For christians:The scriptural PROOF that the Rapture is AFTER the tribulation. NO "Basis" here..PROOF!

No one here is calling unbelievers elect. That is a straw man fallacy.

Perhaps a misunderstanding.

People will get saved during the Tribulation. They will go to heaven if they then die, or will live on into the Millennial Kingdom if they survive.

More generally, I believe the Great Tribulation, of which I believe the Wrath of God falls within, will be shortened for the sake of the elect. I do not think they need to be separated in this context.

I forgot to mention an important part of this real Last Trump:

Yom Teruah is known as the day no one knows. It's called this because it comes only after 2 witnesses spot the New Moon of the month from Jerusalem. If it is cloudy on the expected day, they wait until the next day and look again then. This exact day and beginning of the year is not known. It is a secret day, a day in which we know not.

So the 'Last Trump' shofar is always blown on a day which we know not. Sound familiar?

No where in Scripture describes Dispensational dogma that forces terms like elect on those who might believe but currently disbelieve.

This nonsense makes a mockery of the Gospels.

This Pre-Trib nonsense is as heretical as homosexual marriage!

Everyone is born into sin. Everyone is a sinner.

Therefore, everyone disbelieves and is not of the elect UNTIL they later believe and become one of the elect.

It is the same for all people at all times.

No one is born an 'elect.'

That's another fallacy, from an argumentative perspective. Two different issues are are attempting to compare together in order to try to discredit one by association with the other.

"2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."- John 14:2-3

Where is the Father's House?

Where did Yahshua go when He was raptured?

From where will He come when He comes again?

Where will we be when we are in the place He prepares for us in His Father's House?

When will this happen?

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8 pages of self righteous dicks arguing about a fairytale thats never going to happen.


Wall of text vrs wall of text with 0 mind changes.


Hell is being locked in a room with 2 opposing rapturetards with no way out.

Way to be the Devils Advocate. Next good and evil are interchangeable.

If you die before you are saved, will you go to heaven? No, of course not.

Then are you an 'elect' when you die in sin? No.

Then are you an 'elect' if you go to hell after death unsaved? Of course not.

You are only deemed an 'elect' when you are saved, not before.

You can argue predestination, but that still requires you to be saved first.

Do you deny that people will be saved during the Tribulation?

So if people can be saved during the Tribulation, they will be called 'elect' right?

They will become 'saints' and they will be living in the Tribulation, so therefore they will be Tribulation Saints that are the 'elect' in the Tribulation.

Simple

There's more. 144,000 Jewish people will come to believe in Yahshua(Jesus) as their Messiah during the Tribulation. In so doing, they will be called Messianic Jews. And they will evangelize Israel, helping to convert that nation over to Yahshua.
And these Jews will also be called the 'elect.'

None of this is advocating for the devil. None of this is suggesting swapping good for evil. These are gross baseless accusations unless you can show some scripture detailing why the devil advocates this. Which he doesn't. He would rather you think you have to work and earn your way through the Tribulation to be saved by your own hands (while he reigns there and can more easily convert or kill you), for he is the author of Secular Humanism and of lies and of confusion.

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Yet another person who refuses to read the opening post.

72291566

You have run the good race, and explained it as well as you can numerous times.

You are casting pearls before swine. They just have become intransigent instead of critical thinkers.

Hearing only what they want to hear.

And knowing only what they heard.

Most Christians don't read the Bible deeply, but rely upon others to do the heavy lifting.

Once you start intensive study, often due to passionate belief or taking witnessing classes, then the Pre-Tribulation Rapture dogma doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Then when you find out about all of Dispensational theology, from Darby to Scofield to present day, you see how heretical it ALL is.

The Pre-Tribbers would be wise to do this last bit.

I certainly that the great falling away will be due to massacred Christians during the Great Tribulation. They have bet the farm on unbiblical saved by the bell Rapture theology, and when it doesn't save them, they will lose their faith.

Lots will take the mark of the Beast.

I fully expect martyrdom in my lifetime.

It's my personal belief that Jihadists and the Mahdi will play a role as sexual slavery, torture, and beheadings of Christians are happening now.

The OP is right. Congratulations mate!

Especially telling is Scofield was a MASON.

Look it up.

I have read it.

And I have refuted it, in detail:

Here's my line-by-line rebuttal of the OP's prolific article: [link to tr.im (secure)]

And so have others here.

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Not at all. I have studied the OP's article in detail. And much critical thought has gone into my scriptural rebuttal of the OP's position. I encourage you to read and critique my rebuttal in detail.

Here's my line-by-line rebuttal, with ample scriptural evidence, of the OP's opening and prolific article: [link to tr.im (secure)]

I too have thought about my casting of pearls before the swine, but if other non-biased readers can gain anything useful from this discussion, then I'll consider my contending for the faith to be a success.

Be a Berean.

Peace

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So nice that so many people can devote their energies to specious garbage like this, rather than wasting their time feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, healing the sick and shit like that.

I believe in studying the bible deeply and intensively. I think we should all do it to discern difficult to understand truths, with much prayer for understanding.

And I have discovered that not only does Pretribulationism stand up to scrutiny, it has become clear to me that it, and Classical Dispensationalism it is a part of, encompasses the totality of End Times theology better than any other theories.

And if you dislike Dispensationalism, then please offer a valid alternative End Times theology in detail for our dissection and discussion.

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So called rebuttal was conjecture and guesses and based mostly on what that mason scofield wrote.

It didnt have a single scripture anywhere that early states WHEN it occurs unlike the opening post which had a TON of scripture clearly stating not only the when but the how and the why and the who.

All you had were twisted meanings.

Ops post was crystal clear straight from the bible sord for word exposition.

If you did read it you did it with a very closed mind.

Because like most pre tribbers you hear only what you WANT to hear and you know ONLY what you heard.

I knkw this to be true because i know how that mental process works as I was pre trib for a very long time until God opened my eyes.

No person could tell me otherwise no matter how much scripture they proved it with.

Only God can open someones eyes.

Nope......not reading it once, let alone twice.....cause it's a complete waste of time. The rapture is in the middle of the final 7 years. I've already did my own personal study on it in the book of revelation.

No rapture. That's a church Christian thing. Real Christians don't fall for such nonsense.

Skip the doctrines of men and read the Bible.

The "falling away" or "departure" comes first before the man of sin is revealed. But the man of sin is not revealed until the first Seal of Revelation is broken, thus revealing the white horseman of the apocalypse, the Antichrist. This begins the Tribulation.

That means the "departure" will come before the beginning of the Tribulation. There are several different thoughts on what the "departure" is. The Greek word here has a few different meanings within the bible. I think this means the departure of Christians from earth just before the beginning of the Tribulation, when the man of sin is revealed. And this is consistent with some of the meanings found in other places within the bible.

There will be many massacred new believers during the Tribulation, no doubt. And most if not all of them will be massacred because of their uncompromising faith. They will not renounce Christ, and will be beheaded for their stubbornness. And many weak and pretend Christians of that time will give in to the Antichrist and will deny Christ and receive the Mark of the Beast.

But even if Pretribulationism was discovered to be in error, it will not cause a mass loss of faith. You cannot prescribe motives and outcomes to people whom you do not know. You cannot speak for them. If the Tribulation were to begin and we are all still here, then the Pretribulationists will continue searching their bibles for the truth. Then we will search the scriptures even more for signs of a Mid-Trib, or a Pre-Wrath, or the 4 or 5 Post-Trib rapture theories to see which one is more likely to be accurate.

But we will not lose our faith. That's just absurd. If we see the Antichrist confirm a covenant with many as he takes control of the NWO, then that alone will strengthen our faith in the End Times studies, and we will redouble our efforts at discerning the truth of the End Times and our preparations for the Wrath to Come. And we will begin counting the days until our Messiah returns, for we know that exactly 7 biblical years after the revealing of the Antichrist, our Messiah will return.

So the 'losing their faith' argument is really just another false argument.

And if martyrdom comes to us? Accept it with a patient smile, knowing you will soon be with your Savior. And take that as an opportunity to be brave in Christ, and to get a little last forgiveness and preaching in before the guillotine blade falls.

Maranatha!

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Nope......not reading it once, let alone twice.....cause it's a complete waste of time. The rapture is in the middle of the final 7 years. I've already did my own personal study on it in the book of revelation

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And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Did you skip over this verse like the Protestants and Catholics. Or do you just pick and choose verses you like and don't like. Or are you calling God a cruel jokester.?

Studying and teaching the Word are blessings, to others and to oneself. Without studying and teaching there would be a lot more ignorance in the world.

And the bible is not specious garbage. I'm sorry you feel that way.

And many bible students and teachers also feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, and stuff like that.

Why the profanity and the hate? Maybe someday one of them will feed, clothe or heal you.

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My rebuttal was no more conjecture than the OP's jumbles article was. I've never studied Scofield so I'll leave you to your bias there.

The bible says we don't know when the rapture will happen, that's the point. We will know however the exact time of the Second Advent(2nd Coming.) That's the contradiction.

The OP's article is full of misinterpretations, that you seem to also agree with.

The OP's post was far from crystal clear. You seem to be a special fan of his work.

My rebuttal was a word-for-word exposition with Greek word studies thrown in for free.

I did study the OP's post with an open mind to learn new things. It took me about two days to do so. How much time have you spent studying it?

I have studied Classical Dispensationalism, Pre-Millennialism, Amillennialism, Post-Millennialism, Preterism, and a few others. Within Dispensationalism, I have studied Pretribulationism, Partial Rapture Theory, Midtribulationism, Pre-Wrath Theory, and about 4 or 5 different flavors of Posttribulationism. Of all these, I believe Classical Dispensational Pre-Millennial Pretribulationism to be the most likely theology to most accurately understand and reflect the study of the End Times in the bible. You may conclude differently. That's on you.

You don't know anyone except for yourself, maybe. Please don't think you know entire sectors of believers. People are all different on may levels.

I pray that Yahweh will open your eyes. And I also pray that He will show me Truth in all things.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."- 1 Corinthians 13:12

Peace

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Jesus did say he dosent come to unite but to divide. He wasn't kidding. I have never seen so much division in my life. It's obvious that many people are carnally interpreting the bible.