Specification AIR 7-3" in April 1953.

This AIR 7-3 specification called specifically for a crew of two and a twin-engine design requiring a range of 556 kilometers (300 nautical miles (nm) for a normal low speed mission and 370 km (200 nm) for a high-speed intercept mission.

It also specified operation from a 1,830 meter (6,000 ft) runway, a Mach 1.5 cruising speed, an altitude capability of 21,336 m (70,000 ft), and a maneuvering capability for 2 “g” turns with no loss of speed or altitude at Mach 1.5 at 15,240 m (50,000 ft).

The specification also stipulated just five minutes from starting the aircraft's engines to reaching an altitude of 15,250 m (50,000 ft) at Mach 1.5.

It was also to have turn-around time on the ground of less than 10 minutes. (Jim100 AB that’s Refueled and rearmed and ready for another mission)

An RCAF team then visited US aircraft companies and also surveyed British and French manufacturers before concluding that no existing or planned aircraft could fulfill these demanding requirements.

In May 1953, Avro delivered a report,

"Design Study of Supersonic All-Weather Interceptor Aircraft", outlining the major features of an updated C-104/2 design, which was now known as the C-105. A change to a thin "shoulder-mounted" delta wing allowed rapid access to the aircraft's internal systems, weapons bay, and engines. This thin wing was required for supersonic flight and the delta design provided the lightest structure

A big advantage of the computer flight control system was that it allowed the Arrow’s designers to design into the plane marginal or even negative stability factors, another first (by many years). The Arrow was intentionally designed to accept marginal stability, going from moderately positive to neutral on the pitch axis, and from slightly positive to moderately negative on the yaw axis. Because of the extra instability in the yaw axis, every aspect of it was at least double redundant except the single redundant hydraulic actuator itself. Perhaps now you can appreciate how truly advanced the Arrow was. We weren’t able to really compare it to anything until today because there was nothing to compare it to until today. Flight performance envelope graphs, accumulated and transposed by R.L. Whitcomb for his book Avro Aircraft & Cold War Aviation shows that no medium or long-range armed fighter---to this day---could match the Arrow’s 1G combat weight performance curve, except the F-22 Raptor.

They wrote the book in terms of the modern method, yet the book had to be written all over again once Avro was killed and the engineers dispersed.

The Arrow and the IBM 704 computer

In 1955 Avro had projected the performance of the Mk2 Iroquois powered Arrow to be

Maximum speed of Mach 1.9 at 50,000 feet.

Combat speed of Mach 1.5 at 50,000 feet while sustaining a 1.84 turn without bleeding energy Time to 50,000 feet of 4.1 minutes.

500 foot per minute (fpm) climb ceiling of 62,000 feet (i.e. able to climb at 500
fpm from this height)

400 nm (nautical miles) radius of action on high-speed mission.

630 nm radius of action on a low-speed (including 5 minutes supersonic combat)
mission


Ferry range is not given but estimated at 1,500 nm

However, and to the elation of the Arrow designers and company in general the Arrow Mk 1, with about 40% less thrust then the Mk 2 and more weight, actually exceeded Avro’s own higher 1955 estimates for the Arrow Mk 2 by exceeding Mach 1.9. By October of 1958 due to test flying Avro was able to refine the drag estimates, feed them into the IBM 704 computer, and produce accurate projections that indicated 20% lower supersonic drag at maximum performance then even they themselves had projected.

Due to this exceptional performance Avro knew the Mk 3 would be capable of considerable more than Mach 2.5. With improved materials and a new intake design that would be efficient at Mach 2.2 and above, Avro knew they would have an Arrow capable of at least Mach 3. This was nearly ten years before the SR-71 Blackbird or the Mig-25 Foxbat flew, suggesting Avro had an excellent advantage over the competition---given the freedom to exploit it.

Performance Report 15 included the empirically refined performance projections and figures this document indicated that the Arrow Mk 2 would have remained the top-performing fighter-interceptor in virtually all categories until the advent of the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor.

In fact an enormous amount of verbiage has been expended in claims that the Arrow would not have been manoeuvrable, based merely on the perceptions of it being such a large aircraft. In reality it was not that much bigger than the F-101 Voodoo or an F-15 Eagle, Neither of which would have seriously challenged an Arrow Mk 2 in a combat air patrol or, “top cover” or “air superiority” mission.

Furthermore, size means nothing in determining aircrafts manoeuvrability potential. It can however, be calculated based on five factors. In comparison with any of the
aircraft built at the time and since in similar roles, from any country, the Arrow appears to have had attributes which would have given superior manoeuvrability to virtually any plane to this date---save the F-22 Raptor which has reverted to internal weapons carriage and a relatively low wing loading.

Aeronautical engineers are welcome to debunk this.

Last Edited by I lick public toilet seats on 01/19/2021 10:33 PM
P.L.U.R.

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01/19/2021 04:34 PM
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
Great aircraft but politics got in the way.
Noted GLP Authority

(!) This claim about Godlike Productions is disputed.
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2021 04:35 PM
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
Nasa and American should thanks Canadians and German who really put on earth USa.

They are the ancestor of NASA and Americans jets
Anonymous Coward
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01/19/2021 04:42 PM
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
If a B-58, F-106, and MiG-23 had a three way that is what the baby would look like.

cruise
Sgt.HardWood  (OP)

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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
First flight March 1958




Last Edited by I lick public toilet seats on 01/19/2021 08:07 PM
Sgt.HardWood  (OP)

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01/19/2021 06:36 PM
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
No need for F-35
Shes already been test flown.
The MK V Super Arrow.For security reasons an animation is provided.




Last Edited by I lick public toilet seats on 01/19/2021 08:10 PM
Sgt.HardWood  (OP)

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01/19/2021 06:51 PM
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
FAA Tapes, proving test flight.


New evidence offers great detail of the bizarre event and provides unprecedented insight into how such a unique incident is dealt with in real time.

[link to www.thedrive.com (secure)]

Last Edited by I lick public toilet seats on 01/19/2021 11:14 PM
Sgt.HardWood  (OP)

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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
Great aircraft but politics got in the way.
 Quoting: P.L.U.R.


Shes back!
Is this what they saw?


Last Edited by I lick public toilet seats on 01/19/2021 08:00 PM
Sgt.HardWood  (OP)

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01/19/2021 08:14 PM
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
Obviously I picked the wrong day to make this thread.
:(
lol

Last Edited by I lick public toilet seats on 01/20/2021 12:39 AM
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
The FAA tapes really make you wonder.
Anonymous Coward
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01/20/2021 06:48 PM
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
Middle engine will overheat like a Yamaha XS-750.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
The Avro Bourdeau Aerospace 21rst Century All Weather Made in Canada 5th Generation CF-105 MK3
Crew of 2 with Ejection Survival Capsule : Pilot and Mission Specialist
Wing Area: 1225 Sq ft / 113.8 m2
Wing Loading: 46.5 lbs/ft2 (226.9 kg/m2)
Thrust to Weight (50% Fuel) : 1.55
Powerplant : 2 X Orenda Iroquois 3 Turbojet Engines
Dry Thrust : 2 X 32,000 lbs (64,000 lbs Total)
Wet Thrust (afterburners) 2 X 40,000 lbs ( 80,000 lbs Total)
Max Speed (@ Max Altitude) Mach 3.5 (2398 mph+ / 3887 kph)
Supercruise : Yes @ Mach 2.5
Range : 1620 n miles / 3,000 km
Combat Radius : 723 n mi / 1340 km (plus air to air refueling)
Service Ceiling : 80,000 + ft
Sgt.HardWood  (OP)

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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
The Avro Bourdeau Aerospace 21rst Century All Weather Made in Canada 5th Generation CF-105 MK3
Crew of 2 with Ejection Survival Capsule : Pilot and Mission Specialist
Wing Area: 1225 Sq ft / 113.8 m2
Wing Loading: 46.5 lbs/ft2 (226.9 kg/m2)
Thrust to Weight (50% Fuel) : 1.55
Powerplant : 2 X Orenda Iroquois 3 Turbojet Engines
Dry Thrust : 2 X 32,000 lbs (64,000 lbs Total)
Wet Thrust (afterburners) 2 X 40,000 lbs ( 80,000 lbs Total)
Max Speed (@ Max Altitude) Mach 3.5 (2398 mph+ / 3887 kph)
Supercruise : Yes @ Mach 2.5
Range : 1620 n miles / 3,000 km
Combat Radius : 723 n mi / 1340 km (plus air to air refueling)
Service Ceiling : 80,000 + ft
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 76548912


Service Ceiling : 80,000 + ft!!!
Thats a space plane. The Blackbird flew that high but was not an interceptor or have the capabilities that this bird is designed for. Holy Shit Batman.

[link to scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net (secure)]

[link to scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net (secure)]

Last Edited by I lick public toilet seats on 01/25/2021 06:32 PM
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
80000 feet = flatearth

no one is going to the moon or mars,

just ripping u off, like covid.


cool plane in the 60s
Sgt.HardWood  (OP)

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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
80000 feet = flatearth

no one is going to the moon or mars,

just ripping u off, like covid.


cool plane in the 60s
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75206889


Actually, 50`s.
Above post has pics also and if you listen to the FAA recordings above I think you will be convinced that they are indeed testing this already. Not the same plane of course.
:)

Another pic
[link to scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net (secure)]

Last Edited by I lick public toilet seats on 01/25/2021 06:39 PM
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
Awesome thread OP!

My eyes say delta Dagger/Dart/Buccaneer

Damn...drill presses chuckle

What a landing..thanks I enjoyed that.
Anonymous Coward
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Anonymous Coward
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02/04/2021 05:18 PM
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
I believe they have taken over the YF23 and combined it with the arrow.

Anonymous Coward
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
I believe they have taken over the YF23 and combined it with the arrow.


 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 79342606


What a heartbreaking story, much like that of the arrow.
All those hours of blood sweat and tears put into a program. That program was your heart, and then they rip it from you while you are still alive. Very sad.
:(
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
these are the last human fighter planes.they are more of a makework project than actually needed.
there is nothing now or in the future thats as lethal as the navy stealth drone.it is a suicide god of lethality.no mercy.
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
these are the last human fighter planes.they are more of a makework project than actually needed.
there is nothing now or in the future thats as lethal as the navy stealth drone.it is a suicide god of lethality.no mercy.
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 6486039


No kidding. Could be a 13 yr. old kid controlling it from his bedroom on a x-box.
Scarey shit.
Enders Game.
Bandito del Cielo  (OP)

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Katipo

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03/23/2021 11:33 PM

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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
Great aircraft but politics got in the way.
 Quoting: P.L.U.R.


Yes american politics.
Any sarcasm in this post is purely intentional.
Dave2545

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03/24/2021 12:28 AM
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
Yes, it was a HOT plane ahead of its time.

Yes, politics-Canadian Army & Navy didn't want

to give up Money to the air force.

The Progressive Conservative goobermunt had campaigned

against the Liberals excess Spending.(politics)

The first flight came on the DAY that

THE SOVIET UNION LAUNCHED SPUTNIK which caused

a REVOLUTION IN WAR THINKING.

The Canadian goobermunt could NOT afford to spend

on NEW aircraft and pay for American USA Bomarc

nuclear missiles(anti-aircraft) BOTH.

Solution chosen was:

" Canada's alternative to the Arrow was to purchase some American McDonnell F-101 Voodoo interceptors and Bomarc B missiles.[82][84][85]"


"The decision immediately put 14,528 Avro employees, as well as nearly 15,000 other employees in the Avro supply chain of outside suppliers, out of work.[86] "

See next post for BENEFIT TO THE USA.
Dave2545
Dave2545

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AFTERMATH-Brain Drain to the USA.

"Following the cancellation of the Avro Arrow project, CF-105 chief aerodynamicist Jim Chamberlin led a team of 25 engineers to NASA's Space Task Group to become lead engineers, program managers, and heads of engineering in NASA's manned space programs—projects Mercury, Gemini and Apollo.[95] The Space Task Group team eventually grew to 32 Avro engineers and technicians, and became emblematic of what many Canadians viewed as a "brain drain" to the United States.[95]

Among the former Arrow team engineers to go south were Tecwyn Roberts (NASA's first flight dynamics officer on Project Mercury and later director of networks at the Goddard Space Flight Center) John Hodge (flight director and manager on the cancelled Space Station Freedom project), Dennis Fielder (director of the Space Station Task Force, later the Space Station), Owen Maynard (chief of the LM engineering office in the Apollo Program Office), Bruce Aikenhead, and Rod Rose (technical assistant for the Space Shuttle program).[96][97]

Many other engineers, including Jim Floyd, found work in either the UK or the United States. Work undertaken by both Avro Canada and Floyd benefited supersonic research at Hawker Siddeley, Avro Aircraft's UK parent, and contributed to programs such as the HSA.1000 supersonic transport design studies, influential in the design of the Concorde.[98][99]"

[link to en.wikipedia.org (secure)]
Dave2545
Big Duke6

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03/24/2021 01:50 AM

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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
bump
Lance Roseman From BC

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03/24/2021 01:54 AM
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
bump
 Quoting: Big Duke6


Ya, for once agree with that fellow...bump!
If you are not busy weaving your own magick, you are trapped in anothers spell.
“It’s time you realized that you have something in you more powerful and miraculous than the things that affect you and make you dance like a puppet.” – Marcus Aurelius
Lance Roseman From BC

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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
helicopter
 Quoting: ~NiKkI~



Oh, you came back. God Bless you oddity.































oh, you came back...good on ya.
If you are not busy weaving your own magick, you are trapped in anothers spell.
“It’s time you realized that you have something in you more powerful and miraculous than the things that affect you and make you dance like a puppet.” – Marcus Aurelius
BadProgBad

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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
80000 feet = flatearth

no one is going to the moon or mars,

just ripping u off, like covid.


cool plane in the 60s
 Quoting: Anonymous Coward 75206889


They lie to us about everything.
All enemies, foreign and domestic.
TheRealRebel

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Copyright Disclaimer under section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for “fair use” for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, education and research
Anonymous Coward
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Re: Avro Arrow Shes Back!
With computer stabilizers you can make a rock fly.





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